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Lycanthromancer
2009-09-22, 04:29 PM
I'm revising the ur-priest for a player in a PbP over on Giantitp.com, and I was wanting a bit of a critique on it.

I still need to flesh out the spell list at higher levels, but it's otherwise mostly done.

I was aiming for tier 2-3.

Feedback is welcome!

The class:URTH-PRIEST
Magic. It defies reality. It breaks the rules. It allows one to disregard the laws of physics and perform feats that are impossible.

Or so most people think.

But some know better. Some few realize that magic doesnít defy reality. It defines it. Many scholars spend entire lifetimes peering into the depths of space and time, searching for the threads the fates pull to make mortals and immortals alike dance on their strings.

Some donít have to. And those that find the truth behind the matter begin to see all of reality in a new light.

Every thing that exists, dead, undead, living and unliving, is created and interconnected by dancing lines of energy that radiate and twist and turn, split apart and rejoin, flowing like a river in a great unknowable dance that steals the breath and drives the gears upon which the multiverse turns.

When channeled within the body, this energy is called ki. When wielded by the mind it is the power of psionics. When a mage chants a verse or a priest supplicates his god, they bend and twist this energy into magic, whether arcane or divine. What if one could manipulate this force without an intermediary? What if there were beings that could tap into the source directly, rather than relying on the crutches of mantras, ectoplasm, spell components, or holy symbols?

You end up with the urth-priest, who knows that a great river of power, the leylines, are all around us, within us, driving us, who is unhampered by many of the restrictions that intermediaries place upon those who would shape reality in their image. Urth-priests have found the spark of divinity that drives the great wheel of the multiverse, and can tap into divine power without pestering the gods. They can see the threads of energy that all things produce, and can tap them at will.

Requirements:
Base Will Save: +3
Skills: Knowledge (The Planes) 8 ranks, Survival 8 ranks.
Feats: Planar Touchstone (Planar Handbook, pg 41)

Hit Die
d8

Skills
Skill points per level: 2 + Intelligence modifier.

Class Skills: The urth-priestís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft, (Int), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Survival (Wis), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|0th|1st|2nd|3rd|4t h|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th
1|+0|+2|+0|+2|Tap Leyline (1/day), Eschew Components, Leyline Sense|4|2
2|+1|+3|+0|+3|Sever Tie|5|3|0
3|+2|+3|+1|+3||5|3|1|0
4|+3|+4|+1|+4|Reparation|6|3|2|1|0
5|+3|+4|+1|+4||6|3|3|2|1|0
6|+4|+5|+2|+5|Tap Leyline (2/day)|6|3|3|3|2|1
7|+5|+5|+2|+5||6|3|3|3|3|2|1
8|+6|+6|+2|+6|Improved Reparation|7|4|3|3|3|3|2
9|+6|+6|+3|+6||7|4|4|3|3|3|3|1
10|+7|+7|+3|+7|Leyline Connection|7|4|4|4|3|3|2|2
11|+8|+7|+3|+7||7|4|4|4|3|3|3|3|1
12|+9|+8|+4|+8|Tap Leyline (3/day)|7|5|4|4|4|3|3|3|2
13|+9|+8|+4|+8||7|5|5|4|4|3|3|3|2|1
14|+10|+9|+4|+9||7|5|5|4|4|4|3|3|2|1
15|+11|+9|+5|+9|Affinity Adjunction|7|5|5|5|4|4|3|3|2|2[/table]

All of the following are class features for the urth-priest prestige class.

Weapon and armor proficiency: Urth-priests gain proficiency with simple weapons, but not with armor or shields.

Spells per day: An urth-priest gains the ability to cast a number of spells. To cast a spell, an urth-priest must have a Wisdom score of at least 10 + the spellís level, so an urth-priest with a Wisdom of 10 or lower cannot cast these spells. Urth-priest bonus spells are based on Wisdom, and saving throws against these spells have a DC of 10 + spell level + Wisdom modifier. When the table indicates that the urth-priest gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, such as 0 2nd-level spells at 2nd level, the urth-priest gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Wisdom score for that spell level.

An urth-priest prepares his spells in a manner similar to clerics or druids, spending 10 minutes each day in quiet meditation, attuning himself to the leylines of the space around him. Unlike other prepared spellcasters, when an urth-priest prepares his spells, he can choose to retain unused spell, while refilling used slots with any spells of the appropriate levels that appear in his spell list (or replacing unused spells that he no longer wants with other spells). He does not have restrictions on spells with alignments. The caster level of the urth-priest is determined by the characterís urth-priest levels plus one-half of his levels in other spellcasting classes, including those granted by the warlock or dragonfire adept (but not to prestige classes that grant caster progression in urth-priest). Urth-priest spells are considered both arcane and divine, and can use use-activated items from either category, with the only restrictions being that the spell must be on his standard spell-list, or from a domain currently in use from the tap leyline ability.

Tap Leyline (Su): When preparing spells, an urth-priest attunes himself to the leylines found in a particular area. In addition to the urth-priest spell list found below, he may select a single domain from a list of those available from his current location and add the spells from that domain to his spell list (he does not gain the granted power, however). Most places have three or four domains available, and those domains depend on numerous factors (such as energy traits, the types of creatures living nearby, the principle alignment and weal of the area - such as the Evil and Undeath domains for desecrated ground - and whether the environment is natural, artificial, or supernatural). The domains available in an area are determined by the DM.

Unlike other spellcasters, a high-level urth-priest may prepare his spells more than once per day. At 6th, he may re-prepare the spells gained from this class an extra time per day (for a total of twice). At 12th level, they may prepare three times total over the course of the day. The urth-priest still requires 8 hours of rest, as a normal spellcaster does, to replenish the number of times per day they may prepare their spells.

Each time he prepares his spells, he may choose a different domain.

