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incubus5075
2009-09-30, 08:26 AM
We decided we may need another defender in our party and I hear the fighter is the way to go. The guy wanting to play the defender asked if I could help come up with an optimized but unique fighter so I gave it a shot. Iím thinking an executionerís axe weilding minotaur battlevigor fighter but had a few questions. The minotaur has a PP that extends his reach by 1, is there anyway to may that reach threatening (so that opponents provoke OA from leaving any square within 2 squares of him) Also I picked up Platemail since his AC sucks, what is the best platemail that wonít hinder his speed and skill checks to much (i plan on the minotaur charging often so I want his speed to stay decent)Finally what powers/magic items/feats should I pick up? Weíre only lvl 6 but if you wanna look on toward 11th lvl that would be appreciated. One feat I know I want is to be able to use goring charge (minotaur racial ability) as an OA without expending it. Thatíll give me a +4 and plus wisdom mod on attack rolls on OA so it will be nice.

Kurald Galain
2009-09-30, 09:01 AM
We decided we may need another defender in our party and I hear the fighter is the way to go.
You heard right!

Aside from being one of the most damaging defenders, the fighter is simply best at blocking the enemies.

Note that minotaurs get a feat which let them use their horn attack as an opportunity, and knock people prone with that. These feats are heartily recommended.

Battlerage vigor has been nerfed a lot since the Martial Power book was printed. Check the WOTC page for details.

Platemail isn't worth the feat for a fighter, just use scale.

Note that most fighter utility powers suck; I would recommend taking some skill powers instead, from the most recent dragon magazine.

Good paragon heroic powers include Villain's Menace, Rain of Blows, Rain of Steel (!!) and Come and Get It.

Master_Rahl22
2009-09-30, 09:14 AM
I'm not aware of any way for anybody to get threatening reach in 4E.

Brash Strike from MP is a good at will for a fighter with a greataxe. One combo I like with just about any fighter is Rain of Steel for your daily at lvl 5 and Come and Get It for your encounter at lvl 7. You force a bunch of enemies to move adjacent to you, and then you get to whack any enemy that starts its turn adjacent to you. It's a bit fuzzy, but most agree that you can't mark with Rain of Steel. Regardless, it's a great combo and easy to set up.

I usually find that Scale Mail is just fine for my fighters. You don't have to spend a feat, and you only have 1 lower AC and you don't have that -2 armor check penalty.

One great magic item is the Iron Armbands of Power from AV. They grant +2 damage to all melee attacks. A favorite for weapon is the Bloodclaw property, also from AV, that lets you deal damage to yourself in exchange for dealing even more damage to your enemy if you hit.

incubus5075
2009-09-30, 09:15 AM
What do you mean by nerfed? I am on my work computer so i can't check out WOTC. so scale mail is the way to go? Can do. I can knock ppl prone with my gore attack?! What feat is that?

Sipex
2009-09-30, 09:16 AM
Wait, rain of steel doesn't allow you to mark all the targets attacked? I thought fighters were able to mark anything they attack.

Also, are there any feats that allow you to sustain marks without attacking the enemy again? That would be useful.

Kurald Galain
2009-09-30, 09:19 AM
What do you mean by nerfed?
Mainly, their temporary hit points no longer stack, and they gain them when hitting stuff rather than by being hit.


so scale mail is the way to go?
Yeah, don't spend a feat on +1 AC, there are too many better feats.


I can knock ppl prone with my gore attack?! What feat is that?
None, actually: your Goring Charge does that by default. So if you can use Goring Charge on an opportunity, you can prone people on an opportunity.

Oh and yeah, bloodclaw weapons are good. Don't forget to carry a +1 magic heavy thrown weapon, in case you need ranged attacks.


I'm not aware of any way for anybody to get threatening reach in 4E.
Polearm Master paragon path, IIRC. But only for one encounter per day, and the executioner's axe isn't a polearm anyway.


Wait, rain of steel doesn't allow you to mark all the targets attacked? I thought fighters were able to mark anything they attack.
It doesn't, because if it doesn't involve a to-hit roll then it's not an attack. Rain of Steel is still probably the best heroic fighter daily, though.


Also, are there any feats that allow you to sustain marks without attacking the enemy again?
Not to my knowledge.

incubus5075
2009-09-30, 09:19 AM
I was thinking bloodclaw executioner's axe would be swwet. Will the temp HP from battlevigor help reduce some of the bloodclaw damage? I am trying to find some kind of weapon or feat that lets me get threatening reach but no luck so far...
Also there are several items that give extra damage and other stuff to charging, should i get these??

