Dealing with a beguiler

[quiet1mi]

I am playing a level 6 beguiler level 4 in a prestige class or a level 10 Beguiler.

I want to be effective yet I do not want to give my DM headaches and turn yet another game into a "DM fiat" vs "my ability to think quickly"

Is there a happy median?

[PId6]

Um, usually, beguilers are that happy medium. They're nicely strong without being too overpowered, and they're predictable enough that it's not too hard to take them into account when designing encounters. Usually, it's better not to multiclass/PrC besides to take a level of Mindbender for the telepathy.

Oh, and for bonus points, play a beguiler beguiler.

[jiriku]

If you want to tone down your beguiler with an effective, but not overpowered, option, consider multi-classing to lightning warrior. It doesn't have nearly as many mechanical advantages, but does offer considerable flavor.

[Akal Saris]

You know your game better than we do - a lot depends on how creative your DM allows you to be with illusion spells, and how easy/useful it is for enchantments such as Charm Monster to affect game play.

Most likely, the beguiler won't upset the campaign at all.

[taltamir]

don't go assuming your character is vastly superior to everyone else and thus you must cripple yourself... optimize it for power, let the DM know of your concerns, and agree that if you are somehow overshadowing the OTHER PLAYERS than you will retcon your character to be weaker. I highly doubt it will be needed though. You are not even playing a cleric.

[PId6]

If you want to tone down your beguiler with an effective, but not overpowered, option, consider multi-classing to lightning warrior. It doesn't have nearly as many mechanical advantages, but does offer considerable flavor.
Nah, that's way too crippling. It's not like you're getting a familiar or anything.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I found an easy way to deal with Beguilers in my game. Dungeon-Crawl with lots of undead. He's still useful (trapmonkey, because rust me, WAY too many traps for someone with Knock to deal with), but not so encounter-winning. And very useful to the party with things like Haste.

[taltamir]

Nah, that's way too crippling. It's not like you're getting a familiar or anything.

I'd say... IF you find you are completely overshadowing the rest of the party... then unlevel your beguiler and THEN take some of those levels... There is no need to use the nuclear option when you are not even at war.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I found an easy way to deal with Beguilers in my game. Dungeon-Crawl with lots of undead. He's still useful (trapmonkey, because rust me, WAY too many traps for someone with Knock to deal with), but not so encounter-winning. And very useful to the party with things like Haste.Beguiler is actually best against undead, because mindless things cannot save against illusions. If you want to give a Beguiler trouble, send them against a caster college with Knight and Gish bodyguards. Will saves+spellcraft=:smallfrown:.

[taltamir]

mindless things, like undead, ALWAYS fail their saving throw (actually cannot take it) against illusions... yet completely immune to enchantment

[PId6]

The problem with beguiler is that two spells can ruin your entire bag of tricks: Mind Blank and True Seeing. Then again, you still have Glitterdust, so all is not lost.

[arguskos]

Beguiler is actually best against undead, because mindless things cannot save against illusions. If you want to give a Beguiler trouble, send them against a caster college with Knight and Gish bodyguards. Will saves+spellcraft=:smallfrown:.
Hey there, spoiling my fun are we? That's cool, that's cool. :smallwink: Also, Knights are pretty awesome against Beguilers. So are Paladins. Actually, a lot of things are.

[Sinfire Titan]

The problem with beguiler is that two spells can ruin your entire bag of tricks: Mind Blank and True Seeing. Then again, you still have Glitterdust, so all is not lost.

I hate breaking bad news to people (I lie like a dog), but the errata for PH2 removed Glitterdust from the Beguiler's spell list. There's no easy way to get it back (aside from Arcane Disciple: Spell domain and using Anyspell).

[arguskos]

I hate breaking bad news to people (I lie like a dog), but the errata for PH2 removed Glitterdust from the Beguiler's spell list. There's no easy way to get it back (aside from Arcane Disciple: Spell domain and using Anyspell).
Wait, really?! Link please, right now! I have a Beguiler in my group, and want to see this errata.

[Keld Denar]

Wait what? Sinfire! SAY IT AIN'T SO!!!

This is a sad day for me...

And yea, a Beguiler in a dungeon crawl is pretty balanced. Let one of those suckers loose with a little imagination, a Glibness spell, and a lot of free time in a big city and he's liable to do anything from starting his own religion to staging the assassination of an important figure to unbalancing the nations economy to taking over a noble house to...well, anything you can think of. Seriously, even with huge penalties, its not hard to get bluff checks so high than nothing short of DM Fiat can keep things settled...

[Ganurath]

The problem with beguiler is that two spells can ruin your entire bag of tricks: Mind Blank and True Seeing. Then again, you still have Glitterdust Dispel Magic, so all is not lost.Fixed for errata. Between Cloaked Casting granting free Spell Penetration and the need of Dispel Magic to overcome Beguiler Busters, would Arcane Mastery be a viable option for a Beguiler?