Eschew Components (Ex): Urth-priests donít have to rely upon holy symbols, on silly words and gestures, or on noxious material components, and they gain the Still Spell, Silent Spell, and Eschew Materials feats for free, with no metamagic adjustments to spells gained through this class. Urth-priests with spell-like abilities, or spellcasting classes other than urth-priest, can apply these feats for free, but only up to the highest level of spells that the urth-priest can cast from the urth-priest list. For example, a wizard 5/urth-priest 2 would only be able to apply the effects of those feats for free on his 0, 1st, and 2nd level wizard spells; upon taking another level in urth-priest, he could apply those feats to his 3rd level wizard spells with no adjustment.

Leyline Sense (Ex): Urth-priests are in tune with the energies around them, and as such can feel the flow of the leylines wherever they go. As a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity, an urth-priest can attune himself to the leylines that surround him, and can see the lines of energy within 60 feet while he concentrates (concentrating on leyline sense is a swift action).

This allows them to determine what domains are available in any given area, and allows them to use some of their more advanced abilities, as well. This ability also allows the urth-priest to determine where dead magic and wild magic areas are within range, as well as any other variances or vagaries that affect magic. It also allows him to determine the health and status of a living, non-living, or undead creature he can see, as he can study the aura that connects it to all things. Except as noted here, treat leyline sense as the detect magic and deathwatch spells.

Sever Tie (Sp): At 2nd level, the urth-priestís ability to affect leylines extends to the creatures around him. On any round he concentrates on his leyline sense, the urth-priest can cut deeply into the aura that connects a creature to the world around it as a standard action, causing severe physical wounds.

The urth-priest can target a single creature within range of his leyline sense, whose status he can discern. If it is within 30 feet, it takes 2d6 points of damage per class level (Fort negates); if it is more than 30 feet away, it takes 1d6 points of damage per class level. In either case, if it fails the saving throw, it is sickened for the next 2 rounds. Sever tie counts as the highest level of spell that the urth-priest can cast for the purposes of its save DC and for effects that can block it (such as a globe of invulnerability), and its caster level is equal to the urth-priestís highest available caster level. Creatures with turn resistance gain a bonus on their Fortitude save equal to their turn resistance. The urth-priest can use this ability 3 + Cha bonus times per day, and it counts as the turn/rebuke undead ability for the purposes of divine feats (except Divine Metamagic), prestige classes, and the Extra Turning feat.

Reparation (Ex): At 4th level, the urth-priest has gained additional affinity towards the lines of power that run through the multiverse. While using his tap leyline ability, he may make a Concentration check (with a minimum DC of 10) to attempt to heal a portion of a dead magic or wild magic area. If successful, he affects a 10 ft diameter space, centered on himself; for every point beyond 10 that his check reaches, the diameter of the healed area increases by 1 ft. This check is made at the beginning of his meditation, and if successful, allows him to use his tap leyline ability to regain spells unobstructed, as normal. If used in a plane with the dead magic planar trait, the repaired portion of the plane dissolves within 1 hour and 10 minutes, returning to its normal dead magic status. This ability can be used only at the beginning of the urth-priestís tap leyline ability, and if it is unsuccessful, the urth-priest must spend an additional use of that ability to try again.

Improved Reparation (Ex): As the reparation ability, except the DC increases to 20, the diameter of the area repaired is 10 times as large, and planes with the dead magic trait return to their previous status after 10 minutes + 1 hour/caster level of the urth-priest. An urth-priest can choose to use the weaker version instead of this one, if he desires.

Leyline Connection (Ex): An urth-priest can tie himself more strongly with the core of magic, allowing him to channel magical power even when other spellcasters would be cut from its source. An urth-priest can spend 10 minutes in concentration, tying himself to the fabric of power itself; if he does so, he can cast spells almost normally, even in an area with the dead magic or limited magic traits. Doing so is difficult, however, and when he does so he is treated as though he were subjected to the impeded magic planar trait. Since he is more closely tied to magic itself, he ignores the regular impeded magic trait. This effect lasts for 10 minutes per caster level of the urth-priest.

Affinity Adjunction (Su): The urth-priest becomes more adept at pulling energy from his environment; at 15th level, whenever he uses his tap leyline ability, he can choose from amongst every domain available to him in the location in which he meditates.

URTH-PRIEST SPELL LIST
0-Level
create water, cure minor wounds, dancing lights, daze, detect magic, flare, ghost sound, guidance, know direction, light, mage hand, mending, message, open/close, purify food and drink, read magic, resistance, touch of fatigue

1st Level
alarm, animate rope, bless, burning hands, cause fear, command, comprehend languages, cure light wounds, detect chaos/evil/good/law, endure elements, erase, expeditious retreat, fairie fire, feather fall, identify, magic mouth, Nystulís magic aura, obscure object, obscuring mist, protection from chaos/evil/good/law, remove fear, sleep, undetectable alignment, ventriloquism

2nd Level
aid, arcane lock, barkskin, bearís endurance, bullís strength, catís grace, calm emotions, chill metal, cure moderate wounds, darkness, delay poison, detect thoughts, fire trap, fog cloud, gust of wind, heat metal, heroism, invisibility, Leomundís trap, lesser restoration, locate object, mirror image, misdirection, pyrotechnics, resist energy, see invisibility, silence, sound burst, spider climb, web, whispering wind

3rd Level
arcane sight, call lightning, clairaudience/clairvoyance, continual flame, cure serious wounds, daylight, deep slumber, deeper darkness, dispel magic, gentle repose, haste, illusory script, invisibility sphere, lightning bolt, magic circle against chaos/evil/good/law, meld into stone, neutralize poison, protection from energy, quench, sleet storm, slow, stone shape, remove curse, remove disease, tongues, water breathing

4th Level
air walk, blight, control water, cure critical wounds, discern lies, dismissal, divination, flame strike, ice storm, mass cure light wounds, freedom of movement, minor creation, reincarnate, repel vermin, restoration, rusting grasp, sending, stoneskin, tongues, wall of fire

5th Level
atonement, awaken, break enchantment, commune, commune with nature, control winds, death ward, disrupting weapon, giant vermin, hallow, harm, heal, major creation, mark of justice, mass cure moderate wounds, raise dead, scrying, spell resistance, tree stride, true seeing, unhallow, wall of stone.

