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Jane_Smith
2009-09-02, 06:34 AM
Version 2.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~The Blackguard~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/8114/fantasywarrior271308079.jpg (http://img515.imageshack.us/i/fantasywarrior271308079.jpg/)

The Blackguard
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|1st|2nd|3rd|4th
1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0| Dark Blessing, Mark of Damnation, Spells|0|-|-|-
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0| Power of the Seven, Scarred Mind|1|-|-|-
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1||1|-|-|-
4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1| Fiendish Power|2|0|-|-
5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1| Power of the Seven|2|1|-|-
6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+2||3|1|-|-
7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+2| Sight of the Abyss|3|2|0|-
8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+2| Power of the Seven|4|2|1|-
9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+3||4|3|1|-
10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+3|
+3| Fiendish Power|5|3|2|0
11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+3| Power of the Seven|5|4|2|1
12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+4||6|4|3|1
13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+4|
+4| Repellent Flesh|6|5|3|2
14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+4|
+4| Power of the Seven|6|5|4|2
15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+5|
+5||6|6|4|3
16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+5|
+5| Fiendish Power|6|6|5|3
17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+5|Power of the Seven|6|6|5|4
18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+6||6|6|6|4
19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+6| Culling the Weak|6|6|6|5
20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+6| Power of the Seven|6|6|6|5
[/table]


Alignment: Any evil.
Hit Dice: d10.
Base Attack: Good.
Saves: Good Fortitude, Poor Reflex, Poor Willpower.

Class Skills
The blackguard’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Spellcraft (Int).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) x 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier.


Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Blackguards are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor, and with shields (but not tower shields).

Spells: A blackguard has the ability to cast a small number of divine spells. To cast a blackguard spell, a blackguard must have a Charisma score of at least 10 + the spell’s level, so a blackguard with a Charisma of 10 or lower cannot cast these spells.

Blackguard bonus spells are based on Charisma, and saving throws against these spells have a DC of 10 + spell level + the blackguard’s Charisma modifier. The blackguard’s spell list appears below. A blackguard has access to any spell on the list and can freely choose which to prepare, just as a cleric. A blackguard prepares and casts spells just as a cleric does (though a blackguard cannot spontaneously cast inflict spells).

Mark of Damnation (Ex): When a character takes his first level into the blackguard class, he gains a mark of the Infernal or Demonic master he serves, forevering proving to all his damned exsistance to walk the earth as a agent of evil. This mark cannot be healed or removed by any means as long as the blackguards fiendish patron lives. This mark could be subtle in a hard to see area, or seared by an unseen hand of fire along a more visable area, such as the face or hands (player's choice). When this mark is made visable to evil outsiders of the same alignment as the blackguard's patron, or known agents of his patron, the blackguard gains a +1 circumstance bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Gather Information checks when dealing with them for every two levels of blackguard he possesses (minimum +1).

As long as the mark remains on the blackguard, he sheds an aura of evil equal to his blackguard level. He cannot hide this aura by any means other then magic or some other unnatural means. This mark also acts as the blackguards Holy Symbol as a focus for some of his spells.

Dark Blessing (Ex): A 1st level, the blackguard is imbued by the dark powers of his patron, just a taste of the power that will one day be at his command. He applies his Charisma modifier or his class level as a unholy bonus on all saving throws, whichever is lower.

Scarred Mind (Ex): At 2nd level, the blackguard has received dreams and visions of what awaits him in hell should he fail his master, and no mortal torment can possibly compare to the hellish exsistance he might one day live out for eternity. His patron's never ending whispers of eternal pain and suffering push the blackguard on past the brink of other mens endurance. Whenever the blackguard makes a successful Fortitude or Will saving throw against a spell or ability with a partial effect even on a successful save, the blackguard completely negates the effect.

Power of the Seven: At 2nd level, the blackguard gains his first Sin Power from the list below. However, this choice is permenant and cannot be changed later once selected. Unless otherwise stated, these powers can be activated as a swift action, and maintained for a number of rounds each day equal to the blackguards level. The rounds need not be consecutive. Abilities share the same number of rounds available each day (Example - a 10th level blackguard only has 10 rounds each day to divide the use between his powers). The blackguard gains a new power at 5th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th and 20th level.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Lust (Su): The blackguard can invoke the lust in others, causing them to lose their self control. The blackguard may select a single enemy, and they must make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 blackguard level + Cha bonus). If the save fails, this ability turns the creature chaotic evil for 1 minute per blackguard level. The subject is consumed with selfish lust, making it act with its new selfish, bloodthirsty, and cruel outlook on all things for the duration of the effect. Creatures effected by this ability that were once hostile or unfriedly with the blackguard pay no heed to him, seeing him as indifferent at the worse. However, the subject retains whatever outlooks or allegiances it had before, so long as they do not conflict with the new alignment. For example, they might not immediately turn on their companions for no apparent reason, particularly in the middle of combat when they are fighting on the same side, unless they are sure such a betryal will benefit them.

