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Mystic Muse
2009-09-01, 01:04 AM
okay. Is there any way to make this workable? My DM said he'd allow the Threat class but only if I chose a race like the halfling or gnome. I went for the Kenku. They all get the same penalty anyway. Is there any way to make this Class not severely gimped when it gets a penalty to strength? Or is it not gimped with a penalty to strength anyway?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-01, 01:06 AM
What's the Threat?

Mystic Muse
2009-09-01, 01:08 AM
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Threat_(3.5e_Class)#Mighty_Blow

Doc Roc
2009-09-01, 01:13 AM
I just start laughing every time I read that class, because there's this (hopefully unintended) implication that double-damage class-level times per day is roughly equivalent in power to hitting as though your weapon is one category larger.

Wings of Peace
2009-09-01, 01:14 AM
What's your goal for the char? Short and high dps? Short and high dps Threat in particular? Combat Maneuver Specialist? I ask because while I would not accuse the Threat of being imbalanced I would accuse it of depending on whether you want it for flavor or for optimization being a debatably sub-optimal choice.

Mystic Muse
2009-09-01, 01:34 AM
I like it for the flavor. Also tell me that if I have to be a small character a three foot birdman holding a four foot sword wouldn't look just plain hilarious.

Eloel
2009-09-01, 01:48 AM
That class is made of FAIL. Seriously though, +16 to all combat-checks at L20?
If you could stack feats (and you can't...), that's equal to 16 feats (Improved Grapple/Trip/Bull Rush/Overrun x4). And you can do double damage 40 times/day too. Oh, you're immune to anything mind-effecting as well. +10 to Fort & Natural Armor?...

This class is basically 3 classes rolled into 1, with LA-requiring abilities added for fun. Something akin to Lightning Warrior.

Mystic Muse
2009-09-01, 01:51 AM
That class is made of FAIL. Seriously though, +16 to all combat-checks at L20?
If you could stack feats (and you can't...), that's equal to 16 feats (Improved Grapple/Trip/Bull Rush/Overrun x4). And you can do double damage 40 times/day too. Oh, you're immune to anything mind-effecting as well. +10 to Fort & Natural Armor?...

This class is basically 3 classes rolled into 1. Something akin to Lightning Warrior.

This of course requires the class to live to level twenty.

just remember this. If the GM wants you dead it doesn't matter what class you are or what you roll. you're still going to DIE

Eloel
2009-09-01, 01:55 AM
So, let's all make Pun-Pun...

Mystic Muse
2009-09-01, 01:59 AM
So, let's all make Pun-Pun...

:smallsigh: never mind.

also this class can STILL be outshined by others. If it can match the wizard in terms of potential power then that's GOOD. It means somebody is doing something right. however the class is still vulnerable to many spells.

and like I said the DM ALLOWED this. I'm not trying to force it upon my DM and he was perfectly free to say no. comparing it to punpun is hardly fair.

Eloel
2009-09-01, 02:04 AM
If it can match the wizard in terms of potential power then that's GOOD. It means someeverybody is doing something rightwrong.

Here, fixed for you

Draz74
2009-09-01, 02:07 AM
Something akin to Lightning Warrior.

Oh, come on. Lightning Warrior gets a bad rap, but it's really a very nicely-balanced class. I mean, it doesn't even get a familiar.

(Somebody had to say it.)

Heh, seriously, this joke still makes me crack up every time. Whoever invented the Lightning Warrior should go with Jonathan Swift (author of "A Modest Proposal ...") in the all-time Satire Hall of Fame ...)

Mystic Muse
2009-09-01, 02:14 AM
Here, fixed for you

actually no you didn't. I meant what I said.

Wizards have far too many options that makes them outclass pretty much everything. If a fighter type could potentially match them it'd be a good thing.

even if it would be a bad thing you can't blame everybody for one person's mistake.

Mystic Muse
2009-09-01, 02:15 AM
Oh, come on. Lightning Warrior gets a bad rap, but it's really a very nicely-balanced class. I mean, it doesn't even get a familiar.

(Somebody had to say it.)

Heh, seriously, this joke still makes me crack up every time. Whoever invented the Lightning Warrior should go with Jonathan Swift (author of "A Modest Proposal ...") in the all-time Satire Hall of Fame ...)

