Stealing My Dungeons From Zelda:

[ondonaflash]

I haven't yet, but I've thought about it. It seems like a lot of those dungeons are just sitting there, waiting to be used. Of course I'd have to do a bit of "redecoration" and I'd be replacing the Zelda Baddies with D&D Baddies, but still, it seems like a fun thought!

Besides which there's like 16 Zelda games, so selections are wide open!

Is there a downside to this I'm not seeing?

[Temet Nosce]

Complexity? Some of those dungeons will require you examining them carefully in game, altering them, and then using them...

That said, I love the idea. Make sure you use the Water Temple from OOT.

[jiriku]

Do it! And give an XP bonus to the first player who figures it out. If they're slow to catch on, you can always start playing Zelda theme music in the background and providing returning boomerangs of stunning as treasure.

[ondonaflash]

Complexity? Some of those dungeons will require you examining them carefully in game, altering them, and then using them...

That said, I love the idea. Make sure you use the Water Temple from OOT.

You have no sense of scale my friend! I was going to use the Water Temple... from Link to the Past. :nale:

[horngeek]

Oh, dear god.

That's going to take days of play time to do, I remember the Water Temple from that game.

[alchemyprime]

Do it! And give an XP bonus to the first player who figures it out. If they're slow to catch on, you can always start playing Zelda theme music in the background and providing returning boomerangs of stunning as treasure.

Eh, that might not work if you're like me (ie. You already use Zelda music. Kingdom Hearts and Dark Knight too.)

[ondonaflash]

Eh, that might not work if you're like me (ie. You already use Zelda music. Kingdom Hearts and Dark Knight too.)

AND CHRONO TRIGGER! :smallbiggrin:

[Mando Knight]

Is there a downside to this I'm not seeing?

There is no downside. Except that the LoZ dungeons were designed with a single character in mind (except for a few, when you've got an ally to help you).

[ondonaflash]

There is no downside. Except that the LoZ dungeons were designed with a single character in mind (except for a few, when you've got an ally to help you).

Oooo, Good point, I'll have to adjust them accordingly. This will be so much FUN!

[The Dark Fiddler]

Kingdom Hearts

You are my new best friend.

You should put some Heartless in. :smalltongue:

[Thelas]

http://www.zeldaguide.com/greatbaytemple.htm

(Hint: remember to only give them 72 hours to get to and do the dungeon!)

http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/gbcolor/file/472313/37219

And all the other water ones too, I guess.

Put an ocarina in for the bard somewhere, okay?

[Teron]

Is there a downside to this I'm not seeing?
There is the fact that they're designed first and foremost as tests of skill rather than any sort of plausibly functional dwelling or facility, which may or may not fit your game's style and plot. They're also designed for a character with a very specific set of abilities and equipment, as well as some arbitrary restrictions; a party of D&D characters should be able to replicate everything Link can do and much more, so they're likely to breeze past puzzles by picking locks, flying over pits and so on.

[daggaz]

Why all the new dungeons? (tho yeah the water temple in all its incarnations was sweet.) I think it would be funny to copy the first Legend of Zelda dungeons, just to see how long it takes before the groups map-maker suddenly exclaims "oh crap! Its level 7!"

[Laurellien]

Hmmm... An interesting idea, and I have tried it a few times. One thing that will make this very hard is the number of fundamental differences in gameplay between Zelda and D&D.

1) Time. Zelda is played in realtime, and D&D is played in a turn-based system. Hence all of the puzzles which require speed and precision are rendered redundant.
2) Control over character. In D&D, one need only state that your character jumps the pit, dodges the spiky pillar and shoots at the switch and then roll the appropriate skill checks. In Zelda, it is the skill of the player in doing these things that counts.
3) Number of characters. Zelda is balanced for one (and rarely two) characters. D&D is designed for parties of 3-6. This means that the aforementioned puzzles that rely on quickly navigating a maze of spikes and fire become redundant when one party member stands at one end and hits the switch to deactivate the firetrap, and another grabs the treasure before the timer has even started to warn you that it's about to expire.
4) Interactivity and the skills of characters. Zelda is a game with cutscenes and a strict ration on certain items and skills that would be common in D&D (e.g. ranged attacks).
5) Enemy vulnerabilities. Most Zelda monsters are only vulnerable in one part, and this becomes even more obvious with bosses. They have very prescriptive ways to be defeated, and in D&D this can only be simulated with immunity to non-critical hits, or by re-introducing called shots.