Drager
2009-09-30, 09:24 AM
Wait, rain of steel doesn't allow you to mark all the targets attacked? I thought fighters were able to mark anything they attack.

Also, are there any feats that allow you to sustain marks without attacking the enemy again? That would be useful.


In combat, itís dangerous to ignore a fighter. Every time you attack an enemy, whether the attack hits or misses, you can choose to mark that target

Fighters can only mark things they attack. You don't make an attack with Rain of Steel, thus no mark. It's all in the effect line.

incubus5075
2009-09-30, 09:25 AM
hmm...does the DnDI Ch builder say the temp HP don't stack? That is what we go by for most rules so if it doesn't say anything about that in the CH builder i'm gonna forget you mentioned that :) I defenatly did not see the prone part of gore charge, that makes a minotaur fighter deadly as heck! You can only make one OA a round right? or is it unlimited but only once per creature a round? I forget... Any suggestions for type of scalemail?

Kylarra
2009-09-30, 09:28 AM
Normally temp HP doesn't stack, but the reworded battlerager vigor gives you enough to pretty much overwrite the first number.



Battlerager Vigor [Deletion/Revision]
Martial Power, page 6
Delete the first two paragraphs and replace them with the following:
Whenever you hit an enemy with a melee or a close attack, you gain temporary hit points equal to
your Constitution modifier, plus any temporary hit points normally granted by the power.
If you use an invigorating fighter attack power and miss every target with it, you gain temporary
hit points equal to your Constitution modifier.

Kurald Galain
2009-09-30, 09:31 AM
I defenatly did not see the prone part of gore charge, that makes a minotaur fighter deadly as heck!
Says so in Dragon magazine.


You can only make one OA a round right?
One per turn, actually. You get one immediate action between the end of your turn and the start of your next one (i.e. one per round), but one opportunity on each of your opponent's turns.


Any suggestions for type of scalemail?
The best armor is the one that offers resistance. So deathcut, demonscale, resistance, or black iron are good suggestions.

incubus5075
2009-09-30, 09:36 AM
ok i see now. That makes the battlevigor not AS good as i previously thought but still pretty awesome. Is there a better build to go with the minotaur or should i still go with the BV build? Anyone know about that bloodclaw/temp HP question?

incubus5075
2009-09-30, 09:39 AM
One per turn, actually. You get one immediate action between the end of your turn and the start of your next one (i.e. one per round), but one opportunity on each of your opponent's turns.



wait, this confused me...so i can only OA one creature per my turn or multiple?

Drager
2009-09-30, 10:30 AM
Bloodclaw damage will come off your temps if you have them, as they are HP.

You can make an OA once per opponents turn, so if you are fighting 3 guys and each on their turn tries to move out of one of your threatened squares (or does anything else provoking an OA) you get to make 3 OAs in one round.

Thajocoth
2009-09-30, 10:37 AM
wait, this confused me...so i can only OA one creature per my turn or multiple?

Each enemy's turn, you can take an AO. So if there are 3 enemies, you can take 3 AOs if all 3 provoke. You can only use one immediate per round though. Your Combat Challenge is an immediate, not an AO.

Also, Dwarven Armor. Heal yourself (1/day) with a minor action for your surge val without spending a surge.

Lifedrinker Execution Axe. Regain 5hp (not temp hp) whenever you kill an enemy.

incubus5075
2009-09-30, 10:38 AM
sweet this definatly makes an awesome build, in my eyes anyway. Now i just need to come up with a beleivable background story as to why a minotaur would want to be traveling with an eladrin wizard, a drow rogue/socerror, and a gensai swordmage...... thanks to the advice, if anyone has anymore ideas let me know

incubus5075
2009-09-30, 10:42 AM
oh so i can only use the combat challenge once a round and prevent them from finishing the move. But i can use gore charge (minotaur ability) as an OA and knock them prone, which does the same thing pretty much...

Thajocoth
2009-09-30, 10:51 AM
The combination of the feats "Opportunity Gore" and "Greathorn" look fairly powerful. Goring Charge becomes usable as an AO, and increases by a die size.

Weapon Proficiency (Execution Axe) and Weapon Expertise (Axe) go quite well together.

Tribe of the Bloodied Spear to be even surer of your AOs hitting...

Mark of Warding is nice for that extra penalty to marked enemies.

Power Attack will become worth getting in Paragon Tier.


oh so i can only use the combat challenge once a round and prevent them from finishing the move. But i can use gore charge (minotaur ability) as an OA and knock them prone, which does the same thing pretty much...

