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Golden-Esque
2009-09-06, 02:51 PM
The Bard

{table=head] Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special
01 | +0 | +0 | +2 | +2 | Bardic Music, Bardic Knowledge, Facsinate, Inspire Courage +1
02 | +1 | +0 | +3 | +3 | Freestyle (Countersong)
03 | +2 | +1 | +3 | +3 | Inspire Competence (skills)
04 | +3 | +1 | +4 | +4 | Bonus Bardic Music Feat
05 | +3 | +1 | +4 | +4 | Freestyle (Warden's Chant), Inspire Courage +2
06 | +4 | +2 | +5 | +5 | Suggestion
07 | +5 | +2 | +5 | +5 | Way with Words 1.5
08 | +6/+1 | +2 | +6 | +6 | Inspire Competence (Defense)
09 | +6/+1 | +3 | +6 | +6 | Inspire Greatness
10 | +7/+2 | +3 | +7 | +7 | Inspire Courage +3
11 | +8/+3 | +3 | +7 | +7 | Freestyle (Rogue's Ballad)
12 | +9/+4 | +4 | +8 | +8 | Song of Freedom
13 | +9/+4 | +4 | +8 | +8 | Way with Words 2.0
14 | +10/+5 | +4 | +9 | +9 | Inspire Competence (Opposed checks)
15 | +11/+6/+1 | +5 | +9 | +9 | Inspire Courage +4, Inspire Heroism
16 | +12/+7/+2 | +5 | +10 | +10 | Freestyle (Glory's Hymn)
17 | +12/+7/+2 | +5 | +10 | +10 | Bonus Bardic Music Feat
18 | +13/+8/+3 | +6 | +11 | +11 | Mass Suggestion
19 | +14/+9/+4 | +6 | +11 | +11 | Inspire Legends
20 | +15/+10/+5 | +6 | +12 | +12 | Inspire Courage +5, Inspire Competence (Multiple)[/table]

Armor and Weapon Proficiency
A Bard is proficient with all simple weapons, plus the longsword, rapier, sap, short sword, shortbow, and whip. Bards are proficient with light armor and shields (except tower shields). A Bard can cast bard spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. However, like any other arcane spellcaster, a Bard wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component (most do). A multiclass Bard still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.

Spells
A Bard casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the [[]]. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. Every Bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music). To learn or cast a spell, a Bard must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Bard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the Bard’s Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a Bard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. A Bard's base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Bard Spells Per Day. In addition, a Bard receives bonus spells per day if he or she has a high Charisma score. When Table: Bard Spells Per Day indicates that the Bard gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, he or she only gains the bonus spells the character would be entitled to based on their Charisma score for that spell level.

The Bard’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A Bard begins play knowing four 0-level spells of your choice. At most new Bard levels, a Bard gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Bard Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a Bard knows is not affected by their Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Bard Spells Known are fixed.)

Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third Bard level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a Bard can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he or she already knows. In effect, the Bard "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level Bard spell the Bard can cast. A Bard may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he or she gains new spells known for the level.

As noted above, a Bard need not prepare their spells in advance. A Bard can cast any spell they know at any time, assuming the Bard has not yet used up their allotment of spells per day for the spell’s level.

Table: Bard Spells per Day
{table=head] Level | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th
01 | 2 | _ | _ | _ | _ | _ | _
02 | 3 | 0 | _ | _ | _ | _ | _
03 | 3 | 1 | _ | _ | _ | _ | _
04 | 3 | 2 | 0 | _ | _ | _ | _
05 | 3 | 3 | 1 | _ | _ | _ | _
06 | 3 | 3 | 2 | _ | _ | _ | _
07 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 0 | _ | _ | _
08 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | _ | _ | _
09 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2 | _ | _ | _
10 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 0 | _ | _
11 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | _ | _
12 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2 | _ | _
13 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 0 | _
14 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 1 | _
15 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2 | _
16 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 0
17 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 1
18 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2
19 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3
20 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4[/table]

