[3.5] Is it just me, or is the Dragon Disciple a joke?

[Myou]

It doesn't progress casting in any meaningful way, it gives you stupid abilitites like claws, a tiny amount of natural armour, extra int for a cha-based caster, and the ability to fly, badly. Oh, and you can do, what, 6d8 damage once a day with your breath weapon? At about level 12 or somewhere around there.

And the ultimate ability, is to give you the half-dragon template.

Why not just play a half dragon?! x_x

Am I missing some great ability? Or is the class only good for metabreath abuse?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

It is only good for a rather specific kind of gish.

[lsfreak]

You didn't miss anything. It's a horrible PrC pretty much all round except in rare instances, like as a cap in Keld's Suel Arcanamach (sp?) gish build just for the extra spells known.

[KellKheraptis]

It doesn't progress casting in any meaningful way, it gives you stupid abilitites like claws, a tiny amount of natural armour, extra int for a cha-based caster, and the ability to fly, badly. Oh, and you can do, what, 6d8 damage once a day with your breath weapon? At about level 12 or somewhere around there.

And the ultimate ability, is to give you the half-dragon template.

Why not just play a half dragon?! x_x

Am I missing some great ability? Or is the class only good for metabreath abuse?

Dragon Disciple and Half-Dragon both are kind of a hose. Either waste 10 levels to gimp yourself, or waste three effective levels to gimp yourself, in a way that won't progress anything! Damned if you do, damned if you don't :P Oh wait...why be half when we have polymorph tech! That's my chosen solution, that or go Dragonborn.

[Faleldir]

Of course it's a joke. If you're a Half-Dragon, you can't be a Dragon Disciple, so you lose your class features, including the Half-Dragon subtype, which makes you qualify for the class again and become a Half-Dragon again...

[Korivan]

You didn't miss anything. It's a horrible PrC pretty much all round except in rare instances, like as a cap in Keld's Suel Arcanamach (sp?) gish build just for the extra spells known.

And yet not the WORST arcane PrC. Thats reserved for the Green Star Adept. But Ya, DD doesn't meet the "good" PrC's for mages. No caster progression, focus on physical combat not spell combat, and as already mentioned, its abilities are mediocre.

[Myou]

It is only good for a rather specific kind of gish.

Ah, yes, the famed glass peashooter. :smalltongue:


You didn't miss anything. It's a horrible PrC pretty much all round except in rare instances, like as a cap in Keld's Suel Arcanamach (sp?) gish build just for the extra spells known.

Hmmm, might I see this build? The name rings a bell.


Dragon Disciple and Half-Dragon both are kind of a hose. Either waste 10 levels to gimp yourself, or waste three effective levels to gimp yourself, in a way that won't progress anything! Damned if you do, damned if you don't :P Oh wait...why be half when we have polymorph tech! That's my chosen solution, that or go Dragonborn.

Well, the way I see it, you can optimise a gimped half-dragon sorcerer to make him playable at higherl levels, especially if you abuse a few PrCs, but a Dragon Disciple? You can't even take those PrCs, because it costs you ten whole levels! Ten!


Of course it's a joke. If you're a Half-Dragon, you can't be a Dragon Disciple, so you lose your class features, including the Half-Dragon subtype, which makes you qualify for the class again and become a Half-Dragon again...

Which is why you live under a constant greater invisibility and mind blank, because the instant anyone sees you, poof, 50% chance you just lost ten levels.


And yet not the WORST arcane PrC. Thats reserved for the Green Star Adept. But Ya, DD doesn't meet the "good" PrC's for mages. No caster progression, focus on physical combat not spell combat, and as already mentioned, its abilities are mediocre.

Hey now, no swearing, the Green **** ***** is just some guys on drugs thinking how cool it would be if wizards overdosed on cocaine laced with dye, then making a PrC of it.

[Johel]

Fluff wise :
A half-dragon is the son of a dragon and... something. It looks draconic since its birth and has immediate access to his powers. He probably was an orphan or at least had one of his parents disappear.

A Dragon Disciple has draconic ancestors but that can be as far as 10 generations away. Hence the fact it takes 10 levels to become half-dragon, as the power of their blood slowly awaken as they use arcane magic. Except that, they are perfectly normal members of their species.

