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Gralamin
2009-08-31, 05:21 PM
The Hybrid Class rules (From Dragon) that will be printed in PHB3 are, overall, an excellent set of rules. However they have a few flaws I wish to address.

1) They do not feel like they mesh completely - Class features such as sneak attack cannot be used on both classes powers, and so it doesn't seem like the class is a unified Whole. In addition, these class features cannot even be used with multiclass powers!
2) Hybrid Talent is too limited - At max, you can get two Hybrid Talents by giving up your prestige class. I understand why its limited, but its too limited overall for my tastes.
3) Some Hybrid Classes lose more then others - A good example is the Wizard and Sorcerer. Sorcerer loses almost nothing through Hybrid, while a Wizard loses basically everything.

Fixes
1) I have two fixes for this problem: A feat, and a change to Paragon Hybrid rules.
Unified Hybrid (Heroic)
Prerequisite: Hybrid Character, Hybrid Class Feature that only applies to one classes powers.
Benefit: Choose a Hybrid Class Feature that only applies to one classes powers. That Feature may be used with any powers from classes or paragon paths that you possess. If this benefit would cause two features to stack that would not normally, you only use the feature that gives the greater benefit.
Special: You may take this Feat a second time in Paragon, and a third time in Epic.

This would allow, say, A ranger|Rogue to Sneak attack and Hunter's quarry with either sides powers, just not at the same time.

Paragon Hybrid Change
You gain Unified Hybrid for all class features you possess that it could apply to. If you gain a new class feature that it would apply to through some method after taking your first level of Paragon Hybrid, you do not gain this benefit for the new feature.


2)A simple change: Hybrid Talent may be taken 1/tier (Each time costing a feat), and Paragon Hybrid gives you the feat for free, not counting towards your limit.


3) More detailed and close examination of Hybrid classes is needed for a complete homebrew. As a quick and dirty fix for some:
Wizard - Gains Arcane Implement Mastery (Hybrid). Can spend Hybrid Talent to gain the full version of the Ability, with the same implement as selected.
Arcane Implement Mastery (Hybrid)
Choose one of the following benefits.
Orb of Deception - 1/encounter as a free action, when you miss an enemy with a wizard illusion power, choose another enemy adjacent to the missed target. The chosen enemy cannot also be a target of the original attack. Repeat the attack against the new target.
Orb Of Imposition - 1/encounter as a free action, you may choose to extend the duration of an effect created by a wizard at-will spell (Such as cloud of daggers or ray of frost) that would otherwise end at the end of your current turn. The effect instead ends at the end of your next turn.
Staff of Defense - You gain a +1 bonus to AC
Tome of Binding - 1/encounter as a free action, if you use your tome when using an arcane summoning power, all creatures summoned by the power gain a +1 bonus to damage.
Tome of Readiness - You gain a +1 bonus to Reflex (Couldn't think of a better way).
Wand of Accuracy - 1/encounter as a free action, you gain a +1 to a single attack roll.


[hr]
This obviously isn't completely done, but questions, comments?

Alteran
2009-08-31, 05:33 PM
I like it. I don't have a big issue with the class features that only work with the powers of one class, but I can see how it might make a Hybrid character seem fragmented.

The second modification was something I had already decided to implement as a houserule if I ever DM for a Hybrid character. I approve.

The third modification also seems fine, but if it's going into use then it'll need more precise wording.

Gralamin
2009-08-31, 05:52 PM
I like it. I don't have a big issue with the class features that only work with the powers of one class, but I can see how it might make a Hybrid character seem fragmented.

The second modification was something I had already decided to implement as a houserule if I ever DM for a Hybrid character. I approve.

The third modification also seems fine, but if it's going into use then it'll need more precise wording.

Right now, for the third, I'm trying to think up fixes and such for each class, and once I have actual concepts down, I'll make the wording more precise.

Yakk
2009-09-01, 10:01 AM
The point of "only on this classes powers" was to avoid double dipping.

Ie, the Barbarian|Warlock or Barbarian|Ranger who uses full-barbarian damage powers and gets bonus damage dice from the other class.

You end up with a Hybrid of two strikers doing more damage than each striker. Which is exactly what they where trying to avoid.

I'll admit that it is poor that a Hybrid character being 'worse' than a Paragon Multiclass at mixing powers and features isn't a good feature.

"Applies only to powers from this class. If you gain powers via paragon paths or multiclassing, you may choose one hybrid class to 'consider the powers belong to' at the point you gain the powers." or verbage to that effect.

Finally, you want to add in basic (weapon) attacks as powers that hybrid characters get.

Gralamin
2009-09-01, 11:11 AM
The point of "only on this classes powers" was to avoid double dipping.

Ie, the Barbarian|Warlock or Barbarian|Ranger who uses full-barbarian damage powers and gets bonus damage dice from the other class.

You end up with a Hybrid of two strikers doing more damage than each striker. Which is exactly what they where trying to avoid.
Well, from, what I can tell, the only problem with my change is the Barbarian right? I'll find some way to fix that.


I'll admit that it is poor that a Hybrid character being 'worse' than a Paragon Multiclass at mixing powers and features isn't a good feature.

"Applies only to powers from this class. If you gain powers via paragon paths or multiclassing, you may choose one hybrid class to 'consider the powers belong to' at the point you gain the powers." or verbage to that effect.
Thats, at least, a good partway fix.


Finally, you want to add in basic (weapon) attacks as powers that hybrid characters get.

Where does this come from? I thought they already have the basic attacks.

