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View Full Version : [Pathfinder] Why Can't Bards make themselves Competent?



Mark Hall
2009-08-27, 09:10 AM
Ok, so I'm going to be playing a bard, and am looking through the Bardic Music stuff. The thing that sticks out to me is that of all the buffing abilities in Bardic Music, the ONLY one that cannot be used on the bard himself is Inspire Competence.

Why on earth would that be the only one they couldn't use on themselves? They can inspire courage, greatness, heroics, and soothe themselves with their music... but they can't use it for competence.

Doc Roc
2009-08-27, 09:11 AM
Because even in Pathfinder:
Non-wizards can't have nice things.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-27, 09:13 AM
Pathfinder tried to fix 3.5e, but with more emphasis on tried and less on fix

Irreverent Fool
2009-08-27, 09:14 AM
Ok, so I'm going to be playing a bard, and am looking through the Bardic Music stuff. The thing that sticks out to me is that of all the buffing abilities in Bardic Music, the ONLY one that cannot be used on the bard himself is Inspire Competence.

Why on earth would that be the only one they couldn't use on themselves? They can inspire courage, greatness, heroics, and soothe themselves with their music... but they can't use it for competence.

Because inspire competence is basically cheerleading. "Hey Horgar! You're the best basketweaver I've ever seen! It's amazing what you can do there! Keep it up!" If he said these things to himself, the bard would just be crazy.

obnoxious
sig

Doc Roc
2009-08-27, 09:15 AM
Because inspire competence is basically cheerleading. "Hey Horgar! You're the best basketweaver I've ever seen! It's amazing what you can do there! Keep it up!" If he said these things to himself, the bard would just be crazy.

obnoxious
sig

That seems to work for me, though.. :S

kamikasei
2009-08-27, 09:16 AM
Because inspire competence is basically cheerleading. "Hey Horgar! You're the best basketweaver I've ever seen! It's amazing what you can do there! Keep it up!" If he said these things to himself, the bard would just be crazy.

Like you've never sung or hummed to yourself to make a task go more smoothly, or repeated a mantra, or any such thing.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-27, 09:17 AM
Like you've never sung or hummed to yourself to make a task go more smoothly, or repeated a mantra, or any such thing.

Pie lesu domine, dona eis requiem...

Zeta Kai
2009-08-27, 09:21 AM
Pathfinder tried to fix 3.5e, but with more emphasis on tried and less on fix

I don't see much in the way of fixes, so much as changes. A vast majority of the differences don't seem to do anything to improve the game, just make it different enough that I have to consult the book every other action. :smallsigh:


Pie lesu domine, dona eis requiem...

Gaudete Christos es natus. Ex Maria virgine gaudete.

kamikasei
2009-08-27, 09:23 AM
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer...

Myshlaevsky
2009-08-27, 09:26 AM
Pie lesu domine, dona eis requiem...

*smack* limittext

Kaiyanwang
2009-08-27, 09:26 AM
Because inspire competence is basically cheerleading. "Hey Horgar! You're the best basketweaver I've ever seen! It's amazing what you can do there! Keep it up!" If he said these things to himself, the bard would just be crazy.

obnoxious
sig

This made pefectly sense to me. The rule has made for consistency, IMHO.

I don't understand why the OP asked somehthing about PF and the first 2 post, instead of being an explanation like this, are "PF suxx".

Are we becoming like 4th edition avengers? Sorry for the rant, but this time I really feel I have to say it.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-08-27, 09:29 AM
Are we becoming like 4th edition avengers? Sorry for the rant, but this time I really feel I have to say it.

Avengers, assemble!

Had to say it.

Irreverent Fool
2009-08-27, 09:33 AM
Like you've never sung or hummed to yourself to make a task go more smoothly, or repeated a mantra, or any such thing.

If I have, it just means I'm crazy.

Mechanically, I don't see any reason to disallow a bard inspiring himself. I mean, he's already a bard for crying out loud. Throw him a bone.

obnoxious
sig

Mark Hall
2009-08-27, 09:40 AM
If I have, it just means I'm crazy.