[Steward]

I think it would be a great prestige class. For example, if your DM lets you to switch out the DD levels for druid levels, you can increase your spellcasting and your saves much better. You also gain access to cool new abilities like Wildshape and if you take natural spell feat you can cast while in the body of a powerful elephant or bear! It's the perfect class. Dragon Disciple, that is.

[SoD]

Fluff wise :
A half-dragon is the son of a dragon and... something. It looks draconic since its birth and has immediate access to his powers. He probably was an orphan or at least had one of his parents disappear.

A half-dragon can also have both parents as dragons. There's nothing in the rules which prevents you from making a half-gold-dragon Gold Dragon. Or even a half-gold-dragon-half-gold-dragon-half-gold-dragon Gold Dragon.

[EnnPeeCee]

Don't think of it as a caster PrC. Think of it as a fighter-type PrC with really weird prerequisites. It really beefs up strength based characters. Probably not "optimal" still, but 90% of the content in d&d isn't. Its just another option available to build with.

[Korivan]

Actually as memory recalls, there was one really sweet ability the DD had. An ability that surpassed all others. One that shook the very foundations of the gaming community. In Neverwinter Nights 1, you could get red dragon wings for your character!!!!!

Sadly, when I tried to do this in NWN2 it didn't give me wings. So I never played on in NWN2 more then once.

[Akal Saris]

I think it would be a great prestige class. For example, if your DM lets you to switch out the DD levels for druid levels, you can increase your spellcasting and your saves much better. You also gain access to cool new abilities like Wildshape and if you take natural spell feat you can cast while in the body of a powerful elephant or bear! It's the perfect class. Dragon Disciple, that is.

That's a great idea! Maybe the dragon disciple's innate draconic charisma will be so high, he can even have an animal companion to follow him around! It's too bad there's no base classes as awesome as dragon disciple =(

[Eldariel]

Dragon Disciple is better than Half-Dragon 'cause it doesn't have Level Adjustment and because you don't have to take all the levels. It has three uses:

1) Core melee PrC with one-two level Sorc-dip. You lose some BAB, but get Str increases to compensate, which means slightly more damage at the same To Hit and better Trips. Because bonus feats suck in Core, it's actually superior to e.g. multiclassing into Fighter and as such, has its own niché there. Note, never take 10 levels; 4 is ideal though 7-8 can be consideration-worthy. Enlarge Person is far better than the bonuses you gain on level 10 of the PrC.

2) Epic PrC to gain extra 10th+ level spell slots easily. Yeah, it's niché and kinda bad even there, but much better than any of the pre-epic uses.

3) Take a Suel Arcanamach who finishes his casting advancement in 10 levels. This leaves you with spontaneous casting and some left-over levels where you can use Dragon Disciple for extra slots and some stat bonuses.


For example, Barbarian 14/Sorcerer 2/Dragon Disciple 4 is probably the best tripper (at tripping; e.g. Horizon Tripper is obviously much more versatile) you can make in Core with consistent Rage, +10 Str over normal when Raging, 18/20 BAB and access to True Strike & Enlarge Person on his own power. He'll also have a superb Will-save for a core melee type between Rage-bonuses, two good progressions and Indomitable Mind.

Out-of-core it doesn't hold water, but in Core the numbers are decent. Indeed, Orc Barbarian/Dragon Disciple can reach Str 50 by level 20 in Core (18 PB + 4 Race + 5 levels + 5 inherent + 6 item + 6 Rage + 4 Dragon Disciple + 2 Enlarge). Of course, he'll still only be Large so what he can trip is limited to Huge (but he can trip basically anything Huge with little effort), and the stat requirements of 11 Cha and 13 Int are harsh, which is why I'd rather go Human/Dwarf most of the time.


EDIT: But yeah, make no mistake, it's a pretty horrible class.

[Myou]

Don't think of it as a caster PrC. Think of it as a fighter-type PrC with really weird prerequisites. It really beefs up strength based characters. Probably not "optimal" still, but 90% of the content in d&d isn't. Its just another option available to build with.

So, it's a fighter PrC that's weaker than multiclassing to Barbarian. :smallyuk:

[Johel]

A half-dragon can also have both parents as dragons. There's nothing in the rules which prevents you from making a half-gold-dragon Gold Dragon. Or even a half-gold-dragon-half-gold-dragon-half-gold-dragon Gold Dragon.

Nickpicking but correct.

[Omegonthesane]

You could use this casting class instead (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dragon_Blood_Sorcerer_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)). In fact, it even gives better BaB than a real sorcerer.