Wrath (Ex): The blackguard can amplify his fury and hatred to gain powerful combat abilities. Bathing his soul with the raw power of hatred, the blackguard gains a unholy bonus on his attack and damage rolls and damage reduction 1/- equal to his Charisma modifier or his blackguard level, whichever is lower, for each round he maintains this effect. In addition, when making a full attack action while this ability is in effect grants the blackguard an additional attack as his full attack bonus. In addition, any time the blackguard deals enough melee damage to drop or kill a living creature, even when this ability is not active, he gains an additional round each day of his Power of the Seven. This additional round only lasts for one day or until consumed, and is not permanent.

Envy (Su): The blackguard can possess a creature with an overwhelming desire to have what others possess. By using one of his rounds each day of his Power of the Seven, he can target a single creature within 30 feet he has line of sight to and has an intelligence of 3 or higher to have an overwhelming, uncontrollable urge to take something the blackguard designates, even by violent means. They must make a will save (DC 10 + 1/2 blackguard level + Cha bonus) or become obessed with the object. They will attempt to approach the object by any means other then a obvious suicidal path and take it into their possession and protect it. If a creature attempts to bar their path or stop them in any way, the target becomes hostile to it and will attempt to bypass them violently if nessicary. Each round it would strike someone in this manner, it is granted a new will save to end this effect. This ability lasts for 1 minute per blackguard level. Both the blackguard and the target must know or have seen the object clearly for this ability to work.

Pride (Su): The blackguard can imbue someone with an overwhelming sense of pride and accomplishment, to the point their own personal vanity and glory clouds their judgement. By using one of his rounds each day of his Power of the Seven, the blackguard can target a enemy within 30 feet. They must make a will save (DC 10 + 1/2 blackguard level + Cha bonus) or become incredibly prideful, suddenly finding everything to do to be in their favor or their in total control of the situation, even going as far as making foolish maneuvers to calling their allies back or performing risky actions that might be considered suicidal to the unskilled. For 1 minute per blackguard level on a failed save, the creature takes a -2 penalty on all ability checks, attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and skill checks. In addition, all attacks made against the target gain a +2 bonus.

Gluttony (Ex): The blackguard embraces his true hunger, bathing himself in the power of Gluttony to gain a taste for the most taboo of food - living flesh. The blackguard's teeth grow sharp and vampirelike while this ability is maintained, allowing him to make a Bite attack as a natural attack. The blackguards bite attack deals 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if small, 1d8 if large). Each time the blackguard successfully deals damage to a living creature with a constitution score with this ability, he deals 1d4 points of Constitution damage and gains 1 temporary hit point for each point of successful Constitution damage the victum takes. This temporary health is permenant until used, and stacks with itself up to a maximum amount equal to the blackguards Constitution score. In addition, the blackguard may regain a single round each day of his Power of the Seven by spending one hour to consume a recently living creature, even when this ability is not active. This additional round only lasts for one day or until consumed, and is not permanent.

Greed (Su): The blackguard's soul becomes like a neverending void, constantly seeking more and more to satisfy is neverending hunger for power. This powerful sense of greed strechs itself to unnatural limits, going as far to snatch beneficial magic from the air for his own personal uses. Once per round, for each round the blackguard maintains this power, everytime a spell or spell-like ability is cast within, has a line of effect threw, or ends somewhere within 30 feet of the blackguard, he may attempt to steal the spell and force it upon himself. The blackguard makes a special level check (1d20 + blackguard levels + his Charisma bonus) applying his charisma bonus to the result against a DC equal to 10 + the casters caster level + the casters spellcasting ability bonus. If the blackguard's check succeeds, the spell targets, or is centered, on himself instead of its original destination, even if doing so would extend the range of the spell beyond the maximum limit the spellcaster could cast it (For example, if a cleric were to cast Cure Critical Wounds on a fighter 15 feet away from the blackguard, and the blackguard succeeds on his check, he gains the benefits of the spell, despite it being a touch range spell). In addition, each time the blackguard successfully steals a spell onto himself in this way, he gains a number of rounds each day of his Power of the Seven equal to the level of the spell he stole. This additional round only lasts for one day or until consumed, and is not permanent.

Sloth (Su): The blackguard can force a creature to not even want to act, suddenly become docile, hopeless, and lazy, even losing the will to keep breathing. By spending one of his rounds each day of his Power of the Seven, he can target a single creature within 30 feet he has line of sight to and has an intelligence of 3 or higher to be overwhelmed by lazyness and fatigue. The target must make a will save (DC 10 + 1/2 blackguard level + cha bonus) or become slowed, like the spell, for a number of rounds equal to the blackguards level. In addition, the target becomes Fatigued for the duration of the effect. A successful save negates the slow effect, but the target is still fatigued for 1 round.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Fiendish Power (Ex): At 4th level, the Blackguard may choose one of the benefits listed below. The blackguard may select an additional power at 10th and 16th level. Each ability may be selected multiple times, but bonuses do not stack. Each time an ability is reselected, you may choose a different benefit from its list.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Might: The blackguard gains a +1 unholy bonus to Str, Con, or Dex.

Clarity: The blackguard gains a +1 unholy bonus to Int, Wis or Cha.

Prowess: The blackguard gains a [Vile] feat as a bonus feat. He must still meet the prerequisites.

Sight: The blackguard gains the ability to see threw all forms of darkness, magical or otherwise, up to a range of 60 feet. If you select this ability again, the range increases by 30 feet each time.