Mechanically, I don't see any reason to disallow a bard inspiring himself. I mean, he's already a bard for crying out loud. Throw him a bone.

obnoxious
sig

You obviously missed the memo: Bards are AWESOME.

Mark Hall
2009-08-27, 09:41 AM
Like you've never sung or hummed to yourself to make a task go more smoothly, or repeated a mantra, or any such thing.

That's what I was thinking, actually. The character in question is a smith, and the thought of chanting while working works very well.

Irreverent Fool
2009-08-27, 09:53 AM
You obviously missed the memo: Bards are AWESOME.

Being awesome doesn't make up for the fact that he's a bard.


That's what I was thinking, actually. The character in question is a smith, and the thought of chanting while working works very well.

"Hi-ho, hi-ho..."

obnoxious
sig

Stephen_E
2009-08-27, 09:56 AM
I don't understand why the OP asked somehthing about PF and the first 2 post, instead of being an explanation like this, are "PF suxx".


To be fair the 1st response was more on DnD.

"Because even in Pathfinder:
Non-wizards can't have nice things. "

Sort've "Pathfinder's good but even it can't break the cardinal rules of the universe".

Stephen

oxybe
2009-08-27, 10:08 AM
This made pefectly sense to me. The rule has made for consistency, IMHO.

I don't understand why the OP asked somehthing about PF and the first 2 post, instead of being an explanation like this, are "PF suxx".

Are we becoming like 4th edition avengers? Sorry for the rant, but this time I really feel I have to say it.

d00d, dat bcuz poopfinder iz teh suxx, j00 neds 2 ply 4th 'cuz it'll roxxor joor boxxors 2 da moooooooooooon!

the "4th ed avengers" have existed since D&D started having new editions. they just didn't have the interwebs back then and were known under a different name.

Epinephrine
2009-08-27, 10:10 AM
It's from that "backwards compatability" thing, D&D 3.5 bards can't (from the SRD:"A bard canít inspire competence in himself."), so they've carried it over. Don't like it, change it.

Mark Hall
2009-08-27, 10:19 AM
Being awesome doesn't make up for the fact that he's a bard.

No. Being a bard causes him to be awesome. This is a fact of the universe.




"Hi-ho, hi-ho..."


"Whistle while you work." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY3aljAO7qU)

Mongoose87
2009-08-27, 10:21 AM
Well, let's look at it this way:

The bard is watching his buddy Dingle the Dwarf fail miserably at trying to discern the meaning of a coded message (y'know deciphering script, and all that). So, he leaps into action! And even though he believes Dingle is the most useless script decipherer in all of [insert campaign setting here], he sings about he's skilled and brave and cunning, lying through his teeth. But, it makes Dingle feel more confident and helps him get the job done.

This would not work at all if he did it to himself. It would probably make things worse.

chiasaur11
2009-08-27, 10:23 AM
No. Being a bard causes him to be awesome. This is a fact of the universe.




Next (correction, first) Bard I make is going to be based on classic Lou Reed.

AstralFire
2009-08-27, 10:25 AM
Well, let's look at it this way:

The bard is watching his buddy Dingle the Dwarf fail miserably at trying to discern the meaning of a coded message (y'know deciphering script, and all that). So, he leaps into action! And even though he believes Dingle is the most useless script decipherer in all of [insert campaign setting here], he sings about he's skilled and brave and cunning, lying through his teeth. But, it makes Dingle feel more confident and helps him get the job done.

This would not work at all if he did it to himself. It would probably make things worse.

I think I can, I think I can

Mark Hall
2009-08-27, 10:28 AM
Well, let's look at it this way:

The bard is watching his buddy Dingle the Dwarf fail miserably at trying to discern the meaning of a coded message (y'know deciphering script, and all that). So, he leaps into action! And even though he believes Dingle is the most useless script decipherer in all of [insert campaign setting here], he sings about he's skilled and brave and cunning, lying through his teeth. But, it makes Dingle feel more confident and helps him get the job done.

This would not work at all if he did it to himself. It would probably make things worse.

That assumes that he thinks the guy is incompetent. What if he knows that the person in question is competent (after all, why are we giving it to Dingle?), and just wants to give him an extra boost?

El Chupaqueso
2009-08-27, 10:36 AM
To inspire confidence (and compitence) in others, one should be able to drum up confidence in themselves, so I think it stands to reason that a Bard should be able to use Inspire Compitence on themself. Especially if the rest of the Bards similar spells work that way.

Cyclocone
2009-08-27, 10:38 AM
Well, let's look at it this way:

The bard is watching his buddy Dingle the Dwarf fail miserably at trying to discern the meaning of a coded message (y'know deciphering script, and all that). So, he leaps into action! And even though he believes Dingle is the most useless script decipherer in all of [insert campaign setting here], he sings about he's skilled and brave and cunning, lying through his teeth. But, it makes Dingle feel more confident and helps him get the job done.

This would not work at all if he did it to himself. It would probably make things worse.

Autohypnosis;)

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-27, 11:34 AM
Like you've never sung or hummed to yourself to make a task go more smoothly, or repeated a mantra, or any such thing.

Except Bards in Pathfinder can only do so for 2 minutes/day or so before running out completely. Try taking 20 while the Bard is using Inspire Competence. Then watch him lament as soon as you fight a Golem or undead and is forced to use somewhat suboptimal buff spells for his in-combat actions.

UserClone
2009-08-27, 12:15 PM
I have to agree with Mark, guys, Bards are already awesome by virtue of being Bards. The reason that they can't inspire competence in themselves is therefore that they would become so competent that all the Experts in the world would commit seppuku from shame.

Also, see the link in my sig.

AstralFire
2009-08-27, 12:22 PM
Bards are freakin' awesome and don't forget it or I'll seppuku your face with a stapler.

Mongoose87
2009-08-27, 12:24 PM
Bards are freakin' awesome and don't forget it or I'll seppuku your face with a stapler.

I don't think that's how it works.

chiasaur11
2009-08-27, 12:31 PM
I don't think that's how it works.

It does if the bard wants it to work that way.

AstralFire
2009-08-27, 12:33 PM
I don't think that's how it works.


http://www.theanteheroes.com/Humor/StaplerFaced.png

Anyone else want to question that Bards are awesome?

Fax Celestis
2009-08-27, 12:33 PM
hurr hurr hurr I'll inspire your competence

Kami2awa
2009-08-27, 12:37 PM
That's what I was thinking, actually. The character in question is a smith, and the thought of chanting while working works very well.

Yes there are loads of examples of songs that are used to help people work; sailors used sea shanties while woodcutters use logarithms (I think...)

AstralFire
2009-08-27, 12:39 PM
Yes there are loads of examples of songs that are used to help people work; sailors used sea shanties while woodcutters use logarithms (I think...)

You get two pun points for that.

Myrmex
2009-08-27, 12:43 PM
Like you've never sung or hummed to yourself to make a task go more smoothly, or repeated a mantra, or any such thing.

It rubs the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again, it rubs the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again....

Kylarra
2009-08-27, 12:50 PM
Anyone else want to question that Bards are awesome?lol bards. :smalltongue:

Starbuck_II
2009-08-27, 01:48 PM
Bards are freakin' awesome and don't forget it or I'll seppuku your face with a stapler.

In 3.5 Bards are awesome. But how can you show they are in Pathfinder.

I have yet to see the Badass Bard converted yet.

Epinephrine
2009-08-27, 02:08 PM
In 3.5 Bards are awesome. But how can you show they are in Pathfinder.