[Jack_Simth]

You could use this casting class instead (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dragon_Blood_Sorcerer_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)). In fact, it even gives better BaB than a real sorcerer.
...

In what sense is that prestige class not just an upgraded Sorcerer? It's not focusing; if you ignore familiar advancement, it's a strictly strengthened version of the sorcerer, costing a single feat for entry.

The regular Dragon Disciple does do fairly reasonably in a medium-powered gestalt, though, for a Gish build.

[Elfin]

It's without doubt a terrible class...awesome fluff, though.

[Tyndmyr]

And yet not the WORST arcane PrC. Thats reserved for the Green Star Adept. But Ya, DD doesn't meet the "good" PrC's for mages. No caster progression, focus on physical combat not spell combat, and as already mentioned, its abilities are mediocre.

Yeah...I read through that class like three times, trying to figure out what I was missing. I really just don't see why anyone would ever take it.

Same goes for dragon disciple, of course.

[Myou]

You could use this casting class instead (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dragon_Blood_Sorcerer_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)). In fact, it even gives better BaB than a real sorcerer.

Given that it's homebrew, it's not an option that many DMs would allow.


...

In what sense is that prestige class not just an upgraded Sorcerer? It's not focusing; if you ignore familiar advancement, it's a strictly strengthened version of the sorcerer, costing a single feat for entry.

The regular Dragon Disciple does do fairly reasonably in a medium-powered gestalt, though, for a Gish build.

But it doesn't even get a familiar or the ability to specialise!

[taltamir]

A half-dragon can also have both parents as dragons. There's nothing in the rules which prevents you from making a half-gold-dragon Gold Dragon. Or even a half-gold-dragon-half-gold-dragon-half-gold-dragon Gold Dragon.

that is wrong on so many levels T.T

[The Dark Fiddler]

Dragon Disciple is there... fluff-wise. But spending 10 levels on a template and a few extra spells? Pass. There's got to be a better way to do it, and this is one of the few anythings I'd LOVE to see "fixed". And I'm not even a heavy optimizer. (The extent I go to is basically Rogue should be Dex instead of Str because Dex adds to AC).

[deuxhero]

Given that it's homebrew, it's not an option that many DMs would allow.


A quick look and I don't really see anything that useful for a caster except for the spell like ability (that is a tad over powered, gold's is a 9th level spell obtainable by the time you have 4th levels). If the SLA was converted to automaticly knowing the spell (it is a sorc class, Wizard entry seems like an after thought) the next most powerful ability is a couple of bonus feats from a very narrow (less than a dozen IIRC) pool.

[Kurald Galain]

I tried really hard making a gish with DD once, and turned out I was better off without DD in any case. I think I ended up at Eldritch Knight, which is much better. So yeah, DD is t3h sukk.

[Kallisti]

Dragon disciple is a joke. And a poor one. The fluff is...all right, I suppose, although I've never been enamored of it, but the class itself is so underpowered I can't believe Wizards didn't catch that in a playtest and buff it up.

[BenTheJester]

A half-dragon can also have both parents as dragons. There's nothing in the rules which prevents you from making a half-gold-dragon Gold Dragon. Or even a half-gold-dragon-half-gold-dragon-half-gold-dragon Gold Dragon.

Except you can't add a template more than once.

[Jergmo]

Dragon disciple is a joke. And a poor one. The fluff is...all right, I suppose, although I've never been enamored of it, but the class itself is so underpowered I can't believe Wizards didn't catch that in a playtest and buff it up.

I think it's fairly well known Wizards hasn't done so hot to balance a wide variety of monsters and races.

[Eldariel]

Dragon disciple is a joke. And a poor one. The fluff is...all right, I suppose, although I've never been enamored of it, but the class itself is so underpowered I can't believe Wizards didn't catch that in a playtest and buff it up.

It's about in line with Core-melee 'cause Core melee feats beyond Trip, Reflexes & PA suck...which makes Fighter-levels grant diminishing returns and Barbarian has always had quite a poor scaling; thanks to this, Dragon Disciple doesn't really lose much since neither of the aforementioned classes does much good anyways.

But yeah...you'd think a class requiring casting to enter would do something with said casting. It's Arcane Archer all over again. As it stands, the class is almost purely a melee class that requires a pointless caster dip. One great thing about the class does exist though: It gives you a natural Bite-attack giving you a nice extra source of damage on full attacks.