Table: Bard Spells Known
{table=head] Level | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | 6th
01 | 4 | _ | _ | _ | _ | _ | _
02 | 5 | 2 | _ | _ | _ | _ | _
03 | 6 | 3 | _ | _ | _ | _ | _
04 | 6 | 3 | 2 | _ | _ | _ | _
05 | 6 | 4 | 3 | _ | _ | _ | _
06 | 6 | 4 | 3 | _ | _ | _ | _
07 | 6 | 4 | 4 | 2 | _ | _ | _
08 | 6 | 4 | 4 | 3 | _ | _ | _
09 | 6 | 4 | 4 | 3 | _ | _ | _
10 | 6 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 2 | _ | _
11 | 6 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | _ | _
12 | 6 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | _ | _
13 | 6 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 2 | _
14 | 6 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | _
15 | 6 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3 | _
16 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 2
17 | 6 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 3
18 | 6 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 4 | 3
19 | 6 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 4 | 4
20 | 6 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 4[/table]

Bardic Knowledge
A Bard may make a special Bardic Knowledge check with a bonus equal to his or her Bard level + their Intelligence modifier to see whether he or she knows some relevant information about local notable people, legendary items, or noteworthy places. (If the Bard has 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (history), he or she gains a +2 bonus on this check.)

A successful Bardic Knowledge check will not reveal the powers of a magic item but may give a hint as to its general function. A Bard may not take 10 or take 20 on this check; this sort of knowledge is essentially random.

DC 10 - Common, known by at least a substantial minority of the local population.
DC 20 - Uncommon but available, known by only a few people legends.
DC 25 - Obscure, known by few, hard to come by.
DC 30 - Extremely obscure, known by very few, possibly forgotten by most who once knew it, possibly known only by those who don’t understand the significance of the knowledge.

Bardic Music
Once per day per bard level, a bard can use their performance to produce magical effects on those around them (usually including the bard, if desired). While these abilities fall under the category of bardic music and the descriptions discuss singing or playing instruments, they can all be activated by reciting poetry, chanting, singing lyrical songs, singing melodies, whistling, playing an instrument, or playing an instrument in combination with some spoken performance. Each ability requires both a minimum bard level and a minimum number of ranks in the Perform skill to qualify; if a bard does not have the required number of ranks in at least one Perform skill, they do not gain the bardic music ability until they acquire the needed ranks.

Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action. Some bardic music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must take a standard action each round to maintain the ability. Even while using bardic music that doesn’t require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), spell trigger (such as wands), or command word. Just as with casting spells with a verbal component, a deaf bard has a 20% chance to fail when attempting to use bardic music. If they fail, the attempt still counts against their daily limit.

Multiple bard songs do not stack, and multiple bards must duel (in a sense) in order to be the dominant voice or melody heard. Whenever two or more bards are using bardic music effects at the same time, each bard makes a Perform check. The bard with the highest result’s effects is heard and the magic of their music is active; all other bardic music abilities are immediately ended, though effects that endure after the music ends (such as Inspire Courage) remain.

[B]Fascinate (Sp)
A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use their music or poetics to cause one or more creatures to become fascinated with them. Each creature to be fascinated must be within 90 feet, able to see and hear the bard, and able to pay attention to him or her. The bard must also be able to see the creature. The distraction of nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working. For every three levels a bard attains beyond 1st (4th, 7th, etc), they can target one additional creature with a single use of this ability.

To use the ability, a bard makes a Perform check. The check result is the DC for each affected creature’s Will save against the effect. If a creature’s saving throw succeeds, the bard cannot attempt to fascinate that creature again for 24 hours. If its saving throw fails, the creature sits quietly and listens to the song, taking no other actions, for as long as the bard continues to play and concentrate (up to a maximum of 1 round per bard level). While fascinated, a target takes a -4 penalty on skill checks made as reactions, such as Listen and Spot checks. Any potential threat requires the bard to make another Perform check and allows the creature a new saving throw against a DC equal to the new Perform check result.

Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect. Fascinate is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting ability.

Inspire Courage (Su)
A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use song or poetics to inspire courage in their allies (including themselves), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to hear the bard sing. The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 6th level, and every four bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by 1 (+2 at 6th, +3 at 10th, +4 at 14th, and +5 at 18th). Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability.

Inspire Competence (Su)
Starting at 3rd level, a bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can inspire those around him to succeed at tasks. The bard selects a single skill of their choice, and all allies within 30 feet of the bard and who can see and hear him or her gain a +2 competence bonus on skill checks with the selected skill. Some uses of this ability are infeasible; a bard cannot inspire competence with the [[[Move Silently]]] skill for example. The benefits of Inspire Competence (skills) last for 2 minutes.

