PDA

View Full Version : Combat Expertise with <13 INT?



DragoonWraith
2009-09-10, 11:03 PM
Is there any class which grants Combat Expertise as a bonus feat, even if you do not meet the 13 INT requirement?

Deepblue706
2009-09-10, 11:05 PM
.Negatory.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-10, 11:07 PM
Passive Way (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#passiveWay) Monk from UA

Kylarra
2009-09-10, 11:10 PM
Passive Way (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#passiveWay) Monk from UAArguably being a monk is somewhat detracting to most combat builds though.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-10, 11:12 PM
The Decisive Blow ACF isn't too bad for Control. It's great when combined with Robiliar's Gambit and Karmic Strike.

Deepblue706
2009-09-10, 11:14 PM
Passive Way (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#passiveWay) Monk from UA

No. I already said no. That means nobody else should post. I don't care if you're right.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-10, 11:15 PM
No. I already said no. That means nobody else should post. I don't care if you're right.

Yeah, that's what she said.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-10, 11:16 PM
It would definitely be a 1-level dip. If it weren't for the 3/4 BAB, though, I'd lose nothing doing it. As it is, it's either that or swap my 14 in Str for the 12 in Int, or spend one of my bonus ability points in Int (and actually having 13 Int would kinda suck).

Man, why does Champion of Corethan Lorellion have so many requisite feats? Why do they all have to suck?

Ernir
2009-09-11, 04:52 AM
What are you trying to build, DW?

In any case, a fun way to solve ability dependencies like that is to just make that necessary stat your primary one. Can this be turned into an Int/Dex-fighter?

Telonius
2009-09-11, 08:12 AM
Hmmm ... well, one way to make it work for you would be to take three levels of Swashbuckler to get Insightful Strike. Switch the Str and Int, you won't need more than 12 Str to start to make this work.

How's about this?
Swashbucker1 - Dodge, Weapon Finesse
Sws2
Sws3 - Insightful Strike, Combat Expertise
Sws3/Fighter1 - EWP Courtblade, STR +1
Sws3/Fighter2 - Mounted Combat
Sws3/Fighter3 - Power Attack
Sws3/Fighter4 - some other Fighter feat

Unusual build, but it would meet all the prereqs for Champion of Corellon, and allow you to focus exclusively on Dex and Int. You'll be adding both Dex and Int to damage in most cases after you get Elegant Strike from Corellon. You'll be able to start out your PrC levels starting at 8. You could also switch out those last two fighter levels to anything else - maybe Rogue with Daring Outlaw as your 9th level feat, for 3d6 sneak attack dice, if you don't mind sacrificing +1BAB and delaying the PrC by one more level.

The drawback is that you need to be in light armor, but with your higher Dex that shouldn't be as much of a problem.

Crow
2009-09-11, 10:31 AM
Can he get a headband of intellect to get the feat and just try not to take it off?

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-11, 10:38 AM
It would definitely be a 1-level dip. If it weren't for the 3/4 BAB, though, I'd lose nothing doing it. As it is, it's either that or swap my 14 in Str for the 12 in Int, or spend one of my bonus ability points in Int (and actually having 13 Int would kinda suck).

Man, why does Champion of Corethan Lorellion have so many requisite feats? Why do they all have to suck?

It isn't the requirements for entering that sucks, it's the requirements for those requirements. Many feats have very poor prereqs (Weapon Finesse), and its one of the reasons people call the Fighter MAD (Dex (Combat Reflexes), Str (Power Attack), Int (Combat Expertise), a Con score of at least 16 if he's getting into melee at all, and possibly Wis (Combat Focus)). Even with 32 PB, the Fighter has some trouble meeting requirements all around.

You're going for Champion of CL? Why are you using Str of Dex? That is the PrC that gets Dex to Damage, right?

deuxhero
2009-09-11, 10:41 AM
Why do you want it? If it is for a prerequisite? Improved Trip (most common reason to pick CE up) can be gotten via 2 levels in wolf totem Barbarian.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-11, 10:42 AM
It's for Champion of CL

deuxhero
2009-09-11, 10:43 AM
Champion of CL? What is CL?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-11, 10:49 AM
Corethan Lorellion

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-11, 10:50 AM
Champion of CL? What is CL?

