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Myou
2009-09-11, 05:19 AM
You may have noticed my epic feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122765) thread, and this is the thread for my accompanying epic ruleset, which you can download in an excel sheet here;

http://www.sendspace.com/file/r025be

My aim here is to avoid making any big changes to the game and simply provide a framework to let DMs (like me) advance existing play to higher levels in a reasonably balanced way.

The things I'm most unsure about are;
1. The class feature progressions (I just copied them from somewhere, I forget where. They looked good at the time.), which seem pretty awful to me. I was actually somewhat embarassed to post them.
2. The BAB progression. I had been planning on it progressing as normal, but I realised that it would mean that at level 40 either the mid BAB classes can't hit or the high BAB ones can't miss.

So, P.E.A.C.H. away! :smallsmile:

PId6
2009-09-12, 04:44 AM
Gah, just saw that you've posted this already. I'd comment now but I really need to get to sleep before I fall over. I'll read it over tomorrow. :smallwink:

Myou
2009-09-12, 08:20 AM
Gah, just saw that you've posted this already. I'd comment now but I really need to get to sleep before I fall over. I'll read it over tomorrow. :smallwink:

Heh heh, thanks! Night night! :smallsmile:

Mongoose87
2009-09-12, 09:14 AM
I suspect that giving fighters naught but bonus feats, and giving spellcasters free Epic Spell slots will not go over well, nor contribute in any sense to balance.

Myou
2009-09-12, 09:58 AM
I suspect that giving fighters naught but bonus feats, and giving spellcasters free Epic Spell slots will not go over well, nor contribute in any sense to balance.

Free? Spell slots are what casters get. That's how casting works. And you might want to take note that the Epic Spellcasting feat is gone - they're just normal spell slots. Frankly I think objecting to them is silly and I will hear none of it - casters will get level 10+ slots and that really is final. :smalltongue:

I'm certainly not too happy about fighters only getting bonus feats - but what else should they get?

PId6
2009-09-12, 07:05 PM
Okay, first things first: nice formating!

Anyway, the rest look fine, but you're right that the classes need work. Then again, the noncasting classes are crap to begin with, so there's not much you can do there without total revision. Just give some bonus feats, I guess.

Barbarian: Bonus feat every 3 levels (21, 24, 27, etc).

Bard: You should mention about getting 7th+ spells for bard and the other half-casters. You should give a bonus feat every 3 levels (21, 24, 27, etc) as well.

Cleric: Bonus feat every 5 levels (25, 30, 35, etc).

Druid: The bonus stats really don't amount to much considering his HD limit is rising as well. I feel like that should be either strengthened or removed. I also feel like he should get magical beasts or dragons at some point, though that might be beyond the scope of this. Depending on how many class features he's getting, either give him bonus feats every 5 levels or every 7 level.

Fighter: Fine as is. Epic feats are much better now anyway so that at least improves the class a bit. It's a hopeless cause to try to balance this.

Monk: Raise unarmed damage to 4d6 at 22 and another d6 every 2 levels. Mention how size interacts with this. Also advance AC faster, maybe once per 3 levels, and then give some bonus feats like once per 4.

Paladin: NEED MORE SMITE!!! Again, mention potential 5th+ spells you can get like bard, and raise bonus feats to once per 3 levels.

Ranger: As above with spells. Also need bonus feats every 3 levels.

Rogue: Actually fine as is. Special Abilities take the place of bonus feats.

Sorcerer: NEED BONUS FEATS!!! Seriously, why do wizards get all the Nice Things?

Wizard: Meh.

I understand why you're making spellcasting progress after 9th, but it is quite a huge power boost for casters. You should at least limit it so that you don't start advancing past 9th until 21st level (and get rid of the damn slower sorcerer casting) and reduce the spell slots gotten by half.

Myou
2009-09-13, 03:21 AM
Thanks for taking the time to help!

I shall respond in my usual style. :smalltongue:


Okay, first things first: nice formating!

Really? Thanks! :smallsmile:

Anyway, the rest look fine, but you're right that the classes need work. Then again, the noncasting classes are crap to begin with, so there's not much you can do there without total revision. Just give some bonus feats, I guess.

Yeah, this is the problem I had when I tried to think of a way to make the non-casters better. What about somehow powering-up thier abilities rather than giving too many bonus feats?