Combat Challenge is used when an enemy adjacent to you shifts or makes an attack that doesn't include you. An AO is used when an enemy moves out of a threatened square or makes a ranged attack while adjacent to you. If the enemy is adjacent to you and fires a bow at your ally, you can use both on them, but usually there's no overlap. Also, you get a bonus to hit with AOs equal to your Wis Mod, but not with your Combat Challenge. Your AOs stop enemy movement when they hit too.

incubus5075
2009-09-30, 11:35 AM
I'm sure this will all become much clearer when i'm home reading the books/ch builder. Now i'm at work bored, surfing the web.

FlyingWhale
2009-09-30, 11:49 AM
You know, I was reading a lot about executioners axe vs mordenkrad... Well it was painfully obvious that feats taken and all that aside, the mordenkrad surpasses the EA hands down in paragon... but then, I started looking for these feats everyone talked about... Yeah, I cannot find them. Am I doing something terribly wrong? I see Hammer Rhythm in my PHB but character builder exnayed it? I dunno... But you were also looking for up to level 11... I would suggest dropping the EA and picking up the mordenkrad... and tossing retraining to get it along with HR... .... .. .....http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19720282/Mordenkrad_vs_Execution_Axe
Also http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=424209




I read every bit on these and well.. I'm just MORE confused... GAH! Good luck hombre

incubus5075
2009-09-30, 01:09 PM
What's so good about the Mordenkrad? I on a government pc so can't access those links right now. The exec. Axe has brutal 2 which is very useful. Plus the fighter has alot of powers that lets me add my con mod as dmg to axes. What about the mordenkrad makes it beat that?

Kurald Galain
2009-09-30, 01:18 PM
What's so good about the Mordenkrad?

Two words: Hammer Rhythm.

Thajocoth
2009-09-30, 01:19 PM
What's so good about the Mordenkrad? I on a government pc so can't access those links right now. The exec. Axe has brutal 2 which is very useful. Plus the fighter has alot of powers that lets me add my con mod as dmg to axes. What about the mordenkrad makes it beat that?

I happened to write this out for someone else recently, so here's a paste of that:

Modenkrad = 2d6 Brutal 1 = 2d5+2 = Average of 8 Damage per hit (per [W]) with a range of 4-12 damage.
Execution Axe = 1d12 Brutal 2 + High Crit = 1d10+2 + High Crit = Average of 7.5 + High Crit. Assuming you hit 50% of the time, High Crit adds (7.5/10) damage on average. Total Average = 8.25 damage per hit (per [W]) with a range of 3-12 damage.

For a Bugbear though... They use large weapons.
Large Mordenkrad = 2d8 Brutal 1 = 2d7+2 = Average of 10 damage per hit (per [W]) with a range of 4-16 damage.
Large Execution Axe = 2d6 Brutal 2 + High Crit = 2d4+4 + High Crit = Average of 9 + High Crit. With the same assumptions, High Crit adds (9/10) damage on average. Total Average = 9.9 damage per hit (per [W]) with a range of 6-12 damage.

That's all averages and varies with crit range and hit %...

FlyingWhale
2009-09-30, 01:37 PM
What's so good about the Mordenkrad? I on a government pc so can't access those links right now. The exec. Axe has brutal 2 which is very useful. Plus the fighter has alot of powers that lets me add my con mod as dmg to axes. What about the mordenkrad makes it beat that?

I hear that... Gov pcs... Heaven forbid you even Google something... Oh, well that's why I posted what I did... Once you get home... you go ahead and try to read all that garbage for yourself!!! I came out more confused than ever... Especially since DDI CB doesn't have Hammer Rhythm listed... HR allows you to do Con Mod on a miss with a hammer... Also a lot of the fighter powers have hammer attacks too... But really, I see the high-crit as something worth it, especially using viscous enhancements... BUT... I don't care. I use the EA anyway because I play a heroic tier and HR is paragon... ALSO I still don't know what any of it means...Sorry if my previous post was biased towards either one... They both look swell to me!

@Thajocoth~~~Thank you!!! Finally a post that I can follow! hehe Yes it does, and always has seemed to me, very close... Just a preference of how one chooses powers and playing styles... Thanks for the simple math and clean layout! :)

Dekkah
2009-09-30, 01:45 PM
Large Execution Axe = 2d6 Brutal 2 + High Crit = 2d4+4 + High Crit = Average of 9 + High Crit. With the same assumptions, High Crit adds (9/10) damage on average. Total Average = 9.9 damage per hit (per [W]) with a range of 4-12 damage.