It means he's doing the God of Elves' job because Elves are a bunch of pansies.

Telonius
2009-09-11, 10:54 AM
Also apropos as Champion of Caster Level, since elves have Wizard as their favored class for some reason (even though their racial abilities make them better suited to Rogues).

riddles
2009-09-11, 10:58 AM
monk (especially passive way monk) works as a dip for sacred fist or any psionics.

that is all.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-11, 10:59 AM
Also apropos as Champion of Caster Level, since elves have Wizard as their favored class for some reason (even though their racial abilities make them better suited to Rogues).

That Con penalty does not look appealing.

deuxhero
2009-09-11, 11:04 AM
Nor does physical and mental growth that is a tenth of a humans, but elfs are perfect and suebeautiful am i rite?...

In case you don't realize it, I hate elfs for reasons OTHER than being stolen from


Anyways, geting CE without int 13 really requires knowing WHY the TC wants it.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-11, 11:10 AM
Nor does physical and mental growth that is a tenth of a humans, but elfs are perfect and suebeautiful am i rite?...

In case you don't realize it, I hate elfs for reasons OTHER than being stolen from

Wait, you have a reason to hate elves?



:smallwink:

ericgrau
2009-09-11, 11:10 AM
You can still qualify with a +2/+4/+6 int item IIRC. You can't use the feat and feats reliant on it when you take the item off.

Kylarra
2009-09-11, 11:12 AM
Anyways, geting CE without int 13 really requires knowing WHY the TC wants it.


Man, why does Champion of Corethan Lorellion have so many requisite feats? Why do they all have to suck?



That's why :smallwink:

deuxhero
2009-09-11, 11:24 AM
Wait, you have a reason to hate elves?



:smallwink:

You have to have a reason other than being pricks about how they are "perfect" but fail massivly compared to humans?

Anyways, I have no knowledge of CoCL, but I assume it is to meet a pre-requiste for the PRC. I know Complete Scoundrel gives you bonus feats (mostly the ones you take only for a prerequisite) for pilgrimages (or gold if taken at character creation), don't know if CE is one of them.

Kylarra
2009-09-11, 11:28 AM
Well in 2e they really were superior to humans... other than the stunted learning progression which was put in to explain the fact that elves hadn't taken over the world.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-11, 03:10 PM
What are you trying to build, DW?

In any case, a fun way to solve ability dependencies like that is to just make that necessary stat your primary one. Can this be turned into an Int/Dex-fighter?
No, already a Dex/Cha fighter. Knight 5/Dualist (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Dualist_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)) 5/get-into-Champion-of-CL (probably 3)/Champion-of-CL (whaever's left).

Yes, I know Knight's weak, but I really want Test of Mettle for the character, and Vigilant Defender also adds quite a bit. At this point, Knight 5/Dualist 5 is immutable.


Hmmm ... well, one way to make it work for you would be to take three levels of Swashbuckler to get Insightful Strike. Switch the Str and Int, you won't need more than 12 Str to start to make this work.

How's about this?
Swashbucker1 - Dodge, Weapon Finesse
Sws2
Sws3 - Insightful Strike, Combat Expertise
Sws3/Fighter1 - EWP Courtblade, STR +1
Sws3/Fighter2 - Mounted Combat
Sws3/Fighter3 - Power Attack
Sws3/Fighter4 - some other Fighter feat

Unusual build, but it would meet all the prereqs for Champion of Corellon, and allow you to focus exclusively on Dex and Int. You'll be adding both Dex and Int to damage in most cases after you get Elegant Strike from Corellon. You'll be able to start out your PrC levels starting at 8. You could also switch out those last two fighter levels to anything else - maybe Rogue with Daring Outlaw as your 9th level feat, for 3d6 sneak attack dice, if you don't mind sacrificing +1BAB and delaying the PrC by one more level.

The drawback is that you need to be in light armor, but with your higher Dex that shouldn't be as much of a problem.
A very good build, but it doesn't fit the char.


Can he get a headband of intellect to get the feat and just try not to take it off?
You can still qualify with a +2/+4/+6 int item IIRC. You can't use the feat and feats reliant on it when you take the item off.
Possibly. Might be the best option.