Flesh: The blackguard gains a +2 natural armor bonus, Damage Reduction 3/good, or Fast Healing 1.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sight Of the Abyss (Su): At 7th level, the blackguard can send the visions from his fiendish patron into the mind of a enemy for a short time. This power renders them unnerved, trembling, and possibly even helpless. As a standard action, the blackguard can look into the eyes of a creature within 30 feet and line of sight with an intelligence of 3 or higher and send visions of its damnation into its mind. The creature must make a will save (DC 10 + 1/2 blackguard level + Cha bonus) or become Shaken for 1 round. At 8th level, the creature becomes shaken for 1d4+1 rounds. At 14th level, the blackguard can effect all enemys within a 30 feet cone in front of him instead of a single target. At 20th level, enemys who fail their saving throw become panicked for 1d4+1 rounds, and shaken for 1d4+1 rounds if they succeed on their save. Evil outsiders and other blackguards are immune to this ability. This is a mind-affecting fear effect.

Repellent Flesh (Su): At 13th level, the blackguard is given an incredible protection against the spells of his enemys. Against the spells and spell-like abilities of good aligned creatures, the blackguard gains spell resistance equal to his class level + 11.

Culling the Weak (Su): At 19th level, the blackguard gains the ability to automatically apply the Unholy weapon qualities to any weapon he weilds, magical or otherwise, and for 1 round after he lets go, allowing him to make ranged attacks with this ability normally. In addition, all damage done by the Unholy quality alone becomes permenant and cannot be restored by natural or magical means. The creature takes 1 damage each time it performs a strenuious action while it has at least 1 point of damage caused by this effect remaining. The creature may only be healed normally after a successful Break Enchantment, Limited Wish, Wish, or Miracle spell has been applied to it.


~~~~~Blackguard Spell List

1st level -- Accelerated Movement, Babau Slime, Bestow Wound, Blade of Blood, Blades of Fire, Blood Blister, Burning Rage, Cause Fear, Charm Person, Currupt Weapon, Corrosive Grasp, Death Grimace, Doom, Ebon Eyes, Glimpse of Fear, Hypnotisim, Inflict Light Wounds, Raging Flame, Superior Darkvision, Magic Weapon, Summon Monster I.

2nd level -- Adrenaline Surge, Animalistic Power, Balor Nimbus, Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, Burning Sword, Claws of Darkness, Darkness, Death Armor, Death Kneel, Combust, Eagle's Splendor, False Life, Infernal Wounds, Inflict Moderate Wounds, Rapid Strikes, Sadism, Scare, Scorch, Shatter, Summon Monster II, Unheavened, Wraithstrike.

3rd level -- Blacklight, Blade of Pain and Fear, Blood Siphon, Contagion, Contagion Ward, Control Darkness and Shadow, Deeper Darkness, Deeper Darkvision, Displacement, Hesitate, Inevitable Defeat, Inflict Serious Wounds, Protection from Elements, Shadow Phase, Spectral Weapon, Suggestion, Summon Monster III.

4th level -- Abyssal Might, Bane Weapon, Beckon Person, Bestow Curse, Blast of Flame, Blood Drinker, Bone Spurs, Burning Blood, Crushing Despair, Distort Summons, Enervation, Fear, Freedom of Movement, Fiery Aura, Fire Shield, Fire Stride, Fire in the Blood, Ghost Storm, Hell's Power, Inflict Critical Wounds, Plague Carrier, Poison, Stop Heart, Summon Monster IV.

Jane_Smith
2009-09-02, 06:45 AM
I have apparently forgot the sin of Envy... I have no idea how to add that in, statistically, in any reasonable way except for some way to curse someone to try to get an object/person/etc by any means in a obessive rush.

Omegonthesane
2009-09-02, 06:54 AM
Spoiler the image, it's a page stretcher.

Also, get a real table for this class. The Guide to Homebrewing in this subforum has a stock one for a 20-level base class among other things.

Jane_Smith
2009-09-02, 07:07 AM
Um, tone down the rude fido. I asked for critique on the class, not for people to command me to change my posting style.

Edit: Their, happy now mr. soup nazi? >.>

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2009-09-02, 07:53 AM
Full armor profficiency AND spell casting at level 1?
Too many skills. Wrath may be too powerful. A rogue gets +1d6 if they flank, this guy, whom is built around being the one soaking up damage, gets it on whomever has hit him. Aura of Sloth should have a save.
Greedy Soul is just far too overpowered. As written, if an enemy Cleric decides to cast Bull's Strength on their ally, I automatically steal it. Not to mention I can then do it, on average 5 more times (assuming I have a 16 in CHA).
Lustful Soul needs a save.



Prideful Soul (Su): At 18th level, the blackguards pride knows no bounds. His overwhelming sense of self makes him immune to even the most powerful mind-affecting spells and effects. He gains a +4 morale bonus to all evil allies within 30 feet of himself against all such effects as well.

He gains a +4 bonus TO all evil allies? Does he get one, or does he grant one?

Omegonthesane
2009-09-02, 07:53 AM
Yes, that's much better, thanks. The thing is, if you want a class to be critiqued, it needs to be presented in a way that makes it easy to see. Page-stretching and improper tabulation really don't fit that description.

As for crowbaring Envy in, Green Ronin published a prestige class about 7 deadly sins back in 3.0 in The Unholy Warrior's Handbook. They handled the sin of envy as granting a power usable X times per day where X depended on when you took the power. Based on that here's a suggestion:

Envious Soul (Su)
A blackguard may inspire murderous envy in his enemies, sowing discord and strife. When this power is used, enemies within 30 feet must make a Will save equal to 10 + 1/2 the blackguard's class level + the blackguard's Charisma modifier. If they fail this save they immediately become Hostile towards their allies (as if they'd rolled really, really badly on Diplomacy) and count as raging (as Barbarian class feature). This effect lasts for one round per two character levels of the blackguard; victims do not become fatigued when it wears off, unlike with a normal barbarian rage. This power is a mind-affecting spell-like ability. Anyone who passes their save against it becomes immune to all usages of it for the next 24 hours. A blackguard cannot use this while he has Lustful Soul or Aura of Sloth active.