Brutal 2, permit rerolls on 1 and 2, so the range of the large Exec axe is 6-12.
Unless they errated it, this weapon (large version) his unballanced. Add bloodclaw to it and use powers with big multiples (3W) and you'll make the stikers look weak and want to reroll bugbear fighter.

Kurald Galain
2009-09-30, 01:53 PM
Brutal 2, permit rerolls on 1 and 2, so the range of the large Exec axe is 6-12.
Unless they errated it, this weapon (large version) his unballanced. Add bloodclaw to it and use powers with big multiples (3W) and you'll make the stikers look weak and want to reroll bugbear fighter.

This is why minotaur had its "oversized weapon use" ability errata'ed out of existence, and why the same is expected for gnolls.

FlyingWhale
2009-09-30, 01:57 PM
This is why minotaur had its "oversized weapon use" ability errata'ed out of existence, and why the same is expected for gnolls.

And Goliath, and Bugbear and and and GAH... I still cannot find out if Hammer Rhythm was errata'ed out either... It's not in the DDI CB... but I see it in my PHB... CURSE YOU GOOGLE! You failed me for the last time...Again.

Thajocoth
2009-09-30, 02:02 PM
Brutal 2, permit rerolls on 1 and 2, so the range of the large Exec axe is 6-12.
Unless they errated it, this weapon (large version) his unballanced. Add bloodclaw to it and use powers with big multiples (3W) and you'll make the stikers look weak and want to reroll bugbear fighter.

Fixed my post, in both places. Thanks. The Mord still averages higher (barely) for a Bugbear though. The Ex Axe being the higher for medium size.


This is why minotaur had its "oversized weapon use" ability errata'ed out of existence, and why the same is expected for bugbears.

Fixed.

incubus5075
2009-09-30, 02:07 PM
Yea i see the math now. I do however like the axe better, just cosmetically ya know....Plus i like the high critical

incubus5075
2009-09-30, 02:35 PM
question on rain of steel power. It saws 1[W] damage, does that also include extra dmg from enchantment and feats or just straight up 1[w]?

Boci
2009-09-30, 02:45 PM
question on rain of steel power. It saws 1[W] damage, does that also include extra dmg from enchantment and feats or just straight up 1[w]?

Extra damage from enhancement and feats.

Thajocoth
2009-09-30, 02:51 PM
question on rain of steel power. It saws 1[W] damage, does that also include extra dmg from enchantment and feats or just straight up 1[w]?

It's not an attack of any kind, so look at the feats and see what they specifically say. Enhancement bonus applies to all damage dealt with the weapon, so you get that.

incubus5075
2009-09-30, 02:52 PM
Sweet thanks. I wouldn't have to ask so many questions if i wasn't on a stupid Gov computer. Has anyone checked out the DnDI assassin build? I'm playing a changling assassin and curious if anyone can see an optimized for damage build for it yet?

Mando Knight
2009-09-30, 03:05 PM
I'm playing a changling assassin and curious if anyone can see an optimized for damage build for it yet?

Hide for a couple of minutes, piling up shades on your target, then begin the fight with an attack that deals Whatever+20d6 damage. :smalltongue:

Yakk
2009-09-30, 03:42 PM
Hide for a couple of minutes, piling up shades on your target, then begin the fight with an attack that deals Whatever+20d6 damage. :smalltongue:
Um, you can only toss 4 shrouds on a target?

So you do whatever +4d6 at heroic (maybe with rerolled 1s), and +12+4d6 (with rerolled 1s and 2s) at paragon, if you hit.

incubus5075
2009-09-30, 03:43 PM
um....about that 20d6. I'm talking about the 4 ed assassin, which you can only put a max of 4 shrouds on the target...so yea, that won't work

Mando Knight
2009-09-30, 03:47 PM
Um, you can only toss 4 shrouds on a target?

Oops. I missed that. :smallredface: Serves me right for looking at the initial pdf and then forgetting about checking up on the class afterward. Still, hiding for about half a minute before starting the encounter could easily tilt the balance of the encounter towards the Assassin's favor.

NPCMook
2009-09-30, 04:06 PM
Aren't BRV fighters still restricted to Chainmail for getting Temp HP? Or was that traded off in the nerfing?

incubus5075
2009-09-30, 04:08 PM
yea that's my general tactic. Im wondering if anyone noticed some good loopholes for extra dmg. For example if i get a poisoned weapon any power i use also does poison damage. the assassin also has a feat that gives bonuses to damage, so that is an automatic 2 points of dmg right there.