Gah, I feel overwhelmed by my own crappy design. x_x

Barbarian: Bonus feat every 3 levels (21, 24, 27, etc).

That's a lot of feat reliace - is there nothing else we could give him?

Bard: You should mention about getting 7th+ spells for bard and the other half-casters. You should give a bonus feat every 3 levels (21, 24, 27, etc) as well.

I was thinking that it would be up to DM discretion, but is that a bad idea?

Cleric: Bonus feat every 5 levels (25, 30, 35, etc).

Really? I was thinking that higher level spell slots were enough for a cleric, are they not?

Druid: The bonus stats really don't amount to much considering his HD limit is rising as well. I feel like that should be either strengthened or removed. I also feel like he should get magical beasts or dragons at some point, though that might be beyond the scope of this. Depending on how many class features he's getting, either give him bonus feats every 5 levels or every 7 level.

Well, I don't want to start making Wildshape even more powerful by letting druids turn into dragons. But the flat bouses are kind of lame. xP
I really don't know what to do with druids.

Fighter: Fine as is. Epic feats are much better now anyway so that at least improves the class a bit. It's a hopeless cause to try to balance this.

Maybe they could get some sort of bonuses or something? *Grasping at straws.*

Monk: Raise unarmed damage to 4d6 at 22 and another d6 every 2 levels. Mention how size interacts with this. Also advance AC faster, maybe once per 3 levels, and then give some bonus feats like once per 4.

Hmmm, size.... How should size interact? :smalleek:

Other than that, I think that looks much better.

Paladin: NEED MORE SMITE!!! Again, mention potential 5th+ spells you can get like bard, and raise bonus feats to once per 3 levels.

More smite, done. xD
But that's more feat-reliace than I'm comfortable with, is there anythig else we could do?

Ranger: As above with spells. Also need bonus feats every 3 levels.

Again, is there any other way?

Rogue: Actually fine as is. Special Abilities take the place of bonus feats.

Well, I'm glad that at least one class is ok! :smallsmile:

Sorcerer: NEED BONUS FEATS!!! Seriously, why do wizards get all the Nice Things?

Done. xD

Wizard: Meh.

Is there something wrong with the progression?

I understand why you're making spellcasting progress after 9th, but it is quite a huge power boost for casters. You should at least limit it so that you don't start advancing past 9th until 21st level (and get rid of the damn slower sorcerer casting) and reduce the spell slots gotten by half.

:smalleek:
Is it really impossible to have any semblance of balance without doing that?
Because I really was just so set on that progression.


I'm starting to think that trying to make playable epic rules was a bad idea. Dx

http://www.sendspace.com/file/t6rlox

PId6
2009-09-13, 05:33 AM
The reason you always want to give something rather than nothing is because otherwise there's no reason not to multiclass out or take PrCs rather than regular levels. A cleric without any bonus feats, for example, is just an invitation to get out of the class as soon as possible. If someone actually takes a straight cleric to 20, they deserve to get something in their epic progression.

The thing with bonus feats is that it's the simplest method that makes sense without completely rewriting all of the classes. You can rewrite them completely if you really want to, but I don't see why giving bonus feats is such a bad idea. There are enough feats available that you can have a nice selection without depleting them, and you need some reward for singleclassing. What's so wrong with feat reliance?

For bard, it's not that it's a bad idea, it's that you should at least mention the option. Otherwise people would just assume you can't.

For druid, if nothing else, bonus feats. Once per 5 levels seems fine for casters without other class features.

Actually, for rogues, I forgot that their special abilities can't be used for epic feats. You should allow that. Or, just give them bonus feats and have an epic feat that grants a Special Ability.

For fighter, no, flat bonuses are not the way to fix them. Bonus feats is enough; they're used to it.

For wizard, that's actually a "Meh, it's fine."

Since the epic spell slots are supposed to be just for metamagic, they do get really powerful with so many, especially since you're getting bonus slots as well. Maybe slow the progression at least, and reduce wizard/cleric to 3 max while sorcerers get 4. You should definitely not get 10th level slots before epic though; I feel like that's just going to lead to bad reactions, and epic rulesets really shouldn't affect pre-epic play.