Starting at 8th level, a bard with 8 or more ranks in a Perform skill's accumulative knowledge allows them to inspire competence in a wider array of situations. A bard can now select a single ally within 30 feet of the bard and who can see and hear him sing and grant him a +1 competence bonus to AC. The bard can inspire competence in this way for up to 5 rounds, and the bonuses from Inspire Competence (defense) last for 3 rounds after the bard stops singing.

Starting at 14th level, a bard with 14 or more ranks in a Perform skill's accumulative knowledge allows them to inspire competence in an even wider array of situations. A bard can now select a single ally within 30 feet of the bard who can see and hear them sing and grant them a +2 competence bonus on opposed bull rush, disarm, feint, overrun, sunder, or trip attempts. The bard can inspire competence in this way for up to 5 rounds, and the bonuses from Inspire Competence (Opposed Checks) last for 3 rounds after the bard stops singing.

At 20th level, a bard with 20 or more ranks in a Perform skill becomes so masterful in their inspiration that they can inspire multiple allies in different abilities. A bard can select a number of allies within 30 feet of the bard that can see and hear him sing equal to the bard's Intelligence modifier. The bard can select any Inspire Competence ability (either skills, defense, or opposed checks) and apply its bonuses to the selected creature. Like with Inspire Competence (skills), some uses of this ability are infeasible.

For example, if the bard has an Intelligence modifier of +4, and there are 4 allies within 30 feet of the bard who can see and hear him sing, the bard might choose to grant two allies a +2 competence bonus on Tumble checks, one a +1 competence bonus to AC, and the final one a +2 competence bonus on opposed checks. These bonuses can be spread out in any way the bard likes, but a bard can only inspire competence in this weay for up to 5 rounds, and the bonuses from Inspire Competence (multiple) last for 3 rounds after the bard stops singing.

Regardless of their level, a bard can never inspire competence of any kind within themselves. Inspire Competence is a mind-affecting ability.

Suggestion (Sp)
A bard of 6th level or higher with 9 or more ranks in a Perform skill can make a suggestion (as the spell) to a creature that they have already fascinated. Using this ability does not break the bard’s concentration on the fascinate effect, nor does it allow a second saving throw against the fascinate effect.

Making a suggestion doesn’t count against a bard’s daily limit on bardic music performances. A Will saving throw (DC 10 + ½ bard’s level + bard’s Cha modifier) negates the effect. This ability affects only a single creature (but see mass suggestion, below). Suggestion is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting, language dependent ability.

Inspire Greatness (Su)
A bard of 9th level or higher with 12 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use music or poetics to inspire greatness in themselves or a single willing ally within 30 feet, granting them extra fighting capability. For every three levels a bard attains beyond 9th, they can target one additional ally with a single use of this ability (two at 12th level, three at 15th, four at 18th). To inspire greatness, a bard must sing and an ally must hear him or her sing. The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter. A creature inspired with greatness gains 2 bonus Hit Dice (d10s), the commensurate number of temporary hit points (apply the target’s Constitution modifier, if any, to these bonus Hit Dice), a +2 competence bonus on attack rolls, and a +1 competence bonus on Fortitude saves. The bonus Hit Dice count as regular Hit Dice for determining the effect of spells that are Hit Dice dependent. Inspire greatness is a mind-affecting ability.

Song of Freedom (Su)
A bard of 12th level or higher with 15 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use music or poetics to create an effect equivalent to the break enchantment spell (caster level equals the character’s bard level). Using this ability requires 1 minute of uninterrupted concentration and music, and it functions on a single target within 30 feet. A bard can’t use song of freedom on themselves.

Inspire Heroism (Su)
A bard of 15th level or higher with 18 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use music or poetics to inspire tremendous heroism in themselves or a single willing ally within 30 feet. For every three bard levels the character attains beyond 15th, they can inspire heroics in one additional creature. To inspire heroics, a bard must sing and an ally must hear the bard sing for a full round. A creature so inspired gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws and a +4 dodge bonus to AC. The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for up to 5 rounds thereafter. Inspire heroics is a mind-affecting ability.