6th Level
animate objects, find the path, fire seeds, greater dispel magic, heroesí feast, ironwood, limited wish, mass cure serious wounds, mass bearís endurance, mass bullís strength, mass catís grace, mass eagleís splendor, mass foxís cunning, mass owlís wisdom, move earth, spellstaff, wind walk

7th Level
control weather, ethereal jaunt, greater restoration, greater scrying, mass cure critical wounds, refuge, regenerate, repulsion, resurrection, sunbeam, transmute metal into wood

8th Level
cloak of chaos, dimension lock, discern location, firestorm, holy aura, mass harm, mass heal, shield of law, sunburst, whirlwind, unholy aura

9th Level
antipathy, astral projection, etherealness, foresight, true resurrection, sympathy, wish

Godskook
2009-09-22, 05:10 PM
I'm revising the ur-priest for a player in a PbP over on Giantitp.com, and I was wanting a bit of a critique on it.

Careful, the players over there are nuts! I used to be a mild regular over there until I came over here, go figure.


What do you think? (http://www.sendspace.com/file/gogp56)

Hate to say it man, but -1 for making it a linked file, -10 for making it a download only linked file. These penalties stack. Ideally, copying it all hear would work, as most of us are used to the forum's standard presentation, and the tables are easier to work with(and typically, if you present without a table, someone is kind enough to do it for you if everything else is coherent).

--------------------------

Yay, 2 regular and 6 epic feats for free! I can't see the table, so I can't tell how many levels it is, but for going Mystic Theurge+Urth Priest, I get rid of ACF on my wizard, plus any additional benefits of still/silent spell. Yeah, that's iffy.

--------------

Tap Leylines? Yes please! I can now go nova, and then re-prepare all my spells! Wahoo. As a player, I love this class already.

------------------------------

I really can't tell how many levels this class is, which affects things some, but it really seems like it overpowers other spellcasters by a few leaps and bounds. Generally speaking, you've made entry easier and the perks seem to be better. It should also be noted that the Ur-Priest's primary abusability was in dipping prior to a hybrid class, and/or the fast progression spells. Basically, if its a 10th level class, you're breaking the normal rule that 9th level spellcasting happens at L17, since an Ur-Priest can get it at L15, with 5 'free' levels to do things other than progress its primary class abilities.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-22, 08:17 PM
Since I'm the player in question, and have the file (Lycanthromancer, just quote me, copy it into your post, and I'll delete this one):
URTH-PRIEST
Magic. It defies reality. It breaks the rules. It allows one to disregard the laws of physics and perform feats that are impossible.

Or so most people think.

But some know better. Some few realize that magic doesnít defy reality. It defines it. Many scholars spend entire lifetimes peering into the depths of space and time, searching for the threads the fates pull to make mortals and immortals alike dance on their strings.

Some donít have to. And those that find the truth behind the matter begin to see all of reality in a new light.

Every thing that exists, dead, undead, living and unliving, is created and interconnected by dancing lines of energy that radiate and twist and turn, split apart and rejoin, flowing like a river in a great unknowable dance that steals the breath and drives the gears upon which the multiverse turns.

When channeled within the body, this energy is called ki. When wielded by the mind it is the power of psionics. When a mage chants a verse or a priest supplicates his god, they bend and twist this energy into magic, whether arcane or divine. What if one could manipulate this force without an intermediary? What if there were beings that could tap into the source directly, rather than relying on the crutches of mantras, ectoplasm, spell components, or holy symbols?

You end up with the urth-priest, who knows that a great river of power, the leylines, are all around us, within us, driving us, who is unhampered by many of the restrictions that intermediaries place upon those who would shape reality in their image. Urth-priests have found the spark of divinity that drives the great wheel of the multiverse, and can tap into divine power without pestering the gods. They can see the threads of energy that all things produce, and can tap them at will.

Requirements:
Base Will Save: +3
Skills: Knowledge (The Planes) 8 ranks, Survival 8 ranks.
Feats: Planar Touchstone (Planar Handbook, pg 41)

Hit Die
d8

Skills
Skill points per level: 2 + Intelligence modifier.

Class Skills: The urth-priestís class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft, (Int), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Knowledge (the planes) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Survival (Wis), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|0th|1st|2nd|3rd|4t h|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th
1|+0|+2|+0|+2|Tap Leyline (1/day), Eschew Components, Leyline Sense|4|2
2|+1|+3|+0|+3|Sever Tie|5|3|0
3|+2|+3|+1|+3||5|3|1|0
4|+3|+4|+1|+4|Reparation|6|3|2|1|0
5|+3|+4|+1|+4||6|3|3|2|1|0
6|+4|+5|+2|+5|Tap Leyline (2/day)|6|3|3|3|2|1
7|+5|+5|+2|+5||6|3|3|3|3|2|1
8|+6|+6|+2|+6|Improved Reparation|7|4|3|3|3|3|2
9|+6|+6|+3|+6||7|4|4|3|3|3|3|1
10|+7|+7|+3|+7|Leyline Connection|7|4|4|4|3|3|2|2
11|+8|+7|+3|+7||7|4|4|4|3|3|3|3|1
12|+9|+8|+4|+8|Tap Leyline (3/day)|7|5|4|4|4|3|3|3|2
13|+9|+8|+4|+8||7|5|5|4|4|3|3|3|2|1
14|+10|+9|+4|+9||7|5|5|4|4|4|3|3|2|1
15|+11|+9|+5|+9|Affinity Adjunction|7|5|5|5|4|4|3|3|2|2[/table]

All of the following are class features for the urth-priest prestige class.