I'm starting to think that trying to make playable epic rules was a bad idea. Dx
The ELH is inherently a bad idea. Just remember that even if you make a thousand different mistakes, you can never screw up quite as bad as that! :smallbiggrin:

Myou
2009-09-13, 08:34 AM
The reason you always want to give something rather than nothing is because otherwise there's no reason not to multiclass out or take PrCs rather than regular levels. A cleric without any bonus feats, for example, is just an invitation to get out of the class as soon as possible. If someone actually takes a straight cleric to 20, they deserve to get something in their epic progression.

Hmm, that does make sense. I guess bonus feats a a wizard will be ok. Although I'm not really happy about too many bonus feats.


The thing with bonus feats is that it's the simplest method that makes sense without completely rewriting all of the classes. You can rewrite them completely if you really want to, but I don't see why giving bonus feats is such a bad idea. There are enough feats available that you can have a nice selection without depleting them, and you need some reward for singleclassing. What's so wrong with feat reliance?

Well the thing is that I want epic feats to be valuable and limited - you only get one every 3 levels normally. And I want players to feel like levels in a particular clas give actual abilities, not just bonus feats that they can get no matter what class they have. :smallfrown:


For bard, it's not that it's a bad idea, it's that you should at least mention the option. Otherwise people would just assume you can't.

Ok! :smallsmile:

I'm starting to think I should give them expanded spell lists rather than copping out with that DM discretion line....
What do you think?


For druid, if nothing else, bonus feats. Once per 5 levels seems fine for casters without other class features.

Ok!


Actually, for rogues, I forgot that their special abilities can't be used for epic feats. You should allow that. Or, just give them bonus feats and have an epic feat that grants a Special Ability.

I think I'll say that the Special Ability can be spent on epic feats. :3


For fighter, no, flat bonuses are not the way to fix them. Bonus feats is enough; they're used to it.

*Sigh.* Yeah, you're right. I'd have to rewrite the whole class. :smallsigh:


For wizard, that's actually a "Meh, it's fine."

Oh, ok, I guess that's good? :3


Since the epic spell slots are supposed to be just for metamagic, they do get really powerful with so many, especially since you're getting bonus slots as well. Maybe slow the progression at least, and reduce wizard/cleric to 3 max while sorcerers get 4. You should definitely not get 10th level slots before epic though; I feel like that's just going to lead to bad reactions, and epic rulesets really shouldn't affect pre-epic play.

Hmmm, what if I make it half speed progression? I hate to do it but I guess you're right about the power.

I really with there was a way to just leave the progression of spells as it is though.


The ELH is inherently a bad idea. Just remember that even if you make a thousand different mistakes, you can never screw up quite as bad as that! :smallbiggrin:

Thanks! ^_^
And thank you for all your help!

I'm really starting to think I need to think up ways to progress class features, to avoid giving out lots of bonus feats....
But then that would be a lot of work, especially to do it with any semlbance of balance.... ><


http://www.sendspace.com/file/vm4ib4

PId6
2009-09-16, 11:25 PM
Sorry I haven't responded in a while, been pretty busy.

Anyway, here's my thoughts on epic spell slot progression:

{table=head]Level|
10th|
11th|
12th|
13th|
14th|
15th|
16th|
17th|
18th|
19th

21|
1|||||||||

22|
2|||||||||

23|
2|
1||||||||

24|
3|
2||||||||

25|
3|
2|
1|||||||

26|
3|
3|
2|||||||

27|
3|
3|
2|
1||||||

28|
3|
3|
3|
2||||||

29|
3|
3|
3|
2|
1|||||

30|
3|
3|
3|
3|
2|||||

31|
3|
3|
3|
3|
2|
1||||

32|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
2||||

33|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
2|
1|||

34|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
2|||

35|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
2|
1||

36|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
2||

37|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
2|
1|

38|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
2|

39|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
2|
1

40|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
2

[/table]

Since you're only using those slots for metamagic, the differences between spontaneous and prepared casters aren't really that important anymore, so they should be able to use the same progression without too many issues. This gets less slots and a slower progression, so it should be more balanced than before.

Myou
2009-09-17, 01:07 PM
Sorry I haven't responded in a while, been pretty busy.