[Lamech]

Wait can you get extra 10th level spell slots with it? And by tenth I mean extra epic level spell slots with it...

[Mando Knight]

It's useful in Paladin//Sorcerer gestalts, though, IIRC. It's also decent for melee-focused builds in NWN2 because it allows for easier access to Great Smite... and because you can force your allies to fill in the role of Bat-Caster for you.

[Eldariel]

It's useful in Paladin//Sorcerer gestalts, though, IIRC. It's also decent for melee-focused builds in NWN2 because it allows for easier access to Great Smite... and because you can force your allies to fill in the role of Bat-Caster for you.

It's useful in NWN 2 because the game is so ridiculously easy that you could play a Commoner and solo it, and because there definitely is absolutely nothing worth anything to take there as feats or classes.

Really, either you're a Stormlord Cleric or you're horribly suboptimal; Arcane Scholars & Red Wizards aren't entirely worthless, but they're still far behind, and then you have Monk 1/Druid X (which would be much better if Wildshape didn't contain majority of the game's infinite bugs), some Rogue-builds (well, every decent character has a level of Shadowdancer of course) and such at the slightly lower tier, but none of that matters outside PvP servers.


But yeah...

[Myrmex]

Dragon Disciple is a decent prestige class in a core game. It has more to offer a fighter or barbarian that enjoys hitting things, for instance, than just more fighter or barb levels.


A half-dragon can also have both parents as dragons. There's nothing in the rules which prevents you from making a half-gold-dragon Gold Dragon. Or even a half-gold-dragon-half-gold-dragon-half-gold-dragon Gold Dragon.

I heard you like dragons.

[Grumman]

A half-dragon can also have both parents as dragons. There's nothing in the rules which prevents you from making a half-gold-dragon Gold Dragon. Or even a half-gold-dragon-half-gold-dragon-half-gold-dragon Gold Dragon.
I find that pages 3 through to 319 of the Monster Manual make an effective argument against these kinds of shenanigans.

[Starbuck_II]

Given that it's homebrew, it's not an option that many DMs would allow.



But it doesn't even get a familiar or the ability to specialise!

Agreed, but it is no Lightning Warrior.

[sonofzeal]

Dragon Disciple is a decent prestige class in a core game. It has more to offer a fighter or barbarian that enjoys hitting things, for instance, than just more fighter or barb levels.



I heard you like dragons.
So you put dragon on my dragon so I can dragon while I dragon?

[Thurbane]

The Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/dragon-desciple) version is significantly better, but still not great...

Anyway, I agree with those who said the PrC should not be viewed as a caster PrC, but a melee PrC that requires a dip in a casting class to qualify.

In core only, Bard 4/Fighter 2/DD 4/Barbarian 10 isn't horrible, and still gets BAB +18. 4 levels of DD gets +3 BAB, 2 good saves, +4 STR, +2 natural AC and natural attacks...

[taltamir]

I think it's fairly well known Wizards hasn't done so hot to balance a wide variety of monsters and races.

wizards (of the coast) couldn't balance themselves out of a wet paper bag!

[9mm]

wizards couldn't balance themselves out of a wet paper bag!

well considering you'd need to fall to get out...

[Tyndmyr]

I find that pages 3 through to 319 of the Monster Manual make an effective argument against these kinds of shenanigans.

Cmon, if you're going to throw the book at him, throw the whole thing.

[Neek]

I'm surprised no one houses rules a +1 caster level where you would normally get those lame bonus spells. I think that makes the class a heck of a lot more appealing. And even doing that hardly breaks the class compared to what some other prestige classes do.

[taltamir]

I'm surprised no one houses rules a +1 caster level where you would normally get those lame bonus spells. I think that makes the class a heck of a lot more appealing. And even doing that hardly breaks the class compared to what some other prestige classes do.

i'd go with that... Giving a sorcerer strength and the like is a trap anyways, using it distracts it from casting spells, which are much more effective. I'd make it a full caster progression class.

yea... cut down the HD to regular levels (read: a d4). Remove "bonus spells", give +1 CL and progression every level (full progression). Leave every other ability intact. If your sorcerer wants to be biting someone for 1d6 damage at double digit levels, let him.