It isn't the requirements for entering that sucks, it's the requirements for those requirements. Many feats have very poor prereqs (Weapon Finesse), and its one of the reasons people call the Fighter MAD (Dex (Combat Reflexes), Str (Power Attack), Int (Combat Expertise), a Con score of at least 16 if he's getting into melee at all, and possibly Wis (Combat Focus)). Even with 32 PB, the Fighter has some trouble meeting requirements all around.

You're going for Champion of CL? Why are you using Str of Dex? That is the PrC that gets Dex to Damage, right?
Well, we're talking about a Dex-based fighter - I already have Weapon Finesse, Combat Reflexes, EWP (Elven Thinblade), and a bunch of AoO-and-critical-improving class features. Now I just want Dex-to-damage, and Champion of CL's about the only reasonable way to get it.



Eh, I'll have to see. I might be able to convince the DM to waive some of the silly requirements, perhaps. Heh, I'm already going to have to get rid of several, like, ya know, the whole "being an Elf" thing, cuz I'm not. Ideally, I'd also actually like to cut Corellan Larethian from the equation entirely, too. I'm sort of hoping that if I cut the Corellan's Blessing and Wrath features, I can also ditch the Elf, worship CL, and have CE and Dodge requirements (already have Mounted Combat thanks to Knight).

Alternatively, it'd be kind of awesome to qualify for Champion of CL by becoming a Ruathar. That'd be a neat trick.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-11, 04:42 PM
Well, we're talking about a Dex-based fighter - I already have Weapon Finesse, Combat Reflexes, EWP (Elven Thinblade), and a bunch of AoO-and-critical-improving class features. Now I just want Dex-to-damage, and Champion of CL's about the only reasonable way to get it.

Wow. You've spent a lot on this character. Why didn't you just use some of the Fighter feats for Shadow Blade and a Spiked Chain? That gets Dex and Str to damage.

I wouldn't bother with the Critical Hit improvements effects. The ability won't trigger as often as you think it will. Even with a 15-20 Crit threat, you still only have a 25% chance. While the laws of probability say 1 in 4 attacks, it will be more likely to favor numbers under 14 because you are rolling a d20, not a d4.

Focusing on your critical hits isn't that good. It looks tempting, but I see an average of 2 crits a session as a DM between 6+ players. The exception is when I use the jinxed die against a specific player, but that's because that particular die is enacting karmic vengeance upon said player (superstition here, the die is perfectly harmless, it just seems to roll well against him and him alone).

I'm not gonna stop you, but when an ability of yours will only function 25% of the time, you can safely say that ability isn't reliable. It just seems kinda pointless to focus on something unless you can get it to a 50% chance of happening.

KillianHawkeye
2009-09-11, 05:51 PM
Corethan Lorellion

I dunno if you did that on purpose or something, but it's actually Corellon Larethian. :smallwink:

Although I prefer how 4E just calls him Corellon.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-11, 05:59 PM
Wow. You've spent a lot on this character. Why didn't you just use some of the Fighter feats for Shadow Blade and a Spiked Chain? That gets Dex and Str to damage.
Because I like the Thinblade? What's Shadow Blade, though, that sounds cool.


I wouldn't bother with the Critical Hit improvements effects. The ability won't trigger as often as you think it will. Even with a 15-20 Crit threat, you still only have a 25% chance. While the laws of probability say 1 in 4 attacks, it will be more likely to favor numbers under 14 because you are rolling a d20, not a d4.
Yes, except I could ultimately have 1d8 13-20/x3 (+1 to the critical threat range of weapons with Greater Weapon Focus, +1 to critical hit multiplier of weapons with Greater Weapon Specialization, and alternate requirements for each so that I can take them), with a +2 to confirm rolls (+6 if I got Power Critical), on a TWF build. And while that still might be underpowered, I like crit-focused characters. D&D 3.5 has an irritating lack of support for finesse fighters, but I'm going to try my darnedest to make one.


