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View Full Version : [D&D 3.5] The Crossbow Slinger (P.E.A.C.H.)



Cieyrin
2009-09-16, 03:47 PM
Alrighties, this is something I brewed up a couple years back that I came back to recently for submission in the Footsteps e-zine. The version presented here is a revised version, as it had some notable flaws that I think I quashed, some inspired by this old PRC (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10755). So, with no further ado, the Crossbow Slinger!

The Crossbow Slinger
Hit Die: d8


Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Special


1st

+1

+2

+2

+0
Close Combat Shot, Crossbow Mastery +1, Dual Crossbow (Two-Weapon Fighting)


2nd

+2

+3

+3

+0
Dual Crossbow (Lesser Crossbow Wielding), Uncanny Reload


3rd

+3

+3

+3

+1
Crossbow Mastery +2, Dual Crossbow (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting)


4th

+4

+4

+4

+1
Dual Crossbow (Greater Crossbow Wielding), Improved Uncanny Reload


5th

+5

+4

+4

+1
Barrage, Crossbow Mastery +3, Dual Crossbow (Greater Two-Weapon Fighting)



Crossbow slingers are masters of crossbows, especially repeating crossbows, as they lay a devastating layer of bolts upon their hapless foes. At home in both close and ranged combat, they let the click of their weapons speak for them on the battlefields they call home.

Becoming a Crossbow Slinger
Becoming a crossbow slinger requires a singular devotion to what wielding one of these weapons means, to know the internal mechanisms of these extensions of themselves. Just as often snipers as warriors of the battlefield, they must know well the art of sniping as well as that of the close range attacker. The fastest way into the class is as a fighter, though it is not unknown for rangers and rogues to take particular interest in the artistry that is incarnate in mastering these weapons.

Entry Requirements:
Base Attack Bonus: +6
Skills: Craft (Weaponsmithing) 9 ranks, Hide 4 ranks, Spot 4 ranks
Feats: Precise Shot, Quick Draw, Rapid Shot

Class Skills
The Crossbow slingerís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str) and Tumble (Dex).
Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Class Features:
As you advance in level, you gain prowess with your chosen weapons, learning everything about your chosen weapons, gaining precision and focus in mastery.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Crossbow slingers gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor. He does, however, gains weapon familiarity with all crossbows, which includes heavy crossbows, light crossbows, repeating crossbows, hand crossbows, great crossbows (Races of Stone, page 153) and spring-loaded gauntlets (Arms and Equipment Guide, page 8).

Close Combat Shot (Ex): At 1st level, a crossbow slinger can attack with a crossbow while in a threatened square and not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Crossbow Mastery (Ex): A crossbow slinger gains a competence bonus on his attack roll when using crossbows he is proficient with. This bonus starts out at +1 at 1st level and increase by +1 every two levels thereafter.

Dual Crossbow (Ex): Also at 1st level, a crossbow slinger is treated as having the Two-Weapon Fighting feat when only wielding crossbows, even if he does not meet the prerequisites for that feat. Also, he may use Rapid Shot with both crossbows when using this ability at the same penalty.

At 2nd level, as a crossbow slinger gets used to the weight of using a crossbow in one hand, he may reduce the one-handed penalty by 2, but not below 0, for any crossbow he is proficient in. This penalty is further reduced at 4th level by another 2, for a total reduction of the one-handed penalty by 4.

At 3rd level, a crossbow slinger is treated as having the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat when wielding only crossbows, even if he does not meet the prerequisites for that feat.

At 5th level, a crossbow slinger is treated as having the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting feat when wielding only crossbows, even if he does not meet the prerequisites for that feat.

Uncanny Reload (Ex): At 2nd level, a crossbow slinger can reload a crossbow he is proficient with with only one hand, meaning he can load and fire even if he has a crossbow in each hand. This includes the mechanism of the repeating crossbow but not the reloading of new clips.

The crossbow slinger also does not provoke an attack of opportunity while reloading.

Improved Uncanny Reload (Ex): A 4th level, through extensive practice, a crossbow slinger increases the speed of his reloading. Crossbows that he has proficiency in take one less action type to reload, full-round action to move action to free action. This stacks with Rapid Reload and the Quick Loading weapon property (MIC pg 41).

This also applies to reloading repeating crossbow clips, so it only takes a move action to reload a new clip for the crossbow slinger.

Barrage (Ex): At 5th level, the crossbow slinger reaches the pinnacle of his art and can let loose a storm of bolts upon his targets. Once per encounter, a crossbow slinger can double the number of attacks he makes with crossbows in a round as part of a full attack. These attacks can only target creatures within the first range increment.

So, thoughts? Too many abilities for a 5 level PRC? Should Crossbow Mastery be dropped from the class altogether? Let the P.E.A.C.H.ing begin!:smallbiggrin:

Spiryt
2009-09-16, 03:52 PM
Dunno, I must say that idea of "baraging" crossbowman surprised me.

The mind image of guy shooting from two crossbows at the same times with such frequency is hard to make, to be fair.

Cieyrin
2009-09-16, 04:47 PM
Dunno, I must say that idea of "baraging" crossbowman surprised me.

The mind image of guy shooting from two crossbows at the same times with such frequency is hard to make, to be fair.

Insert instead the mental image of a gunslinger with two pistols. It's a pre-gun equivalent, which I was going for. Also consider that a Rapid Reloading Light Crossbower can fire at bow rates already and transpose a crossbow to both hands for further effect and it's not so extreme. Considering this is the slinger's one trick, it should be good, as it's fairly unviable otherwise without resorting to magics like Ghostly Reload and the enchantment that gives crossbows an extradimensional reservoir for their bolts that reloads as well.

The Neoclassic
2009-09-16, 11:42 PM
I can finally help you with your homebrew instead of vice versa. YAY! :smallbiggrin:

For the entry requirements, I think that adding proficiency (familiarity?) with repeating crossbow would be ideal. I also admit that the first thing that came to mind when I saw "repeating crossbow" and "Hide [skill]" was a tower shield with a small slit in it out of which to shoot arrows. :smalltongue:

No Profession, Jump, Balance, Tumble, or Bluff? I don't think any are necessary, but I could also argue a decent case for the inclusion of each; if you like a short skill list though, what you have is just fine.

Now, for Dual Crossbow, is this something which works with light and heavy crossbows? I thought one could only use hand crossbows with one hand; if this is being changed due to their training, a bit more explanation would be handy.

Heck, I like Crossbow Mastery. It's for a very specific sort of weapon, and an extra +3 competence for a certain set of weapons at the end of five levels of prestige class isn't unbalancing.

Overall, I'd say this is a solid class. It is very focused on one weapon, and potentially slightly bland BUT focus is good and I feel this allows one to fluff it any number of ways for their setting or character. Out of curiousity, did you envision this class as primarily staying put in combat (finding a defensible location and sort of sniping at enemies) or tumbling and running about to get the best possible shots. I see potential for either, frankly.

Excellent job; I would love to read more of your homebrew, so keep posting it!

Mongoose87
2009-09-17, 12:02 AM
I have a mental image of a gnome firing a crossbow with each hand, throwing both into the air long enough to grab bolts, and using the downward momentum of the bows to somehow set the strings.

DracoDei
2009-09-17, 02:01 PM
magics like Ghostly Reload and the enchantment that gives crossbows an extradimensional reservoir for their bolts that reloads as well.
Where are those found? Because when I made my "Society Members (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6018203&postcount=5)" (the full name is much much longer) PrC, I used repeater crossbows with an "autococker" enchantment and created my own rules for extra-dimensional magazines...

Cieyrin
2009-09-18, 02:40 PM
I can finally help you with your homebrew instead of vice versa. YAY! :smallbiggrin:

It is a nice change, isn't it?:smallwink:


For the entry requirements, I think that adding proficiency (familiarity?) with repeating crossbow would be ideal. I also admit that the first thing that came to mind when I saw "repeating crossbow" and "Hide [skill]" was a tower shield with a small slit in it out of which to shoot arrows. :smalltongue:

Well, on the matter of familiarity, one of the first class features is that I grant familiarity with all crossbows, so if the entering character has proficiency with all simple and martial weapons already (a dip in fighter or some other martial class), they'll have proficiency with all crossbows, including the repeating sorts. While I was inclined to granting proficiency with the repeating ones, not everybody would necessarily want to use one (crazy, I know:smalltongue:)


No Profession, Jump, Balance, Tumble, or Bluff? I don't think any are necessary, but I could also argue a decent case for the inclusion of each; if you like a short skill list though, what you have is just fine.

Well, I don't see a reason why they couldn't have those. I'm actually not sure why I didn't include some of those in the first place, though I'm not sure about Profession and Bluff. They're required to have a number of Craft ranks to get in (tricking out your crossbows to meet your standards and also make them work for Uncanny Reload:smallwink:), which covers the worker type skill. I guess I could see a Crossbow Slinger having Profession(Soldier), though, as well. As for Bluff, I'm not sure that actually works for them very well, as the only use I could see for it is to feint, which is melee only. I could see Intimidate making the list instead, as I'm sure many a person would wet themselves upon seeing the sheer number of bolts being unleashed accurately and efficiently.


Now, for Dual Crossbow, is this something which works with light and heavy crossbows? I thought one could only use hand crossbows with one hand; if this is being changed due to their training, a bit more explanation would be handy.

Most crossbows can be shot one-handed with just proficiency, though only hand crossbows can be so handled without taking an attack penalty. The bigger crossbows give a penalty for such use, which is eventually alleviated by Dual Crossbow at 2nd and 4th (which on the table are called Lesser and Greater Crossbow Wielding, respectively). Should I further divvy up Dual Crossbow with labels is it clear enough as is?


Heck, I like Crossbow Mastery. It's for a very specific sort of weapon, and an extra +3 competence for a certain set of weapons at the end of five levels of prestige class isn't unbalancing.

Whoo, good. I was worried, since for normal bows, you'd have to go through a magic item (Greater (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bracersofArcheryGreater) and Lesser (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bracersofArcheryLesser) Bracers of Archery) to obtain such a bonus, which inconveniently disallows crossbows, which is kinda lame in my book. I also wondered how it balanced with everything else in the class, if it pushed it into the too good category or not. Good to know that it's all good, heh.:smallbiggrin:


Overall, I'd say this is a solid class. It is very focused on one weapon, and potentially slightly bland BUT focus is good and I feel this allows one to fluff it any number of ways for their setting or character. Out of curiousity, did you envision this class as primarily staying put in combat (finding a defensible location and sort of sniping at enemies) or tumbling and running about to get the best possible shots. I see potential for either, frankly.

The class originally had two different focuses, the dual-wielding bit and also a sniping focus which drew some inspiration from Order of the Bow Initiate (psh, inspiration, I directly cut and paced from it). After thinking about it some, I cut that bit out and focused solely on the dual-wielding, for a Volley style archer. Admittedly, this class suffers like other combat characters on being dependent on a full attack, which generally precludes movement for a running and gunning approach that would make this class screams it should be able to do. I can't exactly do a Pounce, since that's melee only, so you'd have to go with a free movement type item or effect to do the same. A weakness of the D&D system, I guess.:smallannoyed:


Excellent job; I would love to read more of your homebrew, so keep posting it!

Will do. Nice to know I already have a fan.:smallbiggrin:
As for other bits of my homebrew, I do have a couple feats and other work scattered through other threads I've posted to. The other thread that's wholly mine was a return of the staff sling in 3.5, which was last seen 1st or 2nd Ed. The scary bit there is the Pathfinder staff sling is almost identical stat-wise, which is a bit unnerving, as there was no mention of it till the Final version came out. @_@

Also:
Where are those found? Because when I made my "Society Members (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6018203&postcount=5)" (the full name is much much longer) PrC, I used repeater crossbows with an "autococker" enchantment and created my own rules for extra-dimensional magazines...

Ghostly Reload is a 1st level Wiz/Sor spell from Races of the Dragon, pg. 113, that reloads an affected crossbow for 1 reload per CL or 2 CLs, depending on the size, maxing at 10 reloads for hand or light crossbows and 5 for heavy crossbows (and probably great crossbows as well, though it's unmentioned). It's nifty while it lasts and I definitely see a business in oils of ghostly reload and crossbows with oil chambers in them for quickly applying it to the crossbow.

The enchantment I mentioned, which I looked up, is Quick Loading, which appeared originally in the Arms and Equipment Guide but I found it in the Magic Item Compendium as a +1 weapon special ability. The extra-dimensional space holds 100 bolts and reloading of the crossbow is a free action for a hand or light crossbow and a move action for heavy crossbows. You can freely select what bolt you want to load from the space, though adding or removing bolts from the space is a move action. Hmm, I should explicitly state with Improved Uncanny Reload that it stacks with Quick Loading...

Cieyrin
2009-09-21, 11:36 AM
So no further thoughts, huh? Just not that interesting or do I just not stand-up to Penny-Dreadful's team of awesome?:smallbiggrin:

Zain
2009-10-04, 05:41 PM
this cool, but i thought that if you had quick draw, and rapid reload(light crossbow) you could pull that off:smallconfused:

i may be wrong thought...

great class anyway, i might try to get this used in a upcoming game:smallbiggrin:

onthetown
2009-10-04, 05:51 PM
I have a rogue that uses a crossbow as her main weapon, this would be perfect for her... Mind if I give it a playtest if my DM allows it?

Sudduth
2009-10-04, 11:03 PM
Seems like this would be a great idea as logn as you're using mini-crossbows. But holding two crossbows at one time is basically impossible. I've had the luck to hold a real crossbow in real life. Things are at least 30 lbs.

http://www.silverblades-suitcase.com/rhino/2009/drow_handcrossbow7.jpg

Mulletmanalive
2009-10-05, 06:50 AM
I personally don't see a particular need for the Crossbow mastery ability. The class is plenty attractive from where i'm sitting as it is.

I never really noticed the bracers of archery thing though. Perhaps you could just give them a first level power that grants them some kind of 'Bow-transparency'

Cieyrin
2009-10-05, 11:13 AM
Huh, lots of new posts after 2 weeks of nothing. I guess I don't mind a little thread necromancy, especially since I'm getting more feedback out of it.:smallbiggrin:


this cool, but i thought that if you had quick draw, and rapid reload(light crossbow) you could pull that off:smallconfused:

The thing with that is you could perform the tricks provided by the PRC with one crossbow, not two. You normally need 2 hands to reload a crossbow, which precludes shooting more than one shot normally. Uncanny Reload alleviates that issue quite nicely, I think.


great class anyway, i might try to get this used in a upcoming game:smallbiggrin:
I have a rogue that uses a crossbow as her main weapon, this would be perfect for her... Mind if I give it a playtest if my DM allows it?

I'd be happy to have some playtest feedback, it'd be appreciated. Glad to see people excited make use of my homebrew.:smallsmile:


Seems like this would be a great idea as logn as you're using mini-crossbows. But holding two crossbows at one time is basically impossible. I've had the luck to hold a real crossbow in real life. Things are at least 30 lbs.

That's a big frickin' crossbow, then, as the crossbows in the PHB top out at 12 pounds for a heavy repeating crossbow. Even the great crossbow from Races of Stone is 14 pounds. What you're describing is around the size of a large great crossbow at 28 pounds, which is Goliath territory.

Anyways, the original Uncanny Reload was made for hand crossbows but I felt that it could feasibly be done with bigger crossbows, considering that two-weapon fighters seem to commonly run around with dwarven waraxes and longswords and warhammers, which are around the 6-8 pound range, which is the same weight as heavy and light crossbows. I suppose it may get a little unreasonable with heavy repeating crossbows, as those are the weight of some polearms, but I think I'll go with the Rule of Cool on this, because it looks bad ass to be using two repeating crossbows at the same time.

The only thing I just realized I missed is that I don't clear up which crossbows are light and which are one-handed, which does matter for normal two-weaponing. I'll just go with normal reload times for 'em and thus hand and light crossbows are light weapons and heavy and great crossbows are one-handed for two-weapon penalties. Thus, if you want to be running and gunning with heavy crossbows, you probably want Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting for that.


I personally don't see a particular need for the Crossbow mastery ability. The class is plenty attractive from where i'm sitting as it is.

I never really noticed the bracers of archery thing though. Perhaps you could just give them a first level power that grants them some kind of 'Bow-transparency'

So you're saying that instead of having Crossbow Mastery, I should let the Crossbow Slinger treat crossbows as normal bows for the purpose of feat and magic item abilities? I suppose I see some merit but could you extrapolate what real benefit that provides? All the bracers provide are proficiency (which I already grant by proxy with weapon familiarity) and then the competence bonuses to hit and damage. I can't think of any other major benefits that could be gained (except maybe a RAW reading of Manyshot, which is silly in my book).

Thanks for the input, I appreciate it! Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.:smallsmile:

Sudduth
2009-10-05, 12:09 PM
I was probably exagerating then. I'm a very small person. And it probably felt about 30lbs when I held it considering that I was around 11 at the time. I just compared it to the weight of my backpack which is 30lbs. It was made out of wood and very heavy. That's basically all I can remember.

Mulletmanalive
2009-10-05, 03:10 PM
So you're saying that instead of having Crossbow Mastery, I should let the Crossbow Slinger treat crossbows as normal bows for the purpose of feat and magic item abilities? I suppose I see some merit but could you extrapolate what real benefit that provides? All the bracers provide are proficiency (which I already grant by proxy with weapon familiarity) and then the competence bonuses to hit and damage. I can't think of any other major benefits that could be gained (except maybe a RAW reading of Manyshot, which is silly in my book).


Strictly, i was merely tossing out a suggestion based on your original comment some posts previously about Crossbow Mastery being in response to the lack of Crossbow enhancing items. I don't have any objection to extra damage, lord knows that ranged weapons could use it, but the bonus to hit seemed unnecessary and merely served to encourage "massively multiple carrier effect weapons," like the DamageMaster3000 [A multishooting +1 Caustic, Flaming, Icy, Keen, Shock, Sonic, Stunning Burst Longbow i once played alongside]

Maybe adding class level to damage, or half class level, full on first round [quickdrawing effectively]?

Cieyrin
2009-10-05, 04:37 PM
Strictly, i was merely tossing out a suggestion based on your original comment some posts previously about Crossbow Mastery being in response to the lack of Crossbow enhancing items. I don't have any objection to extra damage, lord knows that ranged weapons could use it, but the bonus to hit seemed unnecessary and merely served to encourage "massively multiple carrier effect weapons," like the DamageMaster3000 [A multishooting +1 Caustic, Flaming, Icy, Keen, Shock, Sonic, Stunning Burst Longbow i once played alongside]

Maybe adding class level to damage, or half class level, full on first round [quickdrawing effectively]?

Alright, I kinda see where you're going with this. Crossbow Slingers get even more attacks off than a normal Volley Archer does, so I wouldn't necessarily want full class to damage (which you'd get with Knowledge Devotion anyways as an insight bonus). I suppose I could continue the schtick of tricking out your crossbows via Craft(Weaponsmithing) in making the crossbow shots more penetrating and powerful overall...

Anyone else want to chime in on this, either for or against changing what the bonus applies to? Should it apply to both?

Xrkun
2009-10-05, 07:38 PM
You can put Weapon Focus with a crossbow as a prereq, and then add Superior Weapon Focus as a bonus feat, or put them both as bonus feats, and make it possible for using the feats for every crossbow the char uses. And playing with the crossbow mechanism to make it pack more power is quite good imo.

And one more thing, since slinging is about being quicker than your opponent, you can add an Initiative bonus or an Attack bonus against flat-footed opponents.

Cieyrin
2009-10-05, 08:32 PM
You can put Weapon Focus with a crossbow as a prereq, and then add Superior Weapon Focus as a bonus feat, or put them both as bonus feats, and make it possible for using the feats for every crossbow the char uses. And playing with the crossbow mechanism to make it pack more power is quite good imo.

And one more thing, since slinging is about being quicker than your opponent, you can add an Initiative bonus or an Attack bonus against flat-footed opponents.

I'd rather not force people to need Weapon Focus, as it's generally considered not the greatest thing and it kinda locks you to one weapon. If people want it to get themselves access to Crossbow Sniper, I leave that up to them. Crossbow Mastery as it currently stands covers the first part of your post.

As for the second bit, I think the class has enough suggested speed being fully Dex-based for combat and just managing to operate 2 crossbows that I don't need to tack on Init bonuses or make him even more accurate against the Dex-denied target. Plus, there's enough going on as is. I'm seeking interesting, powerful but also balanced for this so DMs don't just say 'HAX!' and not allow it, as how useful is homebrew if no one is allowed to play with it, am I right?:smalltongue:

Ashtagon
2009-10-08, 03:36 AM
Uncanny Reload (Ex): At 2nd level, a crossbow slinger can reload a crossbow he is proficient with with only one hand, meaning he can load and fire even if he has a crossbow in each hand. This includes the mechanism of the repeating crossbow but not the reloading of new clips.

The crossbow slinger also does not provoke an attack of opportunity while reloading.

This should be a supernatural ability. One hand does not give the necessary leverage to reload a crossbow. Yes, I know you can rest it against a surface and hold it steady against your hold and lower body and then reload it with one hand (for the smaller crossbows), but I don't think that's what is intended here.

Cieyrin
2009-10-08, 11:39 AM
This should be a supernatural ability. One hand does not give the necessary leverage to reload a crossbow. Yes, I know you can rest it against a surface and hold it steady against your hold and lower body and then reload it with one hand (for the smaller crossbows), but I don't think that's what is intended here.

Y'think so? Given you can't achieve the ability till 8th level, that seems to me to be a good point for pushing physical possibilities. Improved Evasion is coming along at this point, which is pretty damn superhuman, as well, that I think being able to apply proper leverage (with some mechanical assistance, which seems to be the trend for my reasoning throughout for needing Craft(Weaponsmithing)) with only one hand doesn't seem that out there. Hard work and training does a lot to make the seemingly impossible a distinct possibility.

On a completely different note, I've thought a bit more about what Xrkun was saying and I think that it might be a good plan to adapt the Warblade's Weapon Aptitude ability to crossbows only, thus letting you transfer Rapid Reload, Crossbow Sniper and Weapon Focus between crossbows. This may replace Crossbow Mastery or at least make it appear later on. Thoughts?

Lix Lorn
2010-04-07, 06:05 AM
This is really cool, and i'd like to point out that it's practically impossible to aim with one pistol, let alone two, and if we're letting that slide for coolness then we're sure letting this go. ^_^

Cieyrin
2010-04-07, 02:40 PM
This is really cool, and i'd like to point out that it's practically impossible to aim with one pistol, let alone two, and if we're letting that slide for coolness then we're sure letting this go. ^_^

Hey, Guns Akimbo (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GunsAkimbo) is a TV Trope for a reason. Glad you like it, though, even if you committed Thread Necromancy to do it. :smalltongue:

Ashtagon
2010-04-07, 02:46 PM
My main issue with this class is that it leaves the crossbow functionally identical to a regular bow. Crossbows need some love in the game, but making them into clones of the bow rules-wise doesn't do it for me.

Cieyrin
2010-04-07, 03:33 PM
My main issue with this class is that it leaves the crossbow functionally identical to a regular bow. Crossbows need some love in the game, but making them into clones of the bow rules-wise doesn't do it for me.

Since when can we dual wield longbows? That seems more a function of additional arms to me...

Anyways, the only thing I'm doing here is making crossbows more viable by giving an option that bows can't normally achieve. Bows still have more bonus damage to their name and a different crit range, as well as more bow only feats, so I don't see the big deal of giving the Crossbow a means to be viable at higher levels than 1-5, before iterative attacks really kick in.

Ashtagon
2010-04-07, 03:48 PM
Unless you are fighting giants or other low-AC enemies, the benefits of the dual wielding don't kick in until you've worked your way up that feat tree.

But in terms of rate of fire, this is making crossbows the same as longbows. You've got Rapid Shot in there, which with a light crossbow and the typical +7 bab at 1st level in this class, you've got a rate of fire of 30 rpm (or 60 rpm if dual-wielding). In RL, I've seen tournament-winner archers manage 10 rpm on a good day. Crossbows lose some of their flavour if they get a higher rate of fire than a longbow.

By 20th level, a tricked-out character with this class is hitting 110 rpm with his crossbows (including one round of doubled fire from barrage), while his longbow-wielding cousin is plodding along at a mere 50 rpm (assuming he took Rapid Shot).

For me, the quintessential aspect of a crossbow is "slower, but high-damage". I'd rather see class features that make them do much more damage with each shot than turn a crossbow into a sub-machine gun.

Cieyrin
2010-04-07, 04:01 PM
Unless you are fighting giants or other low-AC enemies, the benefits of the dual wielding don't kick in until you've worked your way up that feat tree.

But in terms of rate of fire, this is making crossbows the same as longbows. You've got Rapid Shot in there, which with a light crossbow and the typical +7 bab at 1st level in this class, you've got a rate of fire of 30 rpm (or 60 rpm if dual-wielding). In RL, I've seen tournament-winner archers manage 10 rpm on a good day. Crossbows lose some of their flavour if they get a higher rate of fire than a longbow.

By 20th level, a tricked-out character with this class is hitting 110 rpm with his crossbows (including one round of doubled fire from barrage), while his longbow-wielding cousin is plodding along at a mere 50 rpm (assuming he took Rapid Shot).

For me, the quintessential aspect of a crossbow is "slower, but high-damage". I'd rather see class features that make them do much more damage with each shot than turn a crossbow into a sub-machine gun.

So you want your crossbow to be a rail gun instead, huh? The original incarnation of this prestige class had that as an option of sorts between machine guns and single power shot. I decided when I revised the class to focus on only one option, considering single shot was basically a copypasta of Order of the Bow Initiate and I wanted something unique that I could call my own and not be accused of plagiarism, so I ended up with this version.

I suppose I may get around to revisiting this sometime in the future in making a sniper-like that takes the Order of the Bow Initiate's idea and running with it for crossbows. Make it actually viable, as the common consensus I hear about the Initiate is that it's not really worth it when Volley archery does so much more damage.

Lix Lorn
2010-04-07, 04:44 PM
Oops. I didn't notice it was old. DXD Oh well. Only a year. I is dread sorceress.