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HamHam
2009-08-26, 01:58 PM
So I need to kill a Solar. At level 10. Luckily, I have various items and lost of money that probably put my actual ECL far higher than this. Like a Hand and Eye of Vecna and a Staff of Power. Also I'm a Wizard so I'm awesome.

And a CL of 19. Possibly 23 if I use prayer beads right before the fight.

My main concern is the Solar's spells and SLAs. Namely the Power Words. Those could really suck if it got the chance to use them. Right now, the best solution I can think of is a Rod of Absorption.

Assuming I can keep it from killing me, me killing it should be pretty easy. With an Assay Spell Resistance I beat it's SR automatically. Split or Empowered Enervations should drop it's saves low enough for a save-or-suck(die) to put it down. Assuming it doesn't have Deathward already up anyway.

Quietus
2009-08-26, 02:15 PM
Dispel Magic, greater or otherwise, can help if it does get Death Wards up.

Mongoose87
2009-08-26, 02:16 PM
Like a Hand and Eye of Vecna and a Staff of Power. Also

Hold out for the Head.

awa
2009-08-26, 02:22 PM
a few candle of invocation would allow you to summons some very powerful creatures of nearly as powerful as the solar itself. with some caster level boosting abbilities you could summon something stronger then the solar.

edit i see you already have a very high caster level with the candle you could summon epic creatures who could probably stomp the solar all by themselves

Johel
2009-08-26, 02:28 PM
Actually, you are screwed.
He can (using Lesser Restoration, Remove curse, ect...) basically cure whatever ability damage you'll attempt and, if you rely too much on Enervation, he has 1 Greater Restoration and can have prepared a few more if he knows you use that spell on a daily basis.

If he's in a happy mood, he'll just dispel whatever you throw at him and then finish you with a "Imprisonnement" (DC 26). Then you'll be judged and sentence for your crimes.

If he just want you dead, he'll fire a few "Dimensional Anchor" to keep you from teleporting, then he'll throw "Summon Monster" at you until you're out of spells. Then "Fire Storm", if you really pissed him off.

Eldariel
2009-08-26, 02:32 PM
If he just want you dead, he'll fire a few "Dimensional Anchor" to keep you from teleporting, then he'll throw "Summon Monster" at you until you're out of spells. Then "Fire Storm", if you really pissed him off.

If you REALLY pissed him off, it's going to be his SpL Wish perhaps coupled with few Miracles erasing your past self (or maybe your Truename) in time causing your present self to cease to exist and people to forget that you ever existed. You will cease and nobody will mourn.

Optimystik
2009-08-26, 02:33 PM
What's your alignment? Because I think a Dictum/Holy Word will screw you.

(I'm guessing you're a bit shady due to all the Vecna stuff.)

Johel
2009-08-26, 02:37 PM
If you REALLY pissed him off, it's going to be his SpL Wish perhaps coupled with few Miracles erasing your past self (or maybe your Truename) in time causing your present self to cease to exist and people to forget that you ever existed. You will cease and nobody will mourn.

...Are...are we still speaking of a "being of pure Law and Good" here ? :smalleek:

FlawedParadigm
2009-08-26, 02:38 PM
Well, I'd see if you can't find a way to forestall fighting it for another seven levels or so, when you can get regular access to Mindrape. That seems to be the popular solution for Solars. Other than that, well...

-Hands you a full set of dice.-

You'll probably be wanting these.

You know, to roll up your next character.

Eldariel
2009-08-26, 02:40 PM
...Are...are we still speaking of a "being of pure Law and Good" here ? :smalleek:

Have you ever seen what Paladins do to creatures truly evil beyond redemption when they get angry? We're talking about that to 10th power here.

Johel
2009-08-26, 02:48 PM
Have you ever seen what Paladins do to creatures truly evil beyond redemption when they get angry? We're talking about that to 10th power here.

Sure. Those are the paladins who dress in black and mourn their fall, right ?

No, seriously, I get what you mean but the part about "You will cease and nobody will mourn." casted the mental image of a angel saying those same words, laughing maniacally while the poor little evil wizard's begging for mercy. Scary and not the image of the duty-bound yet compationate angel I usually have.:smallsmile:

Starscream
2009-08-26, 02:49 PM
If you go the summoning route, make sure that the things you summon are either Epic level or have spells. Solars have DR.

Their arrows always have the Slaying quality, so get yourself a Wind Wall or similar form of protection. I assume that because you are a wizard you will be keeping your distance, so expect arrows.

Optimystik
2009-08-26, 02:50 PM
Sure. Those are the paladins who dress in black and mourn their fall, right ?

No, seriously, I get what you mean but the part about "You will cease and nobody will mourn." casted the mental image of a angel saying those same words, laughing maniacally while the poor little evil wizard's begging for mercy. Scary and not the image of the duty-bound yet compationate angel I usually have.:smallsmile:

If it sounds a bit over the top, that's because it is. Here's the source of that quote:

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/5dn/115.jpg

quick_comment
2009-08-26, 02:52 PM
With a caster level of 23, you are about par with him on dispelling.

But yeah, a single power word will kill you.

How much cheese are you allowed? You can project out of your private demiplane with a scroll.

Claudius Maximus
2009-08-26, 02:55 PM
Death By Thorns paralyzes on a successful save. Get a scroll of it and a big friend with a scythe. Solar touch AC isn't too impressive and SR is apparently not an issue for you, so you only have to worry about Death ward and FoM. There's always the 10% chance that it fails its save, too.

paddyfool
2009-08-26, 02:56 PM
Sure. Those are the paladins who dress in black and mourn their fall, right ?

No, seriously, I get what you mean but the part about "You will cease and nobody will mourn." casted the mental image of a angel saying those same words, laughing maniacally while the poor little evil wizard's begging for mercy. Scary and not the image of the duty-bound yet compationate angel I usually have.:smallsmile:

I could just as easily imagine a Solar recognising that here, in the bearer of a Hand and Eye of Vecna is a truly evil, highly dangerous being, and that the ultimate sanction (death) is necessary. This particular version of the ultimate sanction could, arguably, be described as less cruel than many others, since the Wiz won't be remembered by his loved ones.

lsfreak
2009-08-26, 02:59 PM
Sure. Those are the paladins who dress in black and mourn their fall, right ?

No, seriously, I get what you mean but the part about "You will cease and nobody will mourn." casted the mental image of a angel saying those same words, laughing maniacally while the poor little evil wizard's begging for mercy. Scary and not the image of the duty-bound yet compationate angel I usually have.:smallsmile:

If the person is so evil that they are effectively beyond redemption, how much evil would be undone if they had simply never been? They are being compassionate; by unmaking such as evil you undo the hundreds of slain and thousands to-be-slain and all the pain and suffering caused.

Also, your mental image of angels is different from mine. I picture much more Diablo-style angels, conniving bastards that manipulate the forces of the world in order to crush evil for the greater good.

Johel
2009-08-26, 03:10 PM
If the person is so evil that they are effectively beyond redemption, how much evil would be undone if they had simply never been? They are being compassionate; by unmaking such as evil you undo the hundreds of slain and thousands to-be-slain and all the pain and suffering caused.

Also, your mental image of angels is different from mine. I picture much more Diablo-style angels, conniving bastards that manipulate the forces of the world in order to crush evil for the greater good.

Well... some may be a little manipulative. But the "greater good" usually resulting in unspeakable evils until its completion (That's it, most people aren't happy with the way things are done right now, even if they know there'll be a brighter future), I would expect them to rather uphold the principles of Order and Goodness on a day-to-day basis for mortals to enjoy said principles and follow them out of their own free will ("-A great good is not worth it if a single shaddy act has to be done. So, you'll just die. No reality alteration, mind rape or whatever.") rather than playing it the raw logical but dishearthed way ("-You're evil. These people are evil. Would be more efficient to just wish you out of existance. Your soul ? I don't care about a lone soul. I'll save millions of souls.")

EDIT : a good example might be a episode of "The Justice League : Animated" where 2 alternate versions of Superman clash. The true Superman is Lawful Good at its purest. Sure, he COULD kill the villains. This way, they wouldn't escape (again) and wouldn't cause suffering for countless of innocents. But he doesn't because that would be both illegal and... well... morally grey.
The other ? He's the Knight Templar who prefer logic and efficiency over principles. He goes on to mind-rape most villains, set a planet-wide Big Brother system, put down unrest through raw violence, as "a few casualties are nothing compared to the greater good".

HamHam
2009-08-26, 03:17 PM
Actually, you are screwed.
He can (using Lesser Restoration, Remove curse, ect...) basically cure whatever ability damage you'll attempt and, if you rely too much on Enervation, he has 1 Greater Restoration and can have prepared a few more if he knows you use that spell on a daily basis.

I don't need him to keep them for very long. Just need to get in a solid hit or two in and give him like a -6 to saves and then Viscid Glob DC 27 Reflex save or he can only take mental actions.

This could take as little as two turns:

Turn 1: Assay Spell Resistance. Split Enervation.

Turn 2: Split Enervation. Viscid Glob.


What's your alignment? Because I think a Dictum/Holy Word will screw you.

(I'm guessing you're a bit shady due to all the Vecna stuff.)

True Neutral. I guess I would need to stay more than 40 ft away from him?


How much cheese are you allowed?