I'll use OoT as an example here with a typical party of a dwarf fighter, halfling rogue, elf wizard and human cleric as they fight from level 1 to level 18

1) Before dungeon 1
No need to do the quest for a sword and shield as the fighter already has them. If there is a need, then a simple look at the speed of the rock and the speed of the rogue character will deal with it.

2) Dungeon 1
The entire first half is missed out when the wizard uses a flask of alchemist's fire, oil, or even a burning hands spell to get rid of the web. The rogue and fighter then climb up to the platform with the spider web on it, help the other two up and fall down to face the boss, who is either immune to all non-criticals, or who is quickly taken down by a barrage of magic missiles, bolts and arrows.

3) Between Dungeons 1 and 2
The wizard uses cantrips and rogue uses a few sneaking spells to fulfil the optional sidequest of meeting the princess. When they reach Kakariko, the characters shimmy over the 9 foot wall to death mountain and enter dungeon two through either sheer persistence or through a simple spell such as stone shape or rock to mud.

4) Dungeon 2
Two flasks of alchemist's fire or fire-related spells open the mouth of the skull and the rogue picks the lock on the door to the boss (or the wizard uses knock, or the fighter breaks the bars). The boss just has a lot of hp and ac but is soon dealt with by power attacks and sneak attacks.

5) Between Dungeons 2 and 3
The party jumps or uses ropes to climb past the rocks blocking the river. They then enter Zoras' Domain, use mage hand or the swim skill to grab the letter in the bottle, and provoke Jabu-Jabu into eating them.

6) Dungeon 3
The party uses large amounts of slashing damage to hack their way through doors to the second room. They then use rope and pytons to climb up to the room with the spiritual stone, grab it and then leave (or stop via the boss to give him the quick once over with bows and arrows)

7) Between Dungeon 3 and 4
The cleric stoneshapes open the door of time, the fighter grabs the master sword. Confused, he then kills Rauru before he can speak and wanders out into the bleak darkness of Hyrule castle town. The cleric turns undead, and the party makes for dungeon 4. Here they easily shoot the patrolling enemies and their boss before using a fly spell up to the dungeon.

8) Dungeon 4
The rogue picks the lock of the first room, when the group reaches the main room, the wizard fireballs the 4 poe sisters before they can do anything. The group then rides down to the bottom where the fighter breaks the grate, or the rogue unlocks it, or the wizard/cleric simply bypass it. They steal the portraits in the boss room. When the boss appears, the fighter grapples him off his horse and the rogue shanks him to oblivion.

9) Between Dungeons 4 and 5
The wizard teleports to dungeon 5

10) Dungeon 5
The party enters the pre-boss room. The wizard flies the party to the boss door and uses knock to open it. He then drops a cloudkill inside and holds the door until Volvagia has finished choking to death. Alternatively, the super buffed up cleric could smash through the walls and break volvagia's back in a couple of hits from his divine powered, divine favoured, righteous mighted mace.

11) Between Dungeons 5 and 6
The wizard teleports to dungeon 6.

12) Dungeon 6
The wizard flies the party to the longshot target and then up the really annoying hall. The rogue picks the lock and the wizard uses multiple lightning bolts to destroy the boss, or the rogue drops dust of dryness into the strange pool for much the same effect.

13) Between Dungeons 6 and 8
Divination spells find the dungeon, teleport gets close, and then fly gets the party to the dungeon.

14) Dungeon 8
Using true seeing, dungeon 7 is bypassed, and any puzzles in dungeon 8 are easily overcome. The Cleric airwalks across the main room, pries the bars off the door, and then the wizard helps the other two across. The hide from undead spell stops any monsters from attacking. One-relaxed boat ride later, the fighter topples a column, the rogue picks a lock, and the cleric airwalks over to the boss whom he pulverises.