[Myrmex]

i'd go with that... Giving a sorcerer strength and the like is a trap anyways, using it distracts it from casting spells, which are much more effective. I'd make it a full caster progression class.

yea... cut down the HD to regular levels. Remove "bonus spells", give +1 CL and progression every level (full progression). Leave every other ability intact. If your sorcerer wants to be biting someone for 1d6 damage at double digit levels, let him.

Uh, with a sorcerer's low number of spells known, going gish can be very appealing, since you're putting up the same number of spells every turn.

Claw Claw Bite becomes much more impressive when you have Bite of the Weretiger up and are pouncing with Wraithstrike.

Or using Blood Wind.

[taltamir]

yet he uses a D4 for HD now... and would you really rather use bite of the weretiger instead of a "save or lose" spell? or just "lose without a save"?

[Neek]

i'd go with that... Giving a sorcerer strength and the like is a trap anyways, using it distracts it from casting spells, which are much more effective. I'd make it a full caster progression class.

yea... cut down the HD to regular levels. Remove "bonus spells", give +1 CL and progression every level (full progression). Leave every other ability intact. If your sorcerer wants to be biting someone for 1d6 damage at double digit levels, let him.

I think the d12 is pretty strong, considering that not even half-dragons offer d12 hit die. I'd give it a d8 hit die; or, if I'm feeling particularly daffy, an increase of one step to your highest HD (so it doesn't hurt multiclassers, and as per the template.)

I don't like full progression in line with what what it has. I think the current set-up is fine considering what else you get out of it.

[taltamir]

I think the d12 is pretty strong, considering that not even half-dragons offer d12 hit die. I'd give it a d8 hit die; or, if I'm feeling particularly daffy, an increase of one step to your highest HD (so it doesn't hurt multiclassers, and as per the template.)

I don't like full progression in line with what what it has. I think the current set-up is fine considering what else you get out of it.

I did suggest cutting down the d12 to normal levels, I should have clarified and said a d4.

As for caster progression... dragons are naturally all sorcerers. So why shouldn't he get sorcerer levels for being more "draconic"?

[Neek]

I did suggest cutting down the d12 to normal levels, I should have clarified and said a d4.

As for caster progression... dragons are naturally all sorcerers. So why shouldn't he get sorcerer levels for being more "draconic"?

Oh hell, if you're going to give them a d4 hit die, give them the full caster progression. I just thought you meant give them less than a d12, but not the lowest.

[Myrmex]

yet he uses a D4 for HD now... and would you really rather use bite of the weretiger instead of a "save or lose" spell? or just "lose without a save"?

Take a look at the standard wizard load out on spells. More than half fail against plants, vermin, constructs, and undead. The rest that work merely hold them at bay for a bit.

The gish has the advantage of using a handful of spells to adapt a situation to his advantage- wraithstrike means you can hit high AC monsters, blood wind means you don't have to go toe-to-toe with that hydra, solid fog means you can buy your time to buff, bite of X means you can make up for a lower strength and non-full BAB, certain rays can even up disparities in saves, actions, or ability scores. Then of course there's all the novel movement methods available to a spellcaster.

While there is a spell to solve every problem, having that spell always available is more difficult. It's far easier to adapt a spell to meat a problem halfway, then beat the living snot out of it with HP damage. Because face it, virtually every problem in D&D can be solved with an adamantine dagger.

[taltamir]

Oh hell, if you're going to give them a d4 hit die, give them the full caster progression. I just thought you meant give them less than a d12, but not the lowest.

i DID give them full caster progression.


Take a look at the standard wizard load out on spells. More than half fail against plants, vermin, constructs, and undead. The rest that work merely hold them at bay for a bit.

The gish has the advantage of using a handful of spells to adapt a situation to his advantage- wraithstrike means you can hit high AC monsters, blood wind means you don't have to go toe-to-toe with that hydra, solid fog means you can buy your time to buff, bite of X means you can make up for a lower strength and non-full BAB, certain rays can even up disparities in saves, actions, or ability scores. Then of course there's all the novel movement methods available to a spellcaster.

While there is a spell to solve every problem, having that spell always available is more difficult. It's far easier to adapt a spell to meat a problem halfway, then beat the living snot out of it with HP damage. Because face it, virtually every problem in D&D can be solved with an adamantine dagger.