Probably a lot.

sofawall
2009-08-26, 03:21 PM
SLAs are mental actions, right? I mean, they don't have any components, verbal or somatic.

Optimystik
2009-08-26, 03:22 PM
True Neutral. I guess I would need to stay more than 40 ft away from him?

Yes, because if he casts either, you are killed instantly, no save. In addition, he can mimic either of them with Miracle even after he uses up any prepared versions.

*.*.*.*
2009-08-26, 03:23 PM
I so wanna play a Solar now, someone needs to do a racial progression for them!

Krrth
2009-08-26, 03:23 PM
I don't need him to keep them for very long. Just need to get in a solid hit or two in and give him like a -6 to saves and then Viscid Glob DC 27 Reflex save or he can only take mental actions.

This could take as little as two turns:

Turn 1: Assay Spell Resistance. Split Enervation.

Turn 2: Split Enervation. Viscid Glob.



True Neutral. I guess I would need to stay more than 40 ft away from him?



Probably a lot.

I'm assuming Viscous Glob is Acid damage, correct? Because if it is, no good.

lsfreak
2009-08-26, 03:23 PM
Oh, they do uphold good. But when there's a particular fanatical paladin who is willing to sacrifice his life for his people, you think they're going to try and convince him that a more down-to-earth approach would be better, or would they say, "Hey! Look! Necromancers!" They're still doing Good, they're still doing Law. They're manipulating the poor sod into risking his life when he could do greater good by saying, "You do it, lazy sods, or at least get me some backup. I'm helping this town rebuild from a bandit raid, I'll do it after I'm sure they're safe."

And as for "beyond redemption," I suppose such a thing doesn't exist in D&D, thanks for Mindrape-but-it's-somehow-good that's in BoED. Also, you're assuming erasing someone from existence is somehow not good. But they never existed, so there is no soul. You're not destroying the soul, not damaging it in any way... it simply isn't. I can easily see that (expanded beyond what I'm going to bother to do here) being a justification.

Elfin
2009-08-26, 03:24 PM
If the person is so evil that they are effectively beyond redemption, how much evil would be undone if they had simply never been? They are being compassionate; by unmaking such as evil you undo the hundreds of slain and thousands to-be-slain and all the pain and suffering caused.


I agree. It's an infinitely better thing than just killing them, and what I'd do if I were a Solar in the same situation.
And as has been said, the Hand and Eye won't help your case much.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-08-26, 03:25 PM
You stand no chance.

Barring cheeze, the wish, 20th-level cleric spells, arrows of slaying, power words, etc, you are doomed.

doomedoomedoomedoomedoomedoomedoomedoomedoomed
doomedoomedoomedoomedoomedoomedoomedoomedoomedoome doomedoomedoomedoomedoomedoomedoomedoomed
doomedoomedoomedoomedoomedoomedoomedoomedoomedoome doomedoomedoomedoomedoomedoomedoomedoomedoomedoome doomedoomedoomedoomedoomedoomedoomedoomedoomedoome doomedoomedoomedoomedoomedoomed

Elfin
2009-08-26, 03:27 PM
No, no chance at all. Solars are freakin' scary.

Eldariel
2009-08-26, 03:30 PM
D&D is actually pretty grim in that it truly enforces the need for such utter and complete destruction since bringing someone back otherwise is so ridiculously easy. I don't think I've ever finished a campaign where we JUST killed the BBEG 'cause we sure as hell don't want to deal with him again (although in the LMG we're playing right now, I guess we don't have much choice).

Imprisonment at the very least, preferably seal him to a Thinaun weapon and Unname. 'cause y'know, most BBEGs have allies outside the struggle with motives and handsome reward for bringing him back to life so at least simple Raise Dead, Resurrection and depending on the availability of scrolls, True Resurrection need to be blocked.


If the Angel wants to end the menace once and for all, that seems to be from the soft end of options to do it.

vanyell
2009-08-26, 03:34 PM
if it is a level 20 cleric on top of all that could it not "sanctify the wicked" on you? that would be an anti-climatic way to go

Douglas
2009-08-26, 03:39 PM
if it is a level 20 cleric on top of all that could it not "sanctify the wicked" on you? that would be an anti-climatic way to go
Yes, it could. If I remember correctly, it could even cast it spontaneously. And it's powerful enough that freeing you before the year is up would be rather difficult.

Mando Knight
2009-08-26, 03:56 PM
Solars can be like an angelic Batman. Goons always get on his bad side, even though he can take them out before they realize he's moving. He'll break every bone in your body if he needs to do so to take you into custody. He could even kill you with little effort. He just doesn't want to. Don't forget that he can, though, because he will if you strip away every other choice. And every other choice is more painful for you than it is for him. Much more painful.

Superglucose
2009-08-26, 04:00 PM
So I need to kill a Solar. At level 10. Luckily, I have various items and lost of money that probably put my actual ECL far higher than this. Like a Hand and Eye of Vecna and a Staff of Power. Also I'm a Wizard so I'm awesome.

And a CL of 19. Possibly 23 if I use prayer beads right before the fight.
Um, it's a Solar. It's a 17th level cleric vs you, at 10th level wizard. Also it has a BAB of 22.



My main concern is the Solar's spells and SLAs. Namely the Power Words. Those could really suck if it got the chance to use them. Right now, the best solution I can think of is a Rod of Absorption.
Actually, you should also be worried about the full attack of +35/+30/+25/+20, each attack for 3d6+18 which comes out to about 12d6+72 damage to your squishy insides.



Assuming I can keep it from killing me, me killing it should be pretty easy. With an Assay Spell Resistance I beat it's SR automatically. Split or Empowered Enervations should drop it's saves low enough for a save-or-suck(die) to put it down. Assuming it doesn't have Deathward already up anyway.
It's a 17th level cleric. It has Deathward up.

Here's how the battle is likely to go down:

It most likely goes first (most 10th level wizards don't have +9 to initiative) and sets its dancing blade to go attack you, since it's smart and wise it probably moves next to you and draws its greatbow. You step back and dispel his deathward. Let's say you've got it (yay for you!). Our friend then full-attacks you at point blank range with his greatbow which allows his dancing greatsword to also full attack.

+28/+23/+18/+13, 2d8+7 *4, four dc20 fort saves vs death, followed by +35/+30/+25/+20 from the greatsword for the afformentioned 3d6+18.

No spells, no nothing. Even if you use "blur" or "displacement" (the one that grants 50% miss chance) you're still talking about 4d8+14 + 6d6+36 + 2 DC20 fort saves vs your, well, 9d4+44 (assuming your nice +4 con) and fort bonus of... +7 (same assumption). Your average HP is 66, his average damage is 89. His MINIMUM is 60 assuming only half of his attacks hit (meaning you have displacement up).

FINALLY you have managed to open him up to ennervation, provided he doesn't take the time to just drop back and rebuff.

If you win initiative and dispel, he can "Invisibility" to get into position to prepare.

Solars are beasts, and in this case he doesn't even need the fact that he is a 17th level cleric, he can just march right in and shove a sword into you while turning you into a pincushion.

So, you say you want to win? Well... if you're not going to register as "strongly evil" then do the following: surrender hard and fast. If you are evil, surrender hard and fast. Diplomance, it's your only option here aside from loading your dice to 20s and your GMs dice to 1s.

EDIT: The point of my post is this: even if you treat a Solar as a "big, dumb fighter" it smears the ground with your ass. It's also a 17th level cleric.

Starscream
2009-08-26, 04:05 PM
I so wanna play a Solar now, someone needs to do a racial progression for them!

Someone requested one once, and pretty much the universal response was "No freakin way". We're talking about a creature that would eventually get plus 90-something to its stats, a score of SLAs, infinite arrows of slaying and still cast as a 20th level cleric.

Even as a Gestalt character it wouldn't work. If you put its cleric class abilities one one side, and everything else on the other, you'd still have something completely unbalanced.

This is the monster that makes good characters stay good. Having them as the enemy is way too scary.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-08-26, 04:05 PM
\Diplomance, it's your only option here aside from loading your dice to 20s and your GMs dice to 1s.

You have the Hand and Eye of Vecna, superb magical prowess...and you haven't gathered any minions? Find something that you can kill, bribe/diplomance/dominate it, and repeat until you have a strike force that will distract the solar long enough for you (or an ally) to drop a save-or-lose.

Eldan
2009-08-26, 04:07 PM
Someone requested one once, and pretty much the universal response was "No freakin way". We're talking about a creature that would eventually get plus 90-something to its stats, a score of SLAs, infinite arrows of slaying and still cast as a 20th level cleric.

And they are still less powerful than their AD&D Planescape version, which, according to the book, could summon The Phoenix (singular) or Elder Titans. Or, as the book put it: "They could be gods, but are humble enough to serve, instead of rule".

Johel
2009-08-26, 04:08 PM
Oh, they do uphold good. But when there's a particular fanatical paladin who is willing to sacrifice his life for his people, you think they're going to try and convince him that a more down-to-earth approach would be better, or would they say, "Hey! Look! Necromancers!" They're still doing Good, they're still doing Law. They're manipulating the poor sod into risking his life when he could do greater good by saying, "You do it, lazy sods, or at least get me some backup. I'm helping this town rebuild from a bandit raid, I'll do it after I'm sure they're safe."