I'd make its uses per day a function of the blackguard's Charisma modifier, to match up with the other soul abilities, but it's really quite powerful against most NPC enemies (especially spellcasters) unless the DM is an ass.

Concerning the Patron ability: Unless it gives a mechanical effect, I'd make it flavour text, I don't like having fluff listed as if it's mechanics. That may just be me however.

vampire2948
2009-09-02, 08:17 AM
I like this class, but a few things that could be changed are:

Give it the Paladin's spellcasting progression.
Add saves for all the auras, especially greed.

I might try to use one of these in my upcoming campaign i'm DMing. Tis an interesting class.

Jane_Smith
2009-09-02, 08:58 AM
Paladins spellcasting progression and spell-list suck. I aint even lowering myself that low to even try it. <.< Did you notice I added like, 5x the amount of spells on the blackguard spell list? They had -crap- for spells. They even had cure spells.. I cant even wrap my mind around that one.

I like the envy idea... -adds-

Also, i was considering originally for Greedy Soul to only work on healing damage on the target - it would soak up all the healing the target would have received and given it to the blackguard. Then i figured benecifical spells... maybe a save would be required now. x.x The spellcaster casting the spell must make a will against a DC of 10 + 1/2 blackguard level + charisma bonus?

I dunno about giving auras having saves to resist - as is, im using Aura of Despair from the core 3.5 DMG Blackguard and renamed it Aura of Sloth. It didnt have a saving throw, either.

Lord_Gareth
2009-09-02, 09:05 AM
Umm - why, precisely, is lust evil? I realize it's sitting up there on the list of the Seven Deadlies (acting awkward and not really getting along with "the other guys"), but believe me when I say that Western culture is in the distinct minority on the topic of human sexuality; in most cultures, its' celebrated, revered, or even worshipped.

Person_Man
2009-09-02, 09:36 AM
I think the class is poorly paced. Your first 5 levels are ridiculously potent for that ECL. Full BAB, d10 hit die, 4 Skill point per level from a social/caster/Fighter list, spells, offensive and defensive special abilities, etc. Beyond level 7 though, when you get access to 4th level spells, there's really no reason to continue in the class. You get a few poorly scaled abilities and a few more spells per day, and even a few dead levels (which I hate).

My suggestion is that you change your spell progression to match the Paladin, move Greedy Soul to a higher level ability, and come up with a few more special abilities to fill in the dead space.

Omegonthesane
2009-09-02, 09:59 AM
Paladins spellcasting progression and spell-list suck. I aint even lowering myself that low to even try it. <.< Did you notice I added like, 5x the amount of spells on the blackguard spell list? They had -crap- for spells. They even had cure spells.. I cant even wrap my mind around that one.
Healing is not good. Healing is not evil. Healing is practical. Nothing more. And nothing less. The old blackguard had Cure spells so he could heal himself and his allies to prolong their evil crusade. An evil cleric works better in the evil healbot role, sure, but a divine caster with no healing ability may well feel odd to certain players.


I dunno about giving auras having saves to resist - as is, im using Aura of Despair from the core 3.5 DMG Blackguard and renamed it Aura of Sloth. It didnt have a saving throw, either.
Depends on the aura. There's a vast gulf between "you get a -2 on whatever category of rolls on a d20" and "you turn on your allies".


My suggestion is that you change your spell progression to match the Paladin,
She already rejected that. Maybe slowing down the spell progression would be a good idea - as it is, until 9th level Blackguard casts the same number of non-orison spells as a Cleric of the same level, with all other features better.


move Greedy Soul to a higher level ability, and come up with a few more special abilities to fill in the dead space.
New abilities are usually a good idea. Though, making things scale to Blackguard's class level instead of his character level might convince people to stay with the class... nah, they can get the same save mods from a +2 ring of charisma or whatever as from 2 whole class levels that way.

I'd also make Wrath come later. Like, at 3rd level so a comparable Rogue always does more bonus damage for SA than Blackguard for just being angry.


Umm - why, precisely, is lust evil? I realize it's sitting up there on the list of the Seven Deadlies (acting awkward and not really getting along with "the other guys"), but believe me when I say that Western culture is in the distinct minority on the topic of human sexuality; in most cultures, its' celebrated, revered, or even worshipped.
If you want a realistic moral explanation: It isn't evil. Not on its own. But neither is pride, or wrath, or sloth, or even greed - in moderation. Really, excess is what makes the seven deadlies moral failings, not their nature alone.
If you want a cynical historical explanation: The old Catholic Church didn't want anyone to get laid for any reason other than popping out more babies. :smallannoyed:

Cieyrin
2009-09-02, 10:36 AM
Does Wrath progress as the table or the text, as in one case you have Rogue sneak attack progression that's a bit overpowering and what the table says, which is a bit more reasonable, considering that it's a bit easier to meet the conditions of Wrath than it is with Sneak Attack or Sudden Strike. Putting it at the rate of Skirmish is reasonable, I'd say.