Mass Suggestion (Sp)
This ability functions like suggestion, above, except that a bard of 18th level or higher with 21 or more ranks in a Perform skill can make the suggestion simultaneously to any number of creatures that he has already fascinated. Mass suggestion is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting, language-dependent ability.

Inspire Legends (Su)
At 20th level, a bard with 23 or more ranks in a Perform skill gains the ability to draw out the stuff of legends from their allies. The bard selects a single ally within 30 feet of the bard who can see the bard and hear him or her sing. On the next die the creature makes, be it an attack roll, a saving throw, or a skill check, the creature instantly succeeds as if he or she rolled a natural 20. If the roll was an attack roll, the character must roll to confirm a critical hit as usual. Any given creature can only be inspired this way once every 24 hours, even by different bards. Inspire legends is a mind-affecting ability that lasts while the bard sings, and for 1 round afterwards. A bard cannot inspire legendary acts from themselves. A bard can sing inspire legends for up to 5 rounds.


Freestyle
A bard can choose to add personal bits to their performances, called freestyles. As a standard action, a bard can expend one of their daily uses of their bardic music ability to change the effects of their bardic music, as listed below. Using a freestyle is a standard action that requires the bard to already be performing a specific bardic music ability (see individual freestyles below). Unless stated below, the freestyle’s effect lasts for as long as the bardic music ability is in effect. Using a freestyle doesn't end the bardic music effect that the bard is already performing, and a bard can never freestyle two rounds in a row.

Countersong
At 3rd level, a bard with 3 or more ranks in a [[[Perform]]] skill can ward their allies from sound-based magic and effects. When the bard uses the Countersong freestyle (and on every round thereafter that their bardic music endures), they must make a Perform check. All friendly creatures within 30 feet of the bard may use the bard’s Countersong check result as their saving throw against all sound-based effects.

While the Countersong freestyle is active, the bard gains a +4 bonus to their Perform check when attempting to win a "Bardic Duel" to have their voices heard (see Bardic Music, above).

Warden's Chant
At 5th level, a bard with 5 or more ranks in a Perform Skill can alter their Inspire Courage song, changing its effects for some or all of its listeners. The bard selects a number of allies who can hear their Inspire Courage song up to their Intelligence modifier (minimum 1). This freestyle alters the effects of Inspire Courage for the selected creatures for the duration of the Inspire Courage music effect (including the 5 rounds after the bard stops singing), granting the affected creatures a +1 bonus to armor class and a damage reduction 1. These bonuses replace Inspire Courage's +1 bonus to attack rolls and +1 bonus to damage rolls. The bonuses granted by Warden's Chant increases as the Bard's Inspire Courage bonuses increase, to a max of +5 AC at 20th level (the damage reduction bonus does not increase).

Rogue's Ballad
At 11th level, a bard with 11 or more ranks in a Perform Skill can alter their Inspire Greatness song, changing its effects for some or all of its listeners. The bard selects a number of allies who can hear their Inspire Greatness song (and who are affected by it) up to their Intelligence modifier (minimum 1). This freestyle alters the effects of Inspire Greatness for the selected creatures for the duration of the Inspire Greatness music effect (including the 5 rounds after the bard stops singing), granting the effected creatures a +1 insight bonus to Reflex saving throws and +1 attacks of opportunity per turn. These bonuses replace Inspire Greatness's +2 bonus to attack rolls and +1 bonus to Fortitude saving throws.

Glory's Hymn
At 16th level, a bard with 16 or more ranks in a Perform skill can alter their Inspire Heroics song, changingf its effects for some or all of its listeners. The bard selects a number of allies who can hear their Inspire Heroics song (and who are affected by it) up to their Intelligence modifier (minimum 1). This freestyle alters the effects of Inspire Heroics for the selected creatures for the duration of the Inspire Heroics music effect (including the 5 rounds after the bard stops singing), granting the effected creatures a +2 bonus to their critical threat chance and a +4 bonus on weapon attack rolls to confirm critical hits. These bonuses replace Inspire Heroism's +4 bonus to AC and +4 bonus to saving throws.