That kind of manipulation makes sence. Though it's not exactly manipulation, since the paladin would probably do it anyway. Just a question of time.


And as for "beyond redemption," I suppose such a thing doesn't exist in D&D, thanks for Mindrape-but-it's-somehow-good that's in BoED. Also, you're assuming erasing someone from existence is somehow not good. But they never existed, so there is no soul. You're not destroying the soul, not damaging it in any way... it simply isn't. I can easily see that (expanded beyond what I'm going to bother to do here) being a justification.

Mind rapes, unwilling personality changes and memory alterations are, on my opinion, pretty non-good things. Won't say "evil" because it will spark an alignement debate. We don't want that.

Now, for wishing out of existance somebody, again, it's rationnal but it's by no way good. I already retype three times this part and still can't explain it without going 4th or 5th dimension but let makes it simple :

Ao's word : all souls are supposed to end up in some afterlife.
Afterlife is pretty easy to delay but, for most, it's eventually unavoidable.
To erase a soul out of existance is easy for an Angel (Wish).
Yet, doing so would deny the soul of the target his lawful right to an afterlife.
To concider the target's soul isn't relevant (because it wouldn't exist in the first place if existance was alterated by a Wish) means all souls are irrelevant, since they could all individually be "erase" in the same way.
If souls are irrelevant, then why bother saving them from that evil guy in the first place ? After all, they are now mere commodities.
Also, while the target caused lot's of evil, as long as he isn't a threath to existance itself, he's just a minor annoyance. **** happens and stuff. Sure, he must be stopped but he's still like any other soul and deserve equal treatment because...hey, it's the Cosmic Law (or something) and it doesn't feel *nice* to just annihilate him.
Angels are Lawful Good so, they must respect both Law and Good.


I really try to explain my thoughts here but that's really difficult to remain clear without getting a confused text waterfall.
CG *could* concider the whole "wish you out of existance" because they aren't as strict on "Universal Rules" than LG are.
NG or LN would maybe also debate about it.
But LG... They got two reasons, the very basis of their existance, not to do so.

lsfreak
2009-08-26, 04:09 PM
Yes, it could. If I remember correctly, it could even cast it spontaneously. And it's powerful enough that freeing you before the year is up would be rather difficult.

The problem being, of course, that there was ways of undoing Mindrape. Like another one. You make it so they never existed, and you a) never did any harm to anyone since a nonexistence can't be harmed and b) make sure that the evil can't come back. And the solar doesn't even have the ethical problem of having killed someone.

EDIT: You're not denying a soul an afterlife by removing it from existence. It doesn't exist. It never existed. It never will exist. It's not a soul. There is nothing there to be denied.

Mando Knight
2009-08-26, 04:10 PM
So, you say you want to win? Well... if you're not going to register as "strongly evil"

He's got the Hand and Eye of Vecna. He registers as "So EVIL that Superman would have no qualms about taking him down." Plus, the Hand and Eye are artifacts that do not want to be destroyed. They'll likely disintegrate you themselves just to get away.

paddyfool
2009-08-26, 04:13 PM
On the other hand, you aren't just fighting A Solar, you're fighting A Solar Controlled By A DM Who Handed You Multiple Artifacts. Come up with something he isn't used to dealing with, and you can maybe still win this.

Of course, if you end up on the receiving end of a sanctify the wicked and have to give up your soul-possessing organs of a godlike lich (how exactly are you still TN, incidentally?) and roleplay as a saintly figure of light, peace, truth, justice and fluffy bunnies, then tough cheese.

Optimystik
2009-08-26, 04:14 PM
I would consider erasing someone's soul with Wish to fall within the "beyond scope" clause; the end result would be for the soles of your shoes to vanish from reality.

I do agree that simply possessing the Vecna doodads would put you on any angel's hit list, particularly if you refuse to turn them over/relinquish them when ordered to do so.

Krrth
2009-08-26, 04:18 PM
Snip


Actually, it's a 20th level cleric. With permanent true seeing up. Which just makes it all the nastier.

Johel
2009-08-26, 04:23 PM
I would consider erasing someone's soul with Wish to fall within the "beyond scope" clause; the end result would be for the soles of your shoes to vanish from reality.

Thank you !! You point something else here :
If the guy never existed in the first place, WE might accidentally erase dozens of other souls, borned from indirect interactions (couples of refugees who met after BBG burned their respective villages...babies now vanish from reality left and right...)

Point is : they are so many consequences to time alteration alone that REALITY alteration (erase somebody which is a current major world player) can cause a lot more harm (in the "other souls, probably innocents, who'll be erased too") than good (a few thousands deads, whose souls are feasting in the afterlife)

Superglucose
2009-08-26, 04:26 PM
:smallredface:

Was thinking of the planetar

Edit: In THAT case, using my plan of attack it'll be swatting at you for 8d8+28 + 12d6 + 72 for that second round which is a minimum of 120 damage and 4 dc20 fort saves vs death. Your max HP assuming a con mod of +4 is 80.

Oh, find a way to get Freedom of Movement or it's all moot because whether or not you win initiative he grapples you at +35. Also he's immune to spells of 3rd level or lower, so you can't use Dispel Magic to take down his buff, and you don't have access to Greater Dispell, so you need a scroll of it.

Really, you have to cast Assay Spell Resistance, THEN you have to cast Dispel Magic, and FINALLY you have to cast your split ennervation.

I don't know who taught you about wizards, but while Wizard 20 is epic, Wizard 10 is significantly less so, and while Wizard 20 is on par with Cleric 20, Wizard 10 is way worse than Cleric 10, let alone Cleric 10 with monk saves and full BAB and permanent lesser globe of invulnurability.

I'm going back to the "load the GMs dice and try to whiteout entire sections of the Solar's entry."

lsfreak
2009-08-26, 04:29 PM
If the guy never existed in the first place, WE might accidentally erase dozens of other souls, borned from indirect interactions (couples of refugees who met after BBG burned their respective villages...babies now vanish from reality left and right...)

And you might do exactly the same by killing him. Or redeeming him. Or imprisoning him. Sure, these souls don't exist (yet). But once you unmake the evil guy, none of those souls will exist either. No harm done.

As for "beyond the scope," it has 1 wish and up to 5 miracles. Burn multiples to get the job done.

(Note that at this point I'm mostly just playing devil's advocate).

Krrth
2009-08-26, 04:33 PM
:smallredface:

Was thinking of the planetar

It's all Good.

To the OP:
Even with the artifact (and did you remember to make your saving throws to avoid becoming evil?), the difference in caster levels is....extreme. Holy Word will quite frankly kill you, NO SAVE, end of line.

Optimystik
2009-08-26, 04:34 PM
As for "beyond the scope," it has 1 wish and up to 5 miracles. Burn multiples to get the job done.

(Note that at this point I'm mostly just playing devil's advocate).

It can't cast Wish without the 5000 spare XP lying around, which as an NPC it probably doesn't have. As for Miracle, no LG deity is going to assist in unmaking a soul, not when other forms of punishment exist.

*.*.*.*
2009-08-26, 04:35 PM
Someone requested one once, and pretty much the universal response was "No freakin way"

Well, someone did do a Balor.....


I understand though, Balors are significantly weaker and it still was an ecl 32

Foryn Gilnith
2009-08-26, 04:37 PM
It can't cast Wish without the 5000 spare XP lying around, which as an NPC it probably doesn't have. As for Miracle, no LG deity is going to assist in unmaking a soul, not when other forms of punishment exist.

Spell-Like abilities don't cost XP. Also, if the solar itself is willing to assist in unmaking a soul, then you can easily find a LG deity willing to assist. Whether the solar is willing to unmake the soul is an alignment argument best avoided.

Starbuck_II
2009-08-26, 04:42 PM
It can't cast Wish without the 5000 spare XP lying around, which as an NPC it probably doesn't have. As for Miracle, no LG deity is going to assist in unmaking a soul, not when other forms of punishment exist.

No, it can cast Wish for free as long as it isn't a spell.

You do know that "A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost."
So he cast them for free.

Yes, for free!

Johel
2009-08-26, 04:42 PM
And you might do exactly the same by killing him. Or redeeming him. Or imprisoning him. Sure, these souls don't exist (yet). But once you unmake the evil guy, none of those souls will exist either. No harm done.

As for "beyond the scope," it has 1 wish and up to 5 miracles. Burn multiples to get the job done.

(Note that at this point I'm mostly just playing devil's advocate).

...you get the point, then. But I'll play along for the sake of argument. :smallsmile:

The souls already exist right now because the BBG exists and was indirectly instrumental in their creations (he's a world major player if Angels bother with him). But if you make a wish to erase the BBG out of existance in a way like he never existed in the first place, you'll also erase ALL souls who already exist because of what he did earlier in his life before the wish.

So, in a way, this wish stole the afterlife and mortal existance of anything between a few dozens and hundred of thousands of people. From an atheist (no such thing in D&D) mortal point of view, it's a genocide. From a "religious" (in the sense "there's an afterlife for souls") point of view, it's one of the worst evil act against Creation itself, as you sentenced perfectly innocent people not only to "non-existance" but to "no eternal reward". Granted a few would have ended up in the lower planes. But for most, they were probably still mere children.