Otherwise, your Blackguard is on par with the 3.0 Psychic Warrior, which many would agree was a bit overpowering. If you want to keep the spellcasting power, I'd pull the BAB back to 3/4 and maybe the HD to d8. Some redistribution of abilities to un-front load the class and fill in gaps would probably be beneficial. As it currently is, I could see people taking just the first 5 levels and multiclassing out when the rate of feature acquisition drops off, which isn't a precedent you probably want.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

vampire2948
2009-09-02, 10:59 AM
Paladins spellcasting progression and spell-list suck. I aint even lowering myself that low to even try it. <.< Did you notice I added like, 5x the amount of spells on the blackguard spell list? They had -crap- for spells. They even had cure spells.. I cant even wrap my mind around that one.

They suck at castin' for a reason.. you've given the class full BAB, and various other things. You wanted to make a balanced class.

The Neoclassic
2009-09-02, 11:40 AM
Healing is not good. Healing is not evil. Healing is practical. Nothing more. And nothing less. The old blackguard had Cure spells so he could heal himself and his allies to prolong their evil crusade. An evil cleric works better in the evil healbot role, sure, but a divine caster with no healing ability may well feel odd to certain players.

Well, I don't see anything wrong with a divine caster who doesn't get divine spells. Odd? Yes. Not a good idea? Nah. If players don't like it, they can pick a different class! :smallbiggrin: However, you are entirely right that healing is neither good nor evil (though I guess a few people call it such? but I don't think anything in the rules suggests this, except for those confusing positive/negative channeling things for clerics...). Really, if a divine caster doesn't have healing, it should be because they are war/destruction-based, not because they are evil. Of course, you could use the former rationale for this case, but just keep that in mind. Heck, I could imagine a LG sunlight-y holy caster class , using divine magic to destroy and smite enemies much like a sorcerer uses their arcane magic, but lacking the ability to heal.

Ponce
2009-09-02, 11:59 AM
Ditch the spells, give it martial maneuvers.

It should be a PrC, you don't have enough material here to warrant 20 levels, you have lots of dead ones, though the class is -extremely- front-heavy.

Basically, it has all the problems of the Paladin.

The Neoclassic
2009-09-02, 12:06 PM
Ditch the spells, give it martial maneuvers.

It should be a PrC, you don't have enough material here to warrant 20 levels, you have lots of dead ones, though the class is -extremely- front-heavy.

Basically, it has all the problems of the Paladin.

Alternatively, ditch some of the really combaty/martial stuff and turn some of their spells into spell-like or supernatural abilities of various sorts (some of which could be useful in combat).

I entirely agree that this has too many dead levels though and is far too front heavy. I think a lot of players would just take the first five levels and then switch over to something else.

vampire2948
2009-09-02, 12:12 PM
Maybe give it some sort of ability that scales with its level?

Or else some sort of unique spellcasting system.

Perhaps similar to Death Knights from World of Warcraft? I'd like to see a class like that made.

Incase you're not familiar with those, Death Knights use a Runeblade [Perhaps give the class a free ancestral weapon-style feat [BoED] to use on a single weapon] and the weapon is inscribed with runes. The rules allow the Death Knight to cast various abilities, and the runes have a cooldown time before they can be used again.
They could gain more runes as they level, perhaps.

An example spell could be:


Empower Runeblade
Transmutation
Level: Blackguard 1
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Runeblade touched
Target: Runeblade touched
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless, object)
Runes: 1 Dark Rune [Names are up to you, of course]

Empower Runeblade gives a weapon a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. This enhancement bonus does stack with that gained from a weapon having the masterwork property.

Then you make the runes reset every say... five rounds, and write some spells for 'em.

Draz74
2009-09-02, 02:25 PM
Umm - why, precisely, is lust evil? I realize it's sitting up there on the list of the Seven Deadlies (acting awkward and not really getting along with "the other guys"), but believe me when I say that Western culture is in the distinct minority on the topic of human sexuality; in most cultures, its' celebrated, revered, or even worshipped.

Perhaps "lust" and "human sexuality" are not synonymous? (Much like "greed" and "capitalism" aren't.)

I think lust is a perfectly valid theme for a Blackguard class.

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2009-09-02, 08:47 PM
Ditch the spells, give it martial maneuvers.

It should be a PrC, you don't have enough material here to warrant 20 levels, you have lots of dead ones, though the class is -extremely- front-heavy.

Basically, it has all the problems of the Paladin.

It has one more dead level than the paladin.

Gorgondantess
2009-09-02, 09:38 PM
Hmmm... I actually like it, despite what these others may think of it. However, it suffers from one major problem: it is going to be very, very powerful at low levels, scale up quickly and then pretty much stop getting better. It doesn't scale linearly, it scales logarithmically.

deuxhero
2009-09-02, 10:41 PM
Holy dead levels Batman! You have 9 of them.

Jane_Smith
2009-09-03, 05:43 PM
That was just the first rough draft. About to shred this one up and rework it from the base up. Ill have my next version up soon.

Jane_Smith
2009-09-03, 09:10 PM
Version 2 is up. :D Also - id rather not rip off world of warcraft.. Plus, death knights are focused on, death and undead based spells and abilities. Blackguards serve demons and channel demonic energy from their fiendish patron (which acts like their 'god' like clerics gain power from theirs), so they have spells and abilities represented with Fire, Cold, Pain, Suffering, Domination, Chaos, Evil and Destruction.

Ponce
2009-09-03, 09:23 PM
A definite improvement over the first version.