15) Between Dungeons 8 and 9
The wizard teleports to the valley and flies across it. The fighter refuses to surrender to Gerudo thieves and butchers them all swiftly. He then opens the gate and heads into the desert, where a quick casting of "find the path" leads to Dungeon 9.

16) Dungeon 9
Ignoring the only part in which size would have been an issue (the halfling would have been accompanied by reduced other adventurers), the wizard and cleric summon large elementals to destroy or move the block in their way. They reach the main room, use rock-mud to destroy the statue, enter the boss room, fly out of reach of the mini-boss, destroy it with arrows or something similar. In the boss room, the wizard casts fly on the fighter, the cleric casts airwalk and they grapple the bosses off their brooms. They then strangle them to death whilst wondering why witches prepared nothing but fire and ice spells and complaining over the general poor quality of the loot throughout the quest so far.

17) Between Dungeons 9 and 10
The wizard teleports to dungeon 10 and flies across the moat.

18) Dungeon 10
The cleric uses dispel evil, miracle or the wizard's wish or disjunction to remove the barrier. They then bypass some unremarkable encounters to reach Ganondorf. The large, airwalking cleric and the dwarf fighter (by now permanently transformed into an eldritch giant) fly up to the boss. Grapple him and proceed to punch his stupid face in. When the inevitable happens, all jump over the edge and survive thanks to masses of hp and the addition of a featherfall spell. When the final boss appears, the cleric pumps the fighter full of temporary hp and healing whilst the rogue is polymorphed into a hydra. The final boss is quickly killed by the 3 combat machines.

19+) The party heads to Termina, levels twice, and then uses epic magic to destroy the moon. Job's a good un.

[Another_Poet]

I assume you mean you're going to use the maps/layout only, and not the heavy railroading, the complete dependence on a single item (that the PCs won't need, having spells) or the puzzles that no one would ever actually construct.

If so, then you needn't worry about Laurellien's objections, but Teron's point still stands. The dungeons do not resemble actual buildings. You could probably get away with one or two by claiming they're catacombs but eventually your PCs will wonder why no one ever builds temples, mausoleums, prisons, castles, or other sensible buildings.

ap


edit: I actually think you'd be better off mining some premises from Zelda than actual dungeon design. The idea of limited time travel between present day and 10-20 years in the future after a disaster is pretty awesome. The idea of regularly zipping between the physical world and a shadowy imitation world is also awesome. Either of those would make for a badass campaign.

[Keshay]

The gripe that the Zelda dungeons do not resemble actual living/working areas is pretty thin. Half the dungeons in published modules are not recognizable as anything a rational archetect would design.

[TheCountAlucard]

And while there's only so much Link can do with his ingenuity if he doesn't have the right items...

PC: "The boss door is accessible from the first room?"

GM: "Not quite, you don't have the boss key yet, and it's all the way-"

PC: "Adamantine dagger."

[Another_Poet]

The gripe that the Zelda dungeons do not resemble actual living/working areas is pretty thin. Half the dungeons in published modules are not recognizable as anything a rational archetect would design.


Point taken, but let me put it this way: if structures like the Moathouse from Temple of Evil (or the castle in Ravenloft) are to reality as the Moon is to the Earth, then Zelda dungeons are Pluto.

[Person_Man]

Do it! And give an XP bonus to the first player who figures it out. If they're slow to catch on, you can always start playing Zelda theme music in the background and providing returning boomerangs of stunning as treasure.

Actually, you can already do this with the Boomerang Daze feat (Races of Eberron), which is ridiculously potent (as everything is subject to Daze).

[Tiki Snakes]

"Zelda Dungeons are designed for one person..." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2-p0gEqDTQ)

[valadil]

Be prepared for players to break your dungeons in interesting ways. Take the hook shot for instance. It's a projectile on a chain. If it hits the right object, you can get pulled over cliffs and chasms. In Zelda, it can point in only the cardinal directions and only on your plane. You'll either have to come up with some contrived excuses for it to continue to function this way or be ready for your players to bypass half the dungeon when they shoot it at an angle. I'm sure there are other aspects of the game that will be broken - that was just the first one I could think of.

[Godskook]

You're not the first to have this idea, and as long as you're primarily sticking to layout, it should be awesome.

