PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] Anti-Mage "Fighter"



Zovc
2009-09-24, 08:19 PM
Is there a "fighter" style class (heaviest armor and weapon available) tailored to fighting spellcasters (arcane in particular)?

Soras Teva Gee
2009-09-24, 08:24 PM
Unless it can teleport as a swift action or the like its not going to matter much.

Arakune
2009-09-24, 08:26 PM
The best "anti-mage" fighter I saw were Gishes that abuse the anti-magic donut.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-09-24, 08:27 PM
Is there a "fighter" style class (heaviest armor and weapon available) tailored to fighting spellcasters (arcane in particular)?

Yeah. It's called "something that you haven't made yet in homebrew".

Logalmier
2009-09-24, 08:28 PM
Not any effective ones, but I believe there is a prestige class in CA that is focused on mage slaying.

Demons_eye
2009-09-24, 08:33 PM
Psychic Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm) with mage slayer feats?

Augmented Lurk
2009-09-24, 08:44 PM
Unless it can teleport as a swift action or the like its not going to matter much.

You mean like a Swordsage?

lsfreak
2009-09-24, 08:53 PM
You mean like a Swordsage?

50 feet once an encounter isn't going to help a whole lot.

Best bet is probably a gish build. Wizard/warblade/jadephoenixmage/abjurant champion, wizard/fighter/abjurant champion/eldritch knight, something along those lines. However, I haven't leeched gish build knowledge as much as other stuff, so...

/cast summon Eldariel
/cast summon Keld

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-24, 08:56 PM
I predict Keld will talk about the Suel Arcanamach.

SparkMandriller
2009-09-24, 09:00 PM
Just get a custom item of AMF.


They can't use spells on you, so you'll be totally cool, right?

Soras Teva Gee
2009-09-24, 09:13 PM
Just get a custom item of AMF.


They can't use spells on you, so you'll be totally cool, right?

Sure unless they use Wall spells around you. Killing you might be a harder but isn't going to make you an effective anti-mage necessarily.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-09-24, 09:31 PM
Well, the homebrew class "warmarked" that's currently being playtested in Test Of Spite has potential as a mage slayer with the right build.

9mm
2009-09-24, 09:46 PM
Fighter Standstill lockdown (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you) can work, as can a boomerang BC build. but its highly dependent on gear.

Ernir
2009-09-24, 09:52 PM
The only real, dedicated anti-caster class I can think of is the Spellthief. And it is neither very powerful nor what I believe you were thinking of.

Caster killing is
a) Hard to pull off, when talking about reasonably high level/competent casters.
b) Best done by other casters. I'd suggest a gish wearing heavy armor, but it does not sound like what you were looking for...
c) Done with tactics and feat selection, rather than picking a single powerful anti-caster PrC.


Anyway... if I wanted a gishless one, I'd go for a Crusader. Focus on lock-down, pick things like Thicket of Blades (Stance), Stand Still (Feat), the Mage Slayer line (Feats), and... EWP: Spiked Chain. That way, most casters should be screwed pretty hard if you somehow get in their faces. You can add AMF access if you want. But this is the easy part.
The hard part is to actually get in range. Higher level casters are likely to be protected by a layer of immediate-action getaway spells, which are just really difficult to counter without being a caster yourself. I for one don't know how, as I noncaster, I could possibly prevent a Wizard from saying "I cast Celerity, and use the action to cast Teleport-the-hell-away" as soon as I show up on his scanner.

Stuff like swift action teleports (the Shadow Hand maneuvers have been mentioned) help, but immediate actions are your real problem. Get a way around those, and they might have a reason to be afraid!

Keld Denar
2009-09-24, 10:15 PM
Wait...I heard my name....

To be an antimage, you need to be able to do a few things.