[Sinfire Titan]

Wait, really?! Link please, right now! I have a Beguiler in my group, and want to see this errata.

My bad, only Grease was removed...

[arguskos]

Still, I do wish to see this errata. Where can I find it?

[kjones]

Beguilers also get Solid Fog, IIRC.

[Sinfire Titan]

Still, I do wish to see this errata. Where can I find it?

Google Player's Handbook 2 Errata. First link goes to WotC's errata page.

[arguskos]

Google Player's Handbook 2 Errata. First link goes to WotC's errata page.
So, that's where I can find all those erratas! Thanks. :smallsmile:

[PId6]

Fixed for errata. Between Cloaked Casting granting free Spell Penetration and the need of Dispel Magic to overcome Beguiler Busters, would Arcane Mastery be a viable option for a Beguiler?
Could work, actually, though it depends on whether they're boosting the CL on their daily buffs. Against normal enemies though, that would be a viable if spell-intensive tactic.

[Flickerdart]

I found an easy way to deal with Beguilers in my game. Dungeon-Crawl with lots of undead. He's still useful (trapmonkey, because rust me, WAY too many traps for someone with Knock to deal with), but not so encounter-winning. And very useful to the party with things like Haste.
Knock doesn't do anything to traps. Perhaps you are thinking of a different spell (the Cleric 2 spell Find Traps?).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Knock doesn't do anything to traps. Perhaps you are thinking of a different spell (the Cleric 2 spell Find Traps?).

Actually, I was thinking of Locks, but for Traps, Summon Monster I can be used much of the time.

Of course, last time that happened, the party found out that while the trigger was on the door, the effect was to cause the roof to collapse 30' back from the door. It was designed as a 'feeder' trap, but it had the effect of squishing half the party.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Actually, I was thinking of Locks, but for Traps, Summon Monster I can be used much of the time.

Of course, last time that happened, the party found out that while the trigger was on the door, the effect was to cause the roof to collapse 30' back from the door. It was designed as a 'feeder' trap, but it had the effect of squishing half the party.You realize, of course, that the Beguiler has both Trapfinding and more skill points than the Rogue.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You realize, of course, that the Beguiler has both Trapfinding and more skill points than the Rogue.

Hence why I said the Beguiler was still useful, but not brokenly overpowering. His character had a role: trapmonkey and lockpicker. Something a caster would not have been able to match in my dungeon.

My goal is not to make the beguiler useless, merely back down on par with the rest of the group.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Hence why I said the Beguiler was still useful, but not brokenly overpowering. His character had a role: trapmonkey and lockpicker. Something a caster would not have been able to match in my dungeon.

My goal is not to make the beguiler useless, merely back down on par with the rest of the group.Assuming decent optimization on their parts, it will be. The Beguiler is a class with out-of-combat utility(spells+skills), useful in almost all combats(buff/control if nothing else), and it doesn't step on anyone's toes(Wizard has 4 other schools, Rogue has SA). It's one of the best-balanced things produced by WotC.

[quiet1mi]

The problem is not a mechanical one, It is balancing encounters because they never happen...

As a beguiler I have Globe of invisibility, Silence, Ghost sound, and Silent Spell. With Swift Concentration, I could easily conceal the movements of 8 other people. Major Image also includes scent and vibrations for those with blind-Sight and scent...

When it comes to social situation, the games becomes completely unbalanced as I (Player) am very hard to trip up with my lies and beguiling...

Recently the DM has just put us on a time table so I cannot magically become Overlord Elected Official of a town with all the skills/magic available to me. Usually I just extort equipment and gold from NPcs or make things easier for the party by establishing contacts.

I like the Idea of 10 levels of Beguiler but in his background he was a guerrilla fighter, are there any feats that give me bonuses to illusion, Sniping or using a crossbow? His Damage output does not need to be high, as his job as a guerrilla was to increase the expenditure of resources that the enemy had to use for their troops...

Are there any rules for called shot? I know that there are rules for losing an eye... I imagine it would just be the size of the area that you want to hit, (eye being diminutive or tiny) The dexterity bonus of the target (can he move out of the way, finally there is the concealment of the area or the armor the target is wearing over the area...

I think he will be using a Heavy Crossbow because he can just spend a turn loading his weapon while hiding... is there a better weapon or enhancements that make Heavy Crossbows better?