I don't get either reference. what's the lightning warrior?

Eloel
2009-09-01, 02:19 AM
actually no you didn't. I meant what I said.

Wizards have far too many options that makes them outclass pretty much everything. If a fighter type could potentially match them it'd be a good thing.

You should instead go about reducing Wizard. They're broken beyond belief, matching them will make the concept of balance completely destroyed.

Also, here is Lightning Warrior (http://209.85.129.132/search?q=cache:adwJV0sJxbUJ:forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-868384+lightning+warrior+d%26d&cd=1&hl=tr&ct=clnk&gl=tr&client=firefox-a).

A Modest Proposal is an article about how baby-eating would solve many economic and social problems.

Kylarra
2009-09-01, 02:23 AM
Remember, the lightning warrior also can't specialize. :smalltongue:

Eloel
2009-09-01, 02:24 AM
Remember, the lightning warrior also can't specialize. :smalltongue:

Well, lack of familiar is some problem, and the lack of cure spells just cripples the class.

Mystic Muse
2009-09-01, 02:26 AM
will somebody just answer the original question?:smallsigh:

Kylarra
2009-09-01, 02:26 AM
Well, lack of familiar is some problem, and the lack of cure spells just cripples the class.
It is truly a class that sacrifices power for flavor.

Eloel
2009-09-01, 02:28 AM
It is truly a class that sacrifices power for flavor.

Just like Threat...

Original Q's answer. You need to take a +5 LA class with no features to get this class gimped. Str penalty won't be gimping it. Or you can take this class in a gestalt game as a single class. That would get it close to balance.

Doc Roc
2009-09-01, 02:33 AM
Okay. Here's my take:

Threat isn't broken, just weird. It does some things too well, but fails to cover a lot of core weaknesses with non-casters. I can still probably one-shot you as a MM sorcerer, or just shut you down with a single solid fog. In exchange, you're immune to a bunch of things no one does, and you have really high saves.

It doesn't get:
Flight
See Invis
Truesight
Meaningfully new combat options
Freedom of movement

It gets:
Weirdly worded bonuses to combat maneuvers that are horribly difficult to line up in a world where move speeds of 600 are one spell away.
MOARRRR Damage.
Free monkey grip.
Immunity to MA.


However, other posters are correct. This class is totally indifferent to your size. More so than most others, in fact. Possibly scarily so. I'd love to hear battle-reports about how it actually works out in real combats. If your GM needs a hand, just tell him or her to drop me a line.

:: malevolent grin ::

Draz74
2009-09-01, 02:38 AM
I don't get either reference. what's the lightning warrior?

The Lightning Warrior (linked above) is the funniest thread to ever grace the WotC forums. Priceless comedy ... mostly because so many of the responses completely fumbled their sarcasm checks.

A Modest Proposal is here (http://www.uoregon.edu/~rbear/modest.html). An absolutely inspired response to the anti-Irish prejudices Swift saw in the England of his day.

Mystic Muse
2009-09-01, 02:39 AM
Just like Threat...

Original Q's answer. You need to take a +5 LA class with no features to get this class gimped. Str penalty won't be gimping it. Or you can take this class in a gestalt game as a single class. That would get it close to balance.

either both me AND my GM are severely underestimating this class or you're severely overestimating it.

more damage. SO WHAT?! that's the point of a melee class.
+10 AC and fort save at level 20. Is that REALLY so bad? And immunity to mind effects? big deal. There are other easy ways to kill something with spells.
double damage. Wizards and some races can still take a melee class out before they get the oppurtunity to use this. LA+5 would destroy this.

Doc Roc
2009-09-01, 02:40 AM
In a similar vein, I had someone tell me that my test of spite rules effectively nerfed wizards by making specialization too difficult.


:: sob ::

I think you'll be fine as a small char. Please let me know if it works out okay.

ericgrau
2009-09-01, 02:52 AM
A +16 does not "fix" a non-caster class to "catch up" with casters. It's just silly and bad to even consider. Period. Bad is bad. Another thing being bad doesn't make this good. If casters really did walk into fights and say "I win regardless of die roll, with unlimited uses per day" then the solution is to ban casters. Because then the game is boring b/c nothing at all even has a chance of working. But I've never actually seen a problem that great.