And that's if we deal with a BBG whose age is 100, top. If we deal with a millenium old liche, the effects could basically empty the Upper Planes from several millions of souls, who had deserved their eternal afterlife...and are just now indirectly wished out of existance. All of this to prevent deads ? The victims of the BBG were in the afterlife so their future wasn't that dark...

Starbuck_II
2009-08-26, 04:44 PM
...you get the point, then. But I'll play along for the sake of argument. :smallsmile:

The souls already exist right now because the BBG exists and was indirectly instrumental in their creations (he's a world major player if Angels bother with him). But if you make a wish to erase the BBG out of existance in a way like he never existed in the first place, you'll also erase ALL souls who already exist because of what he did earlier in his life before the wish.

So, in a way, this wish stole the afterlife and mortal existance of anything between a few dozens and hundred of thousands of people. From an atheist (no such thing in D&D) mortal point of view, it's a genocide. From a "religious" (in the sense "there's an afterlife for souls") point of view, it's one of the worst evil act against Creation itself, as you sentenced perfectly innocent people not only to "non-existance" but to "no eternal reward". Granted a few would have ended up in the lower planes. But for most, they were probably still mere children.

And that's if we deal with a BBG whose age is 100, top. If we deal with a millenium old liche, the effects could basically empty the Upper Planes from several millions of souls, who had deserved their eternal afterlife...and are just now indirectly wished out of existance. All of this to prevent deads ? The victims of the BBG were in the afterlife so their future wasn't that dark...

Whoa, whoa, whoa?

How did we go from erasing a dude to everyone that dude met is also erased?

I don't see the connection...

Superglucose
2009-08-26, 04:47 PM
It is true that it rewrites history, but I agree, it doesn't mean everyone ceases to exist. That's absurd.

arguskos
2009-08-26, 04:49 PM
It is true that it rewrites history, but I agree, it doesn't mean everyone ceases to exist. That's absurd.
Everyone that would be generated as a result of the erased person's existence now no longer do exist, nor ever will. A being of Pure Law and Good takes this into account when making such large decisions.

Johel
2009-08-26, 04:50 PM
Whoa, whoa, whoa?

How did we go from erasing a dude to everyone that dude met is also erased?

I don't see the connection...

Let's say your mom and dad lived once in different villages.
Said villages got burned 20 years ago by BBG.
Your parents somehow survived and went seeking refuge (like thousands of others) to the nearest city.
SHADAM !! Love at first side.
9 months later, little Starbuck is born.

20 years later, Starbuck the Wizard wishes the BBG to never have existed so that "nobody will have died from his evil deeds".

Sure, thousands would suddenly come back to life, with alternate life for the past 20 years. But all souls who, somehow thanks to BBG's acts, went to existance during these 20 years, have now been undone.

That's when Starbuck the Wizard vanishes.
If we want to go further, because Starbuck the Wizard never existed, he never did his wish and... and we go 5th dimension and our heads explode while drawing charts. :smallamused:

Superglucose
2009-08-26, 04:57 PM
Everyone that would be generated as a result of the erased person's existence now no longer do exist, nor ever will. A being of Pure Law and Good takes this into account when making such large decisions.
Only true if history is static which is a point of contention.

Also, that means that only children born as a direct influence of an evil lich's interference will cease to exist. Based on what I'm told about this character, he wasn't playing "matchmaker."

But again, as stated before, that is assuming that we allow paradoxes to form. It is quite possible that unwishing will result in no change from the current norm because the unwishing already occured and yeah, in short, time travel exists well outside current normal moral boundaries because we don't know how it will work. DM discretion.

Haven
2009-08-26, 04:58 PM
On souls: I wouldn't assume that the souls are created during conception, I'd assume that they are drawn from somewhere else into the body. So the souls still exist, they just go into different bodies than they would have.

And man, what is it with this forum and matches they should not be fighting lately? "My level 10 character vs a Solar," "My non-epic PCs versus the Lady of Pain," "I'm thinking of playing a Monk." :smalltongue:

Glimbur
2009-08-26, 04:59 PM
It is true that it rewrites history, but I agree, it doesn't mean everyone ceases to exist. That's absurd.

It's at the same time completely true and rather disingenuous. If you accept that each person is the way they are because of every experience they have had up to that point, and someone with different experiences is a different person, it's true. If you had chosen to eat a hot dog instead of a hamburger for lunch seven years ago, you would be a different person now. The non-existence of the particular person means that a ripple of change would spread through to everyone who ever interacted with them to people that were affected by him second hand to.... everyone.

On the flip side, you can't claim to have unmade all those people without also claiming to be making slightly different people; really the same people with different experiences. That's why I said it was disingenuous; it does make people as they are now not quite exist, but they still exist in some form.

Superglucose
2009-08-26, 05:01 PM
Even then, it's still a question of "how does time travel work in this regard?" Philosophers have all kinds of nice theories, but in the end it's really GM discretion.

Johel
2009-08-26, 05:01 PM
Only true if history is static which is a point of contention.

Also, that means that only children born as a direct influence of an evil lich's interference will cease to exist. Based on what I'm told about this character, he wasn't playing "matchmaker."

Not even saying History is static. It just mean OUR History will then be affected, while other parallel reality might not been. But again, that's taking it a bit too far and even Angels would need several sanity checks before thinking about it. Much more easy for some pantheons to say "-No Time travel, no large-scale time messup !! Get it ?!"

And it's not "direct" influence so much as "without that jerk, I wouldn't have left my village that day".

Superglucose
2009-08-26, 05:02 PM
And it's not "direct" influence so much as "without that jerk, I wouldn't have left my village that day".

Ah but you don't *know* that! Perhaps he would've found some other reason to leave his village that day and found the same woman and fallen the same level of in love with her.

Claudius Maximus
2009-08-26, 05:04 PM
There are several problems with this whole "Retgone" wish. First of all, what gives any of you the impression that a wish can do that? Or a miracle? Or even Alter Reality? AFAIK there is no ability that can do this.

Assuming such an ability exists (say the DM made it or something), there are still a lot of problems and time paradoxes. If the Lich who prompted you to cast the Retgone spell no longer exists or ever did, then you would never have cast it at all.

Johel
2009-08-26, 05:06 PM
Ah but you don't *know* that! Perhaps he would've found some other reason to leave his village that day and found the same woman and fallen the same level of in love with her.

Not going into biological details here but :
Same egg, same spermatozoid ? :smalltongue:

Unless it's destiny and in this case, BBG was destined to be wished out of existance and the past 20 years were just some kind of prank from the gods wishing to waste time and take it back later... not *LG* gods !!


There are several problems with this whole "Retgone" wish. First of all, what gives any of you the impression that a wish can do that? Or a miracle? Or even Alter Reality? AFAIK there is no ability that can do this.

Assuming such an ability exists (say the DM made it or something), there are still a lot of problems and time paradoxes. If the Lich who prompted you to cast the Retgone spell no longer exists or ever did, then you would never have cast it at all.

See beginning of the thread. A nice picture with a quote. That's what sparked the whole "wish you out of existance. Nobody'll mourn cause nobody ever did know you...since you never existed. *evil laugh*"

You are probably right for the "Wish" spell but it's fun reflecting about things like that.

Your example, while creating time paradox, isn't a problem for the wisher : both ways, the Lich never existed. Only main difference is 5.000 XP for him (oh...and maybe the fact that his dad never banged his mother and so...).

Starbuck_II
2009-08-26, 07:13 PM
Let's say your mom and dad lived once in different villages.
Said villages got burned 20 years ago by BBG.
Your parents somehow survived and went seeking refuge (like thousands of others) to the nearest city.
SHADAM !! Love at first side.
9 months later, little Starbuck is born.

20 years later, Starbuck the Wizard wishes the BBG to never have existed so that "nobody will have died from his evil deeds".

Sure, thousands would suddenly come back to life, with alternate life for the past 20 years. But all souls who, somehow thanks to BBG's acts, went to existance during these 20 years, have now been undone.

That's when Starbuck the Wizard vanishes.
If we want to go further, because Starbuck the Wizard never existed, he never did his wish and... and we go 5th dimension and our heads explode while drawing charts. :smallamused:

Your right, Starbuck the Cleric does it for him. :smallbiggrin:

Granted, I could have transformed into a Truenamer if I was really unlucky.




[QUOTE=Claudius Maximus;6803328]
Assuming such an ability exists (say the DM made it or something), there are still a lot of problems and time paradoxes. If the Lich who prompted you to cast the Retgone spell no longer exists or ever did, then you would never have cast it at all.

Unname (Truename Wizard spell)?
You cease to exist. (though it doesn't erase past).

Optimystik
2009-08-26, 07:26 PM
Unname (Truename Wizard spell)?
You cease to exist. (though it doesn't erase past).

I'm glad you mentioned Unname, because this gives us an idea of how bloody unlikely Wishing for this sort of thing would be. First of all, Unname is a 9th level spell, so that alone should put it outside the bounds of what Wish can duplicate easily. Two, SR applies. Three, fort negates. And most importantly, the solar would need to know his truename, AND THEN it would have to succeed on a truespeak check to say the damn thing properly (DC 35 for the level 10 character.) Not happening. And all that is just to erase them from the present. So using Wish to trying to do something even more powerful than that would definitely fall outside the bounds of reason, and definitely call for perversion of the spell.

woodenbandman
2009-08-26, 07:35 PM
Solars have Miracle AND Wish. Your argument is invalid.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-08-26, 07:42 PM
Dude, stop thinking small...