Weapon and armor proficiency: Urth-priests gain proficiency with simple weapons, but not with armor or shields.

Spells per day: An urth-priest gains the ability to cast a number of spells. To cast a spell, an urth-priest must have a Wisdom score of at least 10 + the spellís level, so an urth-priest with a Wisdom of 10 or lower cannot cast these spells. Urth-priest bonus spells are based on Wisdom, and saving throws against these spells have a DC of 10 + spell level + Wisdom modifier. When the table indicates that the urth-priest gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, such as 0 2nd-level spells at 2nd level, the urth-priest gains only the bonus spells he would be entitled to based on his Wisdom score for that spell level.

An urth-priest prepares his spells in a manner similar to clerics or druids, spending 10 minutes each day in quiet meditation, attuning himself to the leylines of the space around him. Unlike other prepared spellcasters, when an urth-priest prepares his spells, he can choose to retain unused spell, while refilling used slots with any spells of the appropriate levels that appear in his spell list (or replacing unused spells that he no longer wants with other spells). He does not have restrictions on spells with alignments. The caster level of the urth-priest is determined by the characterís urth-priest levels plus one-half of his levels in other spellcasting classes, including those granted by the warlock or dragonfire adept (but not to prestige classes that grant caster progression in urth-priest). Urth-priest spells are considered both arcane and divine, and can use use-activated items from either category, with the only restrictions being that the spell must be on his standard spell-list, or from a domain currently in use from the tap leyline ability.

Tap Leyline (Su): When preparing spells, an urth-priest attunes himself to the leylines found in a particular area. In addition to the urth-priest spell list found below, he may select a single domain from a list of those available from his current location and add the spells from that domain to his spell list (he does not gain the granted power, however). Most places have three or four domains available, and those domains depend on numerous factors (such as energy traits, the types of creatures living nearby, the principle alignment and weal of the area - such as the Evil and Undeath domains for desecrated ground - and whether the environment is natural, artificial, or supernatural). The domains available in an area are determined by the DM.

Unlike other spellcasters, a high-level urth-priest may prepare his spells more than once per day. At 6th, he may re-prepare his spells an extra time per day (for a total of twice) - when he does so, all slots, whether they had been previously used or not, are wiped clean and may be refilled however he sees fit. Further, each preparation period only takes half an hour. At 12th level, they may prepare in a third of an hour, for three times total over the course of the day. The urth-priest still requires 8 hours of rest, as a normal spellcaster does, to replenish the number of times per day they may prepare their spells.

Each time he prepares his spells, he may choose a different domain.

Eschew Components (Ex): Urth-priests donít have to rely upon holy symbols, on silly words and gestures, or on noxious material components, and they gain the Still Spell, Silent Spell, and Eschew Materials feats for free, with no metamagic adjustments. Urth-priests with spell-like abilities, or spellcasting classes other than urth-priest, can apply these feats for free, but only up to the highest level of spells that the urth-priest can cast from the urth-priest list. For example, a wizard 5/urth-priest 2 would only be able to apply the effects of those feats for free on his 0, 1st, and 2nd level wizard spells; upon taking another level in urth-priest, he could apply those feats to his 3rd level wizard spells with no adjustment.

Leyline Sense (Ex): Urth-priests are in tune with the energies around them, and as such can feel the flow of the leylines wherever they go. As a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity, an urth-priest can attune himself to the leylines that surround him, and can see the lines of energy within 60 feet while he concentrates (concentrating on leyline sense is a swift action).

This allows them to determine what domains are available in any given area, and allows them to use some of their more advanced abilities, as well. This ability also allows the urth-priest to determine where dead magic and wild magic areas are within range, as well as any other variances or vagaries that affect magic. It also allows him to determine the health and status of a living, non-living, or undead creature he can see, as he can study the aura that connects it to all things. Except as noted here, treat leyline sense as the detect magic and deathwatch spells.

Sever Tie (Sp): At 2nd level, the urth-priestís ability to affect leylines extends to the creatures around him. On any round he concentrates on his leyline sense, the urth-priest can cut deeply into the aura that connects a creature to the world around it as a standard action, causing severe physical wounds.

The urth-priest can target a single creature within range of his leyline sense, whose status he can discern. If it is within 30 feet, it takes 2d6 points of damage per class level (Fort negates); if it is more than 30 feet away, it takes 1d6 points of damage per class level. In either case, if it fails the saving throw, it is sickened for the next 2 rounds. Sever tie counts as the highest level of spell that the urth-priest can cast for the purposes of its save DC and for effects that can block it (such as a globe of invulnerability). Creatures with turn resistance gain a bonus on their Fortitude save equal to their turn resistance. The urth-priest can use this ability 3 + Cha bonus times per day, and it counts as the turn/rebuke undead ability for the purposes of divine feats (except Divine Metamagic), prestige classes, and the Extra Turning feat.

Reparation (Ex): At 4th level, the urth-priest has gained additional affinity towards the lines of power that run through the multiverse. While using his tap leyline ability, he may make a Concentration check (with a minimum DC of 10) to attempt to heal a portion of a dead magic or wild magic area. If successful, he affects a 10 ft diameter space, centered on himself; for every point beyond 10 that his check reaches, the diameter of the healed area increases by 1 ft. This check is made at the beginning of his meditation, and if successful, allows him to use his tap leyline ability to regain spells unobstructed, as normal. If used in a plane with the dead magic planar trait, the repaired portion of the plane dissolves within 1 hour and 10 minutes, returning to its normal dead magic status.

Improved Reparation (Ex): As the reparation ability, except the DC increases to 20, the diameter of the area repaired is 10 times as large, and planes with the dead magic trait return to their previous status after 10 minutes + 1 hour/caster level of the urth-priest. An urth-priest can choose to use the weaker version instead of this one, if he desires.