Concerns:
-Still would like to see initiator levels rather than spell levels
-I think dark blessing should be moved to third level (don't want people dipping for 1 level just for dark blessing)
-Picking the sins is nice, but when you get all 7 anyway, all that means is that the 20th level capstone is the last sin that you really didn't want compared to the others, and it means that the sins are front-heavy (you get the ones you want early, and don't care as much about the later ones, might as well multiclass). I'd make it so you get a preset sin power at every point, with the better ones obviously being at the end (the problem here being that the sins aren't equal, but I still think its the better choice).

Toning back the will save, skills, and getting rid of some dead levels was a good move.

Jane_Smith
2009-09-03, 09:36 PM
Thing is;

I despise tome of battle and combat maneuvers. I refuse to use them, play them, or make anything with them out of sheer spite of to many abusive players who have ruined games ive been in using it, and my own veiw of the flavor of them. Its to oriental themed, for one thing. Swinging blades so fast they catch on fire? You move so fast time seems to stop? What the hell is this, a besm game?! NO! :smallfurious:

Combat maneuvers wouldnt give the proper feel to someone who sells their soul for mastery over the dark arts as a cheap and quick way to power. Only spells do. And i wanted them to be divine casters just because of how they channel the spells from their patron, not their own skills.

Dunno what an initiator level is?... But id rather not make this a prestige class because, plainly, if you can be a paladin early in your career, whats keeping you from being a fiend-serving bastard early in your career? Every sterotype of hero has an equal and opposite villian out their waiting for them.

Having all 7 gives you more flexibility to your skills. All of them are equal, as you said yourself, so even if you wait for lust or something to the last minute, it will still have the same potency as if you had taken at level 2. So, all it does really is just widen your mastery of the 7 sins by making a customized path to which ones you want to early. Also - i dislike the idea of a teir system. x.X All my homebrew uses "from a list" of equal abilities, or at least nearly equal.

shadowxknight
2009-09-03, 09:36 PM
Hmm I'm sort of a noob to homebrewing, but I think it would fit the flavor really well if the blackguard got a companion/mount from his liege.

Jane_Smith
2009-09-03, 09:40 PM
Leadership feat/cohort and/or buy a fiendish warhorse. >.>

But, in all seriousness? I made Animal Companion a feat. Theirs already a feat called Celestial Companion in book of exalted deeds - i can just make a fiendish version of it. Walla. Fiendish Warhorse animal companion with 2 feats - one of which is a Vile one you can get as a bonus feat via Fiendish Power.

Not like you were gonna get it at level one anyway! :P

Ponce
2009-09-03, 09:42 PM
Thing is;

I despise tome of battle and combat maneuvers. I refuse to use them, play them, or make anything with them out of sheer spite of to many abusive players who have ruined games ive been in using it, and my own veiw of the flavor of them. Its to oriental themed, for one thing. Swinging blades so fast they catch on fire? You move so fast time seems to stop? What the hell is this, a besm game?! NO! :smallfurious:

Combat maneuvers wouldnt give the proper feel to someone who sells their soul for mastery over the dark arts as a cheap and quick way to power. Only spells do. And i wanted them to be divine casters just because of how they channel the spells from their patron, not their own skills.

Dunno what an initiator level is?... But id rather not make this a prestige class because, plainly, if you can be a paladin early in your career, whats keeping you from being a fiend-serving bastard early in your career? Every sterotype of hero has an equal and opposite villian out their waiting for them.

Having all 7 gives you more flexibility to your skills. All of them are equal, as you said yourself, so even if you wait for lust or something to the last minute, it will still have the same potency as if you had taken at level 2. So, all it does really is just widen your mastery of the 7 sins by making a customized path to which ones you want to early. Also - i dislike the idea of a teir system. x.X All my homebrew uses "from a list" of equal abilities, or at least nearly equal.

Alright, I'll clam up about the ToB stuff if you really don't like it that much. Initiator level is just the mechanic for ToB.

I really think dark blessing should be moved to 3rd though.

And as for the 7 sins, again, you are going to pick what you feel are the best or most appropriate ones first, which means that your 20th level ability is less desirable than your 2nd level ability. This is really not a good thing, and arises from the fact that you select 7 times from a list of 7.

elliott20
2009-09-03, 11:39 PM
I wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment of ToB. While some of the maneuvers are clearly supernatural (desert wind and shadow hand), the rest, with proper fluff, can actually be described away as quite mundane. the time stands still thing, for example, is actually a common boxer phenomenon where boxers will often feel their perception of time slowing down during the matches.

Having said that, if you don't want to use it, you don't want to use it.

The class itself, by the way, has WICKED COOL flavor. But I just can't help but feel some of the abilities are just way too powerful. i.e. most of the seven sin abilities are incredibly potent and can in some instances be compared to some 9th level will save spells. (i.e. the auto-alignment change)

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-09-03, 11:47 PM
As one last point in favor of ToB, let me just quote Xefas, who put it quite well:


Character A focuses all his strength into a powerful blow, sacrificing his accuracy for a decisive swing.
Character B focuses all his strength into a powerful blow, sacrificing his accuracy for a decisive swing.