A) Find the mage (harder than it sounds)
B) Get close to the mage (unless you are Arching, which is probably a better idea anyway)
C) Keep the mage from using Swift/Immediate Action teleportation or simply moving/tumbling away.
D) Disable the mage's Contingencies
E) Destroy the mage's soul (prevents clone and Astral Projection shananigans)

And all this depends on level. At level 1, the hardest thing would probably be tracking down a specific obscure nobody mage. At level 5-7, this is probably getting close, since mages LOVE to fly. At level 10ish, it'll probably be keeping the mage in range, since he'll potentially have low level spells that he can quicken to get the hell out of your way. 11th level picks up the possiblility of Contingency (assuming no Craft Contingent Spell) which, depending on how smart/paranoid the mage is, could keep you from even getting close. Much higher than that, you start running into problems with extra planar fortresses, and a combination of a large number of factors.

It also depends a lot the level of optimization of the mage. If its a player running a particularly paranoid mage, he could potentially by level 4-5 blow his entire WBL on a scroll of Planar Binding, bind a Nightmare, use it to Plane Shift to the Ethereal and then Astrally Project to the Prime, thus giving him a "free guy" while aquiring XP and gear. All he'd have to do is aquire enough cash during that "life" to buy another scroll of Planar Binding, stash it somewhere, and continue adventuring. Techincially, doable at level 1 with Mount, Diguise, Magic Aura, and a TON of time, but yea...

If its a DM run NPC mage, chances are hes not gonna be running a fully optimized spell list, won't have major contingencies, won't have Abrupt Jaunt, and won't be Astrally Projected, regardless of level. You're biggest concern will probably be making saves and breaking through a minimum of protection.

I'd suggest something like a Melee Cleric, a Sorcadin, or a Paladin or Hexblade based Suel Arcanamach build. Heck, even a Dwarven Str/Con focused Deepwarden build with Steadfast Determination would handle pretty well since you'd be immune to everything with a Fort or Will save, and you'd have enough HP to survive the standard gambit of Ref saves and spells without saves.

Depends on how fancy you want to get and what you are expecting.

Myrmex
2009-09-24, 11:13 PM
50 feet once an encounter isn't going to help a whole lot.

You can use them multiple times by readying copies of them. They also come in 3 actions- standard, move and swift.

Combine with Shadow Pounce to ruin an arcanist's day.

Soras Teva Gee
2009-09-24, 11:20 PM
Higher level casters are likely to be protected by a layer of immediate-action getaway spells, which are just really difficult to counter without being a caster yourself. I for one don't know how, as I noncaster, I could possibly prevent a Wizard from saying "I cast Celerity, and use the action to cast Teleport-the-hell-away" as soon as I show up on his scanner.

Well the simple answer is this becomes more about foiling the mage's objective then killing them. If you send one of America's mere handful of carriers back into home port, you've slash a major percentage of the military force arrayed against you even if it only needs a short time. In anything resembling real life (and thus an actual storyline) thats significant. Sure unlike a carrier the caster can come right back, but if you are neutralizing the casters tricks when present this is just the same passe. Hypothetically you've made the caster into a monk, sure he'll survive but if he can't do anything so what.

If the DM is running the caster as an opponent, you'll either advance the story to your benefit or the DM is railroading you anyways. If the PC is running the escape caster then you are either wasting your PC and not advancing the storyline, or setting yourself up for nastiness on the other end of the teleport.

It may be next to impossible to prevent a highish level caster from escaping, but except on paper this is less of an obstacle then Fly. You just need an anti-mage build that isn't a one/day trick pony. Assuming such a thing is possible in the first place.

(Though on a side note Celerity should still be banned by any decent DM, or inflict a real consequence like level drain....)

The Glyphstone
2009-09-24, 11:23 PM
You can use them multiple times by readying copies of them. They also come in 3 actions- standard, move and swift.

Combine with Shadow Pounce to ruin an arcanist's day.

Pretty sure you can't ready the same maneuver twice.

Grumman
2009-09-24, 11:36 PM
I for one don't know how, as I noncaster, I could possibly prevent a Wizard from saying "I cast Celerity, and use the action to cast Teleport-the-hell-away" as soon as I show up on his scanner.
Simple, don't show up on his scanner until the moment you kill him.

