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View Full Version : Need an ecl for a players "race"



lyko555
2009-09-07, 09:19 PM
Ok i started a 1 shot tomb of horrors today but 1 of the characters brought a homebrew race.
Ok so to start out it has a constant detect magic on him, as well as the ability to "teleport" without error. Mind you he can sense where the safe spot to land is. Within 50 feet. At will as a free action. What type of la would that cost ?

quick_comment
2009-09-07, 09:23 PM
It depends what level you are playing at.

At level 17? +1, teleportation is common

At level 1? I wouldnt allow it, long range teleportation should be impossible.

lyko555
2009-09-07, 09:40 PM
well he has it at will as a free action >.<

maybe i should change the forum to looking for a la
and the lvl setting is currently 12

quick_comment
2009-09-07, 09:42 PM
well he has it at will as a free action >.<


I would not allow this race

lyko555
2009-09-07, 09:44 PM
Yeah im currently on the idea to never let him run a character without a close inspection of his sheet again. and somehow hes running that as
a 0 la race >.<

Masaioh
2009-09-07, 09:48 PM
Did he make this himself, or did he take it from another source?

Maybe you could make it a standard action 3/day, and give him a reasonable LA like +2 or +3.

sofawall
2009-09-07, 09:48 PM
Ok i started a 1 shot tomb of horrors today but 1 of the characters brought a homebrew race.
Ok so to start out it has a constant detect magic on him, as well as the ability to "teleport" without error. Mind you he can sense where the safe spot to land is. Within 50 feet. At will as a free action. What type of la would that cost ?

Do not allow that race. It is a trap. He can move infinitely during his turn with no chance of repercussions. Free action teleport at will? No, do not allow. MAYBE swift, but even then it's really good. I wouldn't allow it, full stop.

Faleldir
2009-09-07, 09:49 PM
As a free action? You do realize he can take infinite free actions per round, right? That means infinite Shadow Pounce. At the very least, make it a swift action.

quick_comment
2009-09-07, 09:54 PM
To do this with feats would require a spell like ability of greater teleport, then taking the quicken spell like ability feat for greater teleport. This is impossible pre epic. And even then, its only once per round.

So a level 22 character could do a quickened greater teleport as an SLA only 3 times per day, and your player wants this at will, more than once per round?

LA +10.

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2009-09-07, 09:58 PM
To do this with feats would require a spell like ability of greater teleport, then taking the quicken spell like ability feat for greater teleport. This is impossible pre epic. And even then, its only once per round.

So a level 22 character could do a quickened greater teleport as an SLA only 3 times per day, and your player wants this at will, more than once per round?

LA +10.

This. Teleport is powerful. Teleport at will is over powered. Perfect teleportation at will as a free action is literally epic+. I can't think of a monster that has it. Unless your game is 30+, don't give them it. and with Tomb of Horrors, they'll teleport past all traps. DON'T GIVE IT TO THEM.

lyko555
2009-09-07, 09:59 PM
Yeah i killed it right off the bat as stupidly broken. It just irks me that he didnt even try to give it an la. He quote "never finished statting it up" i think it might have also given him umd as a skill as well.

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2009-09-07, 10:01 PM
Yeah i killed it right off the bat as stupidly broken. It just irks me that he didnt even try to give it an la. He quote "never finished statting it up" i think it might have also given him umd as a skill as well.
Yeah, at that point you roll your eyes and tell him he can be either a gnome, or an elf, for the rest of any time he plays your games. Maybe then he'll stop trying to pull one over on his DM.

lyko555
2009-09-07, 10:07 PM
nah i think im gonna make him be a dwarven bard .

Ozymandias9
2009-09-07, 10:11 PM
Ok i started a 1 shot tomb of horrors today but 1 of the characters brought a homebrew race.
Ok so to start out it has a constant detect magic on him, as well as the ability to "teleport" without error. Mind you he can sense where the safe spot to land is. Within 50 feet. At will as a free action. What type of la would that cost ?

A 50 foot errorless teleport at will as a free action is... problematic. Its particularly powerful, but not particularly versatile for combat purposes. Heck, 50 foot base movement would probably be worthy of a LA of 1, and this is much much better. Is there a particular reason that that cannot be scaled back?