1 LE Candle of Invocation

Use it to Gate in a Pit Fiend

"Hey, dude. I'm gonna go shank me a Solar, wanna come help? Got any friends who want to join in the fun?"

Seriously, there's lots of things out there that would love nothing more than to help you kill a Solar. I said Pit Fiend because a Balor would be just as likely to kill you after killing the Solar, wheras a Pit Fiend is at least Lawful enough to abide by any conditions of the agreement, although he may twist them to suit his needs. Then again, killing a Solar is pretty much his iconic view of a Good Time, so hey... probably gonna not do to bad to you since you are basically asking him to do what he wants to do anyways.

Superglucose
2009-08-26, 07:48 PM
Solar >> Pitfiend.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-08-26, 07:50 PM
Solar >> Pitfiend.

By himself? Yes. In conjunction with the aforementioned wizard twinked out with a pair of major artifacts? Perhaps not. It would at least distract the Solar whilst you sneak up behind with Reach Empowered Chill Touch...

If nothing else, the Blasphemy and Greater Dispel Magic at will effects will be most unpleasant for the Solar.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-08-26, 07:59 PM
Solars have Miracle AND Wish. Your argument is invalid.

Whose argument is invalid, and would you care to shed the slightest bit of light on the connection between your premise (solars have miracle and wish) and your conclusions?

lsfreak
2009-08-26, 08:05 PM
Whose argument is invalid, and would you care to shed the slightest bit of light on the connection between your premise (solars have miracle and wish) and your conclusions?

Solars have enough power to overcome the meager problem of not being able to replicate a Truename effect with a single Wish. Because they can burn a Wish and a few Miracles to duplicate it.

Green Bean
2009-08-26, 08:08 PM
By himself? Yes. In conjunction with the aforementioned wizard twinked out with a pair of major artifacts? Perhaps not. It would at least distract the Solar whilst you sneak up behind with Reach Empowered Chill Touch...

If nothing else, the Blasphemy and Greater Dispel Magic at will effects will be most unpleasant for the Solar.

Of course, if the Solar finds out, it's certain to bring along some reinforcements. And Balors aren't stupid, so they'll bring some buddies along. And the Solar may very well have Gate prepared, so he can open a portal to the local angelic garrison. And every Balor can summon an additional Balor, which can in turn summon yet another one. And that many demons in one place in the Prime would certainly attract the attention of various Epic Good guys, not to mention the higher ranks in Celestia. Which in turn would be noticed by the powers that be in the Abyss (not to mention the Hells).

Long story short, you end up as Franz Ferdinand in Blood War II: Electric Boogaloo. :smalltongue:

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-26, 08:11 PM
Of course, if the Solar finds out, it's certain to bring along some reinforcements. And Balors aren't stupid, so they'll bring some buddies along. And the Solar may very well have Gate prepared, so he can open a portal to the local angelic garrison. And every Balor can summon an additional Balor, which can in turn summon yet another one. And that many demons in one place in the Prime would certainly attract the attention of various Epic Good guys, not to mention the higher ranks in Celestia. Which in turn would be noticed by the powers that be in the Abyss (not to mention the Hells).

Long story short, you end up as Franz Ferdinand in Blood War II: Electric Boogaloo. :smalltongue:

Sounds like a plan to me. If you got to go, take a section of reality with you?

sofawall
2009-08-26, 08:14 PM
Of course, if the Solar finds out, it's certain to bring along some reinforcements. And Balors aren't stupid, so they'll bring some buddies along. And the Solar may very well have Gate prepared, so he can open a portal to the local angelic garrison. And every Balor can summon an additional Balor, which can in turn summon yet another one. And that many demons in one place in the Prime would certainly attract the attention of various Epic Good guys, not to mention the higher ranks in Celestia. Which in turn would be noticed by the powers that be in the Abyss (not to mention the Hells).

Long story short, you end up as Franz Ferdinand in Blood War II: Electric Boogaloo. :smalltongue:

There be a rule against that.

HamHam
2009-08-26, 08:16 PM
I don't really plan on giving it a fair fight you know. The situation is pretty much as optimal as it could be. AFAIK it's stuck sitting around in the last room of the dungeon guarding some stupid macguffin that we need so we can prepare as much as necessary and then scry and port and go in guns blazing and kill it before it can act.

I've considered simply getting a scroll of Time Walk, but I would also need some way to Delay my spells which may or may not be workable given the amount of gold we have on hand.

Candles of Invocation are an interesting idea. Seems a bit too cheesy though. Or at least... not personal enough.

Here's an idea: We also have a Mirror of Mental Prowess and a Mirror of Opposition. I could open a portal to the Solar's location with the former and start sending summons through until it dies or uses up enough spells that we can just waltz in and finish the job. If it goes through the portal on it's side, it walks smack dab into the Mirror of Opposition and now has to fight it's evil twin.

Starbuck_II
2009-08-26, 08:17 PM
Of course, if the Solar finds out, it's certain to bring along some reinforcements. And Balors aren't stupid, so they'll bring some buddies along. And the Solar may very well have Gate prepared, so he can open a portal to the local angelic garrison. And every Balor can summon an additional Balor, which can in turn summon yet another one. And that many demons in one place in the Prime would certainly attract the attention of various Epic Good guys, not to mention the higher ranks in Celestia. Which in turn would be noticed by the powers that be in the Abyss (not to mention the Hells).

Long story short, you end up as Franz Ferdinand in Blood War II: Electric Boogaloo. :smalltongue:

Summoned Creatures can't summon.
Called Creatures can summon.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-08-26, 08:18 PM
Of course, if the Solar finds out, it's certain to bring along some reinforcements. And Balors aren't stupid, so they'll bring some buddies along. And the Solar may very well have Gate prepared, so he can open a portal to the local angelic garrison. And every Balor can summon an additional Balor, which can in turn summon yet another one. And that many demons in one place in the Prime would certainly attract the attention of various Epic Good guys, not to mention the higher ranks in Celestia. Which in turn would be noticed by the powers that be in the Abyss (not to mention the Hells).

Long story short, you end up as Franz Ferdinand in Blood War II: Electric Boogaloo. :smalltongue:

And in the ensuing chaos caused by the war between the Heavens and the Hells, you Teleport away, safe and sound while that section of reality over there gets turned into The Ultimate Showdown (sans Chuck Norris).

woodenbandman
2009-08-26, 08:27 PM
Whose argument is invalid, and would you care to shed the slightest bit of light on the connection between your premise (solars have miracle and wish) and your conclusions?

Everyone's argument is invalid. That was just a general statement of "Solars use wish as a spell-like ability and cast spells as a 20th level cleric." You'd have to overcome the Solar in 1 round or he just plane shifts away and comes back with the entire heavenly choir. While casting Miracle a bunch and generally owning everything. So you basically have to sneak up on the solar and get surprise round, which is impossible because he has continual detect evil (which you are if you're killing a solar), and true seeing, and probably some other stuff and you have to overcome his regeneration and damage reduction enough to kill him. Not to mention that he has genius intelligence and his presence is probably monitored by the upper heavens.

In a straight slugfest, then yeah, you might defeat a solar, but not in the context of a game world.

Thrawn183
2009-08-26, 08:30 PM
Man, I would have expected solars and pit fiends to have signed some kind of non-aggression treaty so long as demons are still around.

If there was any group that I would think wouldn't have the energy to spare on Solars it would be devils.

HamHam
2009-08-26, 08:35 PM
Everyone's argument is invalid. That was just a general statement of "Solars use wish as a spell-like ability and cast spells as a 20th level cleric." You'd have to overcome the Solar in 1 round or he just plane shifts away and comes back with the entire heavenly choir.

If he leaves for that long, we'll just grab the thing and teleport out.


So you basically have to sneak up on the solar and get surprise round, which is impossible because he has continual detect evil (which you are if you're killing a solar)

Not evil (yet).


you have to overcome his regeneration and damage reduction enough to kill him.

That's why I'm leaning toward save-or-dies.

Epinephrine
2009-08-26, 08:53 PM
Not evil (yet).

I disagree. You're planning the assassination of a force of good, while employing artifacts of evil. That's not neutral behaviour.

Also, since he's a solar, he'll have the place defended with spells.

I'd assume a Hallow with a spell linked to it (Dsipel Magic, most likely, affecting those not of his alignment?), several symbols keyed to go off when non-good creatures look at them (permanent, most likely), a Greater Glyph of Warding, etc.

There's no way he's just standing there.

And there's no way you can teleport in and not get blasted by the defensive stuff he'll have up. Your DM is not playing a Solar right if you can.

Krrth
2009-08-26, 08:55 PM
I disagree. You're planning the assassination of a force of good, while employing artifacts of evil. That's not neutral behaviour.

Not to mention that even if for some reason the character isn't evil, the hand of Vecna IS.

Evil enough to have the Solar notice you before you enter the room.

HamHam
2009-08-26, 09:07 PM
I disagree. You're planning the assassination of a force of good, while employing artifacts of evil. That's not neutral behaviour.

