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oxinabox
2009-09-22, 06:35 AM
SO lets have some examples of spells that casters can do that make everyone else seem pointless.

The Pinical edlitch essance ability for Warlocks is to bestow 2 negitive leves (so -2 panlity to everything) i think theres a wizard necromancy spell that can do it at lvl 5.
addmitiedly doesn't do damage at the same time, but still, at lvl 10...

then there's disguise self.
a lvl 1 spell, cvan basically do things that the disuise skill can't do til epic levels, and add a bonus top the roll that is better then the max skill ranks you can have until lvl 7

Kurald Galain
2009-09-22, 06:37 AM
This used to be the point of Divine Power and of Tenser's Transformation.

Cyclocone
2009-09-22, 06:49 AM
Well, Heroics (SpC) makes Fighters cry foul.

Aharon
2009-09-22, 06:53 AM
@Disguise Self
But it's seen through by Divination Magic, which isn't the case for the skill.
I was fond of the idea of disguising myself as a Ghaele Eladrin as a factotum. They have the chaotic subtype, so spellcaster enemies will have to kill me with one of their numerous methods other than Maw of Chaos if they believe my disguise :smallbiggrin:

@Heroics
The best thing is, Martial Stance and Martial Study can be taken as Fighter bonus feats...

Keewatin
2009-09-22, 07:04 AM
Well, Heroics (SpC) makes Fighters cry foul.

Check the material component on heroics its harder to get then you think.


Slay living is pretty much better then the assassin PrC.

Douglas
2009-09-22, 07:10 AM
Not by RAW. No cost is given for it, and...

Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Donít bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#components)

Zeta Kai
2009-09-22, 07:20 AM
Well, mind blank negates any mind-affecting or divination magic, so there goes any enchanter, diviner, or psionic class. :smallyuk:

There's greater invisibility, which is basically infinite Hide ranks plus HiPS. :smallannoyed:

Combined with knock &/or jump, who needs a skillmonkey? :smallsigh:

Dracons
2009-09-22, 07:24 AM
Not by RAW. No cost is given for it, and...

Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Donít bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#components)

Well, in this case the cost is a bit of armor or weapon by a 15th level fighter. That's pretty specific.

The Vorpal Tribble
2009-09-22, 07:27 AM
Hey Ox, do you use Firefox?

Zincorium
2009-09-22, 07:30 AM
Well, in this case the cost is a bit of armor or weapon by a 15th level fighter. That's pretty specific.

1. Find a 15th level fighter.
2. Give him a masterwork buckler with a sickeningly sweet inscription.
3. For every birthday, holiday, anything, give him another one.
4. Wait until he gets annoyed and starts giving them back.
5. shatter
6. ???
7. Profit.

Androgeus
2009-09-22, 08:07 AM
1. Find a 15th level fighter.
2. Give him a masterwork buckler with a sickeningly sweet inscription.
3. For every birthday, holiday, anything, give him another one.
4. Wait until he gets annoyed and starts giving them back.
5. shatter
6. ???
7. Profit.

1. Find a 15th level fighter.
2.Kill him because he really doesn't stand a chance against you, what with being a wizard and all.
3. Loot his corpse
4. shatter
5. ???
6. Profit.

=P

Curmudgeon
2009-09-22, 08:20 AM
Well, in this case the cost is a bit of armor or weapon by a 15th level fighter. That's pretty specific.

A bit of bone from an undead skeleton, zombie, ghoul, ghast, or mummy.
A small scrap of cloth taken from clothing worn by a ghoul, or a pinch of earth from a ghoulís lair. The components from some Necromancy spells are awfully specific, too. While you can just go to an armorer to get scraps from repairs of high-end gear, collecting the components from Necromancy spells ought to require hazard pay.

The rules specifically say you're not supposed to sweat these details. So don't.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-22, 08:22 AM
Well, in this case the cost is a bit of armor or weapon by a 15th level fighter. That's pretty specific.
It's not costly, that's what matters.

If you care about the abstraction ... even a 15th level character is not going to charge you ludicrous amounts of money to hit a practice dummy with a weapon once or wear an armor once.

FMArthur
2009-09-22, 08:24 AM
Well, mind blank negates any mind-affecting or divination magic, so there goes any enchanter, diviner, or psionic class. :smallyuk:

There's greater invisibility, which is basically infinite Hide ranks plus HiPS. :smallannoyed:

Combined with knock &/or jump, who needs a skillmonkey? :smallsigh:

Psionic abilities are almost never involve telepathy - the Telepathy discipline even has some awesome self-target spells, making it useful even against Mind Blank. Beguilers who don't properly cover their bases get taken down a peg by Mind Blank, though.

Hide can't be used like Greater Invisibility even with the best versions of HiPS because of the action requirements, and invisibility isn't actually impossible to see. It's like a modifier of +40 to Hide or +20 while moving.

Jump is obviated by almost any caster, but the skillmonkey itself isn't dependent on Jump in normal cases.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-22, 09:24 AM
Arcane Swordsage using Greater Mighty Wallop on a monk would be entertaining...

"I know kung-fu!"

"Really? ..." -SLAP-

-Monk flies through two walls-

Flickerdart
2009-09-22, 09:30 AM
This used to be the point of Divine Power and of Tenser's Transformation.
That was never the point of Transformation, because Transformation sucks horrible nards. Persisted Divine Power, though, is a CoDzilla staple.

Yora
2009-09-22, 09:34 AM
But that was never intended to be possible.

waterpenguin43
2009-09-22, 09:42 AM
Ice assassin.