Anyway, here's my thoughts on epic spell slot progression:

{table=head]Level|
10th|
11th|
12th|
13th|
14th|
15th|
16th|
17th|
18th|
19th

21|
1|||||||||

22|
2|||||||||

23|
2|
1||||||||

24|
3|
2||||||||

25|
3|
2|
1|||||||

26|
3|
3|
2|||||||

27|
3|
3|
2|
1||||||

28|
3|
3|
3|
2||||||

29|
3|
3|
3|
2|
1|||||

30|
3|
3|
3|
3|
2|||||

31|
3|
3|
3|
3|
2|
1||||

32|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
2||||

33|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
2|
1|||

34|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
2|||

35|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
2|
1||

36|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
2||

37|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
2|
1|

38|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
2|

39|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
2|
1

40|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
3|
2

[/table]

Since you're only using those slots for metamagic, the differences between spontaneous and prepared casters aren't really that important anymore, so they should be able to use the same progression without too many issues. This gets less slots and a slower progression, so it should be more balanced than before.

That's ok, I appreciate whateer help you can give! :smallsmile:

One thing that interests me here is that you're giving only 1 less spell slot per level, won't that result in casters not actually being much weaker at all?

The progression seems to me to be the same speed as before, but I guess I missed some detail? ^^;

PId6
2009-09-17, 01:26 PM
Slowed in terms of starting at 21st rather than 19th.

I was actually torn between maximum of 2 or maximum of 3, then settled on 3. It's going to take a while before you get that many slots there, so at level 25 for example, you get 6 slots as opposed to 12. The difference gets less pronounced as you get higher in level, but it's still a lot less than before. Still not entirely sure whether it should be 2 or 3, but 3 doesn't seem that overpowering.

Myou
2009-09-17, 02:58 PM
Slowed in terms of starting at 21st rather than 19th.

I was actually torn between maximum of 2 or maximum of 3, then settled on 3. It's going to take a while before you get that many slots there, so at level 25 for example, you get 6 slots as opposed to 12. The difference gets less pronounced as you get higher in level, but it's still a lot less than before. Still not entirely sure whether it should be 2 or 3, but 3 doesn't seem that overpowering.

That does seem fairer, good stuff. ^^

I wonder, assuming I use yor progression does that mean that these rules are ready to play(test)?

PId6
2009-09-17, 04:34 PM
I'm willing if you're willing. Care to DM? :smallbiggrin:

Myou
2009-09-17, 05:33 PM
I'm willing if you're willing. Care to DM? :smallbiggrin:

Well, first I should actually update the tables. I'll do that in the morning. :3

Eleven
2009-09-18, 09:37 AM
Hey!

I like what you are doing here. A good epic rule rewrite is always a good thing. With that in mind, I am reposting an epic spell system from Dicefreaks that meshes (kinda), with what you've got here.

I believe the intention with it was for casters to take the Improved Spell Capacity feat, rather than continuing with spell slots. This is a system for creating epic spells.


1) Take the idea you're trying to implement - say, an Epic Destruction spell - and find a Core spell that best matches the general idea. In this case we use Destruction.

2) Find the base DC for Destruction ala the "behind the curtains" on spell seed DCs. This is developer-specific. So, in this case, Destruction is a 7th level spell. A cleric needs to be 13th-level to cast Destruction and could have as many as 16 ranks in Spellcraft, so that's a base DC of 26 (10 + 16).

3) Adjust this DC by way of the factors in the ELH. Thus, increasing the spell's save DC by +1 would be a +2 to the developmental DC, or something like that. If you wanted to deal an additional amount of energy damage on a passed save, throw in the energy seed (+19 DC) and you're good. That energy damage is now a part of the spell.

4) Keep playing with it. If you want the spell to have a higher range, do so. If you want it to also poison targets, throw in the Poison spell (+17 DC). Etc.

5) Once you're done, divide the DC by 10 and add +7. This is the spell slot the new epic spell requires to be cast.

This has several effects.
a) It chokes the power of epic spellcasting by forcing the caster to have the slots available (via ISC), have the required Int/Wis/Cha, and have not cast that spell slot or memorized something else into it beforehand.

b) It makes epic spells a little more scalar than 20 + ability insofar as DCs go, as well as making it harder to dispel higher-level epic spells.

c) It allows one to metamagic their epic spells normally. For instance, I've made an epic Destruction spell called "Pollock" which affects a 60-ft.-cone area. It's a 13th-level spell, IIRC, and deals 15d8 on a passed save. One could intensify this spell, quicken it, enlarge it, whatever, and it meshes seamlessly with the system as it stands.