We need the thing he's guarding to save the world. For some reason he refuses to let us have it even though the LG member of the party explained the situation and pointed out that one of the lords of Celestia had given him a holy quest to collect the things and save the world.

I'm not really sure what the Solar's problem is, but I also don't care. He's between us and saving the world and he's gonna get toasted (which should just banish him from the Material plane anyway AFAIK).


Also, since he's a solar, he'll have the place defended with spells.

Apparently not since we walked into the place once already without anything happening.

Milskidasith
2009-08-26, 09:10 PM
Maybe it's just the DM not playing the solar like a force of pure law and good... but not finding the fact you have incredibly evil artifacts questionable enough to capture you seems... odd.

Krrth
2009-08-26, 09:15 PM
We need the thing he's guarding to save the world. For some reason he refuses to let us have it even though the LG member of the party explained the situation and pointed out that one of the lords of Celestia had given him a holy quest to collect the things and save the world.

I'm not really sure what the Solar's problem is, but I also don't care. He's between us and saving the world and he's gonna get toasted (which should just banish him from the Material plane anyway AFAIK).



Apparently not since we walked into the place once already without anything happening.

...You do know the Solar doesn't have to be Lawful right? It may not even be from Celestia.

lsfreak
2009-08-26, 09:16 PM
We need the thing he's guarding to save the world. For some reason he refuses to let us have it even though the LG member of the party explained the situation and pointed out that one of the lords of Celestia had given him a holy quest to collect the things and save the world.

That's the first clue that things aren't as they seem. I'd consider that the guy from Celestia is playing you for a fool, or the solar isn't really a solar.

HamHam
2009-08-26, 09:17 PM
...You do know the Solar doesn't have to be Lawful right? It may not even be from Celestia.

Preventing us from saving the world is not a good act.

Milskidasith
2009-08-26, 09:18 PM
And carrying and using evil artifacts shouldn't leave your character at TN, but that doesn't seem to have stopped you, has it?:smallwink:

Krrth
2009-08-26, 09:19 PM
Preventing us from saving the world is not a good act.

Perhaps, perhaps not. If you save the world and destroy the multiverse, they destroying the world is the better act.

Or, perhaps you won't really save the world.

Or, perhaps the Solar is really Chaotic Good, and thinks that using the artifact isn't necessary.

Or, maybe it's not a Solar.

Or, as we ran into once, the Solar could have been gated in and geased.

HamHam
2009-08-26, 09:21 PM
And carrying and using evil artifacts shouldn't leave your character at TN, but that doesn't seem to have stopped you, has it?:smallwink:

It gives you a save every week. So far I've made the saves.

Krrth
2009-08-26, 09:24 PM
It gives you a save every week. So far I've made the saves.

I don't have my book in front of me, but you might want to check on that. I seem to recall having both the hand and the eye of vecna makes it near impossible to save, if it allows one at all.


edit: It occurred to me: Why would the Solar believe anything you said? You're carrying two of the most evil artifacts available.

HamHam
2009-08-26, 09:28 PM
I don't have my book in front of me, but you might want to check on that. I seem to recall having both the hand and the eye of vecna makes it near impossible to save, if it allows one at all.

Nah, just increases the DC from 17 to 23. I have like a +17 or something so I need a 6 or better.

Milskidasith
2009-08-26, 09:29 PM
It gives you a save every week. So far I've made the saves.

That's for carrying the artifacts, isn't it? Even if you are carrying them and not using them, you need a save. Actually using the artifacts to attempt to kill a solar means that your character clearly has no problem being fueled by the power of pure evil.

lsfreak
2009-08-26, 09:31 PM
There's also the possibility that the force in Celestia is actually evil (see Pelor the Burning Hate) and playing you to bring about the end of the world. It wasn't this force in Celestia that had you get the Vecnan relics, was it?

Save for both artifacts of Vecna is only DC23, which at level 10 is nontrivial but still passable.

Corwin Weber
2009-08-26, 09:31 PM
I don't have my book in front of me, but you might want to check on that. I seem to recall having both the hand and the eye of vecna makes it near impossible to save, if it allows one at all.


edit: It occurred to me: Why would the Solar believe anything you said? You're carrying two of the most evil artifacts available.

I find myself having to agree with whoever said he should hold out for the head.

Krrth
2009-08-26, 09:32 PM
I edited my earlier post, but since we're on a new page I'll put it here:


Why would the Solar believe anything your party says? You're carrying (using) two of the most evil artifacts available.

The Solar should have Holy Worded the entire party as soon as you were within range.

HamHam
2009-08-26, 09:37 PM
edit: It occurred to me: Why would the Solar believe anything you said? You're carrying two of the most evil artifacts available.

He doesn't have to believe me, but he should believe the LG exalted warforged saint.


That's for carrying the artifacts, isn't it?

No?


There's also the possibility that the force in Celestia is actually evil (see Pelor the Burning Hate) and playing you to bring about the end of the world. It wasn't this force in Celestia that had you get the Vecnan relics, was it?

We found them in a previous dungeon.

Though we kind of are working for a Lich King.

But Tiamat, Gruumish, Orcus, and Demagorgon are all fighting over who gets to ravage the planet at the moment and we need this thing to banish them so the situation is kind of exceptional.

Krrth
2009-08-26, 09:40 PM
He doesn't have to believe me, but he should believe the LG exalted warforged saint.



No?



We found them in a previous dungeon.

Though we kind of are working for a Lich King.

But Tiamat, Gruumish, Orcus, and Demagorgon are all fighting over who gets to ravage the planet at the moment and we need this thing to banish them so the situation is kind of exceptional.

Um....you do realize that even being in the same party as you makes him lose that Exalted status, right?

Milskidasith
2009-08-26, 09:42 PM
So you are working for a lich king, using evil artifacts (which is an evil act, even if you make the weekly save to not become evil just from the pure evil of the artifacts themselves), and expect a being of pure law and good to care what a warforged who associates with you says? Honestly, anybody willingly associating with somebody willingly using artifacts of Vecna is a bit iffy on the good axis.

Kylarra
2009-08-26, 09:44 PM
He doesn't have to believe me, but he should believe the LG exalted warforged saint.



Though we kind of are working for a Lich King.



lol. :smalltongue:

and for some reason he hasn't fallen.

Milskidasith
2009-08-26, 09:47 PM
Well, this is going to turn into the "how much EXP do my PCs get for destroying sigil?" thread.

You aren't playing by the rules, so it's impossible for us to help you out. An exalted saint warforged (what DM even allows the saint template as written, anyway? It's overpowered to the max), working for a lich king with a guy who willingly uses two artifacts so evil just carrying them corrupts minds, talking with a solar who isn't killing them instantly and, in fact, doesn't even care that you have such artifacts or have any defenses against evil set up.

None of that makes any sense by the normal rules, so I can only assume if your DM wants you to kill a solar, you are going to kill that solar by railroading.

Kylarra
2009-08-26, 09:54 PM
Well, this is going to turn into the "how much EXP do my PCs get for destroying sigil?" thread.

You aren't playing by the rules, so it's impossible for us to help you out. An exalted saint warforged (what DM even allows the saint template as written, anyway? It's overpowered to the max), working for a lich king with a guy who willingly uses two artifacts so evil just carrying them corrupts minds, talking with a solar who isn't killing them instantly and, in fact, doesn't even care that you have such artifacts or have any defenses against evil set up.

None of that makes any sense by the normal rules, so I can only assume if your DM wants you to kill a solar, you are going to kill that solar by railroading.Aw, fun spoiler. :smalltongue:

Epinephrine
2009-08-26, 10:32 PM
...
None of that makes any sense by the normal rules, so I can only assume if your DM wants you to kill a solar, you are going to kill that solar by railroading.

Exactly. A 10th level wizard can't kill a Solar who really is guarding something, because it's going to bother putting pretty much every symbol spell in the area around it, set to go off when evil creatures come (it may well key some against non-good creatures, the weaker ones, like fear and stunning - just to ensure it has time to prepare).

It would obviously put up a Forbiddance, to prevent people teleporting in to grab whatever it is guarding; that right there will be enough to stop you porting in to attack it. Merely entering the area without its permission would cause damage from the forbiddance (12d6 of it, most likely), not to mention anything else it might have set up for those who would invade (I'm sure it also would have warnings to prevent innocents getting hurt. A few lesser planar allies or something would solve that nicely).

The point that Milskidasith and others are trying to make is that this isn't feasible, not played with a Solar actually using its 23 Intelligence, humongous spellcasting, and natural abilities, and taking its task seriously. It's not stupid.

Even a solar that was dropped repeatedly on its head as a cherub would have something prepared for the first idiot to try to attack him.

Elfin
2009-08-26, 10:44 PM
Well, this is going to turn into the "how much EXP do my PCs get for destroying sigil?" thread.

You aren't playing by the rules, so it's impossible for us to help you out. An exalted saint warforged (what DM even allows the saint template as written, anyway? It's overpowered to the max), working for a lich king with a guy who willingly uses two artifacts so evil just carrying them corrupts minds, talking with a solar who isn't killing them instantly and, in fact, doesn't even care that you have such artifacts or have any defenses against evil set up.

None of that makes any sense by the normal rules, so I can only assume if your DM wants you to kill a solar, you are going to kill that solar by railroading.

This, completely.