[Godna]

Be prepared for players to break your dungeons in interesting ways. Take the hook shot for instance. It's a projectile on a chain. If it hits the right object, you can get pulled over cliffs and chasms. In Zelda, it can point in only the cardinal directions and only on your plane. You'll either have to come up with some contrived excuses for it to continue to function this way or be ready for your players to bypass half the dungeon when they shoot it at an angle. I'm sure there are other aspects of the game that will be broken - that was just the first one I could think of.

actually just limit what it hooks on to and limit the distance and thats solved thats how they did it in ocarina of time

[valadil]

actually just limit what it hooks on to and limit the distance and thats solved thats how they did it in ocarina of time

As I said before, that was just one example. Yes it's fixable. But there are plenty of other items, some of which will have unexpected behaviors. The OP will foresee some interesting uses but miss others. I pity the GM who assumes he's more creative/clever/Macguyveresque than a table full of PCs.

[Jergmo]

You have no sense of scale my friend! I was going to use the Water Temple... from Link to the Past. :nale:

*The screams of women and babies and the howls of dogs can be heard in the background*

[Godskook]

As I said before, that was just one example. Yes it's fixable. But there are plenty of other items, some of which will have unexpected behaviors. The OP will foresee some interesting uses but miss others. I pity the GM who assumes he's more creative/clever/Macguyveresque than a table full of PCs.

1.Provoking clever thinking is a good thing, not a bad one.

2.Zelda games are highly railroad-ish, so some deviation is necessary to make it enjoyable as a D&D game.

[Jergmo]

Oh, wait! I know! I know! The Stone Tower Temple in Majora's Mask! *Cackles madly*

[valadil]

1.Provoking clever thinking is a good thing, not a bad one.

2.Zelda games are highly railroad-ish, so some deviation is necessary to make it enjoyable as a D&D game.

I agree whole heartedly. I want the GM to be prepared for clever players instead of assuming Zelda puzzles will work just like they did in the video game. By 'be prepared' I don't mean that he should come up with ways to limit them, but be willing to let them skip half the dungeon if they play smart.

[ondonaflash]

Valid Post

Your points seem to focus on a few assumptions that I don't think are completely valid. The first assumption is that these people will be able to find or have many of those items that they use to skip large steps of the dungeons. I'd be a moron to let that happen, I never just give my players stuff arbitrarily, everything they have is something I carefully consider and decide whether or not its something that could ruin me.

Same thing with spells. I don't just hand out the complete PH Spell list to every caster, I give them their spells sparingly, and with careful consideration. And I've banned "Fly".

You also seem to be of the opinion that the architects in ancient Hyrule had no magic. If it was as simple as melting the stone to open the Door of Time somebody would have done it already.

And mostly your post seems to hinge around the fact that I'm an idiot and I give my players every item and spell they want to use.

And your biggest error is in assuming I'll use Ocarina of Time, or Majora's mask. Those games were way too easy. The older games, like Link's Awakening, and Link to the Past were designed from a top down perspective with a grid pattern ready made into dungeons.

[alchemyprime]

You are my new best friend.

You should put some Heartless in. :smalltongue:

I do. I just add a few abilities on if its 4e, and I have a template for 3.5.

I'm also guilty of giving a paladin a keyblade... and making magic keychains into the best idea for weapons ever (if you're willing to live with a few cheaper +7 weapons instead of a +10 or two...)

Geez, I even made Hyrule a Crystal Sphere and the Kingdom Hearts verse into another plane of existance.

And with the Plane of Temporal Energy, it made Chrono Trigger games easy too...

Geez, I gotta start reading fantasy books. Having mainly video games, cinema, manga and American comics as my inspirations have made my campaign worlds WEIRD.

[FlyingWhale]

Actually, to me... It sounds kind of like he tried it before and was horribly devastated when it failed. I mean, I make flowcharts upon flowcharts upon flow... You understand I'm sure... And every time. Every time they find a way to completely bypass something as a result of broken/bad rules. I think half of all of my games are house-ruled by default.