Focusing on your critical hits isn't that good. It looks tempting, but I see an average of 2 crits a session as a DM between 6+ players. The exception is when I use the jinxed die against a specific player, but that's because that particular die is enacting karmic vengeance upon said player (superstition here, the die is perfectly harmless, it just seems to roll well against him and him alone).

I'm not gonna stop you, but when an ability of yours will only function 25% of the time, you can safely say that ability isn't reliable. It just seems kinda pointless to focus on something unless you can get it to a 50% chance of happening.
Critical hits are not her only ability, don't worry. It's a large facet of the character, but not everything.


I dunno if you did that on purpose or something, but it's actually Corellon Larethian. :smallwink:

Although I prefer how 4E just calls him Corellon.
He was copying me, because I made that mistake in my post.

ZeroNumerous
2009-09-11, 06:00 PM
Wait. Why do you have EWP(Elven Thinblade)? Isn't there a feat that turns your species' weapons into martial weapons for you?

DragoonWraith
2009-09-11, 06:03 PM
Wait. Why do you have EWP(Elven Thinblade)? Isn't there a feat that turns your species' weapons into martial weapons for you?
Because I'm not an Elf? Yeah, as I noted, I'm already going to have to get my DM to waive some requirements.

Regardless, the Thinblade's the only one I'd actually use anyway, so a feat's a feat.

Roog
2009-09-11, 06:28 PM
Well, we're talking about a Dex-based fighter - I already have Weapon Finesse, Combat Reflexes, EWP (Elven Thinblade), and a bunch of AoO-and-critical-improving class features. Now I just want Dex-to-damage, and Champion of CL's about the only reasonable way to get it.

Eh, I'll have to see. I might be able to convince the DM to waive some of the silly requirements, perhaps. Heh, I'm already going to have to get rid of several, like, ya know, the whole "being an Elf" thing, cuz I'm not. Ideally, I'd also actually like to cut Corellan Larethian from the equation entirely, too. I'm sort of hoping that if I cut the Corellan's Blessing and Wrath features, I can also ditch the Elf, worship CL, and have CE and Dodge requirements (already have Mounted Combat thanks to Knight).

For DEX to Damage without Champion of CL you could try the Feat Shadow Blade from ToB.

Technically Shadow Blade can only be used with dagger, sai, siangham, short sword, spiked chain, or unarmed strike. However you could reasobably argue that an elven lightblade (18-20 crit, assuming that was important) could be treated as a short sword for the purpose of Shadow Hand.


Characters proficient with the elven lightblade may treat it as a rapier or a short sword for the purpose of any of the following feats: Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization.

However you would require the Martial Stance and Martial Study feats to qualify for Shadow Blade without taking a level of Swordsage.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-11, 06:54 PM
Because I like the Thinblade? What's Shadow Blade, though, that sounds cool.

Dex to damage with Shadow Hand weapons. Namely Spiked Chain, so you can do limited Battlefield Control and still call yourself a tank.


Yes, except I could ultimately have 1d8 13-20/x3 (+1 to the critical threat range of weapons with Greater Weapon Focus, +1 to critical hit multiplier of weapons with Greater Weapon Specialization, and alternate requirements for each so that I can take them), with a +2 to confirm rolls (+6 if I got Power Critical), on a TWF build. And while that still might be underpowered, I like crit-focused characters. D&D 3.5 has an irritating lack of support for finesse fighters, but I'm going to try my darnedest to make one.

DnD has a lot of support for Finesse characters, but the majority of it is Rogue-based. Its harder to get with non-rogues, at least unless you can find an alternative source for Sneak Attack dice (Blackguard has it, but the entry requirements are tough for everyone).



Critical hits are not her only ability, don't worry. It's a large facet of the character, but not everything.

That is actually what I'm talking about. Don't focus more than 2 feats, and maybe a class feature, on critical hits. Any more than that is going to bite into your build too much. You can actually do a lot better merely by pumping your damage and having a Keen weapon with a 18-20 base crit ratio.

13-20 is still 35% Yes, 65% No. In other words, you still aren't getting the ability to function half of the time. Just focus on pumping your base damage, and the critical hit gets augmented naturally as a side-effect.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-11, 07:06 PM
Dex to damage with Shadow Hand weapons. Namely Spiked Chain, so you can do limited Battlefield Control and still call yourself a tank.
Yeah, not using a Spiked Chain. I know well that it's a good build, but I'm not.