Corwin Weber
2009-08-26, 11:28 PM
Well, this is going to turn into the "how much EXP do my PCs get for destroying sigil?" thread.

You aren't playing by the rules, so it's impossible for us to help you out. An exalted saint warforged (what DM even allows the saint template as written, anyway? It's overpowered to the max), working for a lich king with a guy who willingly uses two artifacts so evil just carrying them corrupts minds, talking with a solar who isn't killing them instantly and, in fact, doesn't even care that you have such artifacts or have any defenses against evil set up.

None of that makes any sense by the normal rules, so I can only assume if your DM wants you to kill a solar, you are going to kill that solar by railroading.

Now now.... it wouldn't be all that hard to destroy Sigil....

...Her Serenity, on the other hand...... that's another story. And she'd likely be reasonably annoyed if you actually did it. This would be a Very Bad Thing(tm).

Optimystik
2009-08-27, 12:00 AM
Solars have enough power to overcome the meager problem of not being able to replicate a Truename effect with a single Wish. Because they can burn a Wish and a few Miracles to duplicate it.

The Miracles are useless here as I've said, because no LG deity is going to help a Solar erase a soul from reality.

Which leaves the Wish. Which will remove the guy's shoes.


Well, this is going to turn into the "how much EXP do my PCs get for destroying sigil?" thread.

You aren't playing by the rules, so it's impossible for us to help you out. An exalted saint warforged (what DM even allows the saint template as written, anyway? It's overpowered to the max), working for a lich king with a guy who willingly uses two artifacts so evil just carrying them corrupts minds, talking with a solar who isn't killing them instantly and, in fact, doesn't even care that you have such artifacts or have any defenses against evil set up.

None of that makes any sense by the normal rules, so I can only assume if your DM wants you to kill a solar, you are going to kill that solar by railroading.

You, sirrah, win all my internets.

Corwin Weber
2009-08-27, 12:02 AM
You, sirrah, win all my internets.

Oh yeah, this too. :)

quick_comment
2009-08-27, 12:07 AM
The Miracles are useless here as I've said, because no LG deity is going to help a Solar erase a soul from reality.


Heroionus has already done that in the past. He teamed up with Hextor to destroy one of their servants so throughly that he had no afterlife and became a vestige.

Sir Homeslice
2009-08-27, 12:13 AM
Well, this is going to turn into the "how much EXP do my PCs get for destroying sigil?" thread.

You aren't playing by the rules, so it's impossible for us to help you out. An exalted saint warforged (what DM even allows the saint template as written, anyway? It's overpowered to the max), working for a lich king with a guy who willingly uses two artifacts so evil just carrying them corrupts minds, talking with a solar who isn't killing them instantly and, in fact, doesn't even care that you have such artifacts or have any defenses against evil set up.

None of that makes any sense by the normal rules, so I can only assume if your DM wants you to kill a solar, you are going to kill that solar by railroading.

How's that pedestal? I hear it can get chilly this time of year.

The Glyphstone
2009-08-27, 12:18 AM
How's that pedestal? I hear it can get chilly this time of year.

Crowded, I believe, since there's a good number of us up on it by now.

Seriously, this is honestly, way beyond RAW/tactics at this point. There's no way a level 10, even sporting the Hand and Eye, can beat even a mediocre solar, which means your DM is intending for you to win in some way other than straight-up combat. Whether that's by having you trick it, evade it, or just a Deus Ex Machina is uncertain, but you can rest easy that you will beat it.

Haven
2009-08-27, 12:44 AM
Now now.... it wouldn't be all that hard to destroy Sigil....

...Her Serenity, on the other hand...... that's another story. And she'd likely be reasonably annoyed if you actually did it. This would be a Very Bad Thing(tm).

Well, the buildings are all normal buildings...but there are lots of fiends and angels and crap around. You know what happens in Sigil when you just end up trying to burn down everything? A bunch of random low-level wizards gang up, turn your boop into a living conduit to Fire, and make a theme restaurant bar around you.

Optimystik
2009-08-27, 01:00 AM
Heroionus has already done that in the past. He teamed up with Hextor to destroy one of their servants so throughly that he had no afterlife and became a vestige.

Putting aside the fact that Hextor is LE and so the very idea of what you just described is contradictory, a vestige still exists in some form. What freak was proposing was for the solar to obliterate this person down to other's memories of him.

And thank you for supporting my point. If it took TWO gods to do something that STILL managed to fall short of the proposed solution, there's no way for a Solar to accomplish it solo, even if he - how was it? - "burns Miracles."

quick_comment
2009-08-27, 01:03 AM
Putting aside the fact that Hextor is LE and so the very idea of what you just described is contradictory, a vestige still exists in some form. What freak was proposing was for the solar to obliterate this person down to other's memories of him.

And thank you for supporting my point. If it took TWO gods to do something that STILL managed to fall short of the proposed solution, there's no way for a Solar to accomplish it solo, even if he - how was it? - "burns Miracles."

Hextor and Heronious were assigned to guard their mother's arms and armor. They let their faithful servent talk them into letting him guard it. He stole the armor and ran off. The gods went to hunt him down, but when they found him, he was invincible due to the armor. Heronious starting throwing lightning at him, while Hextor went to steal their mother's bow. Hextor filled the servant with arrows, then the two gods took his soul and banished it to the places the vestiges go, which is basically the boundary between existance and oblivion.

Optimystik
2009-08-27, 01:22 AM
Hextor and Heronious were assigned to guard their mother's arms and armor. They let their faithful servent talk them into letting him guard it. He stole the armor and ran off. The gods went to hunt him down, but when they found him, he was invincible due to the armor. Heronious starting throwing lightning at him, while Hextor went to steal their mother's bow. Hextor filled the servant with arrows, then the two gods took his soul and banished it to the places the vestiges go, which is basically the boundary between existance and oblivion.

Oh right, that guy from Tome of Magic. Savnok, or whatever his name was. But as I said before, his soul still exists, so even the wrath of two gods wasn't enough to erase him.

quick_comment
2009-08-27, 01:25 AM
Oh right, that guy from Tome of Magic. Savnok, or whatever his name was. But as I said before, his soul still exists, so even the wrath of two gods wasn't enough to erase him.

His soul is trapped in a place of eternal torment. He half exists, and only as a semi-aware damaged soul. Erasing him from history would be a blessing

Corwin Weber
2009-08-27, 01:56 AM
Well, the buildings are all normal buildings...but there are lots of fiends and angels and crap around. You know what happens in Sigil when you just end up trying to burn down everything? A bunch of random low-level wizards gang up, turn your boop into a living conduit to Fire, and make a theme restaurant bar around you.

Yeah but he was only what, level 10-15?

Three words: Epic Spell Slots.

:)

Let's face it, there's at least one core epic spell that simulates the effects of a small tactical nuke. An epic spellcaster could potentially scour that place clean.

....well except for a few dabus and one seriously pissed off overdeity/universal force/whatever she is.

** edit ** Oh, and the razorvine. Forgot about that. Even epic magic can't kill that stuff. ** edit **

While it would be possible to do the former.... I'm still thinking that the latter would end up posing at least a slight.... problem. :)

But then for that matter she could potentially flay/maze you before you could get any epic spells cast. I suppose whether it worked or not would depend on how annoyed she was at the Sigilians at the moment. :)

Kylarra
2009-08-27, 01:58 AM
Three words: Epic Spell Slots.

There's no point in bringing epic spells into any discussion really.

Bob the Urgh
2009-08-27, 02:21 AM
how do you have a +17 will save at level 10? You lose 2 points of wisdom for having both the eye and hand.

Johel
2009-08-27, 04:22 AM
He doesn't have to believe me, but he should believe the LG exalted warforged saint.

Thought of an Angel :
If said Saint travel with the owner of THE hand of the Vecna and THE eye of Vecna, he is either corrupted but not evil yet OR really stupid and manipulated by the owner.

This aside, I agree with Krrt and the others :
Your party is confronted to something that's not from the Upper Planes.
Either it's the "fake Solar" thing or it's the "fake Lords of Celestia".
Or you GM was lazy when he gave you the artifacts cheese and now is trying to get them back in the same lazier fashion ("-Need a TPK ? Go über angel.")

Starshade
2009-08-27, 05:43 AM
Hmm, my thought is to aquire help of a ally of your in Celestia, as using spells to contact your quest giver there, and ask for some ally as mediator between your party and the stubborn solar, as a Lantern Archon.

Reason for my suggestion: a lantern archon isnt dangerous looking for a solar, not any real solar anyway. You can summon it, and if you ask nice, you could get to summon by name a ally of your quest giver who can vouch for your cause.
Its also not evil. If the holder of Hand of Vecna actually summons hordes of Devils to kill a Solar, he'd not stay non evil long. :smallamused:

Corwin Weber
2009-08-27, 08:45 PM
There's no point in bringing epic spells into any discussion really.

Why not? They exist, they're core.

I mean we're talking about a tenth level character that has the Hand and Eye of Vecna for FSM's sake. And epic spells are a problem?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Kylarra
2009-08-27, 08:54 PM
Why not? They exist, they're core.

I mean we're talking about a tenth level character that has the Hand and Eye of Vecna for FSM's sake. And epic spells are a problem?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Because by RAW epic spells can be cheesed ad infinitum and thus you can have your "unstoppable" "I win button" at level 21. Thus done and done.