There are effective magic ways to deal with all of those... and you can always use an effective "We Win" party buff.
and if not, a fireball or a disintegrate will do in a bind, and be more effective than running into melee and using a bite weapon.
I mean, you need 8 ranks of knowledge arcana? Thats, level 5 minimum... so a full 10 level dragon disciple is a level 15 sorcerer... capable of casting level 8 spells... and you expect him to run into melee to bite someone?
+str and +int are useless, +con mildly useful (but not a big deal at those levels), flight only gained at discple 9, so that is CL 14.

[Myrmex]

There are effective magic ways to deal with all of those... and you can always use an effective "We Win" party buff.

Sure, but the chance that you won't have just the right spell, and haven't already used it (if a wizard), or don't have (if a sorc) are actually pretty good. And then you can always put a better "I Win" buff on yourself and kick some ass. The entire idea of Batman is that your DM hands you the campaign notes and says "please pick spells to precisely counter what I have prepared for you." Good luck with that.


and if not, a fireball or a disintegrate will do in a bind, and be more effective than running into melee and using a bite weapon.

Disintegrate is SR: yes, and requires a touch attack & fort save to do anything. Fireball does a measly amount of a commonly resisted damage type.

And you don't run into melee- you either charge & pounce, or use blood wind. You'll use fewer spell slots and do far more damage. Buffing & slaying is usually more efficient than other tactics, especially against multiple enemies (say, two CR or CR+2 equivalent enemies), where you don't have to spam save-or-dies hoping they'll fail or spread your orb damage out. Granted, if the enemies don't have a save buffed, then you can enjoy a 85% success rate with a spell if you pick the right spell (but who knows what potion he just quaffed, or if that buff looking dude has charisma to all saves).

There are also some very good spells to keep you from dying- ironguard, superior invisibility, improved mirror image, incorporeality, to name a few.

Look, the standard druid & cleric builds (CoDzilla) routinely incorporate gish-type builds, and you never hear anyone complaining about how underpowered they are. Clerics and Druids both, at their core, put up a bunch of buff spells and then use HP damage to kill opponents. They keep a handful of utility spells available when landing a bunch of HP damage at the moment is difficult.

[taltamir]

wizards can't be dragon disciples...

as for batman, I just read the thread... it lists completely generic spells that are good for almost everything, not telling you to tailor your choices to the campaign notes. IF you had the campaign notes you would get something very specific like undeath to death; which the batman does not include.

[Myrmex]

wizards can't be dragon disciples...

Alacritous Cogitation (feat), Cunning Foresight (feat) and Spontaneous Diviner (ACF) are at least 3 ways I know a wizard can be able to spontaneously cast spells. I'm sure there are more.


as for batman, I just read the thread... it lists completely generic spells that are good for almost everything, not telling you to tailor your choices to the campaign notes. IF you had the campaign notes you would get something very specific like undeath to death; which the batman does not include.

Note Batman's specializing in Divination and using divinations at every turn to figure out what happens next, so that you can prepare the right spells.

Remember, having only 4 of your highest level spell slots open means you can either prepare for the same encounter multiple times, or prepare for different encounters only once or twice.


But really, most Gish builds are at the same tier as CoDzilla, assuming no metamagic reducers or polymorph abuse in play (fairly reasonable assumptions, imo). Gishes have a harder time keeping up with CoDzilla if those are in play, since CoDzilla comes with everything nice, and you can then specialize in metamagic reducers, etc, while the Gish has to struggle with keeping his BAB, combat prowess, and spellcasting all up with PrC's and spell selection. This leaves little room for metamagic abuse or PrCs to make your spells harder to dispel.

[taltamir]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002

where does it say that?

[Myrmex]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002

where does it say that?

Mmm, not in the guide. I recall reading TLN's advocation for that approach, though. Scry & Die, as they say.

[Nero24200]

I think the main problem with DD is that everyone (for a reason which is beyond me) always seem to look at DD and think "What a poor prestige class for sorcerers"...even though bards, hexblades and spell-theives can take it as well, and it functions so much better for them since they aren't full-casters.

[Ecalsneerg]

I think the main problem with DD is that everyone (for a reason which is beyond me) always seem to look at DD and think "What a poor prestige class for sorcerers"...even though bards, hexblades and spell-theives can take it as well, and it functions so much better for them since they aren't full-casters.

It's not exactly great for them, though. It's less power-crippling only because those classes wouldn't gain the same power as a Sorcerer would.

[PhoenixRivers]

Even so, Duskblade gets more from Duskblade than it does from DD.

When taking a class hinders your power? Not great stuff.