It's like... a ninja that flips out and kills an army. Ninjas may be cool and people may say that it happens all the time, but I just don't buy it. Not in reality anyway. The better explanation is that it's just exaggeration b/c ninjas are popular. And casters.

Doc Roc
2009-09-01, 02:57 AM
But I've never actually seen a problem that great.

Pray, kind sir, step into my labooooooooooooraaaaaaatory!

Kylarra
2009-09-01, 02:59 AM
Pray, kind sir, step into my labooooooooooooraaaaaaatory!
He probably means in his games themselves, rather than in theory...


I hope.

Eloel
2009-09-01, 03:18 AM
Melee already does stupendous amounts of damage. Ever heard of Ubercharger?
Buffing them more on the damage-department won't do anyone any good, it'll just make all martial classes but the broken few (read: Threat), obsolete. Suddenly everyone is a Threat. And then what will happen? Will you give +4/level to a new class, which everyone will adopt?

You're not getting martial classes close to caster ones. A martial character that manages to hit a caster already kills the caster. It's just that the caster has around 1000 ways of not getting hit by the martial character. Buffing martiality makes no sense, since Ubercharger is already at the point where it can oneshot anything that has ever existed with a single blow. It's just that it'll never even get that close to a caster.

Asheram
2009-09-01, 03:22 AM
This class is poorly named.

Check here for a hint of what it ought to be called.

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r13/x-men_universe/pictures_villains%20of%20the%20x-men/Juggernaut/Juggernaut2.jpg



... Seriously! It've got all the traits correct! Except that it can actually wear armor on top of all that.

Doc Roc
2009-09-01, 03:36 AM
You're not getting martial classes close to caster ones. A martial character that manages to hit a caster already kills the caster. It's just that the caster has around 1000 ways of not getting hit by the martial character. Buffing martiality makes no sense, since Ubercharger is already at the point where it can oneshot anything that has ever existed with a single blow. It's just that it'll never even get that close to a caster.

Unless it's backed by a skilled caster. :: gestures :: Which is.... Yeah. Not how you want things to work.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-09-01, 09:13 AM
To answer the OP's question:

A -2 Strength penalty will not make or break this class by any means. It will just mean you deal slightly less damage than you otherwise would.

That said, there are a few problems with this class that I'll point out, although it's nowhere near as bad as people are making it out to be. I know your DM allowed it, but here are some things which I would politely ask you to consider.

While Numb is a decent ability, the +10 bonus to Fortitude saves on top of a good Fortitude save progression is just to much, as is such a large Natural Armor bonus on a class with a decent armor proficiency. I'd recommend changing this to one of the following: replace the Numb bonus with a flat 1 for 1 Damage Reduction (so 1/- at second level, up to 10/- at 20th level), or alternate either Natural Armor or Fortitude save bonuses with Damage Reduction every 2th level (starting at +1 Natural Armor at 2nd and Damage Reduction 1/- at 4th, up to +5 Natural Armor and Damage Reduction 5/- at 20th). Other possibilities include Damage Reduction and Fast Healing (granted in that order, both capping out at 5) or any combination of Damage Reduction, Fast Healing, Natural Armor, or a small bonus to Fortitude saves.

Merciless is a poor ability, since it renders Mighty Blow useless and is also overpowered when things like Power Attack or Leap Attack come into play. I'd change the name to Greater Mighty Blow and make it read as follows: When you declare an attack to be a Mighty Blow, you deal additional damage equal to your Character Level plus your Strength Modifier, rather than just your Strength Modifier.

Then, at 17th level, add in Supreme Mighty Blow: When you declare an attack to be a Mighty Blow, you deal additional damage equal to twice your Character Level plus your Strength Modifier, rather than just your Strength modifier.

I'd also (to prevent a strange Nova effect) grant Mighty Blow 1/encounter (or perhaps 2/encounter) at 1st level, with an additional use per encounter every 3 or 4 or 5 levels (capping out at either 7/encounter, 6/encounter or 5/encounter), and limit it to once per round. That way you can get away with adding abilities that give you a bonus to hit when you use Mighty Blow, the ability to ignore Damage Reduction and/or Hardness, or perhaps threaten to Stun, Daze, knock aside, or Knock Prone opponents if they fail a Fortitude save. Variety is the spice of life, after all. Give yourself options.