If not, we need more information to go on. I generally do this by first desigining a MM entry for the race. Since the PC is bringing this race in, I assume there is some fluff that will have bearing on the crunch. Is the race fragile or hearty (i.e. how big are the hit die)?
Do they tend to be strong, smart, wise (what do we want to look at as far as ability penalties/bonuses?
Are they particularly capable combatants as a norm (what kind of attack bonuses are we looking at on the racial die)?
Are there any other extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like abilities? If not, we may honestly need to add some as filler (or buff up the stats) to get the race to a high enough CR that when overcoming the teleport is a reasonable goal, the race wouldn't suddenly fold as a challenge.

In reality, fleshing out this race will require getting close to, if not reaching epic levels.

Edit: The people making infinite movement comments:

Free actions donít take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn.
Still, swift or move would be at FAR less of an issue.

lyko555
2009-09-07, 10:18 PM
I couldnt just make him rewrite a character in the middle of a fight. ( they had just started fighting the gargoyle of doom.) so i made him cut it down as a move action. I do believe he is bringing a monk next game cause im gonna throw that toon through the stripping portal.

sofawall
2009-09-07, 10:22 PM
Yes, you can and should. If teleport is the only issue, you damn well can tell him it works differently now.

Faleldir
2009-09-07, 10:25 PM
Assuming this SLA is closer to DD than Teleport, just introduce a homebrew monster with Summon Monster IV as a free action at will. If he complains, tell him it's a 4th-level Sor/Wiz Conjuration spell, just like his character.

ericgrau
2009-09-07, 10:26 PM
Free action teleport, even swift action teleport is something not normally achievable pre-epic. Dimension door even keeps you from doing other actions after you teleport. A quickened teleport is 9th level. I'm guessing the reason is because a move plus a full round action is considered imba. I'd switch it to a standard action. Even then letting it be at will is pretty strong b/c he'll move past anything and everything that might be remotely dangerous just for kicks. And check other floors, etc. Limiting it to a certain number of times per day would lessen that.

I'm not sure what the LA would be, since I don't know of too many similar things. I'm gonna guess LA 3 or 4.

The detect magic at will is less problematic, but still significant b/c it's at will. I'd make sure he concentrates to do it (standard action each round). Even then it's a great scouting spell when you can spam it that much. Especially since it penetrates wooden doors. But given the teleport at will I'd be tempted to throw it in for free, or at most make in an additional +1 to LA.

The Glyphstone
2009-09-07, 10:29 PM
Wait, isn't using any sort of Teleportation in the Tomb basically a fancy means of suicide? Or is that going Ethereal?

lyko555
2009-09-07, 10:30 PM
Yes, you can and should. If teleport is the only issue, you damn well can tell him it works differently now.

Oh by rewrite I meant throwing that character sheet out the window and making him play a diffrent toon. I damn well did tell him that i wasnt allowing a lvl 12 character to do it at will as a free actiont that goes against the very action economy of dnd. On another note he may just not know the system that well hes used to 4.0 (ive never played it so dont know the rule changes).
He did try to AoO with a magic staff >.< and gave me deer eyes when i told him he was being stupid.


Wait, isn't using any sort of Teleportation in the Tomb basically a fancy means of suicide? Or is that going Ethereal?
Its going ethereal.

on a side note i did enjoy haveing a target on which i feel no remorse about screwing over. they actually let the gargoyle live, and have camped out for the night safe in a room accsesible only by narrow tunnels so it cant get to them. He some how decided he could cast alarm on every thing and now Mr. Gargoyle is sitting out in the hallway sticking his hand into the alarm and backing away to see it something comes out. roughly evry 15 min or so.

ericgrau
2009-09-07, 10:35 PM
What, a magic staff is still a big shaft of wood so I imagine it can still be used as a weapon. Might not be a very effective one, but it doesn't hurt to try (EDIT).

Looks like you'll need to guide him a bit, w/o getting too harsh since he doesn't know better.