So yeah, not worth bringing up.

Myrmex
2009-08-27, 08:59 PM
And in the ensuing chaos caused by the war between the Heavens and the Hells, you Teleport away, safe and sound while that section of reality over there gets turned into The Ultimate Showdown (sans Chuck Norris).

No; we gated him too.

Starbuck_II
2009-08-27, 09:09 PM
His soul is trapped in a place of eternal torment. He half exists, and only as a semi-aware damaged soul. Erasing him from history would be a blessing

Agreed. If he was erased he wouldn't be stuck in the Nothing (yes from Never Ending Story 2).
Instead he can never go to a paradise.

He wants life so badly that gives up his powers to any junkie who wants a power fix. Just for 1 day of semi-life in our world.

He will even do it to a guy who blinds his senses (hides the seal/sign). Just the thought he might be home again is enough.

Kallisti
2009-08-27, 09:30 PM
I definitely agree with the people who have said that this whole situation makes no sense and your DM is clearly either planning for you to kill the solar with the Sword of Plot Contrivance +13, but since you asked the question I'll answer it, and pretend that this is just a thought experiment to silence the (large) part of me that is currently reciting the litany of reasons why this should not work the way you're telling us it does (celestial powers sent you, but you work for a Lich King? The solar's too much of an idiot to set up a bunch of magical traps? You've got the eye and hand but are nonevil? Your saint has not fallen?!)


Get a scroll of Foresight, a scroll of Celerity, scrolls of Death by Thorns, and scrolls of Avasculate.

Before battle, Foresight. Remember that without Foresight you are considered flat-footed until you've taken an action.
Once the battle starts, Celerity, then Death By Thorns. The solar is down on the ground now, writhing in agony, even if he made his save. Now Avasculate him until only one round is left on the paralysis of Death By Thorns, use another scroll of Death By Thorns, and repeat for a while. Then have a friend or summoned minion bash the solar to death. It'll be very expensive, but the loot from a Solar should help you recoup your losses...

...Of course, after killling a paragon of good with all of those evil spells you are very, very evil, and your party saint must attack you or fall.

Emy
2009-08-27, 11:57 PM
...Of course, after killling a paragon of good with all of those evil spells you are very, very evil, and your party saint must attack you or fall.

The party saint should probably have fallen already, but that is neither here nor there.

FatR
2009-08-28, 12:48 AM
Putting aside the fact that Hextor is LE and so the very idea of what you just described is contradictory, a vestige still exists in some form. What freak was proposing was for the solar to obliterate this person down to other's memories of him.

And thank you for supporting my point. If it took TWO gods to do something that STILL managed to fall short of the proposed solution, there's no way for a Solar to accomplish it solo, even if he - how was it? - "burns Miracles."
I'm amused by the very fact that people postulate a use of Miracles and Wishes that is only possible through extremely spiteful, antagonistic GM fiat; for a GM that showers his PCs with major artifacts and, presumably, lots of other stuff.

HamHam
2009-08-28, 01:06 AM
The solar's too much of an idiot to set up a bunch of magical traps?

Well, I'm operating under the assumption that he hasn't because if he has there's basically no point in first place. But hopefully he (either the Solar or the DM :smalltongue:) is sufficiently arrogant to think them unnecessary.

Also it's a gem-thing floating around in the sky. I'm not sure where you would even put the traps.

EDIT: Also "working for" should be read as "being railroaded by" because he just pops in every once in a while to give exposition and plot and then goes off to do whatever it is that is more important than saving the world.

tyckspoon
2009-08-28, 02:44 AM
Well, I'm operating under the assumption that he hasn't because if he has there's basically no point in first place. But hopefully he (either the Solar or the DM :smalltongue:) is sufficiently arrogant to think them unnecessary.

Also it's a gem-thing floating around in the sky. I'm not sure where you would even put the traps.


Solars can cast Symbols and have Permanency as a spell-like ability. They can also spell-like Wish and cast Miracle normally to obtain the gemstone powders needed to make Symbols. Basically, if you set a Solar to guard a place long-term, the first thing it is going to do is infest it with permanent Symbols of every kind (Death and Insanity will probably only be past other warnings, as a Solar will not want to randomly kill/render permanently insane people who simply come near the place he guards without intent to harm.) And since they're Symbols, they can be placed pretty much anywhere. They could be stacked on top of each other in a complicated glyph of Screw You scribed into the surface of the object you're trying to acquire, for all you know. You can't safely approach without either carpet-bombing the area with CL-buffed Dispels or taking your time with a very good Rogue.

Johel
2009-08-28, 02:51 AM
Well, I'm operating under the assumption that he hasn't because if he has there's basically no point in first place. But hopefully he (either the Solar or the DM :smalltongue:) is sufficiently arrogant to think them unnecessary.

Also it's a gem-thing floating around in the sky. I'm not sure where you would even put the traps.

EDIT: Also "working for" should be read as "being railroaded by" because he just pops in every once in a while to give exposition and plot and then goes off to do whatever it is that is more important than saving the world.

...The gem-thing, you mean the mcguffin, right ?

Well, the gem itself can be trap, first. Soulbind, anyone ? :smallbiggrin:
More seriously, expect traps. If not to slow you down, then to destroy the mcguffin, teleport it away to another Solar or worse.

Also, since it's just floating in the open sky WHY DO YOU BOTHER FIGHTING THE SOLAR AT ALL ? :smallannoyed: Just cast fly on all of your party. Have the Saint challenge the Solar in some obvious way. Sword fight, none of this "coward" magic. The Saint could just question the Solar's alliegeance to Celestia, so that it wouldn't seem too strange for two LG to fight against each others.
The other party members all fly to grab the mcguffin while the Saint is reduced to fleshy pulp. Teleport away, ressurect the Saint (and whoever else died in the process).
If the "Lords of Celestia" really back you up, then it shouldn't be a problem.

Shadow_Elf
2009-08-29, 11:32 AM
Step 1: Kill Yourself.
Step 2: Have a party member cast Maximized Ressurection. When your DM asks what you want to be, say Kobold.
Step 3: LE Candle of Invocation.
Step 4: Efreets and Balors and such ensue
Step 5: ???
Step 6: PunPun!

At this point, you win. Congrats.

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-29, 12:40 PM
The Solar always benefits to effective immunity to 4th level and lower spells and is invisible. It also has true seeing, see invisible, damage reduction and regeneration plus immunity to cold, acid, petrification, control and mental influence.

It has a +2 composite bow of slaying, a +5 dancing greatsword AND 120.000 gp worth of other magic items the DM can screw you over with.

The Solar can also summon, imprison, dispel, animate objects, restore and resist energy at will.

It can use a free Wish with no XP component 1/day. You know, the same thing that can begin making one Pun Pun.

Last but not least, It's epic, it has access to 9th level spells and one epic feat. Can you say Epic Spellcasting?

The Glyphstone
2009-08-29, 12:47 PM
Step 1: Kill Yourself.
Step 2: Have a party member cast Maximized Ressurection. When your DM asks what you want to be, say Kobold.
Step 3: LE Candle of Invocation.
Step 4: Efreets and Balors and such ensue
Step 5: ???
Step 6: PunPun!

At this point, you win. Congrats.


Aaaaaand this plan crashes and burns at Step 2 - because Reincarnation (which I assume you meant, not Resurrection) - tops the chart at DM's Choice, not Player's Choice. Have fun trying to use a Candle of Invocation as a badger.:smallbiggrin:

Shadow_Elf
2009-08-29, 01:33 PM
Aaaaaand this plan crashes and burns at Step 2 - because Reincarnation (which I assume you meant, not Resurrection) - tops the chart at DM's Choice, not Player's Choice. Have fun trying to use a Candle of Invocation as a badger.:smallbiggrin:

Thanks, I did indeed mean Reincarnation.
I don't actually play 3.5e, so I was honestly just kinda joking. But if the DM doesn't see it coming...

Also, is there any reason PunPun has to be a Kobold? Is it just for sillyness/irony's sake, or is kobold a mechanical requirement for the build?

The Glyphstone
2009-08-29, 01:39 PM
It's tradition at this point, since the first PunPun was a kobold - though I think it does speed it up by 1 Wish, since you don't need to Wish yourself into a Scaled One.

Tiki Snakes
2009-08-29, 02:50 PM
You don't need to kill everything in your way, of course. What you really need is to BEAT a Solar at level 10. Surely, with all the hideously unbalanced cheese that the playground can summon up between it's many diseased minds, we can find SOMETHING that can safely nab the macguffin without having to engage in combat with a Solar?

Belial_the_Leveler
2009-08-30, 10:42 AM
No, you can't. The Solar gave the McGuffin to a summoned creature then used Wish to give the creature a third eye conceal so its location cannot be revealed (not even by wish) then Imprisoned the creature along with the mcguffin to a random location.

The only way to reveal its location is to use epic magic or somehow wrest the location from the Solar itself.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-30, 10:45 AM
You don't need to kill everything in your way, of course. What you really need is to BEAT a Solar at level 10. Surely, with all the hideously unbalanced cheese that the playground can summon up between it's many diseased minds, we can find SOMETHING that can safely nab the macguffin without having to engage in combat with a Solar?

As Pun-Pun has already been mentioned, how about the Omniscifier?