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taltamir
2009-09-28, 10:03 PM
So, remove curse removes the belt of gender change...
What do you think happens if someone is pregnant and is then hit by a remove curse by someone?

EDIT: Actually, this can extend to other spells... baleful polymorph anyone? druid shapeshifting? wizard casting polymorph on herself?

KillianHawkeye
2009-09-28, 10:06 PM
Ugh....

Did I REALLY need a specific reason to rule that a man wearing a reverse gender belt couldn't get pregnant?? Did I??

:smallsigh::smallsigh:

Mando Knight
2009-09-28, 10:08 PM
It's magic. No one here knows. Depends on how the DM wants to play it.

Does it fail entirely? Do we have an M-Preg situation? Is the spell delayed until the end of the term? Does the baby go splat? Is the curse made permanent?

Personally, I'd just say that impregnation is impossible for a gender-changed subject for the duration of the curse. Avoids the issues altogether.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-28, 10:10 PM
So, remove curse removes the belt of gender change...
What do you think happens if someone is pregnant and is then hit by a remove curse by someone?

Don't worry, Pregancy is a curse you removed it. :smallbiggrin:

deuxhero
2009-09-28, 10:13 PM
I never felt like quoting Rumiko Takahashi before...

Though IIRC changlings can't swap gender if they are pregnant.

Green Bean
2009-09-28, 10:14 PM
Silly people, everyone knows the male body can sustain a fetus. If the internet has taught me anything, it's that a man is perfectly capable of giving birth even under the flimsiest of justifications. All you need is an awkward, badly written relationship with another male character, possibly but not necessarily the father. Add a few glurge-y scenes where you both worry about the baby, and you're golden. It's a romance that will stand the test of time. kill me now

taltamir
2009-09-28, 10:14 PM
I never felt like quoting Rumiko Takahashi before...

Though IIRC changlings can't swap gender if they are pregnant.

Sounds familiar, which one of her comics is it from?

Actually, this can extend to other spells... baleful polymorph anyone? druid shapeshifting? wizard casting polymorph on herself?

deuxhero
2009-09-28, 10:18 PM
When presured for an answer for such a question her answer was "I don't think about it and neither should you"

SparkMandriller
2009-09-28, 10:21 PM
So you're who the BoEF was written for, are you?

Glimbur
2009-09-28, 10:24 PM
Related question: what effect does Remove Disease have on a fetus? Is it a parasite?

holywhippet
2009-09-28, 10:26 PM
Sounds familiar, which one of her comics is it from?


She was talking about Ranma 1/2 - since Ranma changes genders when splashed with water it raised the question about female Ranma getting pregnant.

Sergeantbrother
2009-09-28, 10:28 PM
Sounds like an abortion to me.

Ormur
2009-09-28, 10:33 PM
I'd just say the fetus would become a part of your body like a Fetus in fetu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetus_in_fetu). If it's a horror setting then that would probably have some nasty consequences a la Stephen King.

Mikeavelli
2009-09-28, 10:33 PM
For a certain interpretation of the spell, Remove curse might not only get out of the pregnancy even if magic wasn't involved in the first place, but might also annul your marriage!

Ravens_cry
2009-09-28, 10:34 PM
Well. . . I would rule it as a man being pregnant. With cure spells at the ready and admantium scalpels in the event of damage reduction on the part of the pregnant one, it could be done quite safely. Healing magic would have to be applied as soon as the baby and placenta is removed, as men don't have the same mechanism for stopping the flow of blood from the blood vessel connected to the placenta. I would urge the remove curse to be applied after the baby is born. There is no statistical changes from being a woman, and a natural birth would be far less disruptive and risky to both the child and the mother.
That's my thought anyway.

taltamir
2009-09-28, 10:34 PM
Sounds like an abortion to me.

maybe, or maybe for shape shifting the fetus is polymorphed into whatever shape the mother switches to (aka, a baby rabbit if she turns into a rabbit)... while with gender swap, maybe it just remains inside... take some con damage due to it attaching to a random organ, maybe have a percent chance of it dying.

Paulus
2009-09-28, 10:35 PM
Personally, I'd just say that impregnation is impossible for a gender-changed subject for the duration of the curse. Avoids the issues altogether.

This.

Or if you consider that it is magical and the entire effect was produced by a magical change and therefore upheld by magic, if a pregnancy occurs, then when the curse is removed all of the magic goes too, and everything that goes with it. but, that is because the entire nature of problem was magical.

Now. What will really bake your noodle is, what happens when a pregnant woman puts on a belt of gender change?

Ravens_cry
2009-09-28, 10:37 PM
Now. What will really bake your noodle is, what happens when a pregnant woman puts on a belt of gender change?
Again, pregnant man.
My noodle is unbaked, Oracle. And those cookies look awful.

ericgrau
2009-09-28, 10:38 PM
Related question: what effect does Remove Disease have on a fetus? Is it a parasite?

Only if you believe some astoundingly biased high-school videos. No, it's a million miles away from being a parasite, and it wasn't exactly a genius idea to say "Hey, the mothers body is [voluntarily] feeding the baby. That makes the baby like a parasite."

As for the original topic, the result is a reflex save vs. a flying DMG. I'm glad this topic has stayed as civil as it has. But more seriously the kid wouldn't survive without the necessary life support organs. A parasite would though.

taltamir
2009-09-28, 10:45 PM
This.

Or if you consider that it is magical and the entire effect was produced by a magical change and therefore upheld by magic, if a pregnancy occurs, then when the curse is removed all of the magic goes too, and everything that goes with it. but, that is because the entire nature of problem was magical.

Now. What will really bake your noodle is, what happens when a pregnant woman puts on a belt of gender change?

I mention three separate transformations for a pregnant woman already (baleful polymorph, druid shape shift, and polymorph)... so belt of gender change doesn't surprise me...

taltamir
2009-09-28, 10:48 PM
As for the original topic, the result is a reflex save vs. a flying DMG. I'm glad this topic has stayed as civil as it has. But more seriously the kid wouldn't survive without the necessary life support organs. A parasite would though.