[gorfnab]

If you are going to prestige class do so after 6th level but then take 7th level of beguiler one level later to delay advanced learning so you can pick up Shadow Conjuration. Basically go Beguiler 6/ Prestige Class that advances spellcasting 1/ Beguiler 1/ Prestige Class. I'm playing a beguiler in a current campaign and plan to do Beguiler 6/ Mindbender 1/ Beguiler 1/ Spellthief 1/ Unseen Seer 2/ Divine Oracle 4/ Loremaster 5 or just Beguiler 6/ Mindbender 1/ Beguiler X

[PId6]

Weapons... are not the way to do damage with beguiler. You're better off just casting spells, because there is no way you can meaningfully deal damage with a bow past level 2. There are no rules for Called Shot in 3.5 that I'm aware of, certainly none in core.

As for balance, if the DM has a consistent world, then there should be established ways to deal with those like you. You couldn't be the only one who's ever tried to magic yourself to be Overlord, after all, so governments should have some means of protection, such as their own wizards, magical wards, magic items, or clerics with high Will saves and Sense Motive. The same should be able to be said of rich merchants and nobles. Unless of course, you're the highest level character within a 100 mile radius, in which case you deserve to rule states.

As for combat situations, True Seeing. Invisibility Purge. See Invisibility. Mindsight. Tremorsense. And Images can't actually be used to cover up your presence; they only create new ones.

[taltamir]

how is having an <incompatible creature type> crawl a suitable way to controll a character's power?

Lets RP it for a second:
BG: Guys, I am sorry, I am a total dead weight against those undead, and frankly, I am just risking my life for nothing... I am gonna go back to town and find something appropriate to my skills to do, I recommend you get a cleric of palor to replace me...
PT: yea, we didn't want to be callous, but you are just sitting in the back, hoping not to die, and taking a cut of the loot. Lets head back to town together then split up...

A character going on an incompatible dungeon crawl is like a brain surgeon seeking employment in construction. Or an ex NFL player trying coach an NBA team. They are just completely wasting their time and there is practically no reason, in character, for them to do so.

[arguskos]

It can be a test of skill, to see if you can use your abilities against things they are ineffective against, to prevail anyways. Beguilers are powerful and smart, they can make things happen and be plenty tricky enough to work through a dungeon with undead and constructs in it.

Also, where did you parse out "immune creature types" from "undead autofail the saves against illusions"? :smalltongue:

[deuxhero]

At the "mindless" bit?

[arguskos]

At the "mindless" bit?
Not all illusions are mind affecting. :smalltongue:

[taltamir]

It can be a test of skill, to see if you can use your abilities against things they are ineffective against, to prevail anyways. Beguilers are powerful and smart, they can make things happen and be plenty tricky enough to work through a dungeon with undead and constructs in it.

Also, where did you parse out "immune creature types" from "undead autofail the saves against illusions"? :smalltongue:

Well, we established that undead are NOT immune, but he originally INTENDED them to be an immune creature type as a means of control... this means either:
1. he will houserule they are immune
2. he will change it to a creature that IS immune.

Rule 0. If the DM explicitly says he chose a certain creature to be immune to the abilities of a certain character, than that creature is immune regardless of what the RAW says. Of course, for fairness that should not be overdone, since the character was originally told the class is OK and its skills have no exceptions, and now he suddenly finds they don't work...
Solution 2 is a better one.

[deuxhero]

Not all illusions are mind affecting. :smalltongue:

Hence why they work. Mindless creatures don't get will saves, but are immune to most will based effects ([Mind Effecting]), Illusions are not ammong their immunities.

[arguskos]

Hence why they work. Mindless creatures don't get will saves, but are immune to most will based effects ([Mind Effecting]), Illusions are not ammong their immunities.
So... you just agreed with my point? Ooookay then, you're rather confusing at the moment. I was asking where taltamir managed to parse out that undead are unaffected by illusions, when in fact, they are not immune to them, meaning they are ALWAYS affected by illusions.

So, unless you are saying that because illusions give will saves, undead ignore them, I think we're on the same page here. :smallconfused::smalltongue:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Undead are not immune to the Beguiler casting Haste on the party. And a Beguiler is still a perfectly functional skillmonkey, which is desperately needed.

It does, however, keep him from AutoWin every encounter, which his Enchantments were doing for him.

[deuxhero]

So... you just agreed with my point? Ooookay then, you're rather confusing at the moment. I was asking where taltamir managed to parse out that undead are unaffected by illusions, when in fact, they are not immune to them, meaning they are ALWAYS affected by illusions.

So, unless you are saying that because illusions give will saves, undead ignore them, I think we're on the same page here. :smallconfused::smalltongue:

Ok, thought you were asking where he got the idea that it was such.

[arguskos]

Ok, thought you were asking where he got the idea that it was such.
Nah, 'sall good. :smallcool:

[Gnaeus]

If you are a little bit too strong, take an item creation feat at 3rd or 6th level. Use it to make items for your fellow party members until balance is restored. This is the easiest way to nerf yourself, while getting credit as a team player.