Here are some examples...

Cometary Hail
Evocation [Cold, Fire]
Spellcraft DC: 119
Level: 19
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 4,000 ft. + 400 ft./level
Effect: Four 120-ft.-radius spreads, see text
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None or Reflex half; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes

To Develop: 1,071,000 gp; 25 days; 42,840 XP. Seeds: meteor swarm (DC 30), energy (cold) (DC 19). Factor: Increase explosion damage by +14d6 (+28), increase impact damage by +18d6 (+36), increase area by +200% (+8), increase explosion damage die three types (+30), increase impact damage die three types (+30), increase range by +900% (+18). Mitigating Factors: 30d6 backlash damage (-30), burn 5,000 XP (-50).

This spell unleashes terrible destruction in fire and ice. When you cast it, four 2-foot diameter spheres spring forth and streak in straight lines to the spots you select. The meteors leave trails of thick black smoke and sparks of white heat.
If you aim a sphere at a specific creature, you must succeed at a ranged touch attack to hit. Any creature struck by one of these meteors suffers 20d12 points of bludgeoning damage (no save) and receives no saving throw against the sphere's fire and cold damage (see below). If a targeted sphere misses its target, it simply explodes at the nearest corner of the target's space. You may aim more than one meteor at the same target.
Once a sphere reaches its destination, it explodes in a 120-foot-radius spread, dealing 20d12 points of fire damage and 20d12 points of cold damage to each creature in the area. If a creature is in the area of more than one sphere, it must save separately against each. Cold and fire resistance apply to each sphere separately.
Summoning up the power to cast this awesome spell wreaks havoc on the spellcaster's body, dealing 30d6 points of backlash damage.

Myou
2009-09-18, 12:56 PM
Hey!

I like what you are doing here. A good epic rule rewrite is always a good thing. With that in mind, I am reposting an epic spell system from Dicefreaks that meshes (kinda), with what you've got here.

I believe the intention with it was for casters to take the Improved Spell Capacity feat, rather than continuing with spell slots. This is a system for creating epic spells.

Thanks for the info!

Runing casting on feats and spellcraft is sadly just not a good idea, but it's very helpful to see what other people have found works for them. :smallsmile:

Navigator
2009-10-14, 12:25 AM
First, I want to say that giving spellcasters an epic spell level progression is a step in the right direction. I plan on running an epic game soon, and will be implementing something very similar to this with Epic Spellcasting banned.

I have a few concerns, however. I will continue with the assumption that Epic Spellcasting is completely removed, or is replaced by a balanced and fun alternative.

My opinion is that magical characters and non-magical characters can once again level out in epic if Epic Spellcasting is removed. Having played a (casual, if that's possible) caster in epic levels, a large part of my job was to make sure our fighter was able to keep swinging.

Where are the choices?
By removing Epic Spellcasting and Improved Spell Capacity, casters will find themselves with few interesting feats to take in epic levels. I think this has been mentioned, but this can be remedied by providing more interesting meta-magic feats. Myou has done some good work on this problem in his epic feats thread.

What about the fighter?
We are effectively giving epic casters free feats (Improved Spell Capacity) and allowing them to take other more interesting feats. Do casters really need a boost like this? How are we going to compensate for the non-magical characters? Does the removal of Epic Spellcasting already solve this problem?

Gnomo
2009-10-14, 01:42 AM
Hello, I am not trying to take you guys out of your ideas, since you seem really thrilled about this, but as a DM of high level players I also have an opinion on epic rules:

First, they suck big time, they are more imbalanced than a party composed by a Planar Shepperd, an Incantatrix, a Samurai (from CW) and a Healer. Even removing feats like Epic Spellcasting, Multispell and Improved Metamagic completely wrecks the game, giving casters Improved Spell Capacity for free will wreck your game also.

Second, the whole idea that full BAB characters will go insane power attacking everything is not really that bad, only if you allow charging cheese you will see problems, ban the Heedless Charge section of the Shock Trooper feat and you have half the problem solved.