Doc Roc
2009-09-24, 11:39 PM
In before Eldariel!

Basically, the gist of the answer to your question is that strictly speaking, no such archetype exists or can exist until you start kicking out some of the flying buttresses that support arcane power. Fighters, by default, have zero access to the one thing that matters in D&D, which is the action economy.

@G:
Not showing up on a wizard's scanner? You'll need, at the least, vecna-blooded, superior invisibility, and some way to chaff true-sight as well as touch sight. I'm not talking hypothetically, by the way. Ask some of my players.

Godskook
2009-09-24, 11:41 PM
Pretty sure you can't ready the same maneuver twice.

You're right, maneuvers can't be readied more than once.

That's why warblade needs to be the base for this build. Grab either martial study or levels in Mo9 to adjust for the missing discipline. Between Sudden Leap and the Shadow Hand one, you should be golden.

olentu
2009-09-25, 12:09 AM
Just don't teleport too near the caster. That would be quite a bad idea.

Grumman
2009-09-25, 01:42 AM
@G:
Not showing up on a wizard's scanner? You'll need, at the least, vecna-blooded, superior invisibility, and some way to chaff true-sight as well as touch sight. I'm not talking hypothetically, by the way. Ask some of my players.
As your players are apparently more paranoid than we ever were, perhaps you can describe the threat we're up against. Assuming that the fighter has the Shadow creature template (total concealment anywhere except full sun or a Daylight spell), the Darkstalker feat, HiPS and maxed hide and move silently scores and is free to initiate combat at a time of his choosing, by what methods would your unaware party detect his presence?

tyckspoon
2009-09-25, 01:51 AM
As your players are apparently more paranoid than we ever were, perhaps you can describe the threat we're up against. Assuming that the fighter has the Shadow creature template (total concealment anywhere except full sun or a Daylight spell), the Darkstalker feat, HiPS and maxed hide and move silently scores and is free to initiate combat at a time of his choosing, by what methods would your unaware party detect his presence?

Touchsight and Mindsight still work, and will typically detect from a range where most characters have a lot of trouble doing anything useful. Touchsight you might be able to pass on, as it's a Psionic power and won't normally be in effect, although the Wizard can Limited Wish for it if he really needs to have it. Mindsight is something to consider when dealing with any spellcaster, however, since it's available to most of them for a 1-level class dip and a feat. I think Mind Blank covers it, tho, which means it's at least relatively easy (if expensive) to counter.

SurlySeraph
2009-09-25, 02:07 AM
Fighter Standstill lockdown (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you) can work, as can a boomerang BC build. but its highly dependent on gear.

This, plus at least 6 levels in Horizon Walker (for Dimension Door every 1d4 rounds) can make a decent non-ToB mage slayer. Look at the Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415) build for ideas.

But like for everything melee-related, Tome of Battle is your best bet.

You also want items that help you do what the mage's spells let him do. Wings of Flying, the Belt of Battle, and Anklets of Translocation are useful for making sure he can't just fly away/ cast more than you can attack/ trap you somewhere. I'm sure other people can think of more useful items.

And do make sure to take Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, and whatever that other mage-slaying feat is.

Doc Roc
2009-09-25, 02:13 AM
Touchsight and Mindsight still work, and will typically detect from a range where most characters have a lot of trouble doing anything useful. Touchsight you might be able to pass on, as it's a Psionic power and won't normally be in effect, although the Wizard can Limited Wish for it if he really needs to have it. Mindsight is something to consider when dealing with any spellcaster, however, since it's available to most of them for a 1-level class dip and a feat. I think Mind Blank covers it, tho, which means it's at least relatively easy (if expensive) to counter.

Mindblank does not cover it under most GMs I've played with. My choices would be:

Touchsight
Mindsight
Soulsight, from bastion of lost souls
Bag of flour spam
Daylight spell or similar light effect
Using natural light to illuminate my tower, because I'm diabolical.

Or maybe just practical. :|
But probably diabolical since I'd almost certainly set up kip on an outer plane where it's day all the time. Why not? Paranoid and crazy good aligned wizard, remember?

I favor a more proactive approach:
Ignore him because I can't take HP damage, and kill all his friends brutally, then travel through time and masquerade as his father. Alternatively, cycle temporal regression until he no longer exists.

Killer Angel
2009-09-25, 02:16 AM
Oh, I really miss this thread... :smallcool:


This, plus at least 6 levels in Horizon Walker (for Dimension Door every 1d4 rounds) can make a decent non-ToB mage slayer.

mmm... I'm not sure.
The horizon walker (tripper) is very good, and is useful for caster slaying... if you work in combo with someone else. Otherwise, you DD near the wiz. but you cannot act, and your target goes away.
One vs. one, it's almost useless.

tyckspoon
2009-09-25, 02:20 AM
Oh, I really miss this thread... :smallcool:



mmm... I'm not sure.
The horizon walker (tripper) is very good, and is useful for caster slaying... if you work in combo with someone else. Otherwise, you DD near the wiz. but you cannot act, and your target goes away.
One vs. one, it's almost useless.

In theory, that's why you have the Mage Slayer feats plus as much of a Lockdown build as you can afford; if you're doing it right, you should be getting attacks of opportunity for just about anything the wizard can do. It might not stop him from moving away, but you can stop him from getting away unharmed. If nothing else, you've made the Wizard the reactive party for at least one round, which can be claimed as a moral victory. (Your actual approach to the Wizard should be an exotic movement mode, like Flight or Earth Glide if you can get it, with your movement rate boosted as high as you can acquire. Dimension Door is more for hopping out of the Solid Fog/Forcage trap/past the Wall of Force/other field-control effects the Wizard will probably try on you.)

In practice, there's just too many options to deal with, and it's really quite hard to interrupt Swift/Immediate actions.

Killer Angel
2009-09-25, 03:30 AM
In theory, that's why you have the Mage Slayer feats plus as much of a Lockdown build as you can afford; if you're doing it right, you should be getting attacks of opportunity for just about anything the wizard can do.

The fact is: if you stay Core, you don't have mage slayer, etc.
If you go out of core, then the wizard will have craft contingency, celerity, etc.
I agree that this build, for a "fighter", is more effective than others (and gains that "moral victory"), but against a well build mage, isn't still sufficient.

Bang
2009-09-25, 04:09 AM
The most effective character I've seen in play at this role was an Arcane Hunter Ranger/Monk/Horizon Walker. There were probably some Fighter levels thrown in, too.

Despite being a non-caster, the character was actually very effective in play.
He made liberal use of wand bracelets and wand chambers to access SpC effects.

In combat, he'd typically use a Ki Focus Magebane Mancatcher to use a stun attempt, initiate a high-modifier grapple and deliver Favored Power Attacks all at once on top of Rhino Rush-ed or Lion's Charge-ed Leap Attacks. If his target ever teleported away, he could follow with Sun School and repeat most of the process in the same round. He was pretty scary damn against arcane casters, though we started to see him slipping when we finished the game around level 15.

I'm pretty sure he had Pierce Magical Concealment too. That or some way of dodging Invisibility, Mirror Image and Blink.

Out of combat, he had Darkstalker and access to SpC ranger wands, which helped detect his targets and approach them. There are ways around them, but unless you're playing in a bizzare CO-land game, don't expect to ever see them.

As far as a melee class specifically designed to fight spellcasters, Psychic Warrior, Swordsage and Duskblade are probably your best bets if you want to avoid full casters/manifesters. The Ranger also does a decent job once Spell Compendium and the Completes are factored in.

If I were building for this, I'd probably go Ranger 1/Ardent 8/Ilithid Slayer 10. Essentially full manifesting, Favored Power Attack, built-in Mind Blank, good skills, access to ranger spells via wands.

Doc Roc
2009-09-25, 04:31 AM
3rd level powers (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Touchsight) from the SRD are now bizarro-CO land? :smallconfused:

olentu
2009-09-25, 04:40 AM
Er in reference to Sun School are you saying that one used the Flash of Sunset part of the Sun School tactical feat to teleport next to a wizard with the spell compendium in play. That seems quite strange that it worked (as I gather) well and consistently unless the wizard had many teleporting minions or banned abjuration or something.

Bang
2009-09-25, 04:43 AM
3rd level powers (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Touchsight) from the SRD are now bizarro-CO land? :smallconfused:If all - or even a significant fraction - of casters have that specific power active at all times, the game involves far more optimization than I've ever seen off of internet forums. Even when playing with people I know frequent BG and 339.

Fishy
2009-09-25, 05:13 AM
Ring of invisibility, Max ranks in Sleight of Hand, Trickery Devotion.

Trickery Devotion creates an illusory duplicate that looks exactly like you: IE, invisible. It's also an illusion, and not really there, so True Seeing sees right through it. At level 10, you can perform skill checks through your double, such as the DC 40 check to rob a guy as a free action.

Suddenly, all of the Wizard's clothes and possessions teleport 5 feet to the left.

Johel
2009-09-25, 05:40 AM
Necklace of AMF :
1800 x 6 x 12 = 129.600 gp
Lasts for about 2 hours.
Should be enough to kill a wizard.
If it's not, waste a standard action to reactivate.

Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Grapple

Basically, look friendly, activate AMF during surprise round, grapple, kill slowly.
Yes, it's basic, it's useless in a real fight/duel but we gotta find a way to make Fighter useful, right ? :smallfrown:

riddles
2009-09-25, 05:47 AM
If I were building for this, I'd probably go Ranger 1/Ardent 8/Ilithid Slayer 10. Essentially full manifesting, Favored Power Attack, built-in Mind Blank, good skills, access to ranger spells via wands.

i love this build, though my preference at the moment is to add one or two levels of psychic warrior to get expanded knowledge schism and concealing amphora, greater.

lord_khaine
2009-09-25, 05:47 AM
That would be a bit more useful with a spiked chain, to trip any running wizard in the case where you dont get a surprise round.

And even more usefull with Thicket of Blades Stance, to stop the wizard from tumbling away.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-25, 05:57 AM
Yeah. It's called "something that you haven't made yet in homebrew".

Lightning Warrior is enough.

olentu
2009-09-25, 06:11 AM
Lightning Warrior is enough.

Nah if we are talking about a wizard I don't think the lightning warrior can overcome the advantage of the wizards familiar and ability to specialize.

Willis888
2009-09-25, 07:55 AM
Bad Will saving throws are going to plague any fighter build, and that is a weak point most casters can exploit.

High monk levels for spell immunity, movement speed, and Imp. Evasion + 1 level of Rogue at the end for a Use Magic Item skill point dump + 1 Paladin level for armor, weapons and huge saving throw bonuses. But I guess this counts more as a Monk build rather than a heavy fighter build.

The Arcane Archer 16/Paladin 4/Sorcerer 20 I've played has brought down less paranoid mages in droves. Most known spells are buffs/wards, the worst saving throw is +42 in a world where rolling a 1 is not auto-fail, attack bonus buffs to +74 with self-cast True Strike, Armor Class buffs to the high 60's iirc with decent gear and Divine Shield, and every arrow gets a bonus of 15 Divine damage with Divine Might. With Haste + Rapid Shot, that is 6 shots per round for a minimum of 90 Divine damage plus physical, and magic items can find your target and get you to within shooting range. But again, this is not a pure-heavy fighter but a 50% fighter/mage.

Ernir
2009-09-25, 08:20 AM
It may be next to impossible to prevent a highish level caster from escaping, but except on paper this is less of an obstacle then Fly. You just need an anti-mage build that isn't a one/day trick pony. Assuming such a thing is possible in the first place.

(Though on a side note Celerity should still be banned by any decent DM, or inflict a real consequence like level drain....)

Good point. If we lower the standard from caster-killer to caster-defeater, things are a whole lot less hopeless.

And yes, Celerity has to be the most broken of all the immediate-action counters...

Eldariel
2009-09-25, 08:27 AM
The Arcane Archer 16/Paladin 4/Sorcerer 20 I've played has brought down less paranoid mages in droves. Most known spells are buffs/wards, the worst saving throw is +42 in a world where rolling a 1 is not auto-fail, attack bonus buffs to +74 with self-cast True Strike, Armor Class buffs to the high 60's iirc with decent gear and Divine Shield, and every arrow gets a bonus of 15 Divine damage with Divine Might. With Haste + Rapid Shot, that is 6 shots per round for a minimum of 90 Divine damage plus physical, and magic items can find your target and get you to within shooting range. But again, this is not a pure-heavy fighter but a 50% fighter/mage.

...isn't that a level 40 characters? As in Epic? In a world with Epic Spellcasting? Where it's easy to get 4000 HP and AC 300?


Anyways, everything that needs to be said pretty much has been said. Not gonna happen, best you can hope is to kill a few casters who don't care for their own safety and even that's a hurdle.

Best way to go about it is to pack sufficient defenses to make it takes a while for the caster to kill you, and sufficient offense to one-shot kill them from any position if one of your attacks connects, at range or in melee, with sufficient caster disruption AoOs to screw them if you get next to them and resiliency to Dispelling (basically, no item/constant spell reliance).

And if you want to do all that martially, you're already pretty much occupied for 20 levels. If possible, you should also add any action-screwing abilities like Immediate Action attacks and such to the build if possible.


Psionics and Gishes are much better at this, but make no mistake, killing a straight caster is still harder than killing a Gish or a Slayer. And yeah, the problems in killing casters have already been sufficiently outlined.

woodenbandman
2009-09-25, 08:32 AM
You need to use mage tricks to kill a mage. The best thing I know of is Extraordinary Spell Aim Antimagic Field (Just ignore the stupid ruling that AMF doesn't block line of effect). But for that you need to be a caster.

What you could also do is be an Arcane Archer and attack them with an aptitude harpoon with Antimagic field channeled through it.

Keld Denar
2009-09-25, 09:20 AM
Arcane Archer you say?

Bard1/Pal2/Wizard5/ArcArch2/SubChord2/AbjChamp5/Spellsword1/SacEx2

Better if you can swing Harmoneous Knight Pally in there, and go

Pal2/Sorc6/ArcArch2/SubChord2/AbjChamp5/Spellsword1/SacEx2

Pew pew, I shoots the AMF ats yous!

BorisTheblade
2009-09-25, 12:38 PM
If you are worried about them teleporting away, four levels in Hellbreaker from Fiendish Codex II will fix that. You get Stowaway, which allows you to follow any conjuration(teleportation) as an immediate action.

Plus, depending on how strict your game is, the World of Warcraft books have some very very excellent anti-caster melee feats/classes if I remember correctly.

Some WoW feats to lookup:
Spellbreaker (More magic and mayhem)
Feedback (More magic and mayhem)
Spell Crusher (Lands of Conflict)
Spell Eliminator (Lands of Conflict)
Epic Spellbreaker [Epic](Shadows & Light)
Spell Obliterator [Epic] (Shadows & Light)
Ranged Spellbreaker (Shadows & Light)

Normal D&D
Spellcasting Harrier [EPIC] (Draconomicon or EL)

On a side note. I have been considering making a PrC based on the Mord Sith from the Sword of Truth novels by Goodkind.

Totally Guy
2009-09-25, 12:55 PM
What is Suel Arcanamach like? I didn't think he sounded so hot myself. Is he any good?

Keld Denar
2009-09-25, 03:29 PM
Suel Arcanamach has a niche. The biggest advantage of it is that you can squeeze in other abilities with it without feeling as much like you are losing out on more. Its spells are automatically extended (Abjurations double extended with AbjChamp), and once you get to Abjurant Champion 5, nearlly undispellable. It can actually make some fun PrCs viable, like Rage Mage. Dispelling Strike is ok, but doesn't scale real well. You typically never see people take more than the first 4 levels of it, usually splashing in AbjChamp5 and then something like Spellsword1 or more to finish off.

The only real lament on spellcasting is that you don't get any Conjourations, which means you have to get all of your teleportation from items. Still, there are tons of fun Abjurations, Transmutations, and Illusions to take up your spell slots.

Diamondeye
2009-09-25, 07:49 PM
In practice it's a lot easier than people are making it sound, although not easy by any means. As a practical matter the DM is probably not going to go all "Batman" on you, and you'll have a party with you. Some DMs won't allow things like nerveskitter or celerity, and in any case this won't always be happening with 9th level spells available.

If you happen to be fighting another PLAYER, his divinations won't help him unless A) you already know you're going to attack him and B) you tell him that, and hopefully the DM will ban or nerf a few select spells

There's a number of ways to do it. Swordsage is a good thing to add because it A) boosts will saves and B) allows you to get next to the caster, at least once. There's a few others, like Horizon Walker that help and a number of other methods as well, but don't worry about the "it's hopeless, BATMAN!" thing. As a practical matter that generally won't be the case and you won't be alone. You might even luck out and its a sorcerer!

KellKheraptis
2009-09-25, 07:50 PM
50 feet once an encounter isn't going to help a whole lot.

Best bet is probably a gish build. Wizard/warblade/jadephoenixmage/abjurant champion, wizard/fighter/abjurant champion/eldritch knight, something along those lines. However, I haven't leeched gish build knowledge as much as other stuff, so...

/cast summon Eldariel
/cast summon Keld

Gish build with it's own antimagic field and abusing Spellguarding Rings, since you are your own ally and as such immune to your own spells :P

olentu
2009-09-25, 08:08 PM
Gish build with it's own antimagic field and abusing Spellguarding Rings, since you are your own ally and as such immune to your own spells :P

Sorry but,



Effect: In order for them to function, both spellguard rings must be worn—the gold ring by a spellcaster, the bronze one by anyone else.

Keld Denar
2009-09-25, 08:22 PM
Spellguard Rings don't work with AMF. Spellguard Rings give immunity, which is a very clearly defined in game terms (Unbeatable SR). Antimatic Field does not check SR unless you are summoned. Thus, AMF is essentially SR:No, and is not valid to be made immune from with Spellguard Rings. A creature affected by the Spellguard partner's AMF would be completely antimagiced, just the same as a non-Spellguard partnered creature.

Sorry, your tactic doesn't work...try Extraordinary Spell Aim or a level of Archmage or Cheater of Mystra.

KellKheraptis
2009-09-25, 08:24 PM
Spellguard Rings don't work with AMF. Spellguard Rings give immunity, which is a very clearly defined in game terms (Unbeatable SR). Antimatic Field does not check SR unless you are summoned. Thus, AMF is essentially SR:No, and is not valid to be made immune from with Spellguard Rings. A creature affected by the Spellguard partner's AMF would be completely antimagiced, just the same as a non-Spellguard partnered creature.

Sorry, your tactic doesn't work...try Extraordinary Spell Aim or a level of Archmage or Cheater of Mystra.

Blah...see what happens when you think outside the box, kids? Anyhow, best cure for a mage = a mage with higher initiative and daze immunity :)

EDIT : Oh, and never being surprised is nice too.

olentu
2009-09-25, 08:32 PM
I would argue that it is possibly not that clearly defined but it does not matter in either case.

Kantolin
2009-09-26, 12:48 AM
Generally, your average mage won't have every possible defense readied at once.

Of course, if you become (in)famous with your tactics, you may find mages specifically ensuring they counter you, which can rain on your parade as about everything in D&D has a counter. Also, some spells (namely celerity) are nigh-impossible to stop if permitted into your campaign.

Regardless, preventing defensive casting and 5ft steps is generally a solution to most mages. Mage Slayer is pretty much the only solution for defensive casting (Well, that I'm aware of, outside of possibly readying an action). To deal with 5ft steps there are a variety of options, four of which are: a knight(PHB2), a Crusader(ToB), a spiked chain, or weilding a reach weapon and armour spikes/unarmed strike (The last two prevent them from simply 5ft stepping away from you and casting freely). Tripping or Stand Still can help as well.

Two major defenses that most spellcasters (In particular wizards) tend to utilize are flight and teleportation - these become more and more frequent the higher level you are. You'll need some method of getting to them quickly and dealing with both flight and teleportation - the easiest solution is to earn teleporation yourself (through items, class ability, spells of your own, whatever). Flight of your own is also a helpful option, as is a method of getting dimensional anchor (perhaps a ring of spell storage?).

From here, it depends on what you're up against, but it's not a guarantee that they'll have any particular option (most solutions then come from magic items of sorts). Of course, from the wizard's side, there's no guarantee that a particular option will work (barring a few exceptions).

...well, then dealing a lot of damage is important, but that's particularly easy.

For example, if you render yourself immune to dominate person in any of a dozen fashions, a wizard might attempt dominate, have it not work, and get screwed. If you don't, however, the wizard might get off a dominate.

But that's likely to be good enough. You won't be able to stop every possible conceptual wizard, but you'll probably be able to beat most of the ones you'll run into. Try to have an emergency backup you don't let on about in case you become too popular. :P

Aquillion
2009-09-26, 01:02 AM
The basic problem is that even if the typical mage can't have every single spell readied at once, they're still going to have vastly more options on hand than any 3.5 fighter class (outside of the ones specifically designed to be like mages, such as the ToB -- 4e's solution, essentially. Even ToB classes tend to have fewer options than arcane classes, though.) And, generally, if the opposing caster is competent, they'll have selected their spells to cover a very wide range of options -- making it very, very hard to cover them all.

Meanwhile, even if you're anti-mage focused, you will only have a few options. You can get lots of protections against debuffs, but that won't help you if they alter the battlefield so you can't reach them. You can get protections from summons, but that won't help you from instant conjuration attacks, or instant death attacks, or stat draining... a decent-level wizard can easily have enough spell slots to cover each of those attack methods sufficiently to kill you, and he only has to negate your one or two offensive tricks (generally, get really close or throw/shoot, both of which are real easy to negate).

There is a reason why people say that the best way to kill a wizard is to be a wizard.

With that said, the Psychic Warrior expresses a good line of thought to take -- yes, he's sort of a gish, but his important abilities are generally not too wizard-ish. He can cover ground very quickly, even teleporting past terrain-alteration without wasting his action, and he has decent capability to protect himself from the worst of the wizard's lose-instantly effects. The Swordsage does even better at this.

But you're still at a disadvantage, because wizards just get a broader range of effects, and, therefore, a broader range of options -- changes are, they're going to be the one outflanking you in the capability-negation race, not the other way around.

Myrmex
2009-09-26, 01:57 AM
You're right, maneuvers can't be readied more than once.

That's why warblade needs to be the base for this build. Grab either martial study or levels in Mo9 to adjust for the missing discipline. Between Sudden Leap and the Shadow Hand one, you should be golden.

Where does it say that?

Count Dravda
2009-09-26, 02:29 AM
I didn't read the whole thing, but my money's on sniping. Hit him with a bow: they have obscene range increments (bow hunters! Is it actually possible to hit a moving target accurately from 100 feet? 200? 600 if you're good?). He CAN always retreat, but if he has something he's trying to do (assist in battle or defend a location, for example), that's out of the picture.

Rangers and Assassins both get some pretty cool spells for sniping, including one that allows you to sneak attack (and therefore death attack) from any range (IIRC). You can't fight what you can't see: if you get the drop on him, you might be able to...uh...drop him before he causes too much trouble, forcing him to spend precious actions casting spells to find you. A viable tactic would be to hit him in the surprise round, hope you win initiative, and then just ready an action to disrupt his castings each round with an arrow to the gut. However, all this goes out the window if he's expecting an attack and has, say, a Contingency set to Teleport/Plane Shift him away if he takes damage.

Thoughts?

-Count Dravda