Fetuses produce their own life support organs. They just need access to blood vessels, which they create via hormone secretions. The uterous is a "safe place" for it, but fetuses are known to implant in ANY organ... look up "ectopic pregnancy". It is lethal, naturally.
Also some people are born with parts of their own placenta implanted into their bodies, causing horrible deformations (it is near impossible to remove in some places)

Ravens_cry
2009-09-28, 10:52 PM
Only if you believe some astoundingly biased high-school videos. No, it's a million miles away from being a parasite, and it wasn't exactly a genius idea to say "Hey, the mothers body is [voluntarily] feeding the baby. That makes the baby like a parasite."

As for the original topic, the result is a reflex save vs. a flying DMG. I'm glad this topic has stayed as civil as it has. But more seriously the kid wouldn't survive without the necessary life support organs. A parasite would though.
The baby would still have the sack and placenta, these are formed during pregnancy and are not there constantly in the uterus. There actually has been a successful case of a baby growing outside the womb, both for mother and child (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1050942/Miracle-baby-Billy-grew-outside-mothers-womb.html).
*semi ninja-ed!*

Shpadoinkle
2009-09-28, 10:53 PM
The way I'd rule it is this: A man who becomes a woman via magic CAN get pregnant. If she's returned to being a man before the pragnancy ends, there's no negative effect on the mother or the baby. The baby simply exists in limbo (not Limbo the plane of chaos, just a nebulous state of semi-existance) until (and if) the "mother" becomes female again, at which point she's at the same point in the pregnancy as she was right before she became male.

It works the same way for people who were born female.

Ravens_cry
2009-09-28, 10:54 PM
The way I'd rule it is this: A man who becomes a woman via magic CAN get pregnant. If she's returned to being a man before the pragnancy ends, there's no negative effect on the mother or the baby. The baby simply exists in limbo (not Limbo the plane of chaos, just a nebulous state of semi-existance) until (and if) the "mother" becomes female again, at which point she's at the same point in the pregnancy as she was right before she became male.

It works the same way for people who were born female.
But that would be. . .
Schroedinger's Prego!:smallbiggrin:

Paulus
2009-09-28, 10:55 PM
Again, pregnant man.
My noodle is unbaked, Oracle. And those cookies look awful.

No cookies for you then. :P


I mention three separate transformations for a pregnant woman already (baleful polymorph, druid shape shift, and polymorph)... so belt of gender change doesn't surprise me...

yeah but those are all magical transitions which basically keep the same general type to type basis. Unless you meant if the poly-morphed into a different gender of the species? In which case it would still always be upheld by magic. So like all of her equipment it would meld into her body, and when she changes back, the pregnancy is as normal.

Following this logic..., I'd like to think the pregnancy remained with the woman and returned when the curse was removed! Because that is just flowers and sunshine and how I'd like it to turn out.

On a side note: Anyone remember that movie where the guy was a real jerk to women all his life and he died and would have gone to hell except they gave him once chance to find one girl who really loved him- So he came back to life, only, as a woman?

taltamir
2009-09-28, 10:55 PM
The way I'd rule it is this: A man who becomes a woman via magic CAN get pregnant. If she's returned to being a man before the pragnancy ends, there's no negative effect on the mother or the baby. The baby simply exists in limbo (not Limbo the plane of chaos, just a nebulous state of semi-existance) until (and if) the "mother" becomes female again, at which point she's at the same point in the pregnancy as she was right before she became male.

It works the same way for people who were born female.

nice... it is like how your clothes are subsumed into the spell...

ericgrau
2009-09-28, 10:56 PM
Fetuses produce their own life support organs. They just need access to blood vessels, which they create via hormone secretions. The uterous is a "safe place" for it, but fetuses are known to implant in ANY organ... look up "ectopic pregnancy". It is lethal, naturally.
Also some people are born with parts of their own placenta implanted into their bodies, causing horrible deformations (it is near impossible to remove in some places)
Okay, I looked it up. This is the first thing I found:


Overview
An ectopic pregnancy is an abnormal pregnancy that occurs outside the womb (uterus). The baby cannot survive.


The linked story says it is one of two cases ever, and it was a struggle. Just look at the picture and caption, for example. There is also some chemical communication between the mother's body and the baby. I dunno if a male body is equipped for that, though it might be.

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2009-09-28, 10:57 PM
I'm creepily reminded of Total Recall.....

Faleldir
2009-09-28, 10:57 PM
But that would be. . .
Schroedinger's Prego!:smallbiggrin:

You have no idea what "Shroedinger's cat" means, do you?

Ravens_cry
2009-09-28, 10:57 PM
No cookies for you then. :P

Really, they did. They looked like they were made out of plastic or covered in wax, which they probably were, it being movie food and all.

taltamir
2009-09-28, 10:58 PM
you know, Shroedinger lived with his wife AND his mistress together.

Paulus
2009-09-28, 10:58 PM
I'm creepily reminded of Total Recall.....

Why when you can be reminded of 1994's gift to film goers with "Junior"?

Look away! LOOK AWAY!

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w269/geniegr/asfilm/1994junior.jpg

Ravens_cry
2009-09-28, 10:58 PM
You have no idea what "Shroedinger's cat" means, do you?
What makes you say that?

Why when you can be reminded of 1994's gift to film goers with "Junior"
I loved that movie, definably the better of Arnies comedy offerings.

Paulus
2009-09-28, 10:59 PM
Really, they did. They looked like they were made out of plastic or covered in wax, which they probably were, it being movie food and all.

Yeah but they made you feel better, like, whoa better.


What makes you say that?

I loved that movie, definably the better of Arnies comedy offerings.
Anything is better than End of Days...