Bonus Bardic Music Feat
At 4th level, a bard can choose a single Bardic Music feat as a bonus feat. He or she must meet all of the normal prerequisites for this feat. At 17th level, the bard can choose a second Bardic music feat. Again, he or she must meet all of the normal prerequisites for this feat.

Way with Words
At 7th level, a bard knows that with the right words, and a hint of magic, anyone can be persuaded. Once per day, the bard can add an extra half of his or her Charisma modifier (rounded down, minimum +1) to any Charisma-based check he or she makes.

By 13th level, the bard's experience gives them a larger vocabulary and understanding of what people want to hear. A bard can double their Charisma modifier on any Charisma-based check he or she makes once per day.

Golden-Esque
2009-09-06, 02:52 PM
The idea here was to beef up the Bard for my campaign, since they have so many dead levels. However, I didn't want to give them Martial Maneuvers; they're lovers, not fighters :P. Besides, it didn't feel right. The Bard's always portrayed as a Charismatic musician, and so while playing Rockband last night, I was discussing all this to my friend. "Krieg," I told him, "I love playing bards, and I consider any damage you deal with my Song's bonus my contribution to the fight. But the fact remains that it's passive, and a Bard often does nothing all fight but sing." "Dude, keep your eye on the game, Esque! You're missing all the freestyles!"

Now, if you ever played Rockband, you'll know that on the vocals, you freestyle just by humming or singing notes. Not real words, but notes. That, right there, was when the idea for Freestyles hit me :).

Amadi
2009-09-06, 03:15 PM
A: DC of Perform Check is way too high. There is no way most things succeed on that. There are just way too many ways to jack up the DC, up to ~200 by level 20, if you really go for it.
B: Positively Charming is -10 to saving throws. The level 20 song is +10 to the DC. This means that nothing will really make saving throws, even if the DC wasn't in the 40's to begin with.
C: This whole class is in many ways fairly overpowered.

I like some of the fluff, but I know I wouldn't allow this in any of my campaigns, simply due to the power level of it.

Golden-Esque
2009-09-06, 03:30 PM
A: DC of Perform Check is way too high. There is no way most things succeed on that. There are just way too many ways to jack up the DC, up to ~200 by level 20, if you really go for it.
B: Positively Charming is -10 to saving throws. The level 20 song is +10 to the DC. This means that nothing will really make saving throws, even if the DC wasn't in the 40's to begin with.
C: This whole class is in many ways fairly overpowered.

I like some of the fluff, but I know I wouldn't allow this in any of my campaigns, simply due to the power level of it.

Here's some quick, fairly easy changes based on your feedback.

#1 - DC has been chilled out. It's now equal to the bard's level + their Charisma modifier.

#2 - Positively Charming is now a flat -4 on Will saves to resist the bard's "Charm" spells, ie. Charm Person, Charm Monster, etc. Not quite sure what I was thinking when I made this one, haha. It was supposed to be fluff :O.

#3 - Remix was nerfed. Instead of needing to make a Perform Check equal to the combined minimum ranks needed to use the Remixed abilties, you need 10 + the minimum ranks needed to use the remixed abilities (I think the lowest possible DC is 24ish now. This still may be too low.).

#4 - If you could give me more opinion on how it's overpowered, I'd love to hear them. I'd to chill it out so that it's fair.

Mulletmanalive
2009-09-06, 03:50 PM
A: DC of Perform Check is way too high. There is no way most things succeed on that. There are just way too many ways to jack up the DC, up to ~200 by level 20, if you really go for it.


The hell? I'm pretty sure that's Hyperbole... Best i've ever seen for a skill check was about +70, and that was with every magic item, spell bonus and so forth that could be found... [Still couldn't build the mech in question...]

You're going to have to explain this one...

Golden-Esque
2009-09-06, 04:34 PM
Another thing to remember is that Inspire Legends doesn't affect the bard; only their allies. And you never run into two Bards increasing each other with Inspire Legends, because of the special rule I lay out under the Bardic Music section.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-09-06, 04:40 PM
The hell? I'm pretty sure that's Hyperbole... Best i've ever seen for a skill check was about +70, and that was with every magic item, spell bonus and so forth that could be found... [Still couldn't build the mech in question...]

You're going to have to explain this one...