Leyline Connection (Ex): An urth-priest can tie himself more strongly with the core of magic, allowing him to channel magical power even when other spellcasters would be cut from its source. An urth-priest can spend 10 minutes in concentration, tying himself to the fabric of power itself; if he does so, he can cast spells almost normally, even in an area with the dead magic or limited magic traits. Doing so is difficult, however, and when he does so he is treated as though he were subjected to the impeded magic planar trait. Since he is more closely tied to magic itself, he ignores the regular impeded magic trait. This effect lasts for 10 minutes per caster level of the urth-priest.

Affinity Adjunction (Su): The urth-priest becomes more adept at pulling energy from his environment; at 15th level, whenever he uses his tap leyline ability, he can choose from amongst every domain available to him in the location in which he meditates.

URTH-PRIEST SPELL LIST
0-Level
create water, cure minor wounds, dancing lights, daze, detect magic, flare, ghost sound, guidance, know direction, light, mage hand, mending, message, open/close, purify food and drink, read magic, resistance, touch of fatigue

1st Level
alarm, animate rope, bless, burning hands, cause fear, command, comprehend languages, cure light wounds, detect chaos/evil/good/law, endure elements, erase, expeditious retreat, fairie fire, feather fall, identify, magic mouth, Nystulís magic aura, obscure object, obscuring mist, protection from chaos/evil/good/law, remove fear, sleep, undetectable alignment, ventriloquism

2nd Level
aid, arcane lock, barkskin, bearís endurance, bullís strength, catís grace, calm emotions, chill metal, cure moderate wounds, darkness, delay poison, detect thoughts, fire trap, fog cloud, gust of wind, heat metal, heroism, invisibility, Leomundís trap, lesser restoration, locate object, mirror image, misdirection, pyrotechnics, resist energy, see invisibility, silence, sound burst, spider climb, web, whispering wind

3rd Level
arcane sight, call lightning, clairaudience/clairvoyance, continual flame, cure serious wounds, daylight, deep slumber, deeper darkness, dispel magic, gentle repose, haste, illusory script, invisibility sphere, lightning bolt, magic circle against chaos/evil/good/law, meld into stone, neutralize poison, protection from energy, quench, sleet storm, slow, stone shape, remove curse, remove disease, tongues, water breathing

4th Level
air walk, blight, control water, cure critical wounds, discern lies, dismissal, divination, flame strike, ice storm, mass cure light wounds, freedom of movement, minor creation, reincarnate, repel vermin, restoration, rusting grasp, sending, stoneskin, tongues, wall of fire

5th Level
atonement, awaken, break enchantment, commune, commune with nature, control winds, death ward, disrupting weapon, giant vermin, hallow, harm, heal, major creation, mark of justice, mass cure moderate wounds, raise dead, scrying, spell resistance, tree stride, true seeing, unhallow, wall of stone.

6th Level
animate objects, find the path, fire seeds, greater dispel magic, heroesí feast, ironwood, limited wish, mass cure serious wounds, mass bearís endurance, mass bullís strength, mass catís grace, mass eagleís splendor, mass foxís cunning, mass owlís wisdom, move earth, spellstaff, wind walk

7th Level
control weather, ethereal jaunt, greater restoration, greater scrying, mass cure critical wounds, refuge, regenerate, repulsion, resurrection, sunbeam, transmute metal into wood

8th Level
cloak of chaos, dimension lock, discern location, firestorm, holy aura, mass harm, mass heal, shield of law, sunburst, whirlwind, unholy aura

9th Level
antipathy, astral projection, etherealness, foresight, true resurrection, sympathy, wish
Responses to Godskook:

A. Definitely should not be able to re-prepare any non-Urth-Priest spell slots. It doesn't say that now, I realize, but I'm sure that was the intent. For the urth-priest itself, I'm... not sure. Without he'd be kinda low on spell slots. With, he's got a ton, but it requires getting the opportunity to reprepare. Plus, he's at the mercy of the DM for most of his spells, since his actual list is somewhat limited (though it does have some gems). It's definitely a powerful ability. An overpowered one? I'm not sure. It's a unique ability, certainly.

B. 2 regular and 6 epic feats? Which feats? Eschew Materials++, OK, but that doesn't seem all that strong most of the time. I doubt I'd take it as a feat. The rest?

C. The Reparation and Connection abilties are either very powerful (since AFAIK those aren't effects that are generally available), or just pure flavor, depending on the campaign. In lots of campaigns the wild/dead magic areas are just going to be a novelty, anyway. If they're a big part of the campaign, though, yeah, certainly it's overpowered.

D. Yes, Theurgy here is particularly good - but less good than the Ur-Priest. Frankly, since 'normal' entry into theurgic classes is a massive power loss compared to the straight-classed casters on either side, this does not seem like a bad thing to me.


Personal thoughts (some of which is in your PM, Lycan):

1. Planar Touchstone requires at least level 5 to get. That makes entering this class rather difficult at level 6, since the rule is that you need to have previously met all of the pre-requisites before taking a level in a class.

2. Why do they gain simple weapon proficiency? I hadn't noticed that - it's pretty rare for PrCs to grant proficiencies, and as a caster class, I don't see any reason why this should - even if it is just the simple weapons.

3. While Silent/Still/Eschew Materials are pretty weak feats, especially with the spell level adjustment on the first two, giving all three and making them free is a pretty big ability to give on level 1. Not many DMs are going to allow a dip of a Homebrew class, but still. While not necessarily powerful, it certainly is a lot.

4. I've already noted how I feel Sever Tie is strange as a Turn Undead analogue. It definitely needs class-level-based advancement instead of spellcasting-based-advancement, at least.