Ravens_cry
2009-09-28, 11:02 PM
Yeah but they made yo feel better, like, whoa better.
You could feed Graham Cracker crumbs to Neo/Keanu Reeves and he'd go 'Woah'.:smallamused:

Paulus
2009-09-28, 11:05 PM
You could feed Graham Cracker crumbs to Neo/Keanu Reeves and he'd go 'Woah'.:smallamused:

BOGUS!


http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u127/6854377/bill-and-ted.jpg

Yukitsu
2009-09-28, 11:05 PM
When this came up, I think one person was trying to differ to FATAL. I'm not sure if that's where the DM got the ruling ultimately, but I do remember I ultimately wasn't dispelled, and as such it never panned out.

I do think his ruling was that the child died, and unless they could get my character a replacement vas deferens quick, that'd be the last of that bloodline. Oh, and the biggest damn cramp ever known to elf kind.

Samus42
2009-09-28, 11:08 PM
According to the BOEF, which is the closest thing that could answer that it states that if you were to change genders, one way or another the baby would die and you would have to do a will save to see if you don't become infertile.
the sad part is about this is that I had to look this up thanks to an episode with obscuring mist, reincarnation, and a one night fling with a barbarian.

Fiendish_Dire_Moose
2009-09-28, 11:43 PM
the sad part is about this is that I had to look this up thanks to an episode with obscuring mist, reincarnation, and a one night fling with a barbarian.
You and I share a common shame. Well, for me it's not shame.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2009-09-29, 01:19 AM
i think i'd dip into whitewolf and the werewolf breeding rules for this irregardless of the system. If your pregnant in a given form your stuck in that form until you give birth (ie dispell or remove curse fails) or in the result of you successfully changing form back into you natural form the fetus is aborted not from the new forms inability to support the fetus, but from the trauma of a physical transformation from which the fetus was incabable of being protected.

This would apply to male, female, shapeshifted, polymorphed, wildshaped etc. . .

I would make exceptions for dragons as those things can apparently breed succefully with anything and be just fine.

Signmaker
2009-09-29, 01:38 AM
Rumiko Takahashi would like a word with you.

Burley
2009-09-29, 07:32 AM
So, remove curse removes the belt of gender change...
What do you think happens if someone is pregnant and is then hit by a remove curse by someone?


This is how Inevitables are made. Some jerk is all "Heh, I'mma be a guy with a baby, hyuck."
The baby gets so angry that it bursts from the womb. "Autotots, Maximize!" Vreet-vruut-vrant-vreeet. Now it's a Pegataur, the centaur with wings. Part Machine, Part baby. All Business. Coming this fall.

Philaenas
2009-09-29, 07:47 AM
Only if you believe some astoundingly biased high-school videos. No, it's a million miles away from being a parasite, and it wasn't exactly a genius idea to say "Hey, the mothers body is [voluntarily] feeding the baby. That makes the baby like a parasite."

Actually, isn't a baby technically nothing but a parasite? As its presence is cerainly not benefitting the host body and even drains resources from it. The immune system even has to be held in check to not outright reject/kill the fruit (a wonderfully intriguing mechanism).

daggaz
2009-09-29, 08:01 AM
Actually, isn't a baby technically nothing but a parasite? As its presence is cerainly not benefitting the host body and even drains resources from it. The immune system even has to be held in check to not outright reject/kill the fruit (a wonderfully intriguing mechanism).

Nothing but a "parasite" which happens to contain half the hosts genes, and half the genes of the mate which the host almost certainly spent a vast majority of their resources attracting in the first place, simply so the offspring would have the absolute best chances of passing the hosts (and mates) genes on to further generations, which on a purely physical level is the only purpose and reason for the host existing in the first place...

Sound like a parasite to you? A parasite is a foreign species (no sharing of DNA) which can only exist by extracting energy from a host species, and for which the host receives little or no benefit. Nope. NOT a parasite. :smallmad:

For the OP, yeah im in the group that says you just cant get pregnant in the first place. If you are pregnant and wear the belt... you stay pregnant and the baby just continues growing no problems. Go too far past nine months, and the baby becomes a serious detriment to your health and will need to be surgically removed, via C-section. Of course, as soon as the little kicker is removed from your body, it promptly changes sex as its no longer under the effects of the curse. :smallamused:

Riffington
2009-09-29, 08:08 AM
For a certain interpretation of the spell, Remove curse might not only get out of the pregnancy even if magic wasn't involved in the first place, but might also annul your marriage!

And for a certain interpretation of "curse".

Philaenas
2009-09-29, 08:14 AM
Nothing but a "parasite" which happens to contain half the hosts genes, and half the genes of the mate which the host almost certainly spent a vast majority of their resources attracting in the first place, simply so the offspring would have the absolute best chances of passing the hosts (and mates) genes on to further generations, which on a purely physical level is the only purpose and reason for the host existing in the first place...

Sound like a parasite to you? A parasite is a foreign species (no sharing of DNA) which can only exist by extracting energy from a host species, and for which the host receives little or no benefit. Nope. NOT a parasite. :smallmad:

For the OP, yeah im in the group that says you just cant get pregnant in the first place. If you are pregnant and wear the belt... you stay pregnant and the baby just continues growing no problems. Go too far past nine months, and the baby becomes a serious detriment to your health and will need to be surgically removed, via C-section. Of course, as soon as the little kicker is removed from your body, it promptly changes sex as its no longer under the effects of the curse. :smallamused:

Hm, true, however during the time in the womb I would still describe it as technically a parasite as there is no direct benefit to the host. Taking the time after birth into consideration it would indeed not be classified as a parasite, as there is a chance of benefit in the case of passing on of the offspring's genes. This is actually quite on interesting topic when drifting to the point of reproduction actually being the multiplication of your own genes, which only ever benefits your genes as opposed to yourself (you are only taxed for resources)... The Selfish Gene and whatnot. However, this is going vastly off-topic.

daggaz
2009-09-29, 08:24 AM
Hm, true, however during the time in the womb I would still describe it as technically a parasite as there is no direct benefit to the host. Taking the time after birth into consideration it would indeed not be classified as a parasite, as there is a chance of benefit in the case of passing on of the offspring's genes. This is actually quite on interesting topic when drifting to the point of reproduction actually being the multiplication of your own genes, which only ever benefits your genes as opposed to yourself (you are only taxed for resources)... The Selfish Gene and whatnot. However, this is going vastly off-topic.

