Westerosi Lore

[mitch0816]

Hey all,

I have a couple of questions regarding Westerosi lore and customs.

Firstly, I was wondering about smallfolk and surnames. As far as I know the smallfolk of Westeros do not bare surnames, only the highborn. Could someone please confirm or correct this notion for me?

I raise the question because of Janos Slynt. If I recall, Janos had quite a low birth but I'm pretty sure he has borne the surname Slynt since he made his first appearance, not just after he was raised to the rank of Lord. I may be wrong but could someone please clear this up for me?

Secondly, I just had a question about the nature of Lordship in Westeros. Does someone with the title of Lord, barring those who bare the title as an honorific (eg: Lord Varys), need to possess lands and some kind of castle/fort/towerhouse for their House to reside in or are there some Houses/Lords that just chill in a mansion/estate in a town or city?

Thanks people, an answer to these questions would be greatly appreciated but don't limit yourself to them. If you know any other interesting stuff about the lore and customs of Westeros then share that too.

Cheers.

[Innis Cabal]

This is for A Song of Ice and Fire. Before anyone asks.

It might be a good idea to put that in the title.

[Finn Solomon]

Lords traditionally hold lands and estates and take care of smallfolk, but some Lords' titles are honorifics with no real value. Lord Varys, for example.

[warty goblin]

I have absolutely no notion about your second, and very little on the first.

I'm fairly sure most of the commoners have surnames of some sort. Remember how it's a deal that Jon is Jon Snow because he can't have his father's name but still needs one? Same with Mya Stone in the Viel. Granted both of them are bastards of highborn lords, but the fact that there exists a custom to provide them with surnames indicates that it is at least reasonably common for smallfolk to have them.

That said, Slynt is the only lowborn person in the Seven Kingdoms I can remember whose surname is actually used and isn't a bastard. My guess here is that it is due to him being a rather important individual and thus due some respect, particularly given his rather prickly nature. Certainly he gets more respect than Joe (Schmoe) on the street.

[mitch0816]

I'm fairly sure most of the commoners have surnames of some sort.

I don't know about that. I think the majority of smallfolk just refer to themselves as being a member of their hometown or whatever. Eg: Tom of Duskendale, or **** of Flea Bottom, or Harry of Highgarden. Maybe thats what you mean by 'some sort'? I'm not sure.


Remember how it's a deal that Jon is Jon Snow because he can't have his father's name but still needs one? Same with Mya Stone in the Viel. Granted both of them are bastards of highborn lords, but the fact that there exists a custom to provide them with surnames indicates that it is at least reasonably common for smallfolk to have them.

I thought that those bastard names were exclusive to the bastards of highborn Houses. Could be wrong. Anyone know definitively?


That said, Slynt is the only lowborn person in the Seven Kingdoms I can remember whose surname is actually used and isn't a bastard. My guess here is that it is due to him being a rather important individual and thus due some respect, particularly given his rather prickly nature. Certainly he gets more respect than Joe (Schmoe) on the street.

I think you could be right here. I just wish I knew the circumstances in which he would have been given a name. Maybe one of his ancestors was some kind of Lord and lost his lordship but kept his House name as a surname or something like that. Hmm..

Another example of a non-lord who has a surname is Rennifer Longwaters, the head undergaoler, but he claims to be descended from the baseborn son of a Targaryen princess and a Lord. I don't know if he is particularly important or respected, despite his own opinions, yet he bares a surname.

Thanks for your input warty goblin.

[mitch0816]

This is for A Song of Ice and Fire. Before anyone asks.

It might be a good idea to put that in the title.

Is there some way I can change it now or am I too late?

[warty goblin]

I don't know about that. I think the majority of smallfolk just refer to themselves as being a member of their hometown or whatever. Eg: Tom of Duskendale, or **** of Flea Bottom, or Harry of Highgarden. Maybe thats what you mean by 'some sort'? I'm not sure.

By 'of some sort' I meant I assumed they had some, but there wasn't very many examples, so I didn't actually know what they were like.




I thought that those bastard names were exclusive to the bastards of highborn Houses. Could be wrong. Anyone know definitively?
I figure they are pretty much highborn bastard exclusive, since there they serve the purpose of differentiating the true children from those born on the wrong side of the sheets. Can anybody remember/check who Mya Stone's father is? I'm fairly certain he's highborn, but can't remember for sure.