The "world records" for skill checks are often in the 300s with preparation time or limited uses per day, with the normal every-single-round checks being in the high 100s to low 200s. The only record thread I still have links for after the horrific WotC board screwup is for Bluff, and that gets +312 after preparation once per day and about +207-ish otherwise (and I know of a few simple tricks found since that was posted that let you keep the +312 for much longer than one check).

Golden-Esque
2009-09-06, 11:31 PM
Not to be rude or anything, but I don't really want to derail this thread into a flame war about the largest, most ridiculous modifier a character can get to a skill :).

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-09-07, 01:43 AM
Not to be rude or anything, but I don't really want to derail this thread into a flame war about the largest, most ridiculous modifier a character can get to a skill :).

It's not going to head into a flame war; he wanted clarification, I gave it, it should be settled.

elliott20
2009-09-07, 02:26 AM
huh... I wonder how that works... anyway, I don't think this really should become a char-op thread though.

Me? I like this class. It adds a lot of interesting stuff for the bard to do. It would be better if there were MORE different powers and he could pick them though, that way you can differentiate between your free style stuff.

of course, that's really what his spells should be for.

Mulletmanalive
2009-09-07, 06:00 AM
A general nitpick: Bard abilities are keyed to one rank below their maximum at the level they are acquired. The reason for this is to require a minimum skill but not causing all bards to be identical. You have required max ranks. This seems counterproductive in a situation where the player is supposedly allowed choice as to how good a performer their bard is.

Not only that, it's inconsistent: those abilities you've stolen are using the true bard requirements. Please change this...

Inspire Legends isn't too bad, but it doesn't function all that well thematically as Legends are almost universally tales of one person. I personally would have it grant a +10 'charge' of awesome to a single target.

There's nothing wrong with it being a continuous effect on one target, I just prefer the idea of the bard setting them up for a legendary moment.

Countersong: This is fine, but you don't technically need to go into that second slightly contradictory explanation about opposed bards. On a second look, it's actually a second ability for the power.

Split it into a seperate paragraph; i'd also suggest that it should tear down the effects of the other bard's performances [removing the Inspire Courage before it's 5 round cool-down is over etc].

Freestyles: Ok, i like the idea of this ability, adding flourishes to their music to cause additional effects. Simple and pithy idea. My question is, does this really need to be a unique feature? You could have just altered the way that the bard's spells were presented and altered their spell list to gain much the same effect. As it is, you tend to cause fear a lot in the early levels...

I'd suggest finding a less modern name for the class feature. seems a little Jarring when talking about bards.

Anyway, individual effects:
Shaken: I'm not sure if your DC is intentionally low [when acquired now, the ability has a DC of about 8] but considering one of the oldest and least retarded of the Bardic Music feats only causes Shaken for one minute, it seems like the duration is a little long.

Magical Melody: Ok, until i read this one, i'd glazed the fact that you've apparently left the spells intact. You've crossed into 'I've decided to break a class' territory. The feature is overpowered, mostly by dint of its existence.

Deafen: Doesn't make sense as it only targets enemies and is mimicking a level 6 equivilent spell on the short burn. Far too powerful for its level. I'd have less of a problem with it if it had a single target.

Remix: I honestly don't get the point of this one. That and the ability to not only maintain a Bardic music effect, AND cast a spell, AND discharge a spell like ability in one go is overpowered. Top end this or scrap it.

Lethargy: Yes, i corrected the tenses. This is off because it creates Fatigue more enduring than conventional Fatigue [which is normally dismissed after one hour of rest]. Mechanically, with it's saving throw in its boots, it's not too bad though.

Deprivation: The name makes no sense [denying someone something hardly equates to causing catatonia] but mechanically it's alright. It's unlikely to function anyway so it's not really an issue that it's powerful.

Positively Charming: I find this odd because a) it is FAR more powerful than any other spell DC boost ability that i've ever seen, though it is very monotask and b) there is no other feature that indicates that the bard is personable in the least, merely skills, which can be easily equalled by a Rogue.

I'd split this into either two +1 DC bonuses on Charm effects at two seperate levels or scrap it and go for something that actually makes them charming.

Overall: It's an interesting retool and it had my approval until i noticed that you'd not only added in more abilities and made the existing ones better but you'd kept the spells.