[taltamir]

If you are a little bit too strong, take an item creation feat at 3rd or 6th level. Use it to make items for your fellow party members until balance is restored. This is the easiest way to nerf yourself, while getting credit as a team player.

what a good idea... i learned something today.

[Frosty]

But...as a Beguiler, there's a lot of things you can't make cuz you lack the spells for it!

[lsfreak]

But...as a Beguiler, there's a lot of things you can't make cuz you lack the spells for it!

Well, they do have UMD and can buy scrolls. Certainly more annoying than as a wizard, but still possible.

[taltamir]

But...as a Beguiler, there's a lot of things you can't make cuz you lack the spells for it!

you mean item crafting? if so... artificer party member.

[Gnaeus]

But...as a Beguiler, there's a lot of things you can't make cuz you lack the spells for it!

Sure, but you probably have another spellcaster in the party. You provide the feat and they provide the spell.

And just because there are lots of things you can't make, there are also lots of things you CAN. Bracers of Armor for the monk. Hats of disguise. Slippers of Spider Climb. CLOAKS OF DISPLACEMENT. Ring of invisibility. Ring of Free Action. Boots or weapons of Speed. Armor of shadow or silent moves. Spell storing weapons. Dust of Appearance or Disappearance. Those are just some of the useful items in the DMG that a beguiler can make without help. Magic Item compendium has a bunch more. If you make all that for your fighter, and they still suck, the problem is not in YOUR build, and no one will blame you,

[quiet1mi]

so.. I think I will just go Beguiler 10...

As for feats,

Spell focus (Enchanment)
Greater Spell focus (Enchanment)
Eschew Materials
Darkstalker

[Burley]

So... you just agreed with my point? Ooookay then, you're rather confusing at the moment. I was asking where taltamir managed to parse out that undead are unaffected by illusions, when in fact, they are not immune to them, meaning they are ALWAYS affected by illusions.

So, unless you are saying that because illusions give will saves, undead ignore them, I think we're on the same page here. :smallconfused::smalltongue:

Wait. I disagree!
Undead have Good Will saves, according to this. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Undead_Type)

Actually, there was nothing I found that is mindless and doesn't have will saves. Undead still get to make will saves, unless there is something that I'm missing, or I just don't understand...

[Gnaeus]

He just didn't explain fully.

Most illusions require will saves when you INTERACT with them, or actively attempt to see through them.

If I make an illusion of a mundane wall cutting off half of a room, A gnoll will immediately realize that it wasn't there before. If he can't just go around it, he will walk up to it, touch it. Poof, no wall.

A zombie, which does have a will save, but is mindless, will not interact with the wall unless told to. Failing to see a living target, he will stand in his corner and dream of brains. No interaction = no saving throw.

[Leewei]

Beguilers do okay against undead if you exercise the right tactics.

Against the various incorporeal undead, use swift etherealness and solid fog. Since swift etherealness lasts until the end of your target's next round, blast them with glitterdust as well. Lacking more than 5' mobility for the next few rounds will make the encounter considerably easier.

Against corporeal undead, use solid fog plus legion of sentinels. Any attempt by the undead to move through the fog provokes AoOs galore. Remember, no 5' step through solid fog.

Undead are affected normally by slow. Killing mobility and iterative attacks is a very handy tactic. Combine this with glitterdust and opponents are badly disadvantaged (blind creatures move at half speed and are hugely penalized to attacks).

Against undead using gaze attacks or similar special attacks (Bodaks, Mummies), use obscuring mist and instruct your teammates to divert their gazes. Everyone will get a 20% miss chance, however the PCs have a 50% chance to ignore the gaze attack, plus a second chance of 20% to be unaffected due to concealment.

Greater invisibility is a huge buff. Opponents lose their dexterity bonus to AC and you get +4 to attack rolls and they get a 50% chance to negate a hit against you. Cast it on an ally with Power Attack and Cleave. It turns Fighters and Barbarians into murder machines. Rogues do very well with this, especially if they have some cheese to allow them to Sneak Attack undead.

Are undead attacking you? Greater mirror image is an immediate action.

[Leewei]

Also, drop Eschew Material and get Unsettling Enchantment instead. Your Enchantment spells that permit saving throws (pretty much all of them) will penalize enemy attacks and AC by 2 points for a round each time they roll, whether or not they succeed. Spells like hesitate and inevitable defeat permit saves each round. With a high enough DC, these spells become even more effective debuffs.

[Thurbane]

I've DM'd for a Beguiler, and currently have one in my party. I've yet to encounter a situation where he had nothing to do...

Against illusion/enchantment immune creatures, you still have Glitterdust, Halt, Legion of Sentinels, Slow & Solid Fog...not to mention buffs for the party like Blur, Displacement & Haste.