I think you could be right here. I just wish I knew the circumstances in which he would have been given a name. Maybe one of his ancestors was some kind of Lord and lost his lordship but kept his House name as a surname or something like that. Hmm..
I really can't help you unfortunately.


Another example of a non-lord who has a surname is Rennifer Longwaters, the head undergaoler, but he claims to be descended from the baseborn son of a Targaryen princess and a Lord. I don't know if he is particularly important or respected, despite his own opinions, yet he bares a surname.
Good catch. Another possibility is that it's regional to some degree. Given the generally more urban feel of the South, it's possible that smallfolk have surnames below the Neck and above they don't. Either way most of the time they aren't used since doing so would show them honor outside their place, and most people don't travel enough to need to use them to differenentiate between multiple people with the same first name.

I'm only thinking this because both the examples of smallfolk with surnames that we have come from the southern regions, and it's fairly clear that the North, particularly the far North of Winterfell and the Wall adhere to a reasonably different and definitely older set of customs.


Thanks for your input warty goblin.
Thank you, it was my pleasure.

[Mewtarthio]

I figure they are pretty much highborn bastard exclusive, since there they serve the purpose of differentiating the true children from those born on the wrong side of the sheets. Can anybody remember/check who Mya Stone's father is? I'm fairly certain he's highborn, but can't remember for sure.

One of those obscure highborn nobles--I really can't blame you for forgetting him. I think his name was something like "Robert Baratheon." :smalltongue:

[mitch0816]

I figure they are pretty much highborn bastard exclusive, since there they serve the purpose of differentiating the true children from those born on the wrong side of the sheets. Can anybody remember/check who Mya Stone's father is? I'm fairly certain he's highborn, but can't remember for sure.

Haha yeah he's definitely highborn. She's the baseborn daughter of non other than King Robert Baratheon himself...one of his many bastard children. I'm not sure if it actually confirms her as his but it heavily implies it at least, though I don't believe she, or most others, are aware of it. Which raises the question of why she would be granted the name Stone? Maybe they know her father was highborn but weren't quite aware how high. Hmmm

Edric Storm is another of Robert's bastards, though he has actually been recognised as such. And that reminds me, Gendry is Robert's bastard but seemingly because he hasn't been recognised as such he doesn't carry the surname Waters. Could that be proof?

[Yoren]

Two names I can remember right now are Allar Deem and Tobho Mott. Both Deem and Slynt were high ranking officers in the City Watch, so maybe becoming an officer is like becoming a knight and it allows you to take a surname.

As to Tobho Mott I'm not real sure why he has a last name but some of the suggestions others have put forward could work. Or he just might have a lot of money and that could be the source of his name.

[Fifty-Eyed Fred]

What's with the sudden proliferation of ASoIaF threads?

Anyway, don't forget that Davos took a surname upon knighthood, which suggests that the poor at least don't have them.

[pita]

Firstly, I was wondering about smallfolk and surnames. As far as I know the smallfolk of Westeros do not bare surnames, only the highborn. Could someone please confirm or correct this notion for me?

I raise the question because of Janos Slynt. If I recall, Janos had quite a low birth but I'm pretty sure he has borne the surname Slynt since he made his first appearance, not just after he was raised to the rank of Lord. I may be wrong but could someone please clear this up for me?

Secondly, I just had a question about the nature of Lordship in Westeros. Does someone with the title of Lord, barring those who bare the title as an honorific (eg: Lord Varys), need to possess lands and some kind of castle/fort/towerhouse for their House to reside in or are there some Houses/Lords that just chill in a mansion/estate in a town or city?


The title Lord is an honorific if you don't possess lands. A Lord is, essentially, a land owner. But that land could just be a castle, or even a household for which you don't need to pay taxes.
As for the first, I'll have to re-read. But I think he may have been a knight or something before that.

[Finn Solomon]

Slynt was a butcher's son, but he was the Commander of the King's Landing City Watch, a relatively high position. He wasn't a knight though, he got upjumped straight to Lordship, which pissed off Tywin Lannister.

[Yoren]

Slynt was a butcher's son, but he was the Commander of the King's Landing City Watch, a relatively high position. He wasn't a knight though, he got upjumped straight to Lordship, which pissed off Tywin Lannister.

I think Tywin was pissed that Slynt was made Lord of Harrenhal specifically. If House Slynt had gotten a craphole like Littlefinger's ancestral lands on the Fingers, I don't think Tywin would have minded so much.