DnD has a lot of support for Finesse characters, but the majority of it is Rogue-based. Its harder to get with non-rogues, at least unless you can find an alternative source for Sneak Attack dice (Blackguard has it, but the entry requirements are tough for everyone).
Sorry, you are correct. But that's not what I'm going for with this character.


That is actually what I'm talking about. Don't focus more than 2 feats, and maybe a class feature, on critical hits. Any more than that is going to bite into your build too much. You can actually do a lot better merely by pumping your damage and having a Keen weapon with a 18-20 base crit ratio.
*shrug* I'm sure you're right. Doesn't change what I'm doing.


13-20 is still 35% Yes, 65% No. In other words, you still aren't getting the ability to function half of the time. Just focus on pumping your base damage, and the critical hit gets augmented naturally as a side-effect.
I'd comment that I do not fail to function when I'm not getting critical hits. The character still has plenty to do without them. They're bonus, even if I've put a fair amount into them.


For DEX to Damage without Champion of CL you could try the Feat Shadow Blade from ToB.

Technically Shadow Blade can only be used with dagger, sai, siangham, short sword, spiked chain, or unarmed strike. However you could reasobably argue that an elven lightblade (18-20 crit, assuming that was important) could be treated as a short sword for the purpose of Shadow Hand.

However you would require the Martial Stance and Martial Study feats to qualify for Shadow Blade without taking a level of Swordsage.
Hmm. Worth asking, I suppose.

Interestingly, the online excerpt from Tome of Battle (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=3) lists Shadow Blade as requireing one Shadow Hand maneuver, not stance, despite what the book itself says.

Assuming I get the OK on this, suggestions on a Maneuver and Stance to take? Assume I'd get Martial Study at 11 (Fighter 1) and Martial Stance at 12 (Fighter 2), so a <3rd level maneuver and a <4th level stance. She's TWF, crit-focused, and has the Knight's code (which makes sneaking up on people, using invisibility, etc, not entirely kosher).

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-11, 07:11 PM
Hmm. Worth asking, I suppose.

Interestingly, the online excerpt from Tome of Battle (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=3) lists Shadow Blade as requireing one Shadow Hand maneuver, not stance, despite what the book itself says.

Assuming I get the OK on this, suggestions on a Maneuver and Stance to take? Assume I'd get Martial Study at 11 (Fighter 1) and Martial Stance at 12 (Fighter 2), so a <3rd level maneuver and a <4th level stance. She's TWF, crit-focused, and has the Knight's code (which makes sneaking up on people, using invisibility, etc, not entirely kosher).

You need to be in a Shadow Hand stance to benefit from the feat, but only need one Shadow Hand maneuver to take it.


Child of Shadows is probably the best stance for you. Concealment in any round that you move 10 or more feet. Completely useless unless you charge/move, but when you do you get 20% concealment for a round. Useful for a PC, and doesn't violate the (I assume PH2) Knight's code.

Shadow Jaunt would be the best maneuver for you. 1/encounter 50ft teleportation is incredibly useful for any tank, be it a Panic Button or a method of closing the distance faster than you can normally run.

Edit: Violating the PH2 Knight's code only makes you lose a daily use of Knight's Challenge, IIRC. If your Charisma is good, you can afford to use Invisibility once per encounter. You couldn't get the maneuver that turns you invisible anyway without dipping Swordsage, but you could at least use it every now and again.

Salvonus
2009-09-11, 07:28 PM
Just on the Elf thing - according to RotW, Elves become perfect, beautiful, and fully-grown by age 20-ish, and could theoretically start their adventuring around then. Thing is, Elves are exceptionally lazy and like to piss around for an entire human lifespan, just because they can.

Y'know, I like Elves, but the D&D manifestation is a bit silly.

Ironically, despite the whole "Elves are perfect and beautiful" thing, most pictures of 3.5e Elves makes them look quite laughable (and, arguably, kinda hideous)...

DragoonWraith
2009-09-11, 07:28 PM
You need to be in a Shadow Hand stance to benefit from the feat, but only need one Shadow Hand maneuver to take it.
I see you are right. OK then.