Unnatural Force needs to go, completely. Counting yourself as a size category larger would be good...but that's where it stops. Anything that gets up to a +16 bonus (BEFORE FEATS) ensures that you win every Grapple, Trip, Bullrush, Overrun, and Trample check you ever make. That's a little to good. Also, just because you've really tough doesn't mean the dragon is physically unable to eat you. If anything, I'd change this ability to function for the following: Bull Rushing, Overrunning, and Breaking Objects. Why? Bull Rushing doesn't do damage. Overrunning allows a choice: attack and be trampled, or sidestep and allow him to continue. Breaking Objects is just fun. Avoid giving it Trample: with that huge bonus, you can't stop him, and unbeatable things aren't fun to hand out to people.

On second thought, what about Unstoppable Force? Such an ability grants you an increasing bonus to RESIST Trip attempts and Grapples, a bonus ON ALL Bull Rushes, Overruns, and Breaking Objects, and perhaps immunity to Paralysis, Slow effects, Dazing, Stunning, Immobilization, and Petrification. The long and short of it? Nothing can restrain you, although the ability doesn't give you powerful enough attack options to be very overpowered.

I have no problem with the Mindblank style effect. Other things get that, and it has been proven to not be tremendously overpowered.

All things considered, this class as written is unacceptable, only because it's TO GOOD at the few things it does. The above corrections fix that, and this gives you some leeway to add new abilities, as if the "to good" aspect is fixed, the class can actually get a little boost in other areas.

Myou
2009-09-01, 09:45 AM
Mmmm, the class picture is so hot. <3

But the actual class is poorly named rubbish.

Person_Man
2009-09-01, 10:27 AM
Can somebody spoiler the class? I'm blocked at work. Thx.

Eloel
2009-09-01, 10:35 AM
Here is the class
Threat

A threat is someone who fights brutally, and does not back down from a challenge. They are steel-minded individuals who can destroy all in their path, breaking bones and shattering rock alike. A threat is a vicious warrior who can be compared to a pit fighter, considering that they pull no punches. Though, in the process of getting in the thick of a battle, they learn to turn off the pain receptors in their brain, and become numb to the harm that befalls them. A threat is exactly what their namesake implies, they are threatening.
[edit] Making a Threat

A threat is a front line combatant above all else, one who can destroy his enemies with unsettling ease, and who can hold an enemy in their place with a force that few can muster. They are warriors who can crush fortifications and enemies alike, given they have enough time to do so. A threat is a feared force upon the battlefield, and rightfully so, for they can strike things with a force that is rarely ever seen.

Abilities: Strength is the first and most important ability score to a threat, since it determines the threats ability to put out damage. Next in order of importance to a threat comes Constitution, so that the threat can have enough hit points to survive long enough to put out some major damage. Next comes Dexterity, so that the threat can up his AC, allowing himself to survive longer. Lastly, Wisdom, Intelligence, and Charisma all are of the least importance to a threat. Though, Wisdom could be favored to cover this classes bad Will save, and both Intelligence and Charisma could help a threat to have some skill-based ability.

Races: Any.

Alignment: Any.

Starting Gold: 3d610 gp (105 gp).

Starting Age: Simple, As rogue.
Table: The Threat

Hit Die: d12
Level Base
Attack Bonus Saving Throws Special
Fort Ref Will
1st +1 +2 +2 +0 Fearless, Mighty Blow
2nd +2 +3 +3 +0 Numb +1
3rd +3 +3 +3 +1 Uncanny Dodge (Ex)
4th +4 +4 +4 +1 Numb +2
5th +5 +4 +4 +1 Unnatural Force (Ex)
6th +6/+1 +5 +5 +2 Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex), Numb +3
7th +7/+2 +5 +5 +2 Titanic Strength (Ex)
8th +8/+3 +6 +6 +2 Numb +4
9th +9/+4 +6 +6 +3 Merciless
10th +10/+5 +7 +7 +3 Improved Unnatural Force (Ex), Numb +5
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +7 +3 Endure (Ex)
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +8 +4 Numb +6
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +8 +4 Unnatural Dodge (Ex)
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +9 +4 Great Titanic Strength (Ex), Numb +7
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +9 +5 Greater Unnatural Force (Ex)
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +10 +5 Numb +8
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +5 Stubborn
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +6 Numb +9
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +6 Unbreakable (Ex)
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +6 Mighty Unnatural Force (Ex), Numb +10

Class Skills (4 + Int modifier per level, 4 at 1st level)
Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Diplomacy (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex).
[edit] Class Features

All of the following are class features of the threat.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A threat is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light, medium armor, and shields, but not tower shields.

