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DudestMonk
2009-09-30, 11:51 AM
Hello all, I found this forum while meticulously researching options for my next character (This is day 3..I'm gonna get fired if I keep this up :P)...I'm fairly new to D&D (played once for a few hours) but I'm very much a power gamer when it comes to video game RPGs...I like to have a "perfect" character without wasted skills/spells/stat points ext.

Anyway, I wouldn't even being attempting to learn to play a Wizard as my second character in D&D if not for the fact that I have another 2+ weeks to prepare my character.

We are starting at Level 5 with 5,500 Gp. and here is what I have mocked up so far...

Human Wizard - Conjuration Focused Specialist 3/Master Specialist 2
Prohibited = Ench, Evoc, Necro

Abilities
Abrupt Jaunt (int bonus /day) (PHB II 68)


Skills (more added once skill points/stats are rolled) rolls +8 skill points at level 5(human)
Knowledge Arcana - 5
Spellcraft - 5
(obviously I have a lot to add to this section but I really can't until the day the game starts)

Feats
Spell Focus (Conj - human bonus)
Scribe Scroll or Enhanced Summoning (wizard starting)
Skill Focus Spell Craft (master specialist bonus)
1 - Extend Spell
3 - Sculpt Spell (level 3 -requires previous MM feat)

For later
9 - Arcane Disciple***Need wizdom10
12 - Metamagic School Focus
15 - Craft Contingent (lvl 11)
18 - ??

Spells

0 (all)
All non prohibited

1 (3 starting + 2 lvl + int mod)
Color Spray
Grease
Mage Armor
Enlarge Person
Sheild

Bonus Int possible spells
Benign Transposition?
Mount?
Resinous Tar?
Obscuring mist?
Stand?

2 ( 4 lvl )
Glitterdust
Baleful Transposition
Invisibility
Rope trick

Alterself???

3 (2 lvl + 1 MS)
Ice Lance
Haboob
Summon Monster III

Corpse Candle?
Phantom Steed?
Dispell?


Equipment ($5,500)

None selected yet.

Questions:

1) I see a lot of Conj builds that go to Thurmatagist (sp?) and I understand how and why but my question is how would I get all the wisdom to cast the high level companion spells without gimping my int/dex/con? Buff spells?

2) Abrupt Jaunt or Rapid Summoning? I really like the idea of Abrupt Jaunt, but I'm worried that full round summons will make me gimpy...What do you guys think? Any other ways to reduce my summoning time? How does a turn work with a summoned creature...If I summon it on my turn does it still do something or I have to wait until the next turn? what if it was a standard action?

3) Any feat suggestions/critiques would be great.

4) What do you guys think of that spell list? Any must haves I'm missing? Any crazy combo spells I should be trying to incorporate? How hard is it to get more learned spells from spell books? or does that depend on the DM?

5) Any suggestions for starting equipment (I'll admit I haven't even opened that manual yet)?

6) Any potential full spell progression builds besides 3 Conj/10 Master Specialist/5 Thurmatagist/ 2 Arch Mage?

7) You guys think its worth it to give up the caster level and go 3 Conj/7 Master Specialist/5 Malconvoker/ 5 Thurmatagist?

imperialspectre
2009-09-30, 12:33 PM
Skills (more added once skill points/stats are rolled) rolls +8 skill points at level 5(human)
Knowledge Arcana - 5
Spellcraft - 5
(obviously I have a lot to add to this section but I really can't until the day the game starts)

You know you have 8 skill points per maxed skill at 5th level, right?


Feats
Spell Focus (Conj - human bonus)
Scribe Scroll or Enhanced Summoning (wizard starting)
Skill Focus Spell Craft (master specialist bonus)
1 - Extend Spell
3 - Sculpt Spell (level 3 -requires previous MM feat)

For later
9 - Metamagic School Focus
12 - Arcane Disciple***Need wizdom10
15 - Craft Contingent (lvl 11)
18 - ??


Are you planning to metamagic a lot of conjurations? If not, why the MSF?


Questions:

1) I see a lot of Conj builds that go to Thurmatagist (sp?) and I understand how and why but my question is how would I get all the wisdom to cast the high level companion spells without gimping my int/dex/con? Buff spells?

If you get Malconvoker, the planar ally spells are automatically on your spell list. No wisdom needed.


2) Abrupt Jaunt or Rapid Summoning? I really like the idea of Abrupt Jaunt, but I'm worried that full round summons will make me gimpy...What do you guys think? Any other ways to reduce my summoning time? How does a turn work with a summoned creature...If I summon it on my turn does it still do something or I have to wait until the next turn? what if it was a standard action?

The summon doesn't act until it comes into being, which is the beginning of your next turn. If it's a standard action, it acts on your turn.

If you're planning on a full-blown summoner build, which Thaumaturgist/Malconvoker is, then Rapid Summoning. If you're going Conjuration because it's the best school ever, but not specifically focusing on summoning, then Abrupt Jaunt.