Yakk
2009-09-01, 02:56 PM
Technically, a hybrid fighter doesn't mark when they make a basic attack. Hence allowing you to apply one of your two classes to the basic attack.

Anyhow, as an another example of the problem: A Rogue|Ranger picks up Unified Hybrid (sneak attack) and proficiency (superior crossbow).

Then uses twin strike from stealth.

2d10+2d6 damage at-will at level 1. With 50% hit chance, about 11.7 average damage/round.

With each additional level, you grab brutal scoundrel, backstabber, etc -- gaining 2-3 damage per round per feat. In short, the gap gets larger, not smaller, between you and other striker damage per round.

Now you can do this in 4e standard -- but you need to be paragon to pull it off.

In comparison, a 18 dex 14 str 14 cha brutal scoundrel rogue at level 1 with backstabber and nimble blade is doing 19.5 damage on a hit (sly flourish) at 12.125 damage per round with a dagger (60% hit chance). The difference is that the above character is not at the point of diminishing returns for feats, while this one is.

Each extra feat for the standard rogue deals ~+0.6-1.0 damage (expertise .98, weapon focus .6, etc). Each extra feat for the hybrid does +1-3 damage (backstabber - 1.6, weapon focus - 1.0, hybrid talent brutal scoundrel with 16 str - 2.25)

Any case where you have a strong class feature and a strong power pairing, you can pull this off. In core 4e, you needed to use multiple feats to try this (and you could not do it at-will short of paragon), which helps make up for the synergy. In this hybrid variant, you get it 'free' as a hybrid character.

...

One idea would be a hybridization power feat -- pick one power. You can use it as a power of either class (but only one class at a time). Have one for encounter, one for daily, one for at-will attacks, and give it a level requirement.

Shadow_Elf
2009-09-01, 03:59 PM
Or, allow characters to take either Unified Hybrid OR Hybrid Talent once/tier. This means that a Rogue|Ranger cannot pick up Unified Sneak Attack AND Brutal Scoundrel at Heroic. And if a character, say a Fighter|Ranger wants to mark and HQ with all powers, they need to be paragon, and then they can't get weapon talent or ranger technique until Epic. I think this would prevent most, if not all, problems.

Gralamin
2009-09-01, 05:58 PM
One idea would be a hybridization power feat -- pick one power. You can use it as a power of either class (but only one class at a time). Have one for encounter, one for daily, one for at-will attacks, and give it a level requirement.

That seems like it'd cause the exact same problem though, just more limited in scope.


Or, allow characters to take either Unified Hybrid OR Hybrid Talent once/tier. This means that a Rogue|Ranger cannot pick up Unified Sneak Attack AND Brutal Scoundrel at Heroic. And if a character, say a Fighter|Ranger wants to mark and HQ with all powers, they need to be paragon, and then they can't get weapon talent or ranger technique until Epic. I think this would prevent most, if not all, problems.

Hmmm this might be a good solution.

Yakk
2009-09-01, 06:05 PM
That seems like it'd cause the exact same problem though, just more limited in scope.
Sort of.

This lines up directly with the multiclass rules. In effect, making a power a 'full hybrid power' makes it identical to a normal character doing a multiclass power swap.

You allow an encounter 'full hybrid' at level 4, allow you to 'full hybrid' an at-will one/encounter for a feat at level 6, a daily at level 8, and at paragon you can full hybrid an at-will for the cost of a feat.

This lines up quite close to the multiclass power-swap rules -- so this is only as imbalanced as the power-swap feats are. What it does is give Hybrids access to the same trick for roughly the same cost.

The 1/encounter "at will as other hybrid half" feat is similar to the half-elf racial power. Good, but not ridiculously good.

The any time "at will as another hybrid half" is similar to some paragon multiclassing/half elf racial options. Once again it is good, but not unprecedented.

And instead of getting this 'for free' (and hence requiring that all hybrids be balanced under the assumption that you are doing something like this), you are instead paying for it with a feat fee -- which increases the balance point of hybrids who aren't pulling off this trick.

As a final advantage, as everything you are doing is quite similar to existing core multiclass rules, almost any exploit you could pull off as a hybrid you could have pulled off as a multiclass character or half-elf.

Gralamin
2009-09-01, 07:18 PM
Sort of.

This lines up directly with the multiclass rules. In effect, making a power a 'full hybrid power' makes it identical to a normal character doing a multiclass power swap.

You allow an encounter 'full hybrid' at level 4, allow you to 'full hybrid' an at-will one/encounter for a feat at level 6, a daily at level 8, and at paragon you can full hybrid an at-will for the cost of a feat.

This lines up quite close to the multiclass power-swap rules -- so this is only as imbalanced as the power-swap feats are. What it does is give Hybrids access to the same trick for roughly the same cost.

The 1/encounter "at will as other hybrid half" feat is similar to the half-elf racial power. Good, but not ridiculously good.

The any time "at will as another hybrid half" is similar to some paragon multiclassing/half elf racial options. Once again it is good, but not unprecedented.

And instead of getting this 'for free' (and hence requiring that all hybrids be balanced under the assumption that you are doing something like this), you are instead paying for it with a feat fee -- which increases the balance point of hybrids who aren't pulling off this trick.

As a final advantage, as everything you are doing is quite similar to existing core multiclass rules, almost any exploit you could pull off as a hybrid you could have pulled off as a multiclass character or half-elf.

Except it doesn't really meet the stated design goal: IE making the classes feel like a unified whole instead of fragmented.