And I would say that is a rather un-scientific and narrow minded approach for looking at the situation. You have to take the entire system into account, not just the part that suits your definitions. As well, a parasite, by definition, is not the same species as the host.

Philaenas
2009-09-29, 08:32 AM
And I would say that is an incredibly un-scientific and narrow minded approach for looking at the situation. You have to take the entire system into account, not just the part that suits your definitions. As well, a parasite, by definition, does not share DNA with the host.

I agree and salute thee, good sir.

Another_Poet
2009-09-29, 09:02 AM
I agree and salute thee, good sir.

Seconded.

The only reason to call a fetus a parasite is to be provocative/shock value.

I think it is fair to ask whether the fetus counts as an organ system of the mother, however, which is at the crux of the gender change issue. If the fetus is an organ (part of the mother's body, not its own individual) then it is simply absorbed upon gender change or polymorph. If it is its own individual, i.e. a creature, then it has to be accounted for, even if it is simply killed by the process.

Unfortunately the question of whether a fetus is its own living individual is a major hotbutton political issue, one which forum rules state we are not to get into.

ap

taltamir
2009-09-29, 09:04 AM
Hm, true, however during the time in the womb I would still describe it as technically a parasite as there is no direct benefit to the host. Taking the time after birth into consideration it would indeed not be classified as a parasite, as there is a chance of benefit in the case of passing on of the offspring's genes. This is actually quite on interesting topic when drifting to the point of reproduction actually being the multiplication of your own genes, which only ever benefits your genes as opposed to yourself (you are only taxed for resources)... The Selfish Gene and whatnot. However, this is going vastly off-topic.

sure there is a benefit, its called reproduction.
The mother also strips her own bones of calcium to reinforce the babies, etc... things that don't happen in normal parasite - host relationships.
Furthermore, the fetus produces various hormones to help regulate the mother's bodily cycles and functions.
It is more of a symbiosis that a parasitic relationship


Unfortunately the question of whether a fetus is its own living individual is a major hotbutton political issue, one which forum rules state we are not to get into.
Yes, and worse, for the sake of magic and resurrection souls are a FACT in DnD. While their existence is debatable in reality. So this might also affect things.
I don't personally believe in souls, but I don't believe in magic either. For the sake of DnD I act as if I am certain they both exist. So what does that change in regards to fetus mother relationship? well, can an organ has its own soul? question in DnD, what about the various symbionts? bonds, etc?

random11
2009-09-29, 09:09 AM
So, remove curse removes the belt of gender change...
What do you think happens if someone is pregnant and is then hit by a remove curse by someone?


Didn't you read the fine print for the remove curse pills?
"Do not use if you are under 13, have back problems or pregnant. Might not use on 1st level commoners"

Philaenas
2009-09-29, 09:27 AM
Getting back to the issue at hand and trying to solve it. I would say the fetus dies at it is suddenly deprived of a placenta/womb supporting its life. Since the fetus is indeed a new individual that has to be accounted for, as mentioned previously, it will not just disappear and probably sort of remain in some bodily cavity created by its presence (maybe some fusion going on here depending on personal preference or whatnot). The now male person will sustain damage for having an unattended object (or whatever DnD uses to describe corpses) inside his body, maybe something with teleportation rules. I don't suppose rules for disease are supported. Anyway, my two cents. Damn, this is almost BoVD stuff.

Johel
2009-09-29, 09:33 AM
sure there is a benefit, its called reproduction.
The mother also strips her own bones of calcium to reinforce the babies, etc... things that don't happen in normal parasite - host relationships.
Furthermore, the fetus produces various hormones to help regulate the mother's bodily cycles and functions.
It is more of a symbiosis that a parasitic relationship

Hum... The way you write it, it's like she has control over the process.
Facts are, Baby's sucking Mommy's resources, without her having any control over it, much like a parasite does. Only difference is that they are of the same species, so it's not technically a parasite, since it's necessary to the survival of the species.

In cases of unwanted pregnancy, however, the mother can concider the foetus as a parasite if she can't get rid of it for some reason. The baby isn't giving any benefit to its host : it's taking up ressources, endanger her survival, lower several of her physical abilities...

In DnD, most she-adventurers would gladly get rid of the little bug asap rather than being stuck for 9 months and then risking death giving birth to a child they'll have to give up adventuring to take care of OR abandon anyway. I guess the abortion-thing isn't a problem when you kill people on an daily basis.

TelemontTanthul
2009-09-29, 10:06 AM
Silly people, everyone knows the male body can sustain a fetus. If the internet has taught me anything, it's that a man is perfectly capable of giving birth even under the flimsiest of justifications. All you need is an awkward, badly written relationship with another male character, possibly but not necessarily the father. Add a few glurge-y scenes where you both worry about the baby, and you're golden. It's a romance that will stand the test of time. kill me now


Never underestimate the value of a good montage. :smallwink:

Ditto
2009-09-29, 10:15 AM
In DnD, most she-adventurers would gladly get rid of the little bug asap rather than being stuck for 9 months and then risking death giving birth to a child they'll have to give up adventuring to take care of OR abandon anyway. I guess the abortion-thing isn't a problem when you kill people on an daily basis.

Death from childbirth? I didn't know there were rules that spelled out D&D babies come out like real world babies. I assumed that just went DING! and spawned next to the mother after 9 months.

Fishy
2009-09-29, 10:20 AM
It is more of a symbiosis that a parasitic relationship

It's a little bit of a stretch, but there are actually rules for symbionts. Our pregnant adventurer getting Remove Curse'd is a kind of equivalent to a druid wearing a Crawling Gauntlet from Magic of Eberron who transforms into a fish.