Well, I don't know your "Badass Bard", but:
PF bards get spells earlier.
They also have bigger HD.
They can start Bardic Music as a move action as of 8th level, or as a swift action as of 13th level, and there is no restriction on casting/using items while performng.
They can use Perform in place of other skills (Perform (Wind) for example can be used as a Diplomacy check or as a Handle Animal check))
They get half their level as a bonus to all knowledge skills.
They eventually treat all skills as class skills, and can take 10 on any skill, any time.
They can take 20 on knowledge checks a limited number of times a day.
They can frighten with a song, or even kill someone (probably by miming that they are walking into a really strong wind).
They can heal others by singing for 4 rounds, as if casting a mass cure serious wounds using their bard level as the caster level.
Inspire Competence actually scales. It's not just +2 anymore - you could add as much as +6.
Inspire Courage scales faster, too!

Unfortunately, they suck in some ways.
- Songs don't last for 5 rounds when you stop singing, so you can't switch from Inspire Courage to Inspire Greatness and have both in effect.
- All the bonuses are competence bonuses, so the various songs can't stack (they do stack with Heroism and Greater Heroism, though)
- Bard song is in rounds/day instead of uses per day. Not shabby for a normal adventuring day, but sucks for a really packed day of fighting, or helping people climb a cliff - you could easily burn all your uses using inspire competences to get past an obstacle.

Alejandro
2009-08-27, 02:14 PM
Because inspire competence is basically cheerleading. "Hey Horgar! You're the best basketweaver I've ever seen! It's amazing what you can do there! Keep it up!" If he said these things to himself, the bard would just be crazy.

obnoxious
sig

Military cadence songs, etc, during drills are basically this same concept, though. The benefit applies to yourself, as well.

Kallisti
2009-08-27, 02:30 PM
I think it makes sense. People help themselves do something by telling themselves they can do it over and over until they start believeing it all the time IRL. I can't agree with Irreverent Fool that only crazy people do it. I think bards should be able to inspire competence in themselves.

Also, I hate the rounds per day rule. With all my heart. And if I ever ran Pathfinder, I would houserule it back to uses per day. Because even with all of the pathfinder buffs to the bard, the rounds/day rule is a nerf bards really cannot afford, and I've never understood why they'd do such a thing to the poor innnocent bards:smallfurious:![/rant]

Epinephrine
2009-08-27, 02:43 PM
Also, I hate the rounds per day rule. With all my heart. And if I ever ran Pathfinder, I would houserule it back to uses per day. Because even with all of the pathfinder buffs to the bard, the rounds/day rule is a nerf bards really cannot afford, and I've never understood why they'd do such a thing to the poor innnocent bards:smallfurious:![/rant]

I think that if they had made uses last per encounter it would have been a better way of handling it. X/day, like the old system, but make them expire on an encounter basis, so that a single song can't be maintained all day long (sure, you can sing all day, but if you have 4 fights and you wish to inspire courage in each of them it'll take 4 uses).

Stephen_E
2009-08-27, 02:54 PM
Pathfinder does seem to have a thing for absolute minimum systems.

Everything is in rounds.
Everything uses CMD ect.
Tumble DC modified by opponents BAB was good, but now it got changed to CMD which makes less sense.

We know where this one method to rule them all is going to go.

Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

It'll all end in tears before dinner.

Stephen E

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-27, 03:11 PM
Pathfinder does seem to have a thing for absolute minimum systems.



Hence the reason why the PF Bard and Barbarian are weaker than the original class. Just because the PF Barbarian can get more tricks out of his Rage ability doesn't mean he can stand up to an optimized 3.5 Barbarian.


And don't even get me started on PF Bard VS Dragonfire Bard. The gap is just too big.

Epinephrine
2009-08-27, 03:29 PM
And don't even get me started on PF Bard VS Dragonfire Bard. The gap is just too big.

Apples and oranges. May as well compare a Dragonfire bard to a 3.5 bard.

Nai_Calus
2009-08-27, 05:02 PM
You can't seppuku someone else, it's a form of ritual suicide. *pacefalm*

Pathfinder: Bards were too powerful, so we nerfed them.
Entire multiverse: Whu?