Which one just used the Power Attack feat, and which one just used the Mountain Hammer strike while in the Punishing Stance?

Character A swings his blade in a wide arc, cutting through one foe and cleaving into another.
Character B swings his blade in a wide arc, cutting through one foe and cleaving into another.

Which one just used the Cleave feat, and which one just used the Steel Wind strike?

Character A thrusts his blade forward, under his opponent's swing, twists his blade and pulls up, deftly wrenching his foe's blade out of his grip.
Character B thrusts his blade forward, under his opponent's swing, twists his blade and pulls up, deftly wrenching his foe's blade out of his grip.

Which one just used the Disarm action, and which one just used Disarming Strike?

Character A makes a running leap and thrusts both blades into his opponent.
Character B makes a running leap and thrusts both blades into his opponent.

Which one just used the Leap Attack and Two-Weapon Fighting feats, and which one used the Sudden Leap and Wolf Fang Strike maneuver?

Yeah, those damn Tome of Battle classes and their crazy magic we've never seen before 'cept in Anime. Such a massive difference, you can tell.

PumpkinEater
2009-09-04, 12:04 AM
At first I thought the same thing about the ToB, but then I realised most of the Supernatural stuff are the maneuvers from Desert Wind. Like the blade catching on fire. That, and the shadow-coating Shadow Hand maneuvers. It's actually a little oriental-themed in my opinion, because when I first thought about including it into a campaign, I thought about it being introduced from another continent. That was oriental themed. Which I generally don't use in campaigns. Which is why I decided not to use them this time around.

elliott20
2009-09-04, 03:26 AM
Alright guys, I think by quoting Xefas post, we've already made our point. Let's not derail this into another ToB thread.

I will restate that I feel the seven Sin powers are way too powerful. As cool as they are in intention, I just can't help but feel that they need to be calibrated somehow so that you don't end up with a 10th level character who essentially has mindrape.

Omegonthesane
2009-09-04, 04:57 AM
Show me an example where ToB has broken the game more than Wizard can at the same level pleez. :smallbiggrin:

On a more serious note, here's another suggestion from Unholy Warrior's Handbook. The PrC in there that I stole my Envy suggestion from, Champion of Gehenna, got more power from each sin depending on how high his level was when he chose it. Furthermore, each sin had a nasty drawback - you had to save against your own Sloth, for example, and Envy gave you a penalty to Charisma checks - which was waived if you chose a given sin in the last level of the class. Maybe I'll give actual mechanical suggestions rather than suggested design goals later.

Jane_Smith
2009-09-04, 12:19 PM
Enough about ToB. Period, no more. Seriously, im tired of people acting like its the bible for martial classes.

Your forgetting I want this class to have a strong -magical-, near-sorcerer theme, not a all-focused martial class. I mean, consider a fighter who decides to toss all his training (bonus feats) to weild the powers of hell at his command instead..

If you want to do that stuff, like Cleave, then take the goddam FEATS and be done with it! Or use the spells that give you more combat mobility, like Wraith Strike and Rapid Strikes. Dont derail my thread by showing me what the crap does or trying to reason why I do not like it.

Its my opinion on the book. Respect it. I dont force Book of Erotic Fantasy down your throats. :smalltongue:

Also id like to state about the powers - What the heck do you expect him to use? An ability to make people nice and fluffy instead? Blackguards are the living embodiment of Curruption. If they -dont- mindrape you, their doing it wrong. I tried toning them down the best i could - such as people having some control of their characters via Lust (but must act CE for the duration), or getting new will saves each time they attack someone they wouldnt normally want to when getting to an object via Envy. If I gave some kinda special drawback to each one, they REALLY wouldnt want the last 2-3 sin powers after they got their favorites.

Edit: And no, no example for you. Im tired of people also asking me for an example of why I dislike something, then making me look like an idiot for my veiws.

Also - im considering make a prestige class for the blackguard that acts like a wizard's "Specialist Wizard" prestige class. Focusing on 1 sin above all others and getting incredible benefits from it. So its entirely fine to go with just one power even if thats the flavor of your blackguard (Aka, a barbarian/blackguard, chaotic evil, fully focusing on Wrath). I think I will call it... Embodiment. According to your spec - "Embodiment of Lust", etc.

Golden-Esque
2009-09-04, 12:21 PM
I wasn't a fan of your original (v1) copy of this class, but I find myself really liking version 2. Great job :).

It reminds me of a Paladin variant I just finished making for myself. Very similiar, except instead of expanding on Spells per Day, I gave the Paladin access to the Devoted Disciple and White Raven disciplines from the Tome of Battle.

Jane_Smith
2009-09-04, 12:28 PM
Well, in my defense I made the v1 blackguard at 6 am with chronic insomnia and food poisoning. So.. ya.. ill be burning that version. :smallbiggrin:

Omegonthesane
2009-09-04, 12:31 PM
I wasn't a fan of your original (v1) copy of this class, but I find myself really liking version 2. Great job :).

It reminds me of a Paladin variant I just finished making for myself. Very similiar, except instead of expanding on Spells per Day, I gave the Paladin nothing, because I based it on a book that doesn't exist.

Within the context of this thread, fixed that for you. Though I don't see what she loses from not citing example.

OK, so you don't like special drawbacks for each one, but note my other idea - that a sin would be more awesome the later in the class you took it. Like, a special increase to all the save DCs based on "acquirement level" where that means the level you took the sin at.