Fearless: A threat is someone is simply someone who doesn't flinch, no matter what they are faced with. A threat is immune to all fear effects.

Mighty Blow: Threats are dangerous warriors, who can devastate even the most resolute defense, and slaughter even the more practiced veterans. A number of times per day equal to twice his threat level, a threat may declare any single melee attack he makes to be a 'mighty blow'. A mighty blow is treated as a normal attack in all respects, except for the fact that it deals untyped bonus damage equal to the threats Strength modifier, this bonus damage stacks with the normal damage that would be derived from the threats Strength score. A threat may declare multiple attacks in a single round as mighty blows, but he cannot gain the benifit of a mighty blow more than once on a single attack.

Numb: As a threat grows more accustomed to battle, he begins to grow unfeeling, and numb to the things that seek to kill him. At second level, a threat gains a +1 resistance bonus to his Fortitude save and a +1 enhancement bonus to his natural armor (treat a character that has no natural armor as merely having +0 natural armor). This resistance bonus to the threats Fortitude save and enhancement bonus to his natural armor increases by an additional +1 every even level after second (4th, 6th, 8th, etc.).

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A threats heart rests upon the battlefield, and he can always be ready for something to come at him. Starting at third level, a threat can react to danger before his senses would normally allow him to do so. He retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.

If a threat already has uncanny dodge from a different class he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.

Unnatural Force (Ex): Threats don't let things past them, now matter big they may be, or think they are. At fifth level a threat is considered one size category larger for the purpose of opposed rolls on bull rush, grapple, overrun, and trip checks and for qualifying against special attacks that can only be used against opponents of a certain size category (such as improved grab or trample). If this ability increases the threats effective size past colossal, then the threat gains an addition +4 to their opposed rolls on bull rush, grapple, overrun, and trip checks for each size category larger than colossal he is considered.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A threat can feel the sway of a batlefield, and can feel when something is coming at him, no matter where it is coming from. A threat of sixth level or higher can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking him, unless the rogue has at least four more rogue levels than the threat.

Titanic Strength (Ex): A threat eventually grows so strong, that he can swing weapons with enough force to tear apart virtually anything with a single strike. At seventh level, any weapon a threat wields deals damage as though it were one size category larger. The weapon is not actually larger and therefore is still treated as a weapon of its original size category. This increase in damage only applies if the weapon is in the hands of the threat.

Merciless: Threats eventually learn to rip through their enemies with so much force, that they barely ever get back up. At ninth level, a threat gains the ability to, after declaring an attack to be a mighty blow, expend a single additional use of his mighty blow ability. If the threat chooses to do so, then that attack deals double damage, in addition to the normal benifit of an attack being a mighty blow.

Improved Unnatural Force (Ex): A threat can stop things that others would find impossible to so much as challenge. At tenth level a threat is considered two size categories larger for the purpose of opposed rolls on bull rush, grapple, overrun, and trip checks and for qualifying against special attacks that can only be used against opponents of a certain size category (such as improved grab or trample). If this ability increases the threats effective size past colossal, then the threat gains an addition +4 to their opposed rolls on bull rush, grapple, overrun, and trip checks for each size category larger than colossal he is considered.

Endure (Ex): As a threat grows, he slowly learns to ignore the extremes of existance, from the icy cold depths of the artic, to the boiling heat of the desert. At eleventh level an impediment is considered always under the effect of an endure elements spell.

Unnatural Dodge (Ex): Threats are pit fighters, and to be a pit fighter, you must sometimes move in ways that few can manage. Starting at thirteenth level, any time that a threat is denied his Dexterity to his AC (such as he would be if he was stunned or blinded), he gains an instinct bonus to AC equal to his Dexterity modifier. He only gains this instinct bonus to AC if his Dexterity modifier is actually denied, and not if he manages to retain it to his AC. Take note that the threat is still considered having been denied his Dexterity mod to his AC, seeing as he doesn't actually retain his Dexterity mod in all situations.

