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Primal Fury
2009-08-27, 05:09 PM
I just went on my first skim/perusal through the first two parts of the Immortal's Handbook and OH MY GAWD it's awesome. Why would they even consider making Deities and Demigods the way they did when you could take things THIS far??? Though why the made the neutronium golem so strong is a little beyond me.

I'd also like to know what you guys thought of it (if you've read it) and when they're gonna be publishing the rest of the volumes, as the website seems to be down for some reason.

chiasaur11
2009-08-27, 05:35 PM
General opinion from what I've seen is that it's just an RNG hooked up to statblocks and various ways of writing Caine's rules from World of Darkness, but with glaring weakspots.

The Glyphstone
2009-08-27, 06:02 PM
Yeah, the Immortals Handbook really isn't worth it. It's just a bunch of ridiculous number inflation attached to some monsters that are either invincible regardless of stats (Example - Oroborous, who literally cannot be attacked by anyone except himself, since he has a unique ability that shields him from anyone without it) or amazingly vulnerable (the Neutronium Golem looks awesome, but most of the standard Golem-killing tricks still work...a level 20 wizard could probably handle it, let alone the absurdity that Epic magic can produce)/

bosssmiley
2009-08-27, 09:24 PM
Sniping aside Immortals Handbook has some good ideas in there.

Making progression into a literal creature of legend a part of the Epic progression
explicit progression from feats to epic feats, and then to SDAs
drawing power from worshippers
the modified Epic metamagic
the Meta-Martial abilities
the cosmic EGG, from which hatched the Akashic Record that exists behind the terminal boundary of reality and defines all the laws of all the multiverses. I LOL'ed when I finally twigged to what each of those was supposed to be OOG.

Other parts of the IH system fall into the trap of number inflation. That's a shame, because the munchkin yells of "Over 9000!!!" and the sneering of 'more gamer than thou' types this inspires tends to drown out the good the book has to offer.

In some ways IH is what the ELH and D&DG should have been all along: a reintroduction into the game of the old BECMI Immortals rules. Which, considering it's by-and-large the work of one guy, is quite an achievement.

Alleine
2009-08-27, 09:48 PM
I've never read it, but seeing creatures that people post using IH leads me to believe that its mostly worthless. Of course, I've never even managed to get a character to level 20 so maybe I'm missing something and the IH does more than just turn the game into what is essentially a size contest, if you get my meaning.

A lot of creatures also seem to suffer from extremely redundant abilities, like being able to replay X number of rounds per day... using 8 abilities that are different only in the amount of time that can be replayed. Or being immune to magic while also suppressing all magic cast anywhere near them, and then taking away the ability for people to even cast in the first place.

It might be fun if there are rules in there for PCs to actually take on some of these creatures. Maybe. Although I think combat would tend to be a combination of tedium and instant wins.

Primal Fury
2009-08-27, 10:08 PM
In truth, I was speaking more about the Ascension book rather than the Beastiary. I prefer the thought of using more of the former and just a bit of the latter to create appropriate monsters.

@ The_Glyphstone:
...Why exactly would you WANT to kill the physical personification of Time? :smallconfused:

Zeta Kai
2009-08-27, 10:16 PM
Why exactly would you WANT to kill the physical personification of Time? :smallconfused:

For the same reason that some players do anything; for the LOLZ. :smallsigh:

thegurullamen
2009-08-27, 10:23 PM
...Why exactly would you WANT to kill the physical personification of Time? :smallconfused:

You ever see that Twilight Zone episode where the guy gets a magic stop watch that stops time and he accidentally smashes it so he's permanently trapped in null-time forever? That was cool. Aside from that, time has got to be consolidated somewhere, so why not with you?
Or it could just be a thought experiment on Permanency's effects on Time Stop. (Arcane Focus: One dead Ouroboros.)

The Glyphstone
2009-08-27, 10:25 PM
@ The_Glyphstone:
...Why exactly would you WANT to kill the physical personification of Time? :smallconfused:

By the same question, why does it need stats?:smallconfused:

Eldariel
2009-08-27, 10:30 PM
By the same question, why does it need stats?:smallconfused:

The idea is that it exists. If something exists, it has stats. They may be completely insane and thus outside the scope of normal games, but if it exists, it has stats and the whole point of Immortal's Handbook is to enable play on any level and thus provide stats for literally everything.

I personally subscribe to this fully - if I want to play a game where I am a Far Realms entity wanting to unravel the multiverse, destroying "Time" might be a nice plan.

The Glyphstone
2009-08-27, 10:54 PM
And if it has stats, someone will want to kill it - the end result of all D&D.:smallbiggrin:

The problem with your scenario is that, while it'd make a fascinating basis for a campaign, it's impossible unless the DM gives you the ability to ignore his ability to ignore everyone's attacks against him - at which point, why does he even have the ability in the first place?

vasharanpaladin
2009-08-27, 11:00 PM
And if it has stats, someone will want to kill it - the end result of all D&D.:smallbiggrin:

The problem with your scenario is that, while it'd make a fascinating basis for a campaign, it's impossible unless the DM gives you the ability to ignore his ability to ignore everyone's attacks against him - at which point, why does he even have the ability in the first place?

The ability to do so does exist, in the very same set of rules. It just comes down to the problem of player knowledge versus character knowledge; you have to know that Ouroboros has this ability, and your character must know this and realize that it is, in fact, the creature's strongest ability.

Then, and only then, are you able to Abrogate the ability, assuming your divinity template allows you to take cosmic abilities. :smallbiggrin:

The Glyphstone
2009-08-27, 11:44 PM
The ability to do so does exist, in the very same set of rules. It just comes down to the problem of player knowledge versus character knowledge; you have to know that Ouroboros has this ability, and your character must know this and realize that it is, in fact, the creature's strongest ability.

Then, and only then, are you able to Abrogate the ability, assuming your divinity template allows you to take cosmic abilities. :smallbiggrin:

So the Immortals Handbook lets players steal other monster's abilities Pun-Pun style. Interesting.

TBH, I hadn't realized the IH was more than a Monster Manual OVER NINE THOUSAND. If there's material in there for making the players the same level of Uber as the critters, then it becomes a different story.

vasharanpaladin
2009-08-27, 11:49 PM
So the Immortals Handbook lets players steal other monster's abilities Pun-Pun style. Interesting.

TBH, I hadn't realized the IH was more than a Monster Manual OVER NINE THOUSAND. If there's material in there for making the players the same level of Uber as the critters, then it becomes a different story.

Abrogate doesn't "steal" the ability, it nullifies it. A creature with the abrogate ability denies each opponent within a set radius the use of its strongest ability, whether that ability is a score, feat, class feature, or divine ability+. An abrogated ability score is treated as if it were 10 for the whole fight. The bad thing is, in the hands of a competent DM, these creatures like to target the main stats of casters.

Incidentally, Pun-Pun actually has a finite CR under this system. Granted, that CR is arbitrarily high, but it is a set number. :smallbiggrin: