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John Cribati
2009-09-08, 08:49 AM
I've just started getting into D&D and after reading over the basics when it comes to classes, I got the idea of a monk/rogue. I'm thinking 4-6 levels of rogue first, then multiclassing so I wouldn't need to use weapons. Of course, the drawback is that I'd need to be a Lawful Rogue, which would be difficult, to say the least. But if I start as a monk and multiclass to rogue, I can't start taking monk levels ever again. Is this a good idea or should I just scrap it?

Glyde
2009-09-08, 08:52 AM
Two things: First on the alignment, second on the character mechanically.

Alignment: Playing a lawful rogue is indeed possible. Especially Lawful Evil. Lawful doesn't mean they abide by laws (Though it can mean that), it means that they abide by a strict moral code. Like... Won't betray an employer, or won't steal from a certain social class.

Character: It's possible, and is actually very fun. There's a feat called Ascetic Rogue which stacks your rogue and monk levels for the purposes of unarmed strike damage, and if you stunning fist on a sneak attack you add +2 to the DC. (Complete Adventurer)

In addition there's a feat called Superior Unarmed Strike that makes you whallop as a monk 4 levels higher. That's in Tome of Battle.

Remember that this isn't the most optimized, but its certainly very enjoyable. Add in drunken master and you start sneak attacking with benches and bar stools - Much fun to be had.

Master_Rahl22
2009-09-08, 09:33 AM
Another thing to keep in mind is that Rogue <> Thief. You can be a tricky, charming mercenary or whatever you want.

As for the order of taking the classes, there's the feat Monastic Training from Eberron. You pick a class, and taking levels in that class doesn't prevent you from going back to levels of Monk. It may actually be a waste of a feat since most of the time all you want is 2 levels of Monk anyway, but if you really think you'll want more Monk levels then that's the feat for you, in addition to the Ascetic Rogue thing.

Glyde
2009-09-08, 09:37 AM
I'm going to have to suggest that you get your DM to houserule out that multiclass restriction... I usually also have alignment restrictions lifted when possible (Except for things like paladin and assassin) because really... What if I wanted to be a chaotic guy who goes around with his fists? (Dont say swordsage)

Telonius
2009-09-08, 09:43 AM
Rogue19/Anything But Commoner1 is better than Rogue20, so yes, this is a perfectly good multiclass. Better HP, better saves, I would suggest putting as few levels in Monk as possible. Remember that Evasion doesn't stack on itself like Uncanny Dodge, so there's not much of a benefit of staying in Monk for the extra level. +1 to Fort and Will, 1hp, and a choice of Combat Reflexes/Deflect Arrows is not worth 1d6 sneak damage, a Rogue Ability, and 4 skill points.
(NOTE: Try to get your DM to use fractional BAB. Two +0s can hurt.)

PinkysBrain
2009-09-08, 09:44 AM
1 level of monk for the saves and the flurry of blows, any more is a waste.

quick_comment
2009-09-08, 09:44 AM
What if I wanted to be a chaotic guy who goes around with his fists? (Dont say swordsage)

Take improved unarmed strike, superior unarmed strike and improved natural attack(unarmed strike) on a fighter chassis.

quick_comment
2009-09-08, 09:45 AM
1 level of monk for the saves and the flurry of blows, any more is a waste.

Monk 2 gets you a feat, evasion, +1 BAB, +1 to all saves and better flurry. Its better than a level of fighter actually.

Fax Celestis
2009-09-08, 09:48 AM
Monk 2 gets you a feat, evasion, +1 BAB, +1 to all saves and better flurry. Its better than a level of fighter actually.

Rogue 2 gets you evasion too, soooooo...

kamikasei
2009-09-08, 09:56 AM
I would suggest taking your first level in rogue for the skill points, then a level of monk, then the rest of your levels in rogue with the Ascetic Rogue feat Glyde mentions. Better to get the sneak attack and skills (and other benefits of rogue levels), plus all the monk's unarmed strike, than go monk and miss out on the goodies rogue provides.

It's an interesting character concept.

Oh, and on the subject of alignment, the simplest thing is probably to say that you're part of an order of spies or assassins sworn to the service of some authority. That could put you anywhere on the lawful spectrum, easily, depending on the authority in question and what your oaths require you to do for them.

Human Paragon 3
2009-09-08, 09:59 AM
Since you'll be getting evasion twice, why not sub out one of them for an alternate class feature? You could sub out either evasion for Spell Reflection (complete Arcane or complete Mage, I forget which) or sub out monk's evasion for the ability to turn invisible practically at will (exemplars of evil).

Yora
2009-09-08, 10:44 AM
Or the really simple solution for lazy gms: When you gain a class feature you allready have from another class, take a feat instead. :smallbiggrin:

As for a not Łber-optimized character that is fun to play for beginners, I guess I would start at 1st level with rogue. And supposed the game ever gets to such high levels, I'd take either 4, 6, or 8 levels in monk (at least an even number of levels, the uneven ones aren't that usefull).

Forbiddenwar
2009-09-08, 11:03 AM
Since you'll be getting evasion twice, why not sub out one of them for an alternate class feature? You could sub out either evasion for Spell Reflection (complete Arcane or complete Mage, I forget which) or sub out monk's evasion for the ability to turn invisible practically at will (exemplars of evil).

Substitute it for invisible fist. Being invisible really helps your sneak attack.

John Cribati
2009-09-08, 03:10 PM
I'm more interested in the Monk class for the high ranks (is that what they're called?) in Jump. I also king of like how higher level monks are immune to poison and can understand any language, but the whole "become a celestial at level 20" makes it a bit too munchkin-friendly.

But basically, I could always make a case about not having a weapon making an extra circumstance bonus to a Hide or Move Silently Check.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-08, 03:11 PM
I'm more interested in the Monk class for the high ranks (is that what they're called?) in Jump. I also king of like how higher level monks are immune to poison and can understand any language,
Easily duplicateable with items.


but the whole "become a celestial at level 20" makes it a bit too munchkin-friendly.

Lol?

Seriously, I can be an outsider (what the monk becomes) at level 1 as an Aasimar. (MM race, LA +1)

Please explain how this is munchkiny. Your answer had better involve Polymorph.

Fax Celestis
2009-09-08, 03:13 PM
I'm more interested in the Monk class for the high ranks (is that what they're called?) in Jump. I also king of like how higher level monks are immune to poison and can understand any language, but the whole "become a celestial at level 20" makes it a bit too munchkin-friendly.

But basically, I could always make a case about not having a weapon making an extra circumstance bonus to a Hide or Move Silently Check.

The words "monk" and "munchkin friendly" should never be used in that fashion. The monk is widely considered to be an underpowered class (mostly due to conflicting class features--increased move speed but a full-attack option, for instance).

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-08, 03:17 PM
A single level of Monk for flurry of blows is nice - the more attacks the better, when it comes to Rogues. Most of the Monk's other class features are okay, but not essential.

Take Ascetic Rogue (Complete Adventurer) and you'll do fine.

kamikasei
2009-09-08, 03:21 PM
I'm more interested in the Monk class for the high ranks (is that what they're called?) in Jump. I also king of like how higher level monks are immune to poison and can understand any language, but the whole "become a celestial at level 20" makes it a bit too munchkin-friendly.

Rogue also has Jump as a class skill. The other abilities monks get are just too random and incoherent to be worth it in comparison to rogue skills and sneak attack.

What sources do you have available, by the way?

Person_Man
2009-09-08, 04:32 PM
In general, a Monk/Rogue multiclass is a bad idea. Consider strait Rogue instead. Or if you have high Str, Dex, Con, and Wis, you could also get by as a strait Monk in a low level campaign.

What are your build goals? What do you want to be able to do, and what books are available to you in order to do them?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-08, 04:36 PM
Of course, the drawback is that I'd need to be a Lawful Rogue, which would be difficult, to say the least.


Rogue
Alignment
Any.

How difficult could it be?

ericgrau
2009-09-08, 05:20 PM
Must be the stereotype.

So if you're starting with a couple of monk levels and switching to rogue, the question is: is there anything a low level monk has that can benefit a straight rogue? Well, you can flurry with monk weapons, and even combine that with TWF for more attacks. The attack penalty becomes a bummer at high levels, though, when you'd rather skip that -2 to 6 attacks rather than gaining a 7th attack (albeit at full AB).

Being armorless is a pain for the already fragile rogue, but compared to light armor it's not so bad. A friendly mage armor can fix that until you can afford decent AC magic items. Any wis bonus on top of that is icing on the cake; or dumping wis is fine too.

Stunning fist and improved grapple are both problematic. You could use stunning fist as a sneak attack trigger, but it's not as reliable as other triggers you might get. Grappling precludes sneak attack, unless you already have another SA trigger like greater invisibility. And it relies on strength, when you may need dex to finesse and cover both AB and AC (unless you have enough high stats to pump both). So the best option seems to be stunning fist, but without bothering to use it most of the time.

Combat reflexes, defect arrows, still mind, a speed boost (esp. for faster tumbles) and ki strike (magic) can all be handy things. After that abilities seem fairly minor, so I'd stop at level 4 for the sake of your BAB and saves.

Outside of combat you still make a fine skillmonkey.

All in all it doesn't seem like the most optimal option around, but it seems workable.

John Cribati
2009-09-08, 05:45 PM
If I sound like a complete D&D n00b, it's because I am, basically. I didn't read the entire rulebook; I don't even have my own. I'm one of those people who will learn more from actually playing than from reading any rulebook, so I just gleaned the basics off the D&D wiki, looked up the meaning of all the subtle jokes in OOts (and laughed heartily in a nerdish fashion afterwards), and here I am.

Anyway, the general consensus seems to be "low-to-no level monk, the rest rogue," and I guess I'd have to go with that, as you have more experience than I do.

So which race would go best with it? I'd probably go with human, but I don't think halfling would be so bad, as long as I don't get grappled or something like that.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-08, 05:46 PM
I'd say go Rogue for the first level for the skill points.

ericgrau
2009-09-08, 05:53 PM
Goblins have a decent dex and a 30 ft. speed, which is good if you plan on tumbling. An elf may work for a similar reason, and it has bonuses to some rogue-ish skills, but it has a nasty con penalty. Halfling works well too, plus you get a size bonus to AC & AB. Both handy. They're just slower. Besides the 30 ft. speed, human adds a feat and skill points, which help but aren't too critical for this build.

Godskook
2009-09-08, 05:54 PM
I'm more interested in the Monk class for the high ranks (is that what they're called?) in Jump. I also king of like how higher level monks are immune to poison and can understand any language, but the whole "become a celestial at level 20" makes it a bit too munchkin-friendly.

A)Monk and Munchkin are not allowed in the same sentence, except for this one, and this one: "No munchkin would ever take more than 2 levels in the SRD monk class".

B)If having jump as a class skill is the only reason you're taking monk, just stay in rogue. Seriously. Rogue gets better skill points and still has jump as a class skill. That's a non-reason for making the switch.


So which race would go best with it? I'd probably go with human, but I don't think halfling would be so bad, as long as I don't get grappled or something like that.

Actually, a small race would help you out a lot, and if you're worried about grappling, invest heavily in the escape artist skill.

Kylarra
2009-09-08, 06:13 PM
A)Monk and Munchkin are not allowed in the same sentence, except for this one, and this one: "No munchkin would ever take more than 2 levels in the SRD monk class".They might have 4!

but no more than that.

AslanCross
2009-09-08, 06:14 PM
Playing a Lawful rogue is indeed possible. I'm sure SWAT team members, counter terrorist operatives, and the like can be modeled as Lawful Fighter/Rogues. They're highly trained in various combat, combat-related and non-combat skills, and yet still support the order of society. Just because you can pick someone's pocket or break into a high-security institution doesn't mean you have to do it to steal for your own profit.

Now the problem with Monk/Rogue is that you spread out your ability scores too thinly. The Monk wants decent ability scores in Strength, Dex, Con, and Wisdom. The Rogue doesn't really need Strength, but would like Dex, Con, Intelligence, and (depending on what you want him/her to do) Charisma. This is cited as one of the biggest problems of the Monk: Multiple ability dependency, or MAD. It's hard to prioritize ability scores if you have so many that need boosting.

Godskook
2009-09-08, 06:16 PM
They might have 4!

but no more than that.

A munchkin? Guys who solely live to abuse game mechanics? Those guys? I'll take your word on it.

Kylarra
2009-09-08, 06:16 PM
Obligatory nod towards Kung-Fu Genius/Carmendine monk to reduce MAD (a smidge) by using Int to AC/stunning fist instead of wis.

Fuzzy_Juan
2009-09-08, 06:17 PM
Halfling might be good for the 'small' bonus to AB, AC, and hide. As a sneaky one, being small is nice. In most cases, some decent items can make up for any deficiency. Expiditious retreat for more movement, haste, amulets of mighty fists (enchanted with other weapon effects if you want for 'flaming fists'...there are rules for it somewhere, Arms and Equipment guide I think), rings of jump, and all manner of wands and scrolls with your UMD which shall be maxed!

Races of the Dragon...you may have heard of a spell called Mighty Wollop and its 'Greater' big brother...you WILL love these. Combied with improved natural attack can boost your unarmed damage through the roof.

To make up for relatively low HP for an unarmored frontline fighter, use vampiric touch to SA people...it's fun and keeps the squishy alive. Invest in dex/wis pumping effects and bracers/mage armor etc. You'll need it.

Optimized, no...requires alot of toolboxy effects to be on par with cheesemonkeys, yes...is it the worst build, no, not by far. Rogue 1, monk 1 (or 2 if you substitute evasion for something fun like that invisible feature), rogue X.

I have a rogue monk build myself, it is a blast. Never without a weapon =).

Curmudgeon
2009-09-08, 07:47 PM
A Monk/Rogue multiclass combination, even with Ascetic Rogue, is generally on the weak side. There are some nice plusses (good saves, WIS bonus to AC if unarmored), but the rest of what you get is rather weak compared to the Rogue abilities you don't get. And you'll have to deal with the possible multiclassing limitations. However, you can make the combo work for you.

With 1 level of Monk you're eligible to train with a Sparring Dummy of the Master (Arms and Equipment Guide). Completing this training lets you make a 10' adjustment whenever you have the option to take a 5' step. This alone can be a major tactical advantage, and is probably the best reason to dip into the Monk class. (Not having any Monk levels necessitates 224 consecutive DC 21 Use Magic Device checks without failure to enable training with the Sparring Dummy.) A 10' adjustment can help get you into flanking position for sneak attack, and it still doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.

1 level of Monk also gets you Improved Unarmed Strike, which is a requirement for the useful Snap Kick feat (Tome of Battle). However, since Bracers of Striking (Magic of FaerŻn) only cost 1,310 gp and also grant that feat, this isn't huge. Your unarmed damage is OK, but isn't significant because a Rogue's main damage comes from sneak attack. Flurry of Blows, without improvement, is only going to help if you can only hit on a natural 20; it's nearly useless since it lessens your chance of hitting and doing sneak attack damage. The 1st level bonus feats are also pretty much useless: Improved Grapple requires Strength, which is the most common dump stat for a Rogue, so you take Stunning Fist and maybe get one stun in a day.

A 2nd level of Monk is where things get more interesting. Your saves improve. The Flurry of Blows penalty drops, but it's still a so-so ability. The bonus feats remain weak: Improved Disarm imposes a light weapon penalty because you're probably doing so unarmed; and Improved Trip is again dependent on Strength, your dump stat. You gain Evasion, which you already get from Rogue level 2. Too bad, right? No, this is the good part. The Invisible Fist alternative class feature (Exemplars of Evil, page 21) lets you trade Monk evasion for the ability to become invisible as a swift action for 1 round, every 3 rounds. That's pretty much a guaranteed full round of sneak attacks. With 10' adjustments allowing you to get into flanking position most of the time, this will let you spend most of melee doing full rounds of sneak attack. That's pretty neat.

good_lookin_gus
2009-09-08, 09:29 PM
A 2nd level of Monk is where things get more interesting. Your saves improve. The Flurry of Blows penalty drops, but it's still a so-so ability. The bonus feats remain weak: Improved Disarm imposes a light weapon penalty because you're probably doing so unarmed; and Improved Trip is again dependent on Strength, your dump stat.

Actually, those are the 6th level bonus feats. At 2nd level you gain Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows.

Curmudgeon
2009-09-08, 09:39 PM
Actually, those are the 6th level bonus feats. At 2nd level you gain Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows. Right you are. Still, this doesn't change my assessment that these bonus feats don't add a lot to the class combination. Combat Reflexes would be the obvious choice, but in practice this isn't going to give you too many more attack opportunities. It's of limited use until you get the Opportunist class ability and Savvy Rogue feat, which won't be before 15th level (Rogue level 13). Normally Combat Reflexes would be required for entry into Shadowdancer, but getting Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight is less important with Invisible Fist.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-09-08, 11:36 PM
I've played one there alot of fun.

I would go human.

1 level of monk.
the rest rogue/ rogue prc.

human bonus feat should be kung fu genius.
Allows you to focus on Dex and int.
Grab weapon finesse at 3rd. Along with asthetic rogue.
Grab snap kick at some point and two weapon fighting...
and always try to flank untill you can afford a constant invis or other SA trigger you can get a ton of attacks and get a bunch of SA's off in a round.
its awsome

Person_Man
2009-09-09, 09:32 AM
Here's a really simple guide to being a Rogue:

1) The most important Skills are Use Magic Device, Tumble, Listen, and Spot. In particular, Use Magic Device lets you use Wands easily, which can let you do pretty much anything you want (if you can afford it). If you want to ambush enemies or scout, take Hide and Move Silently. If your DM uses a lot of traps take Search and Disable Device. Everything else is either very build specific or fluff.

2) Decide whether you want to be a ranged Rogue or a melee Rogue. Ranged is safer, but takes a lot more feats. Melee is easier and often more effective, but more dangerous (because it's easier for enemies to hit back).

3) Decide what feats you want. Here is a list of Sneak Attack feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66915). And the official Feat index (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats). And crystalkeep (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php) and realmshelp (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/datafind/feats.shtml).

In my opinion, the most important Rogue feats are:

Dragonfire Strike: Turns your Sneak Attack damage into energy damage, bypassing Precision Damage immunity, assuming your DM is nice about it (some argue that you must first deal the Sneak Attack damage before it becomes energy damage). Also adds +1d6 damage, which is nifty.

Staggering Strike: Enemy must Save (DC = damage) or be staggered for 1 round when you Sneak Attack them with a melee attack. Ridiculously useful against boss enemies, in that it prevents them from making a full attack or casting a full round action spells.

Craven: +1 damage per character level on every Sneak Attack. The equivalent of Power Attack without reducing your To-Hit bonus.

Darkstalker: Enemies with Tremorsense, Scent, Blindsight, etc, must still make a Spot check in order to locate you when you Hide. This makes it much easier for you to sneak up on enemies.

Two Weapon Fighting: If you're limited to core only-ish feats, then just take the TWF feat tree. It will give you more attacks.


4) Figure out how to qualify for Sneak Attack on every attack you make. Here's a handy list:

Ways to Qualify for Sneak Attack:

1) Ambush: If you ambush your enemy, you get a free Surprise Round against them. A Flat Footed enemy loses their Dex bonus until they act. Remember the the Surprise Round is only a Standard Action. So you'll need Greater Manyshot (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Greater_Manyshot_(Feat)) or Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) (remember that you can still Charge (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Charge) if your actions are limited) to get a full attack.

2) Win Initiative: If you win Initiative, you enemy is still Flat Footed, and still denied their Dex bonus.

3) Flanking: Have someone summon a lot of weak creatures. Here's a good list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5876523&postcount=16) of magic items to do just that.

4) More Flanking: Invest in Handle Animal. Buy a lot of dogs. They're cheap and easy to train.

5) Still More Flanking: Invest in Tumble, get behind your enemies, have your party's meatshield fight in front of them.

6) Yet More Flanking: Adaptable Flanker feat (PHBII) allows you to flank from any square. Combine with a reach weapon, and now you can stand next to or even behind a friend and still flank an enemy.

7) Tome of Battle Flanking: Island of Blades, a Shadow Hand stance allows you to flank from any square as long as you and an ally are both adjacent to the enemy. You can get this from a one level dip into Swordsage, or by taking the Martial Study -> Martial Stance feats.

8) Dear Gods, How Much Flanking Do We Need?: Obtain Familiar + Improved Familiar, if you can cast arcane spells. Now you have a full time friend to Flank with, and he can Share Spells with you (like Alter Self and Greater Invisibility).

9) Armor Lock (Complete Scoundrel): 1st level spell that works on enemies wearing armor for multiple rounds. Buy a wand.

10) Invisibility: Note that most Invisibility effects duplicate the Invisibility spell, which ends as soon as you make your first attack. So it's only useful at low levels, and for traditional scouting and ambushing tactics. The Ninja has Invisibility that lasts for 1 round, but with limited uses per day.

11) Greater Invisibility: Once your party hits level 7ish, there's really no reason someone in your group shouldn't cast this on you at the start of every combat.

12) Ring of Blinking: If you're party members are jerks and refuse to cast Greater Invisibility on you, use this item instead. Pick up the Pierce Magical Concealment feat (Complete Arcane) to ignore your own 20% miss chance.

13) Skill Tricks: Again, check out the Complete Scoundrel. Skill Tricks can be very useful (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633).

14) Fear: If your enemy is Cowering, he loses his Dex bonus. There are a large variety of ways to get and use Fear effects, and a variety of ways to corner or immobilize him.

15) Stun: If your enemy is stunned, he loses his Dex bonus. Work with the Monk in your party, or ask the caster to use spells with this effect.

16) Blind: If your enemy is blind, he loses his Dex bonus. There are a variety of spells and alchemical items that do this, plus the Focalor (Tome of Magic) or Kas vestige (Dragon Magazine 341), the Sand Dancer feat (Sandstorm), and others.

17) Helpless: There are a variety of spells and a few effects that render your foe paralyzed or otherwise helpless. A Rogue's Coup de Grace almost never fails.

18) Hide in Plain Site: There are many ways to get this. My favorite is a dip into Warlock let's you Hide in Plain Site (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352) every round as a Swift action. This means that any enemy who fails their Spot check is denied their Dex bonus against your next attack. Not efficient if you want to make full attacks, but helpful nonetheless.

19) Grappling: An opponent who is grappled loses their Dex bonus to everyone except the grappler, another way to tag team with your party members. Or invest in Handle animal and buy mules, which are a cheap and effective Grapple partner.

20) Net, Razor Net, Lasso: Each of these is a touch attack that imposes a -4 penalty on Dex. Penalties from different sources stack. Enemies with 0 Dex count as being paralyzed. I wouldn't even bother with taking the Exotic Weapon feats, because touch attacks are easy, so the -4 penalty to hit is palatable. Though I would definitely invest in Spell Storing weapons, and find spells that deal Dex damage/penalties. Here's a list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6342523&postcount=23) of ways to deal Dex damage.

21) Feint: This is a retarded waste of an action in most cases. But it works well at low levels if you're only making 1 attack per turn. Can be augmented to a limited degree with the Insightful Feint spell (Spell Compendium), and if you're an Invisible Blade with the Surprising Riposte feat (Drow of the Underdark) it works for a full attack.

22) Telling Blow (PHBII): When you crit, you also deal Sneak Attack. I'm not a fan of this method. It doesn't double your Sneak Attack if you flank and crit, WotC has made it clear that it just let's you qualify. So at best 30% of your attacks get Sneak Attack. There are many better uses for your feats, IMO.

23) More Tome of Battle Craziness: There are a bunch of maneuvers which render your enemy Flat Footed or otherwise deny them their Dex bonus, especially in the Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand disciplines. You can also get Sneak Attack via the Assassin's Stance, which still qualifies you for the best Sneak Attack feats (Staggering Strike, Craven, etc). So in many ways a Swordsage is a better Sneak Attacker then the Rogue. (Or you can go Rogue 1/Swordsage X or Swordsage X/Nightsong Enforcer 1 so that you can use other stances).

24) Confound the Bigfolk (Races of the Wild): It has some very specific mechanics you have to follow, but basically if you're two sizes smaller then your enemy then you can move into his square, and the next round heís Flat Footed against you, and when other enemies attack you they have a 50% chance of hitting the enemy in your square instead of you.


That should pretty much do it for you. But really, don't worry about being too powerful or whatnot. Just have a fun time roleplaying. Your DM (probably) won't screw with you too much in combat, so you don't have to worry about optimizing unless you play in a group of jerks.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-09, 09:35 AM
You may want to try out for Assassin as a Monk/Rogue. See if your DM will let you stack Arcane Trickster on top of that for even more fun.

Optimystik
2009-09-09, 09:41 AM
Any reason the OP isn't considering Ninja? are they really that bad? That's the first thing I thought of when I read "Monk/Rogue."

Or alternatively, a Ninja-esque PrC like SSN.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-09-09, 09:48 AM
You may want to try out for Assassin as a Monk/Rogue. See if your DM will let you stack Arcane Trickster on top of that for even more fun.

Do you guys think a Monk1/ Swashbuckler 3/ Rogue x is any good.. taking daring outlaw and aesthetic rogue and kung fu genious..

It would allow you to concentrate on Dex and Int.
You would get unarmed strikes as a 16 monk (20 if you take supiror unarmed).
full SA.
Int to DMG
Int to AC

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-09, 09:52 AM
Swashbuckler syngergizes well with Rogue.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-09-09, 09:53 AM
Swashbuckler syngergizes well with Rogue.

Ya and with kungfu genious it kinda does with monk as well.

Person_Man
2009-09-09, 09:55 AM
Any reason the OP isn't considering Ninja? are they really that bad? That's the first thing I thought of when I read "Monk/Rogue."

Or alternatively, a Ninja-esque PrC like SSN.

Ninja really sucks, IMO. The class is more MAD, Sudden Strike is harder to trigger then Sneak Attack, and all of the other class abilities can be duplicated by affordable magic items.

John Cribati
2009-09-09, 02:02 PM
Any reason the OP isn't considering Ninja? are they really that bad? That's the first thing I thought of when I read "Monk/Rogue."


Generally speaking, I would be a rogue anyway. I prefer speedy characters to powerful ones. I just liked the idea of a rogue who could go unarmed. Imagine going up against one of those Lawful Stupid paladin types who wouldn't hit a defenseless person, and didn't know I had taken a level of monk. I win Initiative! sure, it's a bit of a stretch, but I'm good at BS'ing like that. I could come up with hundreds of uses for unarmed combat.

Forbiddenwar
2009-09-09, 02:12 PM
4) Figure out how to qualify for Sneak Attack on every attack you make. Here's a handy list:


Ways to Qualify for Sneak Attack:

1) Ambush: If you ambush your enemy, you get a free Surprise Round against them. A Flat Footed enemy loses their Dex bonus until they act. Remember the the Surprise Round is only a Standard Action. So you'll need Greater Manyshot (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Greater_Manyshot_(Feat)) or Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) (remember that you can still Charge (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Charge) if your actions are limited) to get a full attack.

2) Win Initiative: If you win Initiative, you enemy is still Flat Footed, and still denied their Dex bonus.

3) Flanking: Have someone summon a lot of weak creatures. Here's a good list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5876523&postcount=16) of magic items to do just that.

4) More Flanking: Invest in Handle Animal. Buy a lot of dogs. They're cheap and easy to train.

5) Still More Flanking: Invest in Tumble, get behind your enemies, have your party's meatshield fight in front of them.

6) Yet More Flanking: Adaptable Flanker feat (PHBII) allows you to flank from any square. Combine with a reach weapon, and now you can stand next to or even behind a friend and still flank an enemy.

7) Tome of Battle Flanking: Island of Blades, a Shadow Hand stance allows you to flank from any square as long as you and an ally are both adjacent to the enemy. You can get this from a one level dip into Swordsage, or by taking the Martial Study -> Martial Stance feats.

8) Dear Gods, How Much Flanking Do We Need?: Obtain Familiar + Improved Familiar, if you can cast arcane spells. Now you have a full time friend to Flank with, and he can Share Spells with you (like Alter Self and Greater Invisibility).

9) Armor Lock: 1st level spell from Complete Scoundrel that works on enemies wearing armor. Buy a wand.

10) Greater Invisibility: Once your party hits level 7ish, there's really no reason someone in your group shouldn't cast this on you at the start of every combat.

11) Ring of Blinking: If you're party members are jerks and refuse to cast Greater Invisibility on you, use this item instead. Pick up the Pierce Magical Concealment feat (Complete Arcane) to ignore your 20% miss chance.

12) Skill Tricks: Again, check out the Complete Scoundrel. Skill Tricks can be very useful (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633).

13) Fear: If your enemy is Cowering, he loses his Dex bonus. There are a large variety of ways to get and use Fear effects, and a variety of ways to corner or immobilize him.

14) Stun: If your enemy is stunned, he loses his Dex bonus. Work with the Monk in your party, or ask the caster to use spells with this effect.

15) Blind: If your enemy is blind, he loses his Dex bonus. There are spells and alchemical items that do this.

16) Helpless: There are a variety of spells and a few effects that render your foe paralyzed or otherwise helpless. A Rogue's Coup de Grace almost never fails.

17) Hide in Plain Site: There are many ways to get this. My favorite is a dip into Warlock let's you Hide in Plain Site (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352) every round as a Swift action. This means that any enemy who fails their Spot check is denied their Dex bonus against your next attack. Not efficient if you want to make full attacks, but helpful nonetheless.

18) Grappling: An opponent who is grappled loses their Dex bonus to everyone except the grappler, another way to tag team with your party members. Or invest in Handle animal and buy mules, which are a cheap and effective Grapple partner.

19) Net, Razor Net, Lasso: Each of these is a touch attack that imposes a -4 penalty on Dex. Penalties from different sources stack. Enemies with 0 Dex count as being paralyzed. I wouldn't even bother with taking the Exotic Weapon feats, because touch attacks are easy, so the -4 penalty to hit is palatable. Though I would definitely invest in Spell Storing weapons, and find spells that deal Dex damage/penalties. Here's a list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6342523&postcount=23) of ways to deal Dex damage.

20) Feint: This is a retarded waste of an action in most cases. But it works well at low levels if you're not using TWF, and if you're an Invisible Blade with the Surprising Riposte feat (Drow of the Underdark), it works for a full attack.

21) Telling Blow (PHBII): When you crit, you also deal Sneak Attack. I'm not a fan of this method. It doesn't double your Sneak Attack if you flank and crit, WotC has made it clear that it just let's you qualify. So at best 30% of your attacks get Sneak Attack. There are many better uses for your feats, IMO.

22) More Tome of Battle Craziness: There are a bunch of manuevers which render your enemy Flat Footed or otherwise deny them their Dex bonus, especially in the Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand disciplines. You can also get Sneak Attack via the Assassin's Stance, which still qualifies you for the best Sneak Attack feats (Staggering Strike, Craven, etc). So in many ways a Swordsage is a better Sneak Attacker then the Rogue. (Or you can go Rogue 1/Swordsage X or Swordsage X/Nightsong Enforcer 1 so that you can use other stances).

That should pretty much do it for you. But really, don't worry about being too powerful or whatnot. Just have a fun time roleplaying. Your DM (probably) won't screw with you too much in combat, so you don't have to worry about optimizing unless you play in a group of jerks.

What about fienting?

From d20
Feinting in Combat
You can also use Bluff to mislead an opponent in melee combat (so that it canít dodge your next attack effectively). To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by your targetís Sense Motive check, but in this case, the target may add its base attack bonus to the roll along with any other applicable modifiers.

If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it. This attack must be made on or before your next turn.


What about invisible fist? available at 1st level, great invisibility for every 1 round in 3.

Seems odd that your list didn't mention those.

Person_Man
2009-09-09, 04:11 PM
What about fienting?

From d20
Feinting in Combat
You can also use Bluff to mislead an opponent in melee combat (so that it canít dodge your next attack effectively). To feint, make a Bluff check opposed by your targetís Sense Motive check, but in this case, the target may add its base attack bonus to the roll along with any other applicable modifiers.

If your Bluff check result exceeds this special Sense Motive check result, your target is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) for the next melee attack you make against it. This attack must be made on or before your next turn.


What about invisible fist? available at 1st level, great invisibility for every 1 round in 3.

Seems odd that your list didn't mention those.

Feinting is on my list at #20. Though Feinting is generally a bad idea, since it takes a feat to use as a Move Action, and only applies to your next melee attack (one attack). In general, a Rogue (even a 1st level Rogue) should be making 2+ attacks every turn whenever possible.

I'm not familiar with Invisible Fist. If you cite a book and pg number, I'd be happy to look it up and add it to the list if it's viable.

Fax Celestis
2009-09-09, 04:18 PM
I'm not familiar with Invisible Fist. If you cite a book and pg number, I'd be happy to look it up and add it to the list if it's viable.

IIRC, it's an Alternate Class Feature for monks in Exemplars of Evil. I forget the precise mechanics though.

Curmudgeon
2009-09-09, 04:38 PM
Do you guys think a Monk1/ Swashbuckler 3/ Rogue x is any good.. taking daring outlaw and aesthetic rogue and kung fu genious..

It would allow you to concentrate on Dex and Int.
You would get unarmed strikes as a 16 monk (20 if you take supiror unarmed).
full SA.
Int to DMG
Int to AC
There are all sorts of problems with this. First, it's Ascetic Rogue, not aesthetic. Ascetic is rigorously simple; aesthetic is flower arranging. :smalltongue:

Second, you lose the multiclassing benefits of Ascetic Rogue when you add in Swashbuckler levels.

Third, you face multiclassing XP penalties of 40% when you have two different classes that are more than 1 level behind your most advanced class. This sucks, a lot.

Fourth, it's Kung Fu Genius, not genious.

Fifth, Kung Fu Genius helps with Monk special abilities that normally rely on Wisdom. That list of abilities has only one entry, their AC Bonus. You'd still need Wisdom for Spot and Listen (skills that are important for almost any Rogue), as well as Sense Motive.

Sixth, you don't get "full SA". Daring Outlaw only combines Rogue and Swashbuckler levels for sneak attack damage. Your Monk levels would detract from sneak attack progression.

Seventh, by taking these three feats you're not satisfying more important feat needs for a (mostly) Rogue build, such as Craven (Champions of Ruin), Darkstalker (Lords of Madness), and Savvy Rogue (Complete Scoundrel). And any unarmed strike build requires Snap Kick (Tome of Battle).

So no, I don't think this is a good combination. You lose far more than you gain.

What about invisible fist? available at 1st level, great invisibility for every 1 round in 3.
Invisible Fist is not available at 1st level.

I'm not familiar with Invisible Fist. If you cite a book and pg number, I'd be happy to look it up and add it to the list if it's viable.
I referenced both the source and mechanics in my first post.

deuxhero
2009-09-09, 04:39 PM
^Does any sane DM acctually use the XP penalty rules?
I'd take monk/scout if I took anything like you are trying. There is actual synergy.

Curmudgeon
2009-09-09, 04:43 PM
^Does any sane DM acctually use the XP penalty rules?
Of course. I do, as do all the DMs I play with. This cuts way back on the power creep of people dipping into multiple base classes.

Person_Man
2009-09-09, 04:57 PM
IIRC, it's an Alternate Class Feature for monks in Exemplars of Evil. I forget the precise mechanics though.

Ah, there it is. A Monk can give up Evasion and Improved Evasion. You gain the ability to turn Invisible for 1 round as an Immediate Action, but you must wait 3 rounds to activate it again. At 9th level, you can Blink for a number of rounds equal to your Wis mod.

The Invisibility mechanic is pretty useless for 3/4 of combat, so I don't see that as a viable strategy. The Blink mechanic is better, but it's a Supernatural effect, so you can't get out of the 20% miss chance with Pierce Magical Concealment, and thus you'd whiff on 1/5 of your attacks unless you can find some other way to overcome your own miss chance.

If you're a Monk/Rogue and want to give up your extra Evasion for something useful, I'd much rather have Spell Reflection (www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061010a).

deuxhero
2009-09-09, 04:57 PM
A tactic only useful for underpowered melee classes but does nothing for casters...

DragoonWraith
2009-09-09, 05:00 PM
Of course. I do, as do all the DMs I play with. This cuts way back on the power creep of people dipping into multiple base classes.
Number of classes in a build is in no way indicative of power level.