Symbionts count as magic items for a lot of purposes- under the most recent polymorph rules (I think), magic items that could be worn by the new form get resized appropriately, and anything else 'melds into the new form and becomes non-functional'.

tl;dr, The baby might end up going when your druid's armor goes when he Wild Shapes.

Thajocoth
2009-09-29, 10:24 AM
The baby is absorbed and if the person winds up female again, the pregnancy continues from where it left off, even if they're no longer the same race or species. In such a case where they're a different race or species and the pregnancy continues, they would still have features of the first race/species based on the duration of the pregnancy pre-change, but gain features of the new race/species as the pregnancy continues.

At least, that's how I'd rule it.

And it gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "A wizard did it."

EDIT: I would also let it be used to protect the infant. As a pregnant woman, I'd have the player roll saves for both themselves and the infant if they were paralyzed or petrified or whatnot, but if in male form, I'd only have them roll for themselves.

Another_Poet
2009-09-29, 10:29 AM
Yes, and worse, for the sake of magic and resurrection souls are a FACT in DnD.

True. This doesn't really solve the question at all though, since there is no official rule on whether a soul enters a body at birth, or at conception.

Real-world religions and philosophies differ on this point. Many belief systems portray the soul as entering the baby when it draws its first breath after birth. Others believe it has a soul from the beginning.

So, the fact that souls exist in D&D doesn't tell us whether the unborn fetus is an Object or a Creature.

ap

taltamir
2009-09-29, 11:03 AM
Hum... The way you write it, it's like she has control over the process.
Facts are, Baby's sucking Mommy's resources, without her having any control over it, much like a parasite does. Only difference is that they are of the same species, so it's not technically a parasite, since it's necessary to the survival of the species.

Her BODY and her GENES have control over the process. That she is not consciously capable of controlling it is as irrelevant as lack of conscious control of the heart. Muscles are broken down to support certain organs in case of starvation, you have no conscious control over it, but it is programmed into your genes (just like a mother's calcium depletion). By your logic, a starving person's internal organs become parasites.


In DnD, most she-adventurers would gladly get rid of the little bug asap rather than being stuck for 9 months and then risking death giving birth to a child they'll have to give up adventuring to take care of OR abandon anyway. I guess the abortion-thing isn't a problem when you kill people on an daily basis.
That is a lot of assumptions, and I would say all of them are baseless. First of, a baby is not a bug. Second, she don't risk death because they can afford a cleric with magic, neither abandoning or retiring is required... a family member can take care of the baby during adventures, and she can during her downtime (that is assuming the father is an adventurer, otherwise the father can be a stay at home dad). And just because you kill monsters on a daily basis doesn't mean that you suddenly like abortion better.

Riffington
2009-09-29, 12:27 PM
Death from childbirth? I didn't know there were rules that spelled out D&D babies come out like real world babies. I assumed that just went DING! and spawned next to the mother after 9 months.

Well, where are you getting 9 months from? Is that RAW?

ericgrau
2009-09-29, 12:48 PM
It was going so well at first... let's avoid a thread lock from discussing things like the abortion debate and related views of various political and religious groups. The rest is good stuff though.

taltamir
2009-09-29, 02:25 PM
i agree we should avoid it, although it seems to me that nobody really delved into it.

Ravens_cry
2009-09-29, 02:38 PM
It was going so well at first... let's avoid a thread lock from discussing things like the abortion debate and related views of various political and religious groups. The rest is good stuff though.
Amen to that. This is a lot of fun. Might put a damper on the adventuring career having a wee one with you. And this is after the kidlets born.
As I said, I just would put it as male pregnancy. Rather weird but interesting role play fodder.

Paulus
2009-09-29, 02:40 PM
Amen to that. This is a lot of fun. Might put a damper on the adventuring career having a wee one with you. And this is after the kidlets born.
As I said, I just would put it as male pregnancy. Rather weird but interesting role play fodder.

Or you could just say whatever god was responsible for watching over kids made an extra dimensional space in your man belly for the kid to grow whereby when it was time to deliver the man had to do a lot of birthing pains and from a magical portal of light the baby is removed. Hooray for Favored Souls!

taltamir
2009-09-29, 02:42 PM
Or you could just say whatever god was responsible for watching over kids made an extra dimensional space in your man belly for the kid to grow whereby when it was time to deliver the man had to do a lot of birthing pains and from a magical portal of light the baby is removed. Hooray for Favored Souls!

epic win! as a bonus, he gets to join the party :)

Ravens_cry
2009-09-29, 02:44 PM
Or you could just say whatever god was responsible for watching over kids made an extra dimensional space in your man belly for the kid to grow whereby when it was time to deliver the man had to do a lot of birthing pains and from a magical portal of light the baby is removed. Hooray for Favored Souls!
OK, now THAT"S weird.:smallconfused:
Seriously, there already has been, in real life, a legally male man being pregnant at least once.
He was a transgendered female to male, but by law there isn't any differance

Another_Poet
2009-09-29, 02:45 PM
epic win! as a bonus, he gets to join the party :)

Fighter: Okay, we'll need to send someone out to draw their fire. How about that hireling kid, he's good for a few arrows before he kicks it.

Cleric: Dude, that's my son!

Fighter: Oh yeah, sorry... I meant cleric's butt baby should be good for a few arrows before he kicks it. All in favor?

Rogue: Aye!

Wizard: Aye!

Cleric: :smallmad:

taltamir
2009-09-29, 02:48 PM
favored soul are a type of cleric, you don't use them to draw enemy fire.

Paulus
2009-09-29, 03:00 PM
favored soul are a type of cleric, you don't use them to draw enemy fire.

Plus I'm pretty sure whatever god went to such great lengths to make him live would be preeeetty peeved at you tossing away their gift so callously.

taltamir
2009-09-29, 03:02 PM
Plus I'm pretty sure whatever god went to such great lengths to make him live would be preeeetty peeved at you tossing away their gift so callously.

and by god he means the DM ;p

Paulus
2009-09-29, 03:05 PM
and by god he means the DM ;p

Rocks fall everyone dies except the baby!