Flickerdart
2009-09-07, 10:35 PM
What, a magic staff is still a big shaft of wood so I imagine it can still be used as a weapon. Might not be a very effective one, but it doesn't hurt.
I'd assume such a staff would hurt plenty.

lyko555
2009-09-07, 10:36 PM
What, a magic staff is still a big shaft of wood so I imagine it can still be used as a weapon. Might not be a very effective one, but it doesn't hurt.

No he was trying to use its cone of cold effect after he had already used it that turn then stepping away and saying if he aproaches me i get to AoO him with it again.

ericgrau
2009-09-07, 10:38 PM
Ah, then tell him you can't make AoO's with a bazooka. There's rotating and reloading issues that don't exactly shout "natural reflex".

lyko555
2009-09-07, 10:39 PM
Yep i made that very clear.

Flickerdart
2009-09-07, 10:41 PM
For LA+0 you could let him reflavour 5ft step in combat as a short-range teleport. In combat only, though: walking through walls that way is worth LA.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-07, 10:43 PM
Ok i started a 1 shot tomb of horrors today but 1 of the characters brought a homebrew race.
Ok so to start out it has a constant detect magic on him, as well as the ability to "teleport" without error. Mind you he can sense where the safe spot to land is. Within 50 feet. At will as a free action. What type of la would that cost ?

Make it dimension door: that way he can't do anything after teleporting.

sofawall
2009-09-07, 10:43 PM
No he was trying to use its cone of cold effect after he had already used it that turn then stepping away and saying if he aproaches me i get to AoO him with it again.

Wait, stepping away as an AoO is a feat itself, and it means you give up the attack, not in addition to...

He should learn the rules.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-07, 10:46 PM
If he wants a bonus, allow him to take two separate five foot steps in combat if he would normally be eligible to take one. This is still quite handy, and doesn't suffer from "look, I can cross the world instantly" imbalance.

Mind you, any custom race should be based on an existing race of the desired ECL. Just trade approximately equal bonuses out.

lyko555
2009-09-07, 10:46 PM
Wait, stepping away as an AoO is a feat itself, and it means you give up the attack, not in addition to...

He should learn the rules.

I meant he had used the staff that round and then backed away. expecting to be able to blast again as an AoO. Also i had to spend time telling him that just cause he had made the staff to be activated by pushing a button that triggering it didnt count as a free action >.<

DragoonWraith
2009-09-07, 11:08 PM
If he wants a bonus, allow him to take two separate five foot steps in combat if he would normally be eligible to take one. This is still quite handy, and doesn't suffer from "look, I can cross the world instantly" imbalance.
While I don't personally think it would be unbalanced (at all...) that definitely goes in the face of the design intention of Skrimish (whose 10' requirement is clearly intended to say "you may not full-attack and get Skirmish damage). Because apparently someone at WotC also thought Rogue's getting SA damage on every attack was broken...

(yes, I know Scouts get plenty of cool stuff beyond Skirmish, and Skirmish is generally much easier to achieve than Sneak Attack, but you get less Skirmish damage and really, Rogue's themselves could generally use more than they have, so getting less isn't so hot)

Emy
2009-09-07, 11:12 PM
He should learn the rules.

I agree with this. Definitely submit all of his characters to as much scrutiny as you can manage until he starts playing by the rules.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-07, 11:24 PM
While I don't personally think it would be unbalanced (at all...) that definitely goes in the face of the design intention of Skrimish (whose 10' requirement is clearly intended to say "you may not full-attack and get Skirmish damage). Because apparently someone at WotC also thought Rogue's getting SA damage on every attack was broken...

(yes, I know Scouts get plenty of cool stuff beyond Skirmish, and Skirmish is generally much easier to achieve than Sneak Attack, but you get less Skirmish damage and really, Rogue's themselves could generally use more than they have, so getting less isn't so hot)

Hmm...good point. Honestly, I don't see that being that big of a deal though. In any case, we can certainly agree that the infinite teleports as free actions is horrifically broken.

ashmanonar
2009-09-07, 11:37 PM
Oh by rewrite I meant throwing that character sheet out the window and making him play a diffrent toon. I damn well did tell him that i wasnt allowing a lvl 12 character to do it at will as a free actiont that goes against the very action economy of dnd. On another note he may just not know the system that well hes used to 4.0 (ive never played it so dont know the rule changes).