[Heliomance]

And yet not the WORST arcane PrC. Thats reserved for the Green Star Adept. But Ya, DD doesn't meet the "good" PrC's for mages. No caster progression, focus on physical combat not spell combat, and as already mentioned, its abilities are mediocre.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that the wording of GSA means that over 10levels,it advances your CL by 15, making it somewhat awesome for gishes.

[Myrmex]

I think the main problem with DD is that everyone (for a reason which is beyond me) always seem to look at DD and think "What a poor prestige class for sorcerers"...even though bards, hexblades and spell-theives can take it as well, and it functions so much better for them since they aren't full-casters.

I think the reasoning goes "spell casting is the most powerful ability, and if you are going to have any casting in your build, then you should maximize it for great justice. Classes that don't contribute to your casting are therefore weak."

[Tyndmyr]

It's even worse than that from an action economy perspective. If you're stabbing, you're forgoing casting, and vice versa, in general. If you're awesome at one, you can do a lot every round. If you're mediocre at both...you'll be mediocre all the time.

Now, there are gish builds and such to combine melee and casting, but in general, a certain amount of focus is needed in any build to get good synergy.

[Amphetryon]

Given that Dragon Disciple was one of the earliest PrCs for 3.0 and again for 3.5, it's not terribly surprising that there are some issues getting the balance of it right. Early in the 3.X cycle, the designers were worried that gish-types were potentially overpowered, so were reluctant to advance spellcasting in a truly significant way for a class built with a decent BAB and melee proficiency chassis. Mike Mearls talked about this over at 339 when proposing his off-the-cuff Hexblade Fix (my emphases):

The hexblade suffers a little because he came on the scene relatively early in 3.5's life. As R&D pushes the boundaries of the game, we learn that some things we thought were risky or potentially broken aren't. Other times, we learn things that look fine don't actually work in play.

Armored mages fall into the first category. They seem really powerful, but in the long run they aren't. Spells and magic items allow an unarmored mage to build great defenses. The spell mage armor is as good as medium armor, and its duration allows most mages to keep it active at all times. If you compare the hexblade to the duskblade from PH 2, you can see how the thinking has changed.

If you want to boost the hexblade, I'd try the following changes:

* Good Fortitude save
* Curse ability usable 1 + the hexblade's Cha modifier per day
* Curse ability usable as a swift action
* Curse ability does not count as used if the target makes his saving throw
* Ability to cast in light or medium armor and while carrying a light shield or buckler
* At 6th level, the hexblade can cast one hexblade spell per day as a swift action, as long as its original casting time is a standard action or faster. He gains an additional use of this power at levels 8, 11, 14, and 18.

The key to the hexblade is his curse ability, but it's a little un-fun to have it so limited in use. The hexblade also has trouble casting spells and using his melee attacks, so shifting spells to swift actions fits in with the idea of an armored mage.

(These are by no means official. They're just off the top of my head changes I'd consider).

[Myou]

Actually, I'm pretty sure that the wording of GSA means that over 10levels,it advances your CL by 15, making it somewhat awesome for gishes.

Nope, on reading it, it adds class level to base class to get CL. So the levels where is advances casting don't have any effect, because that's casting granted by the PrC, not the base class, and thus not included when calculating caster level.

[minchazo]

Now, I actually *like* the prestige class for a melee class!

It gives you a d12 every HD, comparable only to a barbarian.

It gives you a breath weapon 1/day. If you take the feat that lets you use your breath weapon every 1d4 rounds instead of once a day, you give a fighter *some* AoE attack.

Immunity to one energy type. You go out and distract the enemy, the wizard drops an energy substitution fireball on the group without hurting you.

Blindsense

Flight! The half-dragon template doesn't give you flight, unless you're large.


I started out as a Bard to enter the class, so I didn't much care about the spells... and it was pretty funny to have a *bard* as the party meat shield :D

Comparing it to a non-caster class and non ToB class, it's decent.

[Kobold-Bard]

Only skimmed the thread, but PId6's redux of the Dragon Disciple (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114861&highlight=dragon) is pretty cool. If nothing else you get a Breath Weapon you can use every 1d4 rounds. But thats not all, you also get lots of other goodies. Try it perhaps.

[Sinfire Titan]

Cunning Foresight


You mean Uncanny Forethought. Cunning Foresight sounds like a Factotum class feature, but IIRC it doesn't actually exist.