Gan The Grey
2009-09-09, 05:11 PM
Now the problem with Monk/Rogue is that you spread out your ability scores too thinly. The Monk wants decent ability scores in Strength, Dex, Con, and Wisdom. The Rogue doesn't really need Strength, but would like Dex, Con, Intelligence, and (depending on what you want him/her to do) Charisma. This is cited as one of the biggest problems of the Monk: Multiple ability dependency, or MAD. It's hard to prioritize ability scores if you have so many that need boosting.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I would see a MAD reduction from playing a monk/rogue. Strength becomes less important, because you are relying on the extra damage die from sneak attack. And since this character won't be making use of two-handed weapons or power attack, it really isn't that big of a deal.

With the Kung-Fu Genius feat, you can basically eliminate wisdom as a necessary attribute. True, you will still have skills that rely on them, but a rogue has those skills and doesn't really need wisdom, so the extra skill points you'd get from putting a good score into intelligence would make up for that.

So, really, in the end, a monk/rogue would only need Dex, Con, and Int to fulfill their design niche.

Curmudgeon
2009-09-09, 05:15 PM
Number of classes in a build is in no way indicative of power level.
It generally is, if we're talking about the same classes. Here we're talking about Rogue and Monk classes. Rogue is a fairly solid class, with only two "dead" levels (14 and 20). Still, Rogue 20 is probably going to be less powerful than a multiclass combination of Rogue with others. And do I really have to compare Monk 20 to anything else involving a Monk dip? The dip is going to be superior for anything reasonable.

Fax Celestis
2009-09-09, 05:23 PM
It generally is, if we're talking about the same classes. Here we're talking about Rogue and Monk classes. Rogue is a fairly solid class, with only two "dead" levels (14 and 20). Still, Rogue 20 is probably going to be less powerful than a multiclass combination of Rogue with others. And do I really have to compare Monk 20 to anything else involving a Monk dip? The dip is going to be superior for anything reasonable.

Compare, then:

Wizard 20
v.
Duskblade 5/Warblade 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 9/Abjurant Champion 5
v.
Rogue 2/Druid 1/Bard 3/Fochlucan Lyrist 10/Mystic Theurge 4

Curmudgeon
2009-09-09, 05:34 PM
Compare, then:

Wizard 20
How does that have anything to do with Rogues or Monks?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-09, 05:44 PM
How does that have anything to do with Rogues or Monks?

He's talking about multiclassing = power level.

Curmudgeon
2009-09-09, 05:50 PM
He's talking about multiclassing = power level.
So? That's off-topic for a Monk/Rogue multiclass thread. Talk about Rogue 20 versus Rogue X/something else, or Monk 20 versus Monk X/something else. Let's try to keep the discussion relevant.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-09, 11:15 PM
So? That's off-topic for a Monk/Rogue multiclass thread. Talk about Rogue 20 versus Rogue X/something else, or Monk 20 versus Monk X/something else. Let's try to keep the discussion relevant.He's responding to the statement that "Of course. I do, as do all the DMs I play with. This cuts way back on the power creep of people dipping into multiple base classes." That's a general statement, referring to the game as a whole, not just the builds being discussed.
On that topic:Most of the more powerful classes(tier 2 or 1) have very few builds that would activate multiclass penalties(generally either Gish or Theurge builds, which are weaker than going straight in the base class). The weaker classes, however, get a significant power boost from being allowed to multiclass freely. We're talking here about a tier 4 being allowed to multiclass with a tier 3(yes, I know, take that debate elsewhere). There is no combination of those 2 that will boost it to a tier 2 build, so why would you limit the weaker classes in a way that doesn't hinder the stronger ones?

AslanCross
2009-09-09, 11:42 PM
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I would see a MAD reduction from playing a monk/rogue. Strength becomes less important, because you are relying on the extra damage die from sneak attack. And since this character won't be making use of two-handed weapons or power attack, it really isn't that big of a deal.

With the Kung-Fu Genius feat, you can basically eliminate wisdom as a necessary attribute. True, you will still have skills that rely on them, but a rogue has those skills and doesn't really need wisdom, so the extra skill points you'd get from putting a good score into intelligence would make up for that.

So, really, in the end, a monk/rogue would only need Dex, Con, and Int to fulfill their design niche.

That's a good point. I totally forgot about Kung-Fu Genius.

That name still makes me chuckle. It brings back images of badly-dubbed Friday afternoon movies.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-09, 11:43 PM
http://www.kungfumovies.net/images/14490.jpg

ghost_warlock
2009-09-10, 12:14 AM
What if I wanted to be a chaotic guy who goes around with his fists? (Dont say swordsage)

Battledancer (Dragon Compendium). Plus, full BAB. :smallwink:

Cha-based, though, if that matters.

Darrin
2009-09-10, 08:37 AM
What if I wanted to be a chaotic guy who goes around with his fists? (Dont say swordsage)

Shou Disciple or Fist of the Forest can also get you the equivalent of a monk's unarmed strike. With Superior Unarmed Strike, Improved Natural Attack, Warforged Mighty Arms/Battlefist, some Enlarge Person/Expansion size increases, and one of the Totemist soulmelds (Totem Avatar), you can actually buff up your unarmed damage to pretty decent levels, or at least enough to make most monks cry.

Person_Man
2009-09-10, 09:05 AM
http://www.kungfumovies.net/images/14490.jpg

Pharaoh's Fist wins the thread!