3) Any feat suggestions/critiques would be great.

Can't give you feat suggestions until you know specifically what you want to achieve. Again, the Summoning/Not-So-Summoning thing is a big deal. It will inform a great deal of your spell and feat choices.


4) What do you guys think of that spell list? Any must haves I'm missing? Any crazy combo spells I should be trying to incorporate? How hard is it to get more learned spells from spell books? or does that depend on the DM?

Bottom up: Spellbooks/scrolls/etc are entirely dependent on the DM. If you're worried about yours, grab Collegiate Wizard (feat, can't remember the source right now) to get 3 spells per casting level instead of just 2.

Benign Transposition is a must. I like Mount, but it's starting to outlast its usefulness at 5th level (at 9th, the appearance of Overland Flight means that it's never ever necessary, so prep Nerveskitter instead). Nerveskitter is a nice bonus to initiative.

Alter Self will make many DMs throw stuff at you. If you have a DM that allows it, use it to get avariel wings and stuff like that - basically, a cheap fly/swim speed.

Stinking Cloud is a must at 3rd level for a focused conjurer. That way, you have area spells that target Reflex (Grease), Will (Glitterdust) and Fort (Stinking Cloud). That's pretty awesome.

Absent specific focus, dispelling should be left to the party's divine caster if you have one. Specifically, Karma Beads and such make cleric dispelling much more efficient than wizard dispelling unless you're spending feats, substantial amounts of gold, and a number of spell slots on the task. That's an abjurer's job, you're a conjurer.


5) Any suggestions for starting equipment (I'll admit I haven't even opened that manual yet)?[/qupte]

Headband of Int +2 for 4k. Other than that, whatever you want.

[QUOTE=DudestMonk;7031017]6) Any potential full spell progression builds besides 3 Conj/10 Master Specialist/5 Thurmatagist/ 2 Arch Mage?

Conjurer 3/MS 2/Incantatrix 10/Halruaan Elder 5 is an insanely powerful party buffer and blaster.

For summoning, the build above or the malconvoker build below are probably your best bets.


7) You guys think its worth it to give up the caster level and go 3 Conj/7 Master Specialist/5 Malconvoker/ 5 Thurmatagist?

It can absolutely be worth it, if you want to focus that much on summoning. If so, snag the Criminal Apprentice feat (DMG2, 177) to get Bluff as a class skill forever, so you can max those ranks out to make the most of your malconvoker abilities. Also, don't go MS 7, then Malconvoker - you want Malconvoker 1 at ECL 6.

The caster level isn't that big of a deal as a wizard - you're just slowed down to sorcerer progression, which sucks, but properly-optimized sorcerers do just fine and they're weaker than you in every other way to start out.

ericgrau
2009-09-30, 12:58 PM
1: Enlarge person and shield are kinda weak. They're doable but you need time before combat to make it worth it. I'd get feather fall, unseen servant or [empowered] ray of enfeeblement. Put utility stuff on scrolls. Though if you need a lot of a certain scroll you can put it in your spellbook and scribe a bunch of them, without ever preparing it for a dungeon.

2: Rope trick is a trap unless you have a generous DM or one that doesn't read the spell. Can't bring in extra-dimensional spaces, magically detectable and dispellable, etc. And you need to extend it just to sleep; by the time you hit level 8 smart monsters should have more counters. Maybe replace with minor image or a 2nd copy of another spell.

3: Summon monster is weak. If you need it for utility stuff try summon monster I. I'd get dispel later, along with a bunch of other utility spells (like phantom steed) and buffs to be cast before combat, but not as your highest level spells. Good 3rd level combat spells include sleet storm, flame arrow and haste.

Equipment: A rod of lesser extend is cheap and saves you a feat, unless you stick with sculpt spell. A ring of protection +1 helps touch AC. Get tons of utility scrolls with level 1 and maybe level 2 spells, to be ready for a variety of situations. Like instead of preparing 1 mount spell that you'll almost never use, get 1 scroll for each party member and be ready for 6 sessions from now when you need a hasty getaway. Other misc stuff like healing potions, a handy haversack, other wondrous items (look at table sorted by price for the cheap ones), etc. can burn the rest of your gold.

DudestMonk
2009-09-30, 01:01 PM
IMPERIAL SPECTRE

First off thanks a lot for taking the time to answer pretty much all of my questions. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah I know I have a lot more skill planning to do...It's just really hard to do when almost all of it depends on the dice and I can't roll out stats until the game starts. Never the less if you have any skill suggestions run them by me. I know I need those 2 for MS.

So Malconvoker basically just eliminates the need to take the Arcane Disciple feat and bump up my Wis?

I was planning on MetaMagicing a lot of clouds with Sculpt...as described in "The Conjurers Handbook" it sounds uber...If I go Malconvoker I'd drop most if not all that MetaMagic probably.