Great Titanic Strength (Ex): A threat's strength is nothing to trifle with, seeing as it can fell even the most veteran warriors in single blows. At fourteenth level, any weapon a threat wields deals damage as though it were two size categories larger. The weapon is not actually larger and therefore is still treated as a weapon of its original size category. This increase in damage only applies if the weapon is in the hands of the threat.

Greater Unnatural Force (Ex): A threat is someone who can, eventually, stop things that he shouldn't actually even be able to imagine he can stop. At fifteenth level a threat is considered three size categories larger for the purpose of opposed rolls on bull rush, grapple, overrun, and trip checks and for qualifying against special attacks that can only be used against opponents of a certain size category (such as improved grab or trample). If this ability increases the threats effective size past colossal, then the threat gains an addition +4 to their opposed rolls on bull rush, grapple, overrun, and trip checks for each size category larger than colossal he is considered.

Stubborn: At seventeenth level, a threats mind becomes iron-clad, and it seems that nothing can penetrate his titanic force of will, making him immune to all mind-affecting effects.

Unbreakable (Ex): Threats are warriors who, at the higher end of their training, become nearly invincible, and gain the ability to mentally force themselves through any form of pain. At nineteenth level, a threat gains immunity to nonlethal damage, with only one exception: if a threat has regeneration of any kind, then he still takes nonlethal damage that would normally be lethal damage if it weren't for the regeneration.

Mighty Unnatural Force (Ex): A threat can stand up to anything, he can brawl with anything, he can tear down anything, no matter how massive it may be. At twentieth level a threat is considered four size categories larger for the purpose of opposed rolls on bull rush, grapple, overrun, and trip checks and for qualifying against special attacks that can only be used against opponents of a certain size category (such as improved grab or trample). If this ability increases the threats effective size past colossal, then the threat gains an addition +4 to their opposed rolls on bull rush, grapple, overrun, and trip checks for each size category larger than colossal he is considered.

Asheram
2009-09-01, 10:38 AM
(Cut out for convenience)

I have no problem with the Mindblank style effect. Other things get that, and it has been proven to not be tremendously overpowered.



I liked the fix you proposed, but I can't really agree with this, on the original class or the fix.
Good Fort, good Ref and immune to mind affecting? Along with damage reduction and bonus armor?

Person_Man
2009-09-01, 11:59 AM
The Threat class abilities are oddly worded.

The large number of Mighty Blow uses mechanic (2 uses per Threat level) seems like pointless bookkeeping, and the whole double Str thing (2.5 with a two handed weapon?) seems a bit open for abuse. I would just let them add their Con score to damage with melee and attacks, and make it a higher level ability (maybe ECL 4+ish).

For Unnatural Force, he should just grow one size category X times per day, and make it a Psi-like or Spell-like ability so that it doesn't stack with Enlarge Person or Expansion (assuming you use transparency rules). As he increases in levels, he can increase in additional size categories, up to a maximum of Colossal.

Unnatural Dodge seems really confusing. Why not just say "You cannot be denied your Dexterity bonus to AC unless you are paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise helpless."

Stubborn is a double edged sword. You're essentially immune to the Enchantment School and Telepathy Discipline, but you're also immune to Morale effects (Bard, Marshal, Dragon Shaman). You might want to make it continuous Mind Blank, or immunity to all Enchantment effects, or immunity to all Compulsion effects (which would be a lower level ability).

Unbreakable is confusing. Why not just give them Regeneration 1?

Krimm_Blackleaf
2009-09-01, 12:00 PM
Thread no. 123456. :smallbiggrin:

Okay I'm leaving now, sorry.

Doc Roc
2009-09-01, 12:02 PM
Thread no. 123456. :smallbiggrin:

Okay I'm leaving now, sorry.

One of these days, I'm going to grok your jokes.

Edit: Today is that day. That's pretty weird.

Myou
2009-09-01, 12:14 PM
Thread no. 123456. :smallbiggrin:

Okay I'm leaving now, sorry.

I don't get it. D:

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-01, 12:20 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123456&page=2


http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123456&page=2

Zincorium
2009-09-01, 12:34 PM
I don't get it. D:

This is the one hundred and twenty three thousanth, four hundred and fifty sixth thread. Thus, 123456.