5. Reparation and Connection are either nice and flavorful, or very powerful, depending on the campaign, as noted above.

That all said, I really love this class's flavor. Very "caretaker of the planes", which I think is awesome.

Godskook
2009-09-23, 12:21 AM
@DragoonWraith, I'll admit, I have a bad time estimating spell lists, so keep that in mind with my comments. If you've depleted the spell list significantly to hurt this compared to standard divine casters, that's something.


A. Definitely should not be able to re-prepare any non-Urth-Priest spell slots. It doesn't say that now, I realize, but I'm sure that was the intent. For the urth-priest itself, I'm... not sure. Without he'd be kinda low on spell slots. With, he's got a ton, but it requires getting the opportunity to reprepare. Plus, he's at the mercy of the DM for most of his spells, since his actual list is somewhat limited (though it does have some gems). It's definitely a powerful ability. An overpowered one? I'm not sure. It's a unique ability, certainly.

Overpowered, definitely. Any encounter that requires more than 2 9th level spells(and additional lower level ones) is consuming more resources than a normal caster should have, so you're actually coming out ahead of the normal casters unless your DM bases combat expectations off your tier 0 caster. According to the table, only 8th and 9th level spells are missing significantly, and even then, the bonus spells are the same, and then(by this point), you're tripling all your spell slots, including bonus spells. Insane.


B. 2 regular and 6 epic feats? Which feats? Eschew Materials++, OK, but that doesn't seem all that strong most of the time. I doubt I'd take it as a feat. The rest?

I'm sorry, 3 + 6 feats:
1.Eschew materials
2.Still spell
3.Silent spell
4-6.Auto still spell
7-9.Auto silent spell

Sure, the still-chain doesn't help a divine caster much, if at all, but it is a boon to arcane casters, which is specifically mentioned as a multiclass option...

There's also the absence of the divine focus, making this guy completely unstoppable unless killed. The typical wizard/sorcerer can be bound and gagged, the typical cleric can have his holy symbol taken away. Not having a single weak point the Urth's casting means the only way to stop him is to kill him. Bad for balance.


C. The Reparation and Connection abilties are either very powerful (since AFAIK those aren't effects that are generally available), or just pure flavor, depending on the campaign. In lots of campaigns the wild/dead magic areas are just going to be a novelty, anyway. If they're a big part of the campaign, though, yeah, certainly it's overpowered.

I didn't comment here....


D. Yes, Theurgy here is particularly good - but less good than the Ur-Priest. Frankly, since 'normal' entry into theurgic classes is a massive power loss compared to the straight-classed casters on either side, this does not seem like a bad thing to me.

Until you realize that a wiz 5/urth 2/MT 10/urth +3 is probably more powerful than a cleric or druid, and is only 1/2 a spell level behind from L10 onward, yeah. You're upgrading from tier 1. How can that not be overpowered?

---------------------

Overall, you're offering full-caster casting in 15 levels, without any explicit downsides that I can see. That means that you're essentially offering a 20 levels in 15, so essentially, it is now 33% better than anything else. You then put juicy rewards for hybrid casters(Eschew Components) and straight Urth-Priests(doubling and then tripling spell slots for class slots). Sure, if you're handing this to a trustworthy player who'll behave with this monstrosity, it could probably be used to ok with a party, as long as the party is either getting something else to compensate or is comfortable with 1 player being a tier above wizards.

'Course, the aim was tier 2-3, which means that you'd need to first make this class worse than a sorcerer/favored soul, which it isn't.

I think it would be easier and more balanced if you simply used the cleric instead, and gave the ur-priest class abilities at the appropriate relative cleric class levels.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-23, 12:36 AM
@DragoonWraith, I'll admit, I have a bad time estimating spell lists, so keep that in mind with my comments. If you've depleted the spell list significantly to hurt this compared to standard divine casters, that's something.
The base list is pretty weak. The Domains... depend on the Domain. Which are up to the DM.


Overpowered, definitely. Any encounter that requires more than 2 9th level spells(and additional lower level ones) is consuming more resources than a normal caster should have, so you're actually coming out ahead of the normal casters unless your DM bases combat expectations off your tier 0 caster. According to the table, only 8th and 9th level spells are missing significantly, and even then, the bonus spells are the same, and then(by this point), you're tripling all your spell slots, including bonus spells. Insane.
Yeah... I tend to agree. I suggested just upping the spell slots some (akin to Sorcerer or Beguiler) at higher levels when you no longer have accelerated spellcasting, and avoiding the re-preparation thing.

That said... it is an interesting mechanic. But with it, yeah, I'd say he'd probably need to get a 0 in the 9th spell column, really.

The level they're currently at is partially my fault; I suggested moving them up from where they were originally before I realized that it let you refresh your spell slots. Originally 3/day was a capstone and 2/day was at 13th.


I'm sorry, 3 + 6 feats:
1.Eschew materials
2.Still spell
3.Silent spell
4-6.Auto still spell
7-9.Auto silent spell

Sure, the still-chain doesn't help a divine caster much, if at all, but it is a boon to arcane casters, which is specifically mentioned as a multiclass option...

There's also the absence of the divine focus, making this guy completely unstoppable unless killed. The typical wizard/sorcerer can be bound and gagged, the typical cleric can have his holy symbol taken away. Not having a single weak point the Urth's casting means the only way to stop him is to kill him. Bad for balance.
I agree with this assessment, I think. My reaction that was "well, it's not really that important, even if it is giving a lot... does remove one of the big ways a DM can stop a caster though"


I didn't comment here....
I thought those were what you were referring to as the Epic Feats, because I didn't realize that Auto Still/Silent existed.


Until you realize that a wiz 5/urth 2/MT 10/urth +3 is probably more powerful than a cleric or druid, and is only 1/2 a spell level behind from L10 onward, yeah. You're upgrading from tier 1. How can that not be overpowered?
Heh, part of it is because we were coming at this from the angle of Warlock 5/Urth 2/Eldritch Disciple 13 (yes, 13). But I'm not sure 12th level Urth casting is necessarily worth two levels of Wizard. Actually, I kind of think it isn't.