As it is, that's too much. Nevermind the fact that most of the freestyle abilities are unlikely to stick, that just makes them interestingly named dead levels [well, I don't really consider levels that grant spell improvement dead anyway] as they won't be used in favour of using the Magical Melody feature over and over.

Golden-Esque
2009-09-07, 10:29 AM
A general nitpick: Bard abilities are keyed to one rank below their maximum at the level they are acquired. The reason for this is to require a minimum skill but not causing all bards to be identical. You have required max ranks. This seems counterproductive in a situation where the player is supposedly allowed choice as to how good a performer their bard is.

Not only that, it's inconsistent: those abilities you've stolen are using the true bard requirements. Please change this...

Stole? How did I steal these abilities? And the skills don't require the max skill, they require the bard's level + 3 skill points, one less than the max, which is the same formula used for all other bard abilities.


Inspire Legends isn't too bad, but it doesn't function all that well thematically as Legends are almost universally tales of one person. I personally would have it grant a +10 'charge' of awesome to a single target.

There's nothing wrong with it being a continuous effect on one target, I just prefer the idea of the bard setting them up for a legendary moment.

It's a continuous effect on one target, it gives a +10 charge of awesome to all the bard's allies within 30 feet of the bard. It adds +10 to weapon attack rolls, +10 t0 a spell's DC, and causes all critical threats to automatically succeed. The effect ends as soon as the target makes a successful attack or casts a successful spell, and any given target and only be Inspired to do legendary deeds once per day. The effect itself can only be sustained while the bard is singing; if the bard stops singing and an ally hasn't used their spell / attack, tough cookies.


Countersong: This is fine, but you don't technically need to go into that second slightly contradictory explanation about opposed bards. On a second look, it's actually a second ability for the power.

Split it into a seperate paragraph; i'd also suggest that it should tear down the effects of the other bard's performances [removing the Inspire Courage before it's 5 round cool-down is over etc].

It was intended to strip another bard of song benefits, but I guess I didn't add that. I'll split up the paragraph for clarity as well. The idea is that a bard plays Countersong if they want to neutralize other bards. It's not as impossible as, say, an Anti-Magic Field, but a +4 bonus on Opposed Performance checks to beat out other bards is pretty useful.


Freestyles: Ok, i like the idea of this ability, adding flourishes to their music to cause additional effects. Simple and pithy idea. My question is, does this really need to be a unique feature? You could have just altered the way that the bard's spells were presented and altered their spell list to gain much the same effect. As it is, you tend to cause fear a lot in the early levels...

I'd suggest finding a less modern name for the class feature. seems a little Jarring when talking about bards.

I think the word freestyle fits it perfectly. Especially considering that, in game, no bard is going to talk about freestyles; they'll talk about their own musical talent or genius or whatever.


Anyway, individual effects:
Shaken: I'm not sure if your DC is intentionally low [when acquired now, the ability has a DC of about 8] but considering one of the oldest and least retarded of the Bardic Music feats only causes Shaken for one minute, it seems like the duration is a little long.


Magical Melody: Ok, until i read this one, i'd glazed the fact that you've apparently left the spells intact. You've crossed into 'I've decided to break a class' territory. The feature is overpowered, mostly by dint of its existence.

Ironically enough, there's a feat in Complete Adventurer, I believe, with this same ability. Coupled with the fact you can't use two Freestyles in two consecutive turns and you can only freestyle a number of times per day equal to half your Bard Level, I disagree with you that this ability is Overpowered.


Deafen: Doesn't make sense as it only targets enemies and is mimicking a level 6 equivalent spell on the short burn. Far too powerful for its level. I'd have less of a problem with it if it had a single target.

I can fix that :P.


Remix: I honestly don't get the point of this one. That and the ability to not only maintain a Bardic music effect, AND cast a spell, AND discharge a spell like ability in one go is overpowered. Top end this or scrap it.
The DC on this one is also pretty ridiculous. And if you fail, your bardic music effect immediately ends (no 5 round Inspire Courage bonus either), and you loose two of your daily Freestyles; considering you only get 10 at 20th level, it's a fair number.