Thanks for explaining the summoning rules to me :)

Thanks for the spell commentary...Don't know if anyone is playing a Divine caster yet...I guess it'll be safe to assume so, healing is handy :P

Of course greater knowledge always leads to more questions:

If I go the Malconvoker route will it greatly diminish my battlefield control abilities?...I really like all the AOE/Traps/Teleportation stuff...but I also want to be able to summon stuff that kills other stuff. Is there any way to get those level 9 spells back?

I'll have to check out the enchantrix build, I was planning on giving up that school but who knows. Buffing wasn't so much the plan as total control.

I know about the level skipping and returning thing (I've read The Conjurers Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19863086/The_Conjurers_Handbook?num=10&pg=1) and Mastering the Malconvoker (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872758/Mastering_the_Malconvoker?post_id=338474262#338474 262), I just thought I'd simplify the write up. However thanks for mentioning it anyway.

...man I thought it was hard to decide on a class in WoW...This is the major leagues in comparison.

ERIC

Thanks....my DM is rather inexperienced so who knows what will fly. Unseen servant sounds really cool but I was planning on getting Phantasmal Thief at some point.

Also this is spells known...I haven't gotten into planning daily spells yet.

Eldariel
2009-09-30, 01:32 PM
- One incredible Conjuration-spell you're lacking: Web. Also, Fog Cloud is good.

- Malconvoker doesn't actually get Planar Allies, it just lowers your Planar Bindings. You'd need Planar Ally anyways.

- If going Malconvoker, you absolutely should pick up Rapid Summoning ACF instead of Abrupt Jaunt. Abrupt Jaunt is incredible, but as a summoner, Rapid Summoning is borderline necessary (among others, it enables Quickening your summons and means you don't need to plan a turn ahead just to do something). Also, get the lower level Summon Monsters if going Malconvoker.

- Malconvoker will delay your casting by 1 level so yeah, it'll slightly diminish your battlefield control, but not enough to be a problem.

- Pick Extend Spell. Extended Rope Tricks are awesome, and overall, Extend Spell is at its best early on.

- Items: Get Heward's Fortifying Bedroll [Complete Mage]. Second as soon as you can afford it (costs 3000gp a piece). Also, Healing Belt [Magic Item Compendium]. Even the almighty Headband of Intellect can wait for those. After that, yeah, Headband and then the rest.

Akal Saris
2009-09-30, 01:51 PM
Eldariel's advice is solid (as usual!)

I would just avoid thaumaturgist - it's better for clerics than it is for wizards.

For a summoning-based wizard, I'd go Wiz 3/Master Spec. 2/Malconvoker 5/Master Spec. +8/Archmage 2. Pretty simple stuff - your battlefield control will be slightly weaker from losing 1 level, but you'll still be able to cast 9th level spells at the end. If you're going this route, grab Rapid Summoning and Augment Summoning.

For just a standard conjurer focused on fogs and teleports, maybe just Wiz 3/Master Specialist 10/Fatespinner 4/Archmage 3. Fatespinner (C. Arcane) basically helps you to bump up the DCs for your spells a little bit. If you're going this route, grab Abrupt Jaunt and a fighter bonus feat in place of scribe scroll (from Unearthed Arcana).

By the way, you're missing a 6th level feat slot there - bump the metamagic school focus into there. Being able to sculpt 3 spells per day without a level increase is very, very nice in my opinion.

Good luck, and have fun!

Keld Denar
2009-09-30, 01:59 PM
Eh, Incantatrix is a bit too much cheeze for me. I'd stick with more of a straight up build like you have. That said, MS is kinda lackluster for a Conjourer after 4 or 5, depending. I'd jump out. Also, it might consider dropping 2000g on a visit to the Frog God's Fane (CScoundrel) which nets you permanent use of the Skill Focus: Knowledge(Religion) feat. This gets you into the PrC Divine Oracle in Complete Divine, which, at 2nd level, gets you Evasion. Then, so long as you have 3 metamagic or crafting feats, you also qualify for Loremaster, which can get you a bit of a boost to one of your bad saves, or give you a +1 to hit with RTAs or such, and a bonus feat. Yay feats! That'll lead you right up to Archmage.

Also, I notice a distinct lack of Web and Kelgore's Grave Mist on your spell list. Awesome spells...

Also, ask your DM about Anticipate Teleport and teleportations you cast. As written, if you have AT running on yourself, if you try to Abrupt Jaunt, you get phased out for 1 round. Same problem if you try to Benign Transposition some friends. Its a good spell, but make sure it won't completely screw you before using it!

DudestMonk
2009-09-30, 02:03 PM
The more I read the more I'm liking Malconvoker...I just found the book for it.

I'm going to spend some time planning out an MC to see what kind of spells I'd be running ext. and I'll return with a build :) Any good ideas for getting out of trouble without Abrupt Jaunt?