Overall, you're offering full-caster casting in 15 levels, without any explicit downsides that I can see. That means that you're essentially offering a 20 levels in 15, so essentially, it is now 33% better than anything else. You then put juicy rewards for hybrid casters(Eschew Components) and straight Urth-Priests(doubling and then tripling spell slots for class slots). Sure, if you're handing this to a trustworthy player who'll behave with this monstrosity, it could probably be used to ok with a party, as long as the party is either getting something else to compensate or is comfortable with 1 player being a tier above wizards.

'Course, the aim was tier 2-3, which means that you'd need to first make this class worse than a sorcerer/favored soul, which it isn't.

I think it would be easier and more balanced if you simply used the cleric instead, and gave the ur-priest class abilities at the appropriate relative cleric class levels.
Well, the idea was to be a full-caster, but starting late at 5. The neutered spell list was supposed to drop it from Tier 1 to Tier 3 or so - I'm pretty confident that barring the re-preparation thing and the Eschew Components thing, it would be quite a bit weaker than Beguiler 20, because of the spell list. So I don't think the 15 level thing is inherently unbalanced.

Then again, I don't really consider Ur-Priest to be unbalanced, either, unless you get into 1.5x caster level progression.

PId6
2009-09-23, 01:16 AM
I'd just like to respond to Godskook: that spell list is terrible. The only usable-on-a-regular-basis 9th level spells are Etherealness and Foresight, which are severely limited spells especially when you lack immediate action spells. If you go down the list, there are some decent/useful spells, but you definitely don't have any gamebreaker ones from the cleric/wizard lists. Getting 9th level spells in 15 levels really mean very very little when you're only casting Etherealness with them. So your spell list is completely at he mercy of the DM; a severe enough limitation that brings it far below T1 casters.

But I do agree that Tap Leyline is too strong. Regaining all spell slots three times a day is way too good, even with such a gimped spell list. I would say, maybe only allow you to exchange spell slots that you haven't cast yet, or only for domain spells. Otherwise it becomes a tad ridiculous how much you can cast per encounter.

Mulletmanalive
2009-09-23, 10:44 AM
I'd just like to respond to Godskook: that spell list is terrible. The only usable-on-a-regular-basis 9th level spells are Etherealness and Foresight, which are severely limited spells especially when you lack immediate action spells. If you go down the list, there are some decent/useful spells, but you definitely don't have any gamebreaker ones from the cleric/wizard lists. Getting 9th level spells in 15 levels really mean very very little when you're only casting Etherealness with them. So your spell list is completely at he mercy of the DM; a severe enough limitation that brings it far below T1 casters.

I'd suggest reading the Tap Leyline feature again. It grants access to a Domain and they don't function like conventional domain spells but are added to the spell list. This domain is changed each time you use Tap Layline.

I'd invite you to say that Elemental Swarm [Fire], Obedient Avalanche [Cold] or Summon Monster 9 [diabolic] are underpowered with a straight face

Godskook
2009-09-23, 11:02 AM
I'd just like to respond to Godskook:

Heh, I did address that:


@DragoonWraith, I'll admit, I have a bad time estimating spell lists, so keep that in mind with my comments. If you've depleted the spell list significantly to hurt this compared to standard divine casters, that's something.

PId6
2009-09-23, 11:42 AM
I'd suggest reading the Tap Leyline feature again. It grants access to a Domain and they don't function like conventional domain spells but are added to the spell list. This domain is changed each time you use Tap Layline.

I'd invite you to say that Elemental Swarm [Fire], Obedient Avalanche [Cold] or Summon Monster 9 [diabolic] are underpowered with a straight face
Yes, I know, but access to those spells are only at the whim of the DM. And even with those spells, this caster lacks one of the greatest advantages of T1 casters: versatility. Sure, through domains you might get some powerful spells, but you can't actually choose them yourself, unlike a wizard or cleric. Spamming Elemental Swarm might be decent at some places, but you don't have the power to switch to Disjunction at whim even if you know that you're facing a wizard tomorrow. You can spam a few decent spells, but that makes you little better than a weak sorcerer, and since T2-3 is what the author is going for, I think this is just about right.

But Tap Leyline will have to be nerfed though.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-23, 03:11 PM
I'd suggest reading the Tap Leyline feature again. It grants access to a Domain and they don't function like conventional domain spells but are added to the spell list. This domain is changed each time you use Tap Layline.

I'd invite you to say that Elemental Swarm [Fire], Obedient Avalanche [Cold] or Summon Monster 9 [diabolic] are underpowered with a straight face
This is part where my weakness in judging things comes in - I've never played a character that used Domains before. I don't really know them that well.

Lycanthromancer
2009-09-23, 03:22 PM
Well, as far as the eschew components ability goes, it's actually less than what psionic characters get (because Eschew Materials doesn't cover expensive components, which psionics don't use).

In my experience, this doesn't lead to psions being overpowered.

Refilling spell-slots shouldn't be too bad, I'd think; the spell list is sub-par, and being able to cast frequently (thereby being useful) from a less powerful list (with fewer spell slots than most other casters) should be just about right.

I figured that giving fewer spell slots at once with the ability to refill them would give them less versatility and stamina up front, but far more throughout the day. *Shrug*

DragoonWraith
2009-09-23, 04:15 PM
I think you're probably right, at least with lower level spells. For 7th, 8th, and 9th... I might do 0/1/2, instead of 1/2/3 on those. Because you get them after you're already getting 2/day, they're more powerful, etc.

But really, my feeling on it is, why don't we try it out and see how it goes?