Child of Shadows is probably the best stance for you. Concealment in any round that you move 10 or more feet. Completely useless unless you charge/move, but when you do you get 20% concealment for a round. Useful for a PC, and doesn't violate the (I assume PH2) Knight's code.
I'm glad you mentioned that, cuz I saw that one and dismissed it as incompatible with the Knight. I'll have to reread how Concealment works.

My DM would definitely require some kind of explanation of why my honorable knight has taken to the shadows, but I'm sure I can work that in. She's already very "I'm not like other Knights".


Shadow Jaunt would be the best maneuver for you. 1/encounter 50ft teleportation is incredibly useful for any tank, be it a Panic Button or a method of closing the distance faster than you can normally run.
Yeah, saw that, suspected it would be the best choice.


Edit: Violating the PH2 Knight's code only makes you lose a daily use of Knight's Challenge, IIRC. If your Charisma is good, you can afford to use Invisibility once per encounter. You couldn't get the maneuver that turns you invisible anyway without dipping Swordsage, but you could at least use it every now and again.
Have 16 Charisma, so 5/2+3=5/day Knight's Challenge. I had forgotten that you only take the penalty if you're out of Challenges for the day. So you're right, that's not a huge loss. Though the entire point of being Knight is to use Test of Mettle a lot.

Basically, the character's main schtick is to draw a lot of fire. She's got pretty high AC, decent (though not as high as I'd like) HP, she's got Test of Mettle, and she can parry and counter-attack a lot thanks to dualist. The critical hit thing is just a bonus. Even if I never get one, my damage never adds up to anything, if I've absorbed a lot of hits for my team, I'll have done my job.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-11, 07:45 PM
I see you are right. OK then.


I'm glad you mentioned that, cuz I saw that one and dismissed it as incompatible with the Knight. I'll have to reread how Concealment works.

My DM would definitely require some kind of explanation of why my honorable knight has taken to the shadows, but I'm sure I can work that in. She's already very "I'm not like other Knights".

"How else am I gonna get my character adjacent to anything with a melee reach and a grapple check worth sneezing at?"


Have 16 Charisma, so 5/2+3=5/day Knight's Challenge. I had forgotten that you only take the penalty if you're out of Challenges for the day. So you're right, that's not a huge loss. Though the entire point of being Knight is to use Test of Mettle a lot.

Multiclassing and Test of Mettle isn't that good. IIRC, the ability is based on class level, not character level. If it is character level, feel free to multiclass as needed. If not, try to get feats from something like a Legacy Item, or re-purpose some of the Crit-oriented feats and Weapon Focus tree to those feats.

Exception: Gestalt. If one half of your build is Knight, multiclassing won't hurt your save DC.


Basically, the character's main schtick is to draw a lot of fire. She's got pretty high AC, decent (though not as high as I'd like) HP, she's got Test of Mettle, and she can parry and counter-attack a lot thanks to dualist. The critical hit thing is just a bonus. Even if I never get one, my damage never adds up to anything, if I've absorbed a lot of hits for my team, I'll have done my job.

Then go ahead and drop the Critical focus parts and stick with ones that allow you to bypass hindrances like difficult terrain, the Dying condition (Shape Soulmeld: Rage Claws for Diehard that doesn't suck), and other abilities.

Roog
2009-09-11, 07:55 PM
Interestingly, the online excerpt from Tome of Battle (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=3) lists Shadow Blade as requireing one Shadow Hand maneuver, not stance, despite what the book itself says.

Assuming I get the OK on this, suggestions on a Maneuver and Stance to take? Assume I'd get Martial Study at 11 (Fighter 1) and Martial Stance at 12 (Fighter 2), so a <3rd level maneuver and a <4th level stance. She's TWF, crit-focused, and has the Knight's code (which makes sneaking up on people, using invisibility, etc, not entirely kosher).

Level 12 gives IL 6, which only gives a level 1-3 (not 4) stance.