[oxinabox]

A half-dragon can also have both parents as dragons. There's nothing in the rules which prevents you from making a half-gold-dragon Gold Dragon. Or even a half-gold-dragon-half-gold-dragon-half-gold-dragon Gold Dragon.

I hate half dragon, half dragon.
M mother was a dragon, may fater ... my father was also a dragon.

BTW TPKed by a Pink Dragon - Make a pinked dragon CR +2.
It's has no vunerabitities any more

[Sinfire Titan]

You could use this casting class instead (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Dragon_Blood_Sorcerer_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)). In fact, it even gives better BaB than a real sorcerer.

I'm going to let you in on a little secret: Most of the home brew on that wiki is made using a PB system also posted on that very wiki. The PB system is incredibly unbalanced, poorly thought out, and made by someone who knew nothing about class design. There's a few gems hidden here or there, but most of it is unbalanced, unplaytested, and very low quality work.

I recommend avoiding most of that wiki's home brew section.

[CheshireCatAW]

wizards (of the coast) couldn't balance themselves out of a wet paper bag!

Balance is a cross-class skill for them and they're a CHA based build.

[LibraryOgre]

Really, what I think I would do to improve the Dragon Disciple is remove the spellcasting and Arcana skill requirement, but leave the bonus spells as a class ability. To keep people from entering at 1st level (which, even then, wouldn't be HORRIBLE in a long-term game... a different take on the Barbarian), include a minimum HD requirement or a "at least one base save of +4 or higher" or something.

For a number of melee builds, a spell-less DD is a good option. As noted, the strength bonuses balance out the lower BAB. There's no skill hit for a paladin or fighter, smallish for a barbarian, and some rangers wouldn't hurt much from it. If you don't have to invest a level in a spellcasting class, the net is positive for core-book tank types, without being so positive that you'd be crazy not to take it.

[Person_Man]

It's a joke. Here's my fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99253). If you don't like mine, there are dozens (hundreds?) of others on the homebrew forums.

[Glass Mouse]

I simply love the DD's fluff, and I have a cool character in mind if I ever get the chance to play this.

Kind of a Barbarian/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple build, barbarian for usefulness and Sorcerer/DD for fluff and cool stuff. Purely core (PHB and DMG) group.
Wouldn't this character be somewhat useful?

If not, what would be a simple fix (for a melee-smashing-stuff type) that I could suggest to my GM? (I don't think he'll allow actual homebrew, but smaller changes, sure).

[Keld Denar]

Yea...Suel Arcanamach...dont' give me credit for it, even though I champion it more on this forum than I think anyone else over here.

General gist is usually

FullBAB6/Suel4/AbjChamp5/Spellsword1/DragonDisc4

with FullBAB being just about anything, but typically featuring 2 levels of Duskblade or 3 levels of Hexblade due to the skills required.

[Oslecamo]

It's a joke. Here's my fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99253). If you don't like mine, there are dozens (hundreds?) of others on the homebrew forums.

You call that a dragon class? Here's a true dragon class, all the way to gargantuan side:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124492

Anyway, I've heard plenty about Suel Archmage, but I don't seem to remember from wich book it is from. Anyone can elucidate me on that matter?

[Keld Denar]

Its Suel Arcanamach, and its in Complete Arcane. ColdSepp's character from the game you are running used it, before...he...disappeared...

Some info from Wizards (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070829).

And the handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870638/The_Suel_Arcanamach_Handbook?num=10&pg=1) from tiny_shinken.

[sonofzeal]

Suel Archanamach was the ingredient in an "Iron Chef" (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3568.msg116507#msg116507)contest I contributed to. Check it out, it's got some fun things.

[Person_Man]

You call that a dragon class? Here's a true dragon class, all the way to gargantuan side:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124492

Anyway, I've heard plenty about Suel Archmage, but I don't seem to remember from wich book it is from. Anyone can elucidate me on that matter?

Complete Arcane pg 63. 2 pointless feats as pre-reqs. Charisma based arcane spellcasting from from a good list (half the Wizard schools) that has good progression for a PrC (you get 5th level spells at ECL 14) but lousy progression compared to full casters. You ignore some armor spell failure. You get a limited number of Greater Dispel Magic strikes with your melee weapon each day. The primary benefit of the class is that you get Extend Spell for free on any spell you cast. It's a mediocre Gish PrC. But it has some big proponents on the site.

Edit: NINJAS!