Lycanthromancer
2009-09-23, 11:49 PM
Do note that sever tie's DC and effective spell level is based on the highest spell he can cast, but that the damage is based on class level (and only goes up to 30d6, pre-epic).

(I also made a note stating that its effective caster level was equal to the urth-priest's highest available caster level. Y'know, as 'errata'.)

Godskook
2009-09-24, 12:37 AM
Well, as far as the eschew components ability goes, it's actually less than what psionic characters get (because Eschew Materials doesn't cover expensive components, which psionics don't use).

In my experience, this doesn't lead to psions being overpowered.

In your experience, are Psions as powerful as wizards are? That's not where Psions are placed on the tier list. Psions are tier 2, while wizards are tier 1. Allowing wizards to bypass one of their balancing points, using the Psion as the justification, when the Psion wasn't balanced on that point, is ludicrous. That's like saying "since all the fighter's abilities are at-will, and the fighter isn't broken, all the wizard's abilities can be at-will too". Different mechanics, whose power level is balanced differently, can't be fairly compared like that. The balancing issues of metamagic are completely different than the balancing issues of metapsionics, and one should not be mentioned to justify balance in the other.


(I also made a note stating that its effective caster level was equal to the urth-priest's highest available caster level. Y'know, as 'errata'.)

1.Could you please post it to the top post. It makes attempts at help easier, it really does.

2.Another bonus feat? Is this one at first level too? Unless you've changed some things, this is starting to turn into a hybrid's ticket to the big time.

PId6
2009-09-24, 12:51 AM
In your experience, are Psions as powerful as wizards are? That's not where Psions are placed on the tier list. Psions are tier 2, while wizards are tier 1. Allowing wizards to bypass one of their balancing points, using the Psion as the justification, when the Psion wasn't balanced on that point, is ludicrous. That's like saying "since all the fighter's abilities are at-will, and the fighter isn't broken, all the wizard's abilities can be at-will too". Different mechanics, whose power level is balanced differently, can't be fairly compared like that. The balancing issues of metamagic are completely different than the balancing issues of metapsionics, and one should not be mentioned to justify balance in the other.
I think your biggest concerns here are powerful Mystic Theurge builds with this and wizard, correct? Well an easy fix would be to just remove the ability to apply Eschew Components to spells outside of this class. The Urth-Priest's spell list is certainly not T1-worthy, so as long as you can't apply its abilities to a wizard as well, it should be fairly balanced.

I'm still dubious about Tap Leyline though. It makes it extremely easy to pseudo-persist spells by spacing your castings throughout the day (though admittedly he doesn't have that much to use it on without taking domains into account). Plus, since most days you have 4 encounters or less, you essentially end up with all of your spells newly-prepared before almost every encounter. But only testing can really tell though.

Lycanthromancer
2009-09-24, 12:53 AM
In your experience, are Psions as powerful as wizards are? That's not where Psions are placed on the tier list. Psions are tier 2, while wizards are tier 1. Allowing wizards to bypass one of their balancing points, using the Psion as the justification, when the Psion wasn't balanced on that point, is ludicrous. That's like saying "since all the fighter's abilities are at-will, and the fighter isn't broken, all the wizard's abilities can be at-will too". Different mechanics, whose power level is balanced differently, can't be fairly compared like that. The balancing issues of metamagic are completely different than the balancing issues of metapsionics, and one should not be mentioned to justify balance in the other.Psions can be powerful, but in general they're nowhere near as powerful. And neither is this class (though it does make mystic theurge better - but not nearly as awesomely powerful as the ur priest...). I did make a few minor tweaks (such as noting that tap leyline only works on spells gained through levels in urth-priest, and that eschew components only works on equivalent spell-levels gained specifically from taking levels in urth-priest - so no buffing it up through mystic theurgicry.

Minor, but it does nerf multicasters somewhat.


1.Could you please post it to the top post. It makes attempts at help easier, it really does.Done.


2.Another bonus feat? Is this one at first level too? Unless you've changed some things, this is starting to turn into a hybrid's ticket to the big time.Bonus feat? Are you talking about eschew components? Probably not, since you've already commented on it.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-24, 12:54 AM
I tend to agree, Eschew Components should just state that Urth-Priest's spells don't have any somatic, verbal, or free material components (they do still have costly material components and experience components), and maybe give Eschew Materials, Still Spell, and Silent Spell as bonus feats to be used as normal with other classes.

But, what other Bonus Feat? I don't see any more Bonus Feats?

Lycanthromancer
2009-09-24, 12:59 AM
I don't see Still OR Silent Spell to be worth +1 LA; they're far too situational, and those situations really shouldn't come up often at all. So situational, in fact, that few-to-no prepcasters would use the feat, and feats are so hard to come by for spontaneous casters that they probably would never take the feats in the first place.

Godskook
2009-09-24, 01:08 AM
Bonus feat? Are you talking about eschew components? Probably not, since you've already commented on it.

Practiced spellcaster


I think your biggest concerns here are powerful Mystic Theurge builds with this and wizard, correct? Well an easy fix would be to just remove the ability to apply Eschew Components to spells outside of this class. The Urth-Priest's spell list is certainly not T1-worthy, so as long as you can't apply its abilities to a wizard as well, it should be fairly balanced.

Yes, my biggest worry is the hybrids. Now that Lyco(or what do you go by, for short?) has posted a new version in the thread, I'll avoid commenting directly on the class till I see what's changed or not. Its too late for that now, so some time tomorrow, maybe.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-24, 02:11 AM
Actually, it's closer to Druidic Theurgy (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Druidic_Theurgy,all), really. But still, a fair point.

I agree that Still and Silent aren't worth the LA. If they were LA+0, though, then they'd be definitely worth a feat. As is, I consider Silent to be a very valid choice on a Sorcerer, especially a Core Sorcerer (like mine). So you are definitely at least giving the equivalent of three feats there. Three weak feats, sure, but still three feats.