Possible Stances:
ASSASSIN’S STANCE - 2d6 sneak attack
CHILD OF SHADOW - concelament (if character moves 10'+ each round)
DANCE OF THE SPIDER - 20' climb speed (requires a free hand)
ISLAND OF BLADES - you do not need to be opposite an ally to flank

Possible (Usefull) Maneuvers:
SHADOW JAUNT - 50' LoS teleport as standard action

Taking Swordsage 1 rather that Fighter 1+2 would also give you the prerequisites for Shadow Blade in one level rather than two.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-11, 08:23 PM
"How else am I gonna get my character adjacent to anything with a melee reach and a grapple check worth sneezing at?"
Like I said, I don't think there's a balance issue there. There may be a "I don't want to deal with ToB" issue (DM wants to keep things simple, so having a bunch of different abilities makes his life harder), and there will definitely be a fluff issue. The DM's cool, so I'm sure I could write something in explaining how/why she trained that way, but I was just commenting that it would be necessary.

Which is fine. I enjoy making fluff and mechanics meet in a character for awesome.


Multiclassing and Test of Mettle isn't that good. IIRC, the ability is based on class level, not character level. If it is character level, feel free to multiclass as needed. If not, try to get feats from something like a Legacy Item, or re-purpose some of the Crit-oriented feats and Weapon Focus tree to those feats.
Hmm. That... is a very good point. I feel kind of dumb about that. I'll have to talk to my DM about that.


Exception: Gestalt. If one half of your build is Knight, multiclassing won't hurt your save DC.
Yeah, sadly not.


Then go ahead and drop the Critical focus parts and stick with ones that allow you to bypass hindrances like difficult terrain, the Dying condition (Shape Soulmeld: Rage Claws for Diehard that doesn't suck), and other abilities.
Again, this is good advice... that I'm probably going to ignore.

Part of this is because I'm testing my homebrew. One of the things it gives you is the crit-boosting bonuses on the weapon focus line. I want to playtest that is a real campaign. So I'm taking those feats.


Level 12 gives IL 6, which only gives a level 1-3 (not 4) stance.
Whoo, I fail at basic math. Or, rather, I forgot to divide IL by 2. OK, you're right. I blame the tequila.


Possible Stances:
ASSASSINíS STANCE - 2d6 sneak attack
CHILD OF SHADOW - concelament (if character moves 10'+ each round)
DANCE OF THE SPIDER - 20' climb speed (requires a free hand)
ISLAND OF BLADES - you do not need to be opposite an ally to flank

Possible (Usefull) Maneuvers:
SHADOW JAUNT - 50' LoS teleport as standard action

Taking Swordsage 1 rather that Fighter 1+2 would also give you the prerequisites for Shadow Blade in one level rather than two.
Yup, considering it. If I get OK from my DM, probably will.

OK, thanks!

Darrin
2009-09-11, 10:35 PM
Edit: Violating the PH2 Knight's code only makes you lose a daily use of Knight's Challenge, IIRC. If your Charisma is good, you can afford to use Invisibility once per encounter. You couldn't get the maneuver that turns you invisible anyway without dipping Swordsage, but you could at least use it every now and again.

By RAW, being visible is not a requirement for Knight's Challenge or Test of Mettle. You can, technically, issue a challenge while invisible. RAI, there's very few DMs that would not throw a heavy book at you if you did so.

Blinking is actually one of the best spell effects to combine with Test of Mettle, particularly with Pierce Magical Concealment (so you don't get a miss chance but your enemies do). This allows you to attack as if you are invisible (triggering sneak/sudden strike damage if need be) while still being somewhat visible.

As far as is it fair... well, do you strip naked when you issue your challenge? Is a miss chance all that much different from wearing armor or dodging out of the way? Is it your fault your opponent wasn't smart enough to bring a ghost touch weapon?



Multiclassing and Test of Mettle isn't that good. IIRC, the ability is based on class level, not character level. If it is character level, feel free to multiclass as needed. If not, try to get feats from something like a Legacy Item, or re-purpose some of the Crit-oriented feats and Weapon Focus tree to those feats.


If you multiclass out of Knight, you can shore up your Test of Mettle DC a little bit by taking Ability Focus for +2 to the DC, and pick up a Veil of Allure (MIC p. 145, 14000 GP) for another +2. That would compensate for 8 non-Knight levels.