Jayabalard
2009-09-29, 03:06 PM
What makes you say that?obviously he's saying that your usage of the term implies that you don't understand what it means.

Ravens_cry
2009-09-29, 03:15 PM
obviously he's saying that your usage of the term implies that you don't understand what it means.
Schrodingers cat refers to the thought experiment on super position. Basically he described a superposition pregnancy, which is especially funny in light of how people say 'you can't be a little bit pregnant'. Maybe not, but according to his interpretation, you can be both pregnant, and not!:smallbiggrin:
Or was I using prego wrong?:smallconfused:

Paulus
2009-09-29, 03:19 PM
Schrodingers cat refers to the thought experiment on super position. Basically he described a superposition pregnancy, which is especially funny in light of how people say 'you can't be a little bit pregnant'. Maybe not, but according to his interpretation, you can be both pregnant, and not!:smallbiggrin:
Or was I using prego wrong?:smallconfused:

I think he means he expects you to use the example exactly as the hypothetical test in which it is only correct if you believe the baby is dead and alive at the exact same time as opposed to simply being there or not there, or even in two places/ two states, at the same time.

In other words perhaps he meant you were suppose to follow the letter and not the intent of the example. But I could be wrong.

Ravens_cry
2009-09-29, 03:23 PM
I think he means he expects you to use the example exactly as the hypothetical test in which it is only correct if you believe the baby is dead and alive at the exact same time as opposed to simply being there or not there, or even in two places/ two states, at the same time.

In other words perhaps he meant you were suppose to follow the letter and not the intent of the example. But I could be wrong.
Hence, why I was confused. And asked him.:smallamused:

taltamir
2009-09-29, 03:26 PM
id say either interpretation of the thought experiment is valid...

Dervag
2009-09-29, 03:34 PM
You can get a pretty good candidate for "Schrödinger's Pregnancy" with false pregnancies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_pregnancy); a small but nonzero percentage of the time that women show signs of pregnancy, there is no actual baby involved.

However, the wavefunction is overwhelmingly dominated by the |pregnant> eigenstate, because false pregnancies are very rare.

Dallas-Dakota
2009-09-29, 03:37 PM
Males who are stupid enough to be written doing this. Mpreg.

Mpreg = Baby comes. Baby can't come out. Baby goes boom. Yeah, boom there.

Bye bye bits.

taltamir
2009-09-29, 03:49 PM
Males who are stupid enough to be written doing this. Mpreg.

Mpreg = Baby comes. Baby can't come out. Baby goes boom. Yeah, boom there.

Bye bye bits.

you ignore the very real condition called ectopic pregnancy... nothing is stopping a male from being pregnant... its more work getting the baby out. a male does not have eggs or a vagina for such a thing to naturally occur, and the lack of a uterus can cause problems

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ectopic_pregnancy

An ectopic pregnancy is a complication of pregnancy in which the fertilized ovum is developed in any tissue other than the uterine wall. Most ectopic pregnancies occur in the Fallopian tube (so-called tubal pregnancies), but implantation can also occur in the cervix, ovaries, and abdomen. The fetus produces enzymes that allow it to implant in varied types of tissues, and thus an embryo implanted in places other than the uterus can cause great tissue damage in its efforts to reach a sufficient supply of blood. An ectopic pregnancy is a medical emergency, and, if not treated properly, can lead to death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_abdomen

guess what, males have an abdomen. however, it will be problematic:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1810923
in this example a woman carried an abdomenal pregnancy for 37 weeks before the baby was removed, the baby was not growing properly after the 22th week due to lack of space and did not survive.
However I found several other reports where the baby and mother both were fine... one case was even of twins who were perfectly healthy and fine.

http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Aktion=ShowPDF&ArtikelNr=110015&Ausgabe=233787&ProduktNr=223845&filename=110015.pdf

http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/14/5/1372.pdf

Yukitsu
2009-09-29, 03:52 PM
Considering where the male equivalent is, I'd be less optimistic about survival.

Paulus
2009-09-29, 03:52 PM
you ignore the very real condition called ectopic pregnancy... nothing is stopping a male from being pregnant... its more work getting the baby out. a male does not have eggs or a vagina for such a thing to naturally occur, and the lack of a uterus can cause problems

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ectopic_pregnancy

An ectopic pregnancy is a complication of pregnancy in which the fertilized ovum is developed in any tissue other than the uterine wall. Most ectopic pregnancies occur in the Fallopian tube (so-called tubal pregnancies), but implantation can also occur in the cervix, ovaries, and abdomen. The fetus produces enzymes that allow it to implant in varied types of tissues, and thus an embryo implanted in places other than the uterus can cause great tissue damage in its efforts to reach a sufficient supply of blood. An ectopic pregnancy is a medical emergency, and, if not treated properly, can lead to death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_abdomen

guess what, males have an abdomen. however, it will be problematic:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1810923
in this example a woman carried an abdomenal pregnancy for 37 weeks before the baby was removed, the baby was not growing properly after the 22th week due to lack of space and did not survive.
However I found several other reports where the baby and mother both were fine... one case was even of twins who were perfectly healthy and fine.

http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Aktion=ShowPDF&ArtikelNr=110015&Ausgabe=233787&ProduktNr=223845&filename=110015.pdf

http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/14/5/1372.pdf

In which case I'm sure some healing would go a long way to making this work. Also... is it just me or would it be terribly silly to presume doctors don't use some sort of teliportation to deliver babies?

Assuming of course babies don't have SR...

EDIT: it'd be just like the birth in Beastmaster! Only without the sacrificing!

Mewtarthio
2009-09-29, 03:55 PM
Or you could just say whatever god was responsible for watching over kids made an extra dimensional space in your man belly for the kid to grow whereby when it was time to deliver the man had to do a lot of birthing pains and from a magical portal of light the baby is removed. Hooray for Favored Souls!

Huh. And here I was about to suggest that the baby simply grows wicked talons and sharp fangs, claws its way out of the father, and attacks everyone nearby.