The first error is to think that a 40th level character with a bonus to hit of 70 is somewhat unbalanced, CR 40 enemies have AC around the 80s easily, and characters with poor BAB do not even use their BAB to hit normal AC, they usually attack touch AC which should be in the order of the 30s for regular enemies.

My take on Epic Rules is this:
Epic Rules doesn't exist, Epic feats doesn't exist, Epic skill uses doesn't exist, Epic classes doesn't exist, Epic anything doesn't exist.
Base classes get to 20th level, if you want to go to 21st you take a level on another class (there's no multiclassing experience penalty anyway).
BAB, Skills and Saves works just like you know they work, is not like you are running out of skills to spend skill points, or having a huge to hit bonus is going to break the game.
Spells get to 9th level (like you need more than this), if you can cast 9th level spells you mastered that type of spellcasting... have a cookie... and maybe try a prestige class for nifty features, it's not like you don't have options.

And it works wonders... long story short: the game doesn't break if you continue playing the same game you have been playing all along after 20th level, but it does break if you use Epic Rules and have spellcasters on the table.

Myou
2009-10-16, 03:25 PM
First, I want to say that giving spellcasters an epic spell level progression is a step in the right direction. I plan on running an epic game soon, and will be implementing something very similar to this with Epic Spellcasting banned.

I have a few concerns, however. I will continue with the assumption that Epic Spellcasting is completely removed, or is replaced by a balanced and fun alternative.

My opinion is that magical characters and non-magical characters can once again level out in epic if Epic Spellcasting is removed. Having played a (casual, if that's possible) caster in epic levels, a large part of my job was to make sure our fighter was able to keep swinging.

Where are the choices?
By removing Epic Spellcasting and Improved Spell Capacity, casters will find themselves with few interesting feats to take in epic levels. I think this has been mentioned, but this can be remedied by providing more interesting meta-magic feats. Myou has done some good work on this problem in his epic feats thread.

Uh, actually, this thread is mine too. Thanks though!


What about the fighter?
We are effectively giving epic casters free feats (Improved Spell Capacity) and allowing them to take other more interesting feats. Do casters really need a boost like this? How are we going to compensate for the non-magical characters? Does the removal of Epic Spellcasting already solve this problem?

Well, the fighter is pretty hard to salvage without a rewrite, but with the number of epic feats he'll get, I think he may actually work out pretty well, with help from the casters to buff him.


Hello, I am not trying to take you guys out of your ideas, since you seem really thrilled about this, but as a DM of high level players I also have an opinion on epic rules:

First, they suck big time, they are more imbalanced than a party composed by a Planar Shepperd, an Incantatrix, a Samurai (from CW) and a Healer. Even removing feats like Epic Spellcasting, Multispell and Improved Metamagic completely wrecks the game, giving casters Improved Spell Capacity for free will wreck your game also.

I respectfuly disagree. :smalltongue:


Second, the whole idea that full BAB characters will go insane power attacking everything is not really that bad, only if you allow charging cheese you will see problems, ban the Heedless Charge section of the Shock Trooper feat and you have half the problem solved.

The first error is to think that a 40th level character with a bonus to hit of 70 is somewhat unbalanced, CR 40 enemies have AC around the 80s easily, and characters with poor BAB do not even use their BAB to hit normal AC, they usually attack touch AC which should be in the order of the 30s for regular enemies.

Errr, actually, I didn't change BAB from the WotC rules, and those monsters are their creation too.


My take on Epic Rules is this:
Epic Rules doesn't exist, Epic feats doesn't exist, Epic skill uses doesn't exist, Epic classes doesn't exist, Epic anything doesn't exist.
Base classes get to 20th level, if you want to go to 21st you take a level on another class (there's no multiclassing experience penalty anyway).
BAB, Skills and Saves works just like you know they work, is not like you are running out of skills to spend skill points, or having a huge to hit bonus is going to break the game.
Spells get to 9th level (like you need more than this), if you can cast 9th level spells you mastered that type of spellcasting... have a cookie... and maybe try a prestige class for nifty features, it's not like you don't have options.

And it works wonders... long story short: the game doesn't break if you continue playing the same game you have been playing all along after 20th level, but it does break if you use Epic Rules and have spellcasters on the table.

It may work, but it's boring as hell for a caster. "Congrats, you've mastered magic, now how about becoming a horribly weak gish? Nothing much else you can do!"
It's not for me at any rate. xD