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Thunder Hammer
2009-09-21, 12:58 PM
Hey Guys.

I have a player interested in this combination, and actually have no good idea how to help them, as I'm only tangentially aware of this possibility. I had a look in my Complete " " books, and found the Shadowbane Stalker and Inquisitor... Are they the best options?

I'm not sure of the player wants to go with more of a rogue who can use divine magic or a divine magic user who can use rogue abilities. I understand that melee rogues usually focus on dual wielding to take advantage of their sneak attack??

Any generaly suggestions for prestige classes/feats would be great, I don't need a whole level 20 build or anything.

*Note For those who wish to know: The Game is starting at lvl 5, "ultra elite" array of 18,17,16,15,12,10, feats are doubled so: 2 at lvl 1, 1 at lvl 2,3,5,6,8,9,11,12,14,15,17,18 and 20. Race is a human.

Eldariel
2009-09-21, 01:13 PM
Suggest:
- Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric)-variant.
- Sacred Outlaw-feat [DR357, Crystalkeep]: Stacks Cleric & Rogue for Sneak Attack & Turning - of course you'll advance Cleric primarily with just enough Rogue to qualify.
- Able Learner [Races of Destiny]: Advance those Rogue-skills as Cleric thanks to the Cleric skill points.
- Divine Metamagic [Complete Divine] (Persistent Spell [Complete Arcane]): Allows you to Persist (make last 24 hours) buff-spells, including Divine Power and Divine Favor allowing you to actually HIT things. You may need Extra Turning, Nightsticks [Libris Mortis] or such to get sufficient Turn attempts to make this pay off, but it's worth it.

jiriku
2009-09-21, 01:22 PM
Shadowbane stalker is a good prestige class. Rich Burlew has a nice divine trickster homebrew prestige class in the gaming section of this site.

+1 to cloistered cleric/able learner.

The illusion or trickery domains will give you access to some nice stealth-oriented spells.

With a couple of feats invested, martial stance (assassin stance) will improve your sneak attack by 2d6, which helps offset lost sneak attack progression from nonrogue levels.

Eldariel
2009-09-21, 01:28 PM
The illusion or trickery domains will give you access to some nice stealth-oriented spells.

Better yet, Domain Spontaneity in either will give you a plentiful supply of sneak spells, spontaneously no less. I'd definitely pick Domain Spontaneity in a sneaky domain since standard Cleric-list doesn't really fuel stealth all that well.


With a couple of feats invested, martial stance (assassin stance) will improve your sneak attack by 2d6, which helps offset lost sneak attack progression from nonrogue levels.

This is why I suggest Sacred Outlaw; no lost Sneak Attack and no need for PrCs (allowing for a full Cloistered Cleric-progression!). Actually, Rogue 1/Cloistered Cleric 4/Shadowbane Stalker 3/Cloistered Cleric -> might be the best since it loses the least casting levels while maintaining practically full Sneak Attack (Sacred Outlaw requires 2d6 SA so Rogue 1/Cloistered Cleric -> isn't possible, but Shadowbane Stalker gets you the 2nd point of SA before losing a caster level).

woodenbandman
2009-09-21, 01:49 PM
I suggest Divine Prankster. While it's more of a Bard/Cleric rather than a Rogue/Cleric prestige class, it's full progression and it does have 6 skillpoints per level. No sneak attack, and you have to be a gnome (I'd ask the DM), but the spells make up for it.

Another one to try out if you want skills 'n spells is Fochlucan Lyrist. It requires the druidic language and you need bardic music. IF you can qualify you get full BAB, 6 skillpoints per level, and dual progression of arcane and divine casting.

For a rogue/cleric, though, Shadowbane Stalker is really the best class for it. There is probably also something in Complete Champion for you.

Telonius
2009-09-21, 02:01 PM
If he's primarily interested in Rogue with a dash of divine spellcasting, Temple Raider of Olidammara (CDiv) might work for him.

Person_Man
2009-09-21, 02:36 PM
IMO, there's really no reason for a Cleric to multi-class with Rogue. You can do everything a Rogue can do with magic and/or PrC, but better. Cleric 5/Divine Oracle 1/Whatever X.

But if you're wedded to the idea, then you might want to consider Skullclan Hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56795). They're useful for anti-Undead campaigns (and not much else).

Eldariel
2009-09-21, 02:37 PM
IMO, there's really no reason for a Cleric to multi-class with Rogue. You can do everything a Rogue can do with magic and/or PrC, but better. Cleric 5/Divine Oracle 1/Whatever X.

The skill list (especially) and Sneak Attack are both handy tho. Even fully Domained up Cleric misses some of the important Rogue-skills such as Sleight of Hand.

Thunder Hammer
2009-09-21, 03:01 PM
IMO, there's really no reason for a Cleric to multi-class with Rogue. You can do everything a Rogue can do with magic and/or PrC, but better. Cleric 5/Divine Oracle 1/Whatever X.

But if you're wedded to the idea, then you might want to consider Skullclan Hunter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56795). They're useful for anti-Undead campaigns (and not much else).

I've talked to my player, and the concept is a Rogue who has some cleric levels/abilities. Shadowbane stalker definately looks like a good combination. I think she'll go with Rogue 4/Cleric 1 then start on ShadowBaneStalker up to 10. We'll see where it goes from there.

Eldariel
2009-09-21, 03:10 PM
I've talked to my player, and the concept is a Rogue who has some cleric levels/abilities. Shadowbane stalker definately looks like a good combination. I think she'll go with Rogue 4/Cleric 1 then start on ShadowBaneStalker up to 10. We'll see where it goes from there.

Are you going to use Sacred Outlaw? 'cause it's designed JUST for this purpose.

Person_Man
2009-09-21, 03:23 PM
The skill list (especially) and Sneak Attack are both handy tho. Even fully Domained up Cleric misses some of the important Rogue-skills such as Sleight of Hand.

The Initiate of Olidammara feat adds Sleight of Hand, Tumble, and Gather Information as class Skills. Various PrC, such as Divine Prankster, Harper Paragon, etc, also offer Rogue-ish Skills without requiring Rogue levels or giving up caster levels.

Sneak Attack can be gained from Martial Study. Really though, a few extra dice of damage isn't a big deal. It's handy to qualify for certain ambush feats and Craven and whatnot, but they pale in comparison to an even moderately buffed Cleric.

Eldariel
2009-09-21, 03:45 PM
Sneak Attack can be gained from Martial Study. Really though, a few extra dice of damage isn't a big deal. It's handy to qualify for certain ambush feats and Craven and whatnot, but they pale in comparison to an even moderately buffed Cleric.

A moderately buffed Cleric with full SA and Craven still adds ~50+ damage to each of their attacks later on, which isn't really all that minor. And yeah, the ambush feats too. As it costs only 1 level of Cleric-casting, the loss isn't really that major. I mean, sure, the straight Cleric is stronger, but the loss isn't THAT horrible.

Curmudgeon
2009-09-21, 03:54 PM
Cloistered Cleric can be a big boost to Rogue abilities, especially with the domain granted powers and undead turn attempts to power things. And the synergy with Cleric saves filling in the Rogue's weak spots is nice, too. Normally you would use some of the domain powers for feats, but since you've got lots of feats you should concentrate on other things.

Take the Knowledge Devotion feat (Complete Champion), and make sure you can pump lots of points into the 6 Knowledge skills related to creatures. This should give you +2 to hit and damage vs. everything to start with, and more as you keep increasing these skills. Rogues don't have great BAB, so increasing your chance to hit is a big plus. Having enough skill points is key for a Rogue, so put your best stat (18) here. You can use your next-highest for DEX and boost it at 4th level.

Next up should be mobility (the actual stuff, not that weak sauce feat). The Celerity domain and the Quick trait (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#quick) will each increase your base speed by 10'. Then take the Travel Devotion feat (Complete Champion), and you can move that increased speed as a swift action each round, for 10 consecutive rounds. Your Clerical undead turn attempts will power more uses of Travel Devotion daily; you'll get 2 more uses if you have a 12 in CHA. You might want to take Extra Turning if you need more; the feat will another 2 uses daily.

A choice I like for your 3rd domain is Pride, which lets you reroll 1s on all saving throws, once per die.

The key feat for all Rogues is Craven (Champions of Ruin), which boosts sneak attack damage by +1 per character level, so it's ideal for multiclass builds. Note that constant bonus damage, unlike damage from extra dice, is multiplied on critical hits, so both your Knowledge Devotion and Craven damage will get multiplied. That leads to weapon selection, and you can't go wrong with a keen pitspawned (Dungeon Master II) rapier: 15-20 threat range, +2 to confirm critical hits.

Now let's talk armor -- or rather, boosts to AC without armor. There's a nice little wrinkle in the rules that should help you out.

1) Start with the right clothing.
Scholarís Outfit

Perfect for a scholar, this outfit includes a robe, a belt, a cap, soft shoes, and possibly a cloak.2) Next, enhance the robe with an armor bonus (up to +8), as per Magic Item Compendium page 234. This works exactly the same as Bracers of Armor; the "Adding/Improving Common Item Effects" table allows armor bonuses in both Arms (bracers) and Body (robe) slots.

3) Next, you can add an armor enhancement bonus on top of the armor bonus if you cast Magic Vestment:
You imbue a suit of armor or a shield with an enhancement bonus of +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level).

An outfit of regular clothing counts as armor that grants no AC bonus for the purpose of this spell.4) Finally, realize that your armor boost (up to +13 already) isn't from actual armor at all, and thus you can still wear a Monk's Belt to get (1 + WIS bonus) more AC!

Thunder Hammer
2009-09-21, 09:37 PM
Cloistered Cleric can be a big boost to Rogue abilities, especially with the domain granted powers and undead turn attempts to power things. And the synergy with Cleric saves filling in the Rogue's weak spots is nice, too. Normally you would use some of the domain powers for feats, but since you've got lots of feats you should concentrate on other things.

Take the Knowledge Devotion feat (Complete Champion), and make sure you can pump lots of points into the 6 Knowledge skills related to creatures. This should give you +2 to hit and damage vs. everything to start with, and more as you keep increasing these skills. Rogues don't have great BAB, so increasing your chance to hit is a big plus. Having enough skill points is key for a Rogue, so put your best stat (18) here. You can use your next-highest for DEX and boost it at 4th level.

Next up should be mobility (the actual stuff, not that weak sauce feat). The Celerity domain and the Quick trait (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#quick) will each increase your base speed by 10'. Then take the Travel Devotion feat (Complete Champion), and you can move that increased speed as a swift action each round, for 10 consecutive rounds. Your Clerical undead turn attempts will power more uses of Travel Devotion daily; you'll get 2 more uses if you have a 12 in CHA. You might want to take Extra Turning if you need more; the feat will another 2 uses daily.

A choice I like for your 3rd domain is Pride, which lets you reroll 1s on all saving throws, once per die.

The key feat for all Rogues is Craven (Champions of Ruin), which boosts sneak attack damage by +1 per character level, so it's ideal for multiclass builds. Note that constant bonus damage, unlike damage from extra dice, is multiplied on critical hits, so both your Knowledge Devotion and Craven damage will get multiplied. That leads to weapon selection, and you can't go wrong with a keen pitspawned (Dungeon Master II) rapier: 15-20 threat range, +2 to confirm critical hits.

Now let's talk armor -- or rather, boosts to AC without armor. There's a nice little wrinkle in the rules that should help you out.

1) Start with the right clothing.2) Next, enhance the robe with an armor bonus (up to +8), as per Magic Item Compendium page 234. This works exactly the same as Bracers of Armor; the "Adding/Improving Common Item Effects" table allows armor bonuses in both Arms (bracers) and Body (robe) slots.

3) Next, you can add an armor enhancement bonus on top of the armor bonus if you cast Magic Vestment:4) Finally, realize that your armor boost (up to +13 already) isn't from actual armor at all, and thus you can still wear a Monk's Belt to get (1 + WIS bonus) more AC!

Wow. That is officially pimped out!! :cool:

Curmudgeon
2009-09-21, 11:49 PM
Wow. That is officially pimped out!! :cool: Glad you like it. Rogue/Cleric is one of my favorite combinations.

gorfnab
2009-09-22, 02:26 AM
So I noticed you posted this on the WOTC boards too. There are also Black Flame Zealot, Eye of Lloth, and Strifeleader prestige classes. None of them are really useful but they do advance divine spellcasting and sneak attack.

CASTLEMIKE
2009-09-22, 02:59 AM
The Variant Psychic Rogue could be interesting especially if the powers can be tweaked:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b

The Variant Changeling Rogue gets 10 SPs.

Thunder Hammer
2009-09-22, 03:07 PM
Are you going to use Sacred Outlaw? 'cause it's designed JUST for this purpose.

I don't have access to any of the Dragon Magazines, any idea where else I can find this?

Eldariel
2009-09-22, 03:17 PM
I don't have access to any of the Dragon Magazines, any idea where else I can find this?

http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php

Thunder Hammer
2009-09-22, 07:29 PM
http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php

Wow! Awesome resource, thanks!!!

PinkysBrain
2009-09-22, 07:51 PM
Rogue 4/Cleric 1/Shadowbane Stalker should be perfectly playable.

Zaq
2009-09-23, 10:40 AM
Why not an Archivist? They have high INT, so they get a decent number of skills. Hunter's Eye (A Ranger spell from... I think PHB2) gives you a ton of sneak attack, especially with CL boosting tricks. You don't get Turning or any of those fun tricks, but there's a lot to be said for the Archivist. They're one of the Big Five for a reason, after all.