Faleldir
2009-09-29, 03:57 PM
Can't I post in a thread without derailing it or starting an unnecessary argument? Look, I'm willing to admit I'm wrong about whatever you want, just stop replying to me! I take it back! As far as I am academically qualified to tell, you used that term correctly! Are you happy now?

Paulus
2009-09-29, 04:32 PM
Can't I post in a thread without derailing it or starting an unnecessary argument? Look, I'm willing to admit I'm wrong about whatever you want, just stop replying to me! I take it back! As far as I am academically qualified to tell, you used that term correctly! Are you happy now?

Sure! I suppose?


Huh. And here I was about to suggest that the baby simply grows wicked talons and sharp fangs, claws its way out of the father, and attacks everyone nearby.

Guess it depends on the god... or the father... or, both! Rock me Asmodeus!

Ravens_cry
2009-09-29, 05:02 PM
Can't I post in a thread without derailing it or starting an unnecessary argument? Look, I'm willing to admit I'm wrong about whatever you want, just stop replying to me! I take it back! As far as I am academically qualified to tell, you used that term correctly! Are you happy now?
Very.:smallwink:
Just kidding, no worries, mate. I just wondered what you meant by what you said. Case closed. Discussion over.:smallsmile:

Johel
2009-09-29, 05:10 PM
Fighter: Okay, we'll need to send someone out to draw their fire. How about that hireling kid, he's good for a few arrows before he kicks it.

Cleric: Dude, that's my son!

Fighter: Oh yeah, sorry... I meant cleric's butt baby should be good for a few arrows before he kicks it. All in favor?

Rogue: Aye!

Wizard: Aye!

Cleric: :smallmad:

That's the spirit !! :smallamused:
And if he survives (that's a big "if"), we can call him Nodwick

Talya
2009-09-29, 05:11 PM
Hum... The way you write it, it's like she has control over the process.
Facts are, Baby's sucking Mommy's resources, without her having any control over it, much like a parasite does.


As a mother, I disagree. We have a lot of control over the process, the primary one being whether to initiate the process to begin with, a secondary being whether to continue it once it starts.

Anyway, living organisms procreate as a primary function. Your only biological reason for existence is to spread yourself all over the gene pool. Everything else is just increasing likelihood of survival for your progeny. You can hardly call the end-results of the entire purpose of your life "parasites."

Tyndmyr
2009-09-29, 05:24 PM
In the future, all those who claim to be disturbed by egregious power gaming and so forth should be sent here. Much, much worse. =)

In the unlikely event that this happened, my first question would be why the player thought it would be a good idea to combo this...Then I'd see what sort of creative result I could come up with.

If the kid's half Draconic/fiend/etc, well...it's going to be fun.

Johel
2009-09-29, 05:41 PM
In the future, all those who claim to be disturbed by egregious power gaming and so forth should be sent here. Much, much worse. =)

In the unlikely event that this happened, my first question would be why the player thought it would be a good idea to combo this...Then I'd see what sort of creative result I could come up with.

If the kid's half Draconic/fiend/etc, well...it's going to be fun.

A Vampire fiendish half-dragon, half-halfling, with some earth genasis ancestor. His "mother" adandonned him at birth so "she" could get rid of this cursed belt. Also, he will later find out that his true father (not the gender changed one, the other) was not a powerful wyrm but a kinky Minotaur with Celestial ancestor (you don't wanna know...).

Also : CENTAURS !!

@Talya :
Was thinking about the process of ressource sharing between the mother and the baby, not a "keep going"/"stop and die" thing.

But I get your point and agree with it. Though, as I wrote, in the case of an unwanted pregnancy, a woman might not be that maternal with the foetus.

Fiery Diamond
2009-09-29, 05:50 PM
The baby is absorbed and if the person winds up female again, the pregnancy continues from where it left off, even if they're no longer the same race or species. In such a case where they're a different race or species and the pregnancy continues, they would still have features of the first race/species based on the duration of the pregnancy pre-change, but gain features of the new race/species as the pregnancy continues.

At least, that's how I'd rule it.

And it gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "A wizard did it."

So that's where the owlbear came from!

MickJay
2009-09-29, 05:52 PM
There is that old sourcebook on sex in D&D, it had some rules for pregnancy, but it doesn't describe the details of effects of sex change on pregnancy.

http://www.acc.umu.se/~stradh/dnd/mirror/Assorted/ADnD_netbook_of_sex.html

taltamir
2009-09-29, 05:55 PM
That's the spirit !! :smallamused:
And if he survives (that's a big "if"), we can call him Nodwick

you mean... and after we resurrect him. His survival is not gonna happen

taltamir
2009-09-29, 06:00 PM
A Vampire fiendish half-dragon, half-halfling, with some earth genasis ancestor. His "mother" adandonned him at birth so "she" could get rid of this cursed belt. Also, he will later find out that his true father (not the gender changed one, the other) was not a powerful wyrm but a kinky Minotaur with Celestial ancestor (you don't wanna know...).

Also : CENTAURS !!

@Talya :
Was thinking about the process of ressource sharing between the mother and the baby, not a "keep going"/"stop and die" thing.

But I get your point and agree with it. Though, as I wrote, in the case of an unwanted pregnancy, a woman might not be that maternal with the foetus.

you know, in mammals with litters, such as canines. In times of duress (Such as lack of food), the body will recycle and reabsorb some of the fetuses for nutrients to nourish the mother and remaining fetuses. Yet another example of how it is not a parasite.

Jergmo
2009-09-29, 06:08 PM
Amen to that. This is a lot of fun. Might put a damper on the adventuring career having a wee one with you. And this is after the kidlets born.
As I said, I just would put it as male pregnancy. Rather weird but interesting role play fodder.

Well, see, to address this and every post related before that:

Childbirth works like in Dwarf Fortress. The infant pops out of you in the middle of combat and then joins the battle, I suppose grabbing a weapon from an already slain opponent.

Edit: As an additional perk, it gives you a flanking bonus!