4th edition isn't that different, that a free action 50 foot teleport is reasonable. Not once (IIRC, epic levels might toy with it a bit) in 4th edition does such a thing become available. There is the eladrin fey step, which is a 5 square (25 feet) teleport which is available once an encounter/every 5 minutes. You have to have line of sight to your point of destination.

Didn't see what he was trying to do with AoO's. Again, 4th doesn't allow you to just ignore game rules. There are immediate action spells and abilities in 4th, but they're almost always narrowly defined and limited in scope.

Honestly, he's just trying to get crap past the radar. Tell him to pick a PHB race if he can't be trusted to honestly pick a race for something like this.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-07, 11:42 PM
Hmm...good point. Honestly, I don't see that being that big of a deal though. In any case, we can certainly agree that the infinite teleports as free actions is horrifically broken.
Oh, without question.


Didn't see what he was trying to do with AoO's. Again, 4th doesn't allow you to just ignore game rules. There are immediate action spells and abilities in 4th, but they're almost always narrowly defined and limited in scope.
No, he wasn't trying to whack someone with the staff, he was trying to activate the staff as an AoO. Though, really, I could see that being an honest mistake, really.

jcsw
2009-09-07, 11:42 PM
Doesn't using teleport in the Tomb of Horrors kinda summon hordes of demons after you or something. I mean, technically he could escape it but can he escape the hordes of angry PCs after that?

dspeyer
2009-09-07, 11:58 PM
Free action teleport, even swift action teleport is something not normally achievable pre-epic. Dimension door even keeps you from doing other actions after you teleport. A quickened teleport is 9th level.

You're forgetting the shadow blink maneuver (7th level). That's swift action, can act afterward, unlimited use per day (though it does take a full round of meditation to recharge). It's limited to 50 feet, but so is the racial ability. I'd call it LA 13 at most. It is a little better than the maneuver, but a level 13 swordsage has a lot of other tricks up his sleeve.

As for quickened teleport, there's always divine metamagic and the travel domain.

warrl
2009-09-08, 04:21 AM
4th edition isn't that different, that a free action 50 foot teleport is reasonable.

In fact there's a PHB1 race that gets a 25-foot teleport as a move action once an encounter.

Myou
2009-09-08, 04:56 AM
Wow, I'd never allow an LA +0 race with any kind of teleportation, let alone the best kid there is. That guy sounds like an awful munchkin. :smallyuk:

lyko555
2009-09-08, 04:59 AM
In fact there's a PHB1 race that gets a 25-foot teleport as a move action once an encounter.

Wich race is this? Maybe he was trying to go for a hombrew of it and failed.

Muyten
2009-09-08, 04:59 AM
In fact there's a PHB1 race that gets a 25-foot teleport as a move action once an encounter.

Yes but teleporting once every 5 mins. as a move action to a place you have line of sight to is nowhere near as broken as the teleport we are talking about.

Muyten
2009-09-08, 05:01 AM
Wich race is this? Maybe he was trying to go for a hombrew of it and failed.

Eladrin..kinda Lothlorien elf-like. But as I said they do it as a move action once every 5 mins and only to places they can see...which is not broken at all.

lyko555
2009-09-08, 05:08 AM
yeah no this telepoting was
him : "I jump into the room ive never seen before so I can get on the other side of the monster."
Me: ok well youve never seen into the room its really darkish and theres a big moster and ppl on the other side so im gonna scatter you. what type of damage do you take if you land in a person?

Him: none my power lets me sense where a good place to land is going to be mid teleport so its always safe.

Me Bull****

warrl
2009-09-08, 10:01 AM
Yes but teleporting once every 5 mins. as a move action to a place you have line of sight to is nowhere near as broken as the teleport we are talking about.

Actually, that's my point.

In fourth edition a carefully-designed race teleports 25 feet, line of sight only, as a regular move action, once per encounter.

Teleporting 50 feet, without seeing the destination, as a free action (or even a move action), at will, is definitely overpowered.