Though best not to get me started on Pathfinder, really.

Yora
2009-08-27, 05:06 PM
There are a number of people who look at pathfinder and don't agree on several aspects.

Like boosting the fighter a little bit and boosting druids and wizards even more.

AstralFire
2009-08-27, 05:24 PM
You can't seppuku someone else, it's a form of ritual suicide. *pacefalm*

WHAT

You mean to inform me - tell me - that my statement suggesting I would ritually suicide someone via disembowelment in the face using a stapler...

was in fact a nonsensical statement?!

NO WAY!

I have been Vorpal'd!

Starbuck_II
2009-08-27, 06:01 PM
You can't seppuku someone else, it's a form of ritual suicide. *pacefalm*

Pathfinder: Bards were too powerful, so we nerfed them.
Entire multiverse: Whu?

Though best not to get me started on Pathfinder, really.

Looks like it is time for Seppuku Pizza:
30 minutes or we kill ourselves!

chiasaur11
2009-08-27, 06:18 PM
Looks like it is time for Seppuku Pizza:
30 minutes or we kill ourselves!

I prefer La Costra Nostra. Then your incompetent driver dies and the pizza is delivered free by Uncle Enzo.

Epinephrine
2009-08-27, 06:58 PM
There are a number of people who look at pathfinder and don't agree on several aspects.

Like boosting the fighter a little bit and boosting druids and wizards even more.

I'm getting a little sick of criticisms of a system by those who don't know it.

They nerfed wildshape pretty thoroughly, completely re-tooled animal companions (weaker, and properly balanced across the board - no fleshraker monstrocities), and fewer spells. Where do you get "boosting druids" from that?

Starbuck_II
2009-08-27, 07:35 PM
I'm getting a little sick of criticisms of a system by those who don't know it.

They nerfed wildshape pretty thoroughly, completely re-tooled animal companions (weaker, and properly balanced across the board - no fleshraker monstrocities), and fewer spells. Where do you get "boosting druids" from that?

Oh, Druids can give up their Animal Companion for a domain which grants an animal Companion.
Animal Domain.
Maybe he meant that factor.

Grommen
2009-08-27, 07:38 PM
Because inspire competence is basically cheerleading. "Hey Horgar! You're the best basketweaver I've ever seen! It's amazing what you can do there! Keep it up!" If he said these things to himself, the bard would just be crazy.

obnoxious
sig

Have you ever known a sane one?

DragoonWraith
2009-08-27, 09:33 PM
WHAT

You mean to inform me - tell me - that my statement suggesting I would ritually suicide someone via disembowelment in the face using a stapler...

was in fact a nonsensical statement?!

NO WAY!

I have been Vorpal'd!
Ohmigawd it's AstralFire!

Sinfire Titan
2009-08-27, 10:35 PM
Ohmigawd it's AstralFire!

It's getting there. Needs a little more cowbell before it hits memedom. But it's getting there.

FMArthur
2009-08-27, 11:04 PM
There are a number of people who look at pathfinder and don't agree on several aspects.

Like boosting dragon-kicking the fighter in the back a little bit and boosting druids and wizards even more.

Fixed that for you. I know, English is tricky to get used to. :smalltongue:

Stephen_E
2009-08-28, 02:44 AM
Oh, Druids can give up their Animal Companion for a domain which grants an animal Companion.
Animal Domain.
Maybe he meant that factor.

A weaker animal companion, which is a large part of the domaon powers.

Really not a boost.

That said, if you're looking for a balanced 3.5 don't go to Pathfinder. They've done some limited balancing stuff but overall it's more about interesting options except where it hits the prejudices of the designers. Small design team has this vunerability, but that's life.

If you want a balanced game play with players who want a balanced game or play 4th Ed. Basically 3.5, and variants of 3.5, are about choice. So long as you have lots of choice it can be made unbalanced by the players. There's no way around that.

Stephen