Tyndmyr
2009-09-29, 06:24 PM
There is that old sourcebook on sex in D&D, it had some rules for pregnancy, but it doesn't describe the details of effects of sex change on pregnancy.

Book of Erotic Fantasy?

I was unable to find a single redeeming aspect to that book. I suspect it was made solely to allow a DM to out-disturb/screw with any player that gets too creative in that aspect of roleplaying.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-29, 06:26 PM
A Vampire fiendish half-dragon, half-halfling, with some earth genasis ancestor.

Your baby sparkles.

Johel
2009-09-29, 07:00 PM
Your baby sparkles.
...wait, what ? Nooooooooooooooooo !!!
Thou shall not mention the sparky one !! (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Vampire)

Ravens_cry
2009-09-29, 07:10 PM
Well, see, to address this and every post related before that:

Childbirth works like in Dwarf Fortress. The infant pops out of you in the middle of combat and then joins the battle, I suppose grabbing a weapon from an already slain opponent.

Edit: As an additional perk, it gives you a flanking bonus!
No offence, but that would suspend even my suspension of disbelief.:smallsigh:

Jergmo
2009-09-29, 07:12 PM
No offence, but that would suspend even my suspension of disbelief.:smallsigh:

I guess I shouldn't tell you about why pregnant miners should keep an extra pick around, then.

I think the real question, however, is...how is babby formed?

Zaydos
2009-09-29, 07:12 PM
Book of Erotic Fantasy?

I was unable to find a single redeeming aspect to that book. I suspect it was made solely to allow a DM to out-disturb/screw with any player that gets too creative in that aspect of roleplaying.

My players did get too creative in that aspect of roleplaying... especially after I showed them that book... then again I don't think anything in the book would have out-disturbed some of my players...

On another note: I did have a player who had a lung baby. He didn't get gender changed, but I stated if he slept with this unholy horror he would get pregnant... then he slept with it... long story short a fey queen pulled it out of his lung in exchange for granting him a wish and left him with 1 + 1/2 lungs. I decided to be nice or else it would have been his heart.

taltamir
2009-09-29, 10:47 PM
My players did get too creative in that aspect of roleplaying... especially after I showed them that book... then again I don't think anything in the book would have out-disturbed some of my players...

On another note: I did have a player who had a lung baby. He didn't get gender changed, but I stated if he slept with this unholy horror he would get pregnant... then he slept with it... long story short a fey queen pulled it out of his lung in exchange for granting him a wish and left him with 1 + 1/2 lungs. I decided to be nice or else it would have been his heart.

easily repairable with a heal spell... and totally worth it to score with a cute little unholy horror AND father-mother one...

Tyndmyr
2009-09-29, 11:27 PM
Wait, he got rid of his lung-baby....and in exchange, he was given a wish?

I think I speak for every cheesy optimizer here when I say, "How can I get a lung baby?"

Samus42
2009-09-29, 11:42 PM
In mine, this is the reaction to the pregancy in the campaign I'm in:
Mom (elven Druid):*multiple swears in Druidic*
Dad(human barbarian):LALALALA!! What kid? *shh* it doesn't exist! LALALALA! I can't hear you!
Half-Elf cleric: I worship Nerul, so I can get rid of it for you...
Elf Druid: No! Don't you dare try to kill my kid.
Elf Ranger 1(sister to Druid): I'm gonna be an auntie? Yay!!!
Drawrf Wizard: Yay! I can teach it to hate the gods!(The wizard has issues with the Gods)
Elf Ranger 2(sister to Druid and other ranger):...You're a woman?
Cleric:One day the baby will stop crying *manical laughter*
Druid's wolf:...Food?(This wolf has an int of 2:smallsigh:. keep that in mind)
Moral of the story: Never have children in your campaign, for the crazy cleric wants to kill it, the jaded wizard wants it to hate the gods, and the dad wants to use it as cannon fodder.

Zaydos
2009-09-29, 11:44 PM
Regeneration spell actually, but yeah not too hard (although at that level it was likely to never come except I was nice). I know why give up the lung baby? Either way it showed up again, having grown to human size (about 1/4th max girth) and wielding 4 or 5 battle-axes. Oh yes did I forget to mention that because he was a dread necromancer it was an undead unholy horror?

It was fun but the game got de-railed by such hijinx so I started a new one... I think my players have a furry fixation though... then again I made griffon-men.

taltamir
2009-09-30, 02:11 AM
now I want a lung baby...

Anyways, ring of regeneration solves all the problems.

MickJay
2009-09-30, 02:34 AM
Book of Erotic Fantasy?

I was unable to find a single redeeming aspect to that book. I suspect it was made solely to allow a DM to out-disturb/screw with any player that gets too creative in that aspect of roleplaying.

To be frank, from this perspective, I can't find a single redeeming aspect of this thread, either. By now it's probably more screwy and disturbing than the BoEF :smalltongue:

taltamir
2009-09-30, 02:38 AM
To be frank, from this perspective, I can't find a single redeeming aspect of this thread, either. By now it's probably more screwy and disturbing than the BoEF :smalltongue:

really? we have kept it completely tame. Most conclusions were things like "it goes where your armor goes when shape shifted; combing back unharmed" although a few posited it just causes an abortion.

Zovc
2009-09-30, 07:29 AM
I'm just saying, when I read the title, I thought something crazy was being done.

You're a cursed (male) person, you put on this belt and become a pregnant woman--in nine months you "pass" your curse. >.>

That's what the title led me to believe.

Ravens_cry
2009-09-30, 11:30 AM
I guess I shouldn't tell you about why pregnant miners should keep an extra pick around, then.

I think the real question, however, is...how is babby formed?
As a male ectopic (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1050942/Miracle-baby-Billy-grew-outside-mothers-womb.html)pregnancy.
Oh, it could have complications, but for ease of play, just say that in 9 months someones going to need a Cesarean. This could be done safely done in a semi-medieval setting with few healing checks and cure critical wounds. Oh, and a spell that knocks you unconscious.
Consult your local fertility Goddess for details.