Lethargy: Yes, i corrected the tenses. This is off because it creates Fatigue more enduring than conventional Fatigue [which is normally dismissed after one hour of rest]. Mechanically, with it's saving throw in its boots, it's not too bad though.[/quote] I actually read the rules for this one. Fatigue requires 8 hours of rest in order to be removed.[/quote]


Deprivation: The name makes no sense [denying someone something hardly equates to causing catatonia] but mechanically it's alright. It's unlikely to function anyway so it's not really an issue that it's powerful.

Sensory Deprivation. And exactly. It wasn't designed to be this amazing ability that the Bard uses to kill everything. It's better suited for taking people hostage / knocking out lower-leveled NPCs, etc. I think I'm going to change this one so it only affects a total number of creatures equal to the Bard's Hit Dice though, so a bard can't walk into a crowded street and knock several hundred people into a coma.


Positively Charming: I find this odd because a) it is FAR more powerful than any other spell DC boost ability that i've ever seen, though it is very monotask and b) there is no other feature that indicates that the bard is personable in the least, merely skills, which can be easily equalled by a Rogue.

I'd split this into either two +1 DC bonuses on Charm effects at two seperate levels or scrap it and go for something that actually makes them charming. I can agree with you on this one. Positively Charming was more or a less a "Oh snap, what do I put here?" ability. More likely then not, it's getting scrapped.

Overall: It's an interesting retool and it had my approval until i noticed that you'd not only added in more abilities and made the existing ones better but you'd kept the spells.


As it is, that's too much. Nevermind the fact that most of the freestyle abilities are unlikely to stick, that just makes them interestingly named dead levels [well, I don't really consider levels that grant spell improvement dead anyway] as they won't be used in favour of using the Magical Melody feature over and over.

To be honest, I'm not sure how much of my actual build you read, or you'd know that Magical Melody, at most, at 20th level, can be used 10 times a day (assuming you forgo all other freestyles), can't be used two turns in a row, and can only be used on spells with a casting time of Instant that require no concentration on the bard's behalf. I'm standing by that I don't think Magical Melody is as ridiculously overpowered as you seem to think.

With that said, I am going "back to the drawing board" with this class. I don't think that giving the Bard all of this debuffing potential is actually fitting in with the theme of the class, and I do have some ideas how to make the Bard's dead level abilities more interesting without breaking them, which I'll admit some of the abilities are rather ridiculous.

Golden-Esque
2009-09-07, 01:20 PM
Major Updates Finished.
Variant Bard, v2.0, now uploaded.

Reasons for Edits:

#1 - All abilities filled in for clarification. There were some people that hadn't realized that the Bard still had their spellcasting, for example. This has (hopefully) been remedied.

#2 - Many abilities were swapped back to their original places on the table. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

#3 - Inspire Courage caps out at +5. To me, the game feels cleaner when a multiple of 5 is the end cap of something.

#4 - Inspire Competence overhauled. It's not split into 4 abilities, the latter three all requiring the Bard to have a decent Intelligence in order to work well. If you're Elan and have trouble with mutlitasking, you might have trouble with some of the later effects :).

#5 - Inspire Legends overhauled. Works on only one target, and gives their next action (pretty much, read for details) a nice big modifier and other bonuses. Characters can only be affected by Inspire Legends once every 24 hours (regardless of the bard using the magic) and the bard can never inspire legendary deeds from his or her self.

#6 - Freestyles overhauled. They now work by altering other bard songs in specific manners. I also had the insight to make Countersong a freestyle, increasing its usfulness. Freestyles now use up the bard's daily uses of Bardic Music, instead of having their own uses per day (so yes, it takes two uses minimum to use a freestyle; one for the actual music and one for the freestyle).

Because of this overhaul, all of the old freestyles are no more. There is one freestyle for Inspire Courage, one for Inspire Greatness, and one for Inspire Heroics, plus Countersong for four total freestyles.

#7 Positively Charming was a really dumb name for a class feature. It was replaced with Way with Words, which is much more balanced. It now grants the bard more bonuses to a charisma check they make once per day.

#8 - Bards get two Bonus Bardic Music feats. One at 4th level, one at 17th. This was mostly to fill in dead levels, but I also feel like many people opt to take melee options and other feats over bardic music (many people, not all of them).

As always questions and concerns are welcome, comments and critiques are needed, thanks and have a great day here at Skynet Labs :).