Jane_Smith
2009-09-04, 12:38 PM
But.. then people would want to keep their favorite sin for last. Who wants to wait 20 levels for the one they want just because it would be slightly better? Most games I know dont even -last- 20 levels, you would be testing luck and a player's patience a little far.

Omegonthesane
2009-09-04, 12:42 PM
Some games start at high levels, though. And it would make "do I go the full 20" not a no-brainer.

Maybe you could add that every time they get a sin, they can reorder the sins for the purpose of acquirement level, so in practice their favourite is taken first and always the most powerful one?

Jane_Smith
2009-09-04, 12:50 PM
Or for each additional sin gained after the first, all previousely selected sins have the DC to resist their effects increased by 1. For Wrath, you get an additional +1 to attack and damage/+1 DR, and for Glottuny you deal 1 point of additional point of damage with a successful bite attack and gain an additional temporary hit point, and for Greed you gain a +1 bonus on your check to steal the spell?

Omegonthesane
2009-09-04, 12:52 PM
Yes, that would be simpler. 'Course, you'd need to work out what gets a +1 for the other four sins, but that shouldn't be too hard... they DO all involve d20 rolls, right?

I might make it a +2, because +1 = 1/20 chance that it succeeds where it would have failed... wow...

Golden-Esque
2009-09-04, 01:08 PM
Within the context of this thread, fixed that for you. Though I don't see what she loses from not citing example.

OK, so you don't like special drawbacks for each one, but note my other idea - that a sin would be more awesome the later in the class you took it. Like, a special increase to all the save DCs based on "acquirement level" where that means the level you took the sin at.

Was that really necessary to vandalize my post? Jane only said that she didn't like how people tended to think of the Tome of Battle as an end-all bible to martial feats; she never said she had a problem with anyone using them. All I did was tell her the method I took for tackling the Paladin Problem and when she replied to me, she didn't have anything to say about my mentioning of the Sourcebook. Critiquing doesn't mean you get into a Death Match with the Topic Poster >_>.

Person_Man
2009-09-04, 02:26 PM
Since you're intent on having spells start at 1st level, here's my take on how it should be paced. This makes it much closer to Duskblade pacing, which is the only other full BAB class to get casting at 1st level (though it's not as fast as the Duskblade, because the Duskblade lacks full armor and shields, and has mediocre class abilities). Note that on previously dead levels, you gain access to a new spell level. Sight of the Abyss is given at 19th level (presumably with the 20th level ability) instead of being a paced power. But spells go up to 5th level (instead of just 4th), though they are less numerous.


{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th
1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|Mark of Damnation | 0 | - | - | - | - | -
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0|Dark Blessing | 0 | - | - | - | - | -
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1|Scarred Mind | 0 | - | - | - | - | -
4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1| | 1 | 0 | - | - | - | -
5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1| Fiendish Power | 1 | 0 | - | - | - | -
6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+2| Power of Seven | 1 | 0 | - | - | - | -
7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+2| | 2 | 1 | 0 | - | - | -
8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+2| Fiendish Power | 2 | 1 | 0 | - | - | -
9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+3| Power of Seven | 2 | 1 | 0 | - | - | -
10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+3|
+3| | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | - | -
11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+3| Fiendish Power | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | - | -
12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+4| Power of Seven | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | - | -
13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+4|
+4| | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | -
14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+4|
+4| Fiendish Power | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | -
15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+5|
+5| Power of Seven | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | -
16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+5|
+5| | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 1
17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+5|Fiendish Power | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 1
18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+6|
+6|Power of Seven | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 1
19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+6|
+6| Sight of the Abyss | 5 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2
20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+6| Culling the Weak | 5 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2
[/table]

Kylarra
2009-09-05, 02:00 AM
Lust needs a range. I'm moderately amused/disturbed by the thought of one of these causing an entire monastery to fall (or druids or paladins).

Jane_Smith
2009-09-05, 03:11 PM
So am i... so am i. All ranges for 'aura' like effects are 30 feet, my bad. Though, if they fail their save, their under the effect even if they leave the aura until the duration runs out.

Golden-Esque
2009-09-06, 01:03 AM
So am i... so am i. All ranges for 'aura' like effects are 30 feet, my bad. Though, if they fail their save, their under the effect even if they leave the aura until the duration runs out.

A lot of those auras have "If a creatures passes the save, he or she doesn't have to make a save from the same Blackguard's Aura for 1 day" or something similar too, to prevent spammig :).