Check the URL bar for confirmation.

Lord Herman
2009-09-02, 04:12 PM
Yay, 123456th thread! :smallbiggrin:

*goes off to look up other interesting thread numbers*

Myrmex
2009-09-02, 04:34 PM
That class is made of FAIL. Seriously though, +16 to all combat-checks at L20?
If you could stack feats (and you can't...), that's equal to 16 feats (Improved Grapple/Trip/Bull Rush/Overrun x4). And you can do double damage 40 times/day too. Oh, you're immune to anything mind-effecting as well. +10 to Fort & Natural Armor?...

This class is basically 3 classes rolled into 1, with LA-requiring abilities added for fun. Something akin to Lightning Warrior.

LoL. Right. Why do you hate non-casters? I mean, you only need 3 spells to do any of those as a caster, out of probably a pool of 20 or so that will replicate the same abilities.


Melee already does stupendous amounts of damage. Ever heard of Ubercharger?
Buffing them more on the damage-department won't do anyone any good, it'll just make all martial classes but the broken few (read: Threat), obsolete. Suddenly everyone is a Threat. And then what will happen? Will you give +4/level to a new class, which everyone will adopt?

You're not getting martial classes close to caster ones. A martial character that manages to hit a caster already kills the caster. It's just that the caster has around 1000 ways of not getting hit by the martial character. Buffing martiality makes no sense, since Ubercharger is already at the point where it can oneshot anything that has ever existed with a single blow. It's just that it'll never even get that close to a caster.

Holy Litany of Logical Fallacies, Batman!



...ok, so it's not literally a litany. More like a showcase.



I liked the fix you proposed, but I can't really agree with this, on the original class or the fix.
Good Fort, good Ref and immune to mind affecting? Along with damage reduction and bonus armor?

Are you questioning it because you hate to give non-casters nice things?

Myou
2009-09-02, 04:44 PM
This is the one hundred and twenty three thousanth, four hundred and fifty sixth thread. Thus, 123456.

Check the URL bar for confirmation.

Doh! I should have got that. xD

Asheram
2009-09-02, 05:33 PM
Are you questioning it because you hate to give non-casters nice things?

Nevermind me. If you think it's alright, then it might just be me nitpicking.
Try playing this class with a Warforged, btw. Might get some interesting results.
Just a thought.

Myrmex
2009-09-02, 06:13 PM
Nevermind me. If you think it's alright, then it might just be me nitpicking.
Try playing this class with a Warforged, btw. Might get some interesting results.
Just a thought.

I'm just saying you can get all those with a handful of spells. They're quite trivial abilities.

People need to stop comparing homebrew melee classes to existing melee, and instead compare it to existing casters (like druids and clerics), unless they have house ruled down casters' powerfulness.

Indon
2009-09-02, 06:54 PM
You should instead go about reducing Wizard. They're broken beyond belief, matching them will make the concept of balance completely destroyed.

No.

DMs have total control over environment/player balance. Inter-party balance is thus far more critical.

That said, the class is only Tier 3 at best. Its' major class features consist of doing very high damage with attacks, which a Fighter with a set of feats can do better and more consistently, and actually allowing them to effectively Bull Rush/Grapple/etc some high-level opponents.

The defensive options are quite potent, but limited in application, and not comparable to an array of spell defenses, instead more comparable to an array of passive defenses - and even then, the Threat isn't quite as survivable as the Monk.

It's perfectly balanced in a team with classes like the Psion or Sorceror, but make sure the group optimizes well, since most of this classes' power doesn't require good build choices.

The Threat epic progression isn't very consistent with that of published classes, though. Epic classes don't get additional listed skills, they get feats that function as such.


Anything that gets up to a +16 bonus (BEFORE FEATS) ensures that you win every Grapple, Trip, Bullrush, Overrun, and Trample check you ever make. That's a little to good.

Without it, most of those tactics aren't even usable against sufficiently large enemies.

Extremely large high-level enemies will be able to face up just fine against such attacks, and smaller high-level enemies will have SLA's or other abilities which probably allow them to bypass the attacks completely.

To answer the thread question: The class is just fine with a -2 or even a -4 strength penalty. Just have a character with strength 14 (give or take 2) to start out and you'll do well.

Edit: Oh, and take Improved Unarmed Strike with him.