Oh, if I am wrong, I apologize to you, Laurellien. It's just that I have made something I felt to be so wonderful, albeit spur, and then it crumbled with no hope of rekindling:smallannoyed:. But, time goes on and we learn from that :smallsmile:

And yes, my first instinct was ALTTP... As it was my favorite in the series... Too many bad experiences and nightmares with The Legend. Lots of childhood issues with bad power management... Game would often turn off from power surges, blackouts, sibling unplugging system... I still have nightmares of fighting the forces of darkness just to have a rainstorm cut power...

But yeah, play through the games a couple times... That also leads to making custom monsters! Which is always fun! Hey! Unique enhancements to items perhaps... I like the low magic campaigns myself... I don't dumb down the fighters because the wizards only have up to level 5 spells at level 20... I just give the wizards a little better armor/weapon options, a little more hp, and toss in a few extra custom feats etc... Little things that after 4 years of DMing seem to be pretty balanced... I have always liked the idea, and I applaud you sir for taking the bold steps to attempt it! Keep us updated good man!

[ondonaflash]

There was a thread that had some of the Items and Monsters from Zelda homebrewed, anybody have a link to that thread?

[FlyingWhale]

Hey, you probably already came across this site before, but it's kinda for anyone else following this too! Hope it helps... then again... if players of your games come on here as mine do... I'll spoiler it :)


http://tartarus.rpgclassics.com/zelda1/1stquest/dungeonmaps.shtml

[Laurellien]

Your points seem to focus on a few assumptions that I don't think are completely valid. The first assumption is that these people will be able to find or have many of those items that they use to skip large steps of the dungeons. I'd be a moron to let that happen, I never just give my players stuff arbitrarily, everything they have is something I carefully consider and decide whether or not its something that could ruin me.

But I'm talking about real basics here, the stuff which is so commonplace that it is both mundane and listed in the player's handbook, things like lockpicks and bows, neither of which should really be up to DM discretion. Things like DMM is just icing on the cake.


Same thing with spells. I don't just hand out the complete PH Spell list to every caster, I give them their spells sparingly, and with careful consideration. And I've banned "Fly".

Then we are used to different sorts of campaigns. I am talking from a RAW perspective where it is possible for a cleric to prepare any spell from his spell list, and possible for a wizard to learn any spell, even if he can't copy from scrolls and other spellbooks.


You also seem to be of the opinion that the architects in ancient Hyrule had no magic. If it was as simple as melting the stone to open the Door of Time somebody would have done it already.

Not melting stone, using magic to do it, like stoneshape. And would they really have done so? It is often the case that people don't do the simple and easy thing because of attached mythology or supersticion associated with it, Players tend not to abide by these.


And mostly your post seems to hinge around the fact that I'm an idiot and I give my players every item and spell they want to use.

I wouldn't call you an idiot for doing so, I would call you an idiot for assuming that only idiots use that style. I have played in fun, challenging games where nothing was off limits, and fun games with very limited resources. As I have already stated, most Zelda puzzles and obstacles can be bypassed with mundane equipment from the PHB, like ropes, bows and grappling hooks.


And your biggest error is in assuming I'll use Ocarina of Time, or Majora's mask. Those games were way too easy. The older games, like Link's Awakening, and Link to the Past were designed from a top down perspective with a grid pattern ready made into dungeons.

I never assumed that you would use OoT, I just used that as an example because I know it backwards. ALttP and LA make no difference. Those insurmountable ledges suddenly become surmountable with ranks in climb, or a grappling hook and rope, as do pits and chest-high barriers. Barred doors can be forced, locks picked, solid walls passed with enough spells or determination.

[kwanzaabot]

It's true that a lot of the Zelda dungeons would be cakewalks with access to a lot of the PHB things, but here's the thing:

If your players are passionate Zelda fans, it's entirely possible that they might be willing to play by the "rules". That is, walls are too smooth to climb, hookshots can only hook onto certain surfaces, doors are magic and therefore un-pickable... and so on.

It's not 100% likely, but there's a chance. Especially if you tell them beforehand. Hell, even hand out bonus XP for doing things the way Link would.

[FlyingWhale]

One HUGE thing that goes in favor of the game... If they are only... say, <level5... Well a LOT of that just was tossed out the window... Just sayin'.