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ChameleonX11
2009-09-18, 06:30 PM
I am about to begin a new campaign, and was looking into the paladin class, but I hit a brick wall when I went to start a bit of optimization. Is there a way? I know that there is a possiblility of a combat/melee cleric, so I know I wont be the best, but I would at least like to hold my own and not be shown up too much.

We begin at second level, and have access to The core books, and PHB2. All other material must be okayed by the GM.

We are rolling the dice for stats, but assume around a 40 point buy, as the gm won't start us with less.

Thanks in advance.

Grumman
2009-09-18, 06:36 PM
A supermount/ubercharger build would work, but it requires non-core material.

Mando Knight
2009-09-18, 06:38 PM
A basic mounted charger isn't... just take the mounted combat chain, and charge on mount-back with a lance. You can use a basic horse with barding before you hit 5th level.

Eldariel
2009-09-18, 06:59 PM
Indeed, Mounted Charger is basically the only thing a core Paladin can do. Even then, Barbarians tend to do it better but Paladins are ok too (just MAD). If possible, get a better Mount with Leadership and burn your first feats on Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack and Spirited Charge.

Then pick up Power Attack and profit. Smite enables hitting rather well. You can start with 1-2 levels of Fighter in case the bonus feats feel necessary (they well might; Mounted Combat is one of the very few ways to burn a lot of feats as a martial character in core and gain a decent benefit). For race, Orc and Human are probably the best options.


Orc has Cha-penalty so you'll obviously focus mostly on your Str that way (with ~14 Cha or so to still keep it relevant), while Human has the extra feat. Human might actually get skill points too, something Paladins struggle with and yet need.

Soo, suggest:
Human (Fighter 1/)Paladin X with Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack and Spirited Charge as his first 3 feats and Leadership on 6 (if allowed) and Power Attack next (and e.g. Quick Draw after to make use of Metamagic Rod of Quicken with Divine Favor). Stats would be Str > Cha > Con > Wis > Int > Dex. You rely on your Str for combat even though you have Smites and all that; they're limited per day while your Str comes into play all the time, hence Str as primary.

Besides Ride, pick Handle Animal as a skill if possible (for the synergy bonus to make up for your ****ty Dex) and then the normal Paladinny stuff in Knowledge (Religion), Diplomacy, Sense Motive, etc. Then just buy a mount until you get one as a class feature/Leadership bonus, acquire a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Quicken to use your buff spells and charge the living out of anything you run into.


A quick dip in Sorcerer (picking up True Strike and Enlarge Person most likely) and heading into Dragon Disciple for 4-8 levels to pump your Str isn't a horrible idea either. Given how unimpressive Paladin casting is, you don't really lose much if Leadershipping your Mount and the stat bonuses help quite a bit.

To spell it out, only Paladin-spells worth casting are:
-Divine Favor
-Lesser Restoration (better Wand anyways; also, Cure Light Wounds Wands are nice)
-Shield Other
-Resist Energy
-Undetectable Alignment
-Heal Mount
-Magic Circle against X
-Holy Sword
-Restoration
-Death Ward

The rest are too gimped by caster level, late availability or other factors to be worthwhile. And even out of those, only really Divine Favor, Shield Other, Resist Energy, Magic Circle, Holy Sword & Death Ward have real combat implications.

Flickerdart
2009-09-18, 07:24 PM
A fun Paladin trick is going Small and taking a Medium mount. That way you can take it into dungeons and such.

quick_comment
2009-09-18, 10:23 PM
There is a feat that lets you cast wizard spells. Its in champions of valor. Notably, polymorph is a level 4 wizard spell.

Draz74
2009-09-18, 10:46 PM
Most of the cool Paladin optimization tricks are non-Core. :smallfrown:

Battle Blessing Feat. Spell Compendium spells.

Oh well. The other thing a Paladin can do (mostly Core) is focus on critical hits, using the Bless Weapon spell and a LOT of Level 1 Pearls of Power. A Falchion and Improved Critical (and Power Attack) are great for this, although a feat is a big investment if you normally use the Lance (for double damage on charges) rather than the Falchion.

tyckspoon
2009-09-18, 11:09 PM
I like a Cha-focused Paladin using Turn Undead uses as his primary resource. You want to ask your DM if you can take Divine Might (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Divine_Might,all), Law Devotion (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Law_Devotion,all), and Battle Blessing. (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Battle_Blessing,all) Shouldn't have much trouble with at least Divine Might. If you don't want to be a mounted fighter, consider picking up the Charging Smite alternate class feature in the PHB2, which gives a hefty chunk of extra damage when you smite something on a charge. A Divine Might'd Power Attack Charging Smite from a character with good Charisma is pretty yummy, especially if you can find a way to Pounce or use Rhino's Rush to benefit from Divine Might multiple times (Spirited Charge with a lance still does more damage, tho.)

Starscream
2009-09-18, 11:27 PM
One option is the Prestige Paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) from Unearthed Arcana. I'd go cleric3/fighter2/prestigepaladinX for easy entry.

You get better HD and BAB than a traditional cleric, but a much more versatile spell list than a normal paladin.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-18, 11:41 PM
There is a feat that lets you cast wizard spells. Its in champions of valor. Notably, polymorph is a level 4 wizard spell.

Sword of the Arcane Order. And if you go the prestige paladin route on say, an archivist, DEFINITELY get it. Between that and a Tome of Ancient Lore, you could conceivably snag every spell in existence by gradually adding all the arcane ones you don't have already to your prayerbook.

Bang
2009-09-19, 01:02 AM
If you go straight paladin, be aware of the alternate Paladin mounts (DMG p.204).

Highlights:
At level 6: Hippogriff, Large Monstrous Spider, Unicorn, Dire Bat
At level 7: Giant Eagle, Giant Owl, Pegasus
At level 8: Griffon

My favorite Paladin-like core build was a Fighter 1/Cleric X focused on combining mounted combat with summoning. I know it's not what you're looking for, but it was fun enough for me to play that I thought I'd point it out. (My second favorite core Paladin was a Bard/Fighter Eldritch Knight... it just fit the archetype so much better...)