Kurald Galain
2009-09-22, 09:43 AM
That was never the point of Transformation,

It's a pretty effective spell back in 2E, fyi.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-22, 09:44 AM
It's a pretty effective spell back in 2E, fyi.

That was also the era when Bladesingers didn't suck :)

Random832
2009-09-22, 10:05 AM
It's a pretty effective spell back in 2E, fyi.

RAW: "to a maximum Armor Class of -10". Discuss. :smallcool:

[in 3e terms that would mean "a minimum armor class of 30"]

Obviously they did not use the word "maximum" correctly. :smallamused:

taltamir
2009-09-22, 01:04 PM
RAW: "to a maximum Armor Class of -10". Discuss. :smallcool:

[in 3e terms that would mean "a minimum armor class of 30"]

Obviously they did not use the word "maximum" correctly. :smallamused:

RAI: improve armor up to -10.
They obviously mean maximum improvements and not mathematical maximum of a negative number.

Myrmex
2009-09-22, 01:07 PM
Shapechange and Gate replaces everyone.

Indon
2009-09-22, 01:14 PM
RAW: "to a maximum Armor Class of -10". Discuss.

-2 penalty to your hit = -2 bonus to target's AC.

There's a reason they got rid of THAC0.

deuxhero
2009-09-22, 01:14 PM
Well, Heroics (SpC) makes Fighters cry foul.

I thought Heroics was used ON the fighter.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-22, 01:19 PM
Well, in this case the cost is a bit of armor or weapon by a 15th level fighter. That's pretty specific.

If only we had some way of Eschewing Materials.

alchemyprime
2009-09-22, 01:35 PM
If only we had some way of Eschewing Materials.

Yes, of course! But such a feat cannot be accomplished by us, can it?

BTW, PFist, you write some stuff made of win. Such as this.

Dracons
2009-09-23, 03:02 PM
This is all true. It doesn't have a cost. But can anyone truely say that a 15th level fighter only wields a staff? The only weapon that doesnt have a cost? All weapons and armor have a cost, so it would have a cost, abiet minor since its only a piece of it.

Besides, we all know that at level 15, the fighters are greedy. What with the wizards owning all.

Godskook
2009-09-23, 03:14 PM
This is all true. It doesn't have a cost. But can anyone truely say that a 15th level fighter only wields a staff? The only weapon that doesnt have a cost? All weapons and armor have a cost, so it would have a cost, abiet minor since its only a piece of it.

Besides, we all know that at level 15, the fighters are greedy. What with the wizards owning all.

1.Attach worthless strap to L15 fighter's armor.
2.Replace after 'use'(going to the bathroom counts, right?)
3.Repeat as needed
4.Profit!

(The normal ??? step wasn't needed...)

Note that regular mundane clothing can be considered 'armor' can be considered 'armor' for the purpose of echanting it(allowing a monk a lot of AC from an 'armored' robe), and thus, with a base cost of <10gp for the whole thing, it is <1gp per spell, and qualifies for eschew materials. Wee!

thubby
2009-09-23, 03:25 PM
This is all true. It doesn't have a cost. But can anyone truely say that a 15th level fighter only wields a staff? The only weapon that doesnt have a cost? All weapons and armor have a cost, so it would have a cost, abiet minor since its only a piece of it.

Besides, we all know that at level 15, the fighters are greedy. What with the wizards owning all.

*dominate person on fighter, hands him a bunch of sticks* :smallbiggrin:

Starbuck_II
2009-09-23, 03:40 PM
Yeah, we found a use for a Non-multiclassing Fighter: to steal his loot.

Jack Zander
2009-09-23, 08:34 PM
That material component is actually harder to obtain than you guys think. There are no adventurers who take 15 levels in fighter and live.

thubby
2009-09-23, 08:37 PM
That material component is actually harder to obtain than you guys think. There are no adventurers who take 15 levels in fighter and live.

there's at least one build that does. ignoring the fact that you don't have to be completely optimized to survive.

quick_comment
2009-09-23, 08:41 PM
That material component is actually harder to obtain than you guys think. There are no adventurers who take 15 levels in fighter and live.

Warblade 15 is a 15th level fighter.

FMArthur
2009-09-24, 12:15 AM
Warblade 15 is a 15th level fighter.

Warblade 17 is a 15th level fighter.

Akisa
2009-09-24, 12:24 AM
Warblade 17 is a 15th level fighter. Wait I thought a 15 Warblade/ 2 Fighter was a level 15th fighter...

peacenlove
2009-09-24, 12:44 AM
there's at least one build that does. ignoring the fact that you don't have to be completely optimized to survive.

Yeah you just have to survive a battle against BBEG #(Random Number) who, mysteriously, is either a mad for power wizard, a vengeful druid or a chosen cleric of an evil god :smallamused: (They incidentally have more levels than you, due to how CR works :smalltongue:).
For a funny example check the Forgotten realms campaign setting. Its hard to find a single classed lvl 15 fighter, AFAIK there are 5 or 6 in the whole campaign setting.
In contrast there is a freaking HAMLET that has 4 epic level wizards and 1 wizard of unknown level and stats (book suggests that he is the most badass of them:smallamused:).

taltamir
2009-09-24, 01:28 AM
That material component is actually harder to obtain than you guys think. There are no adventurers who take 15 levels in fighter and live.

they just need to tag a long with a powerful party :)...
Or be a personal nemesis of a PC (to shamelessly rip off OOTS)

TheThan
2009-09-24, 01:50 AM
Shriveling touch comes to mind as completely overpowered.
But then again if you slap a fort save for half damage on it (like is should have) it drops from Over Powered to Excellent.Now if you want to drop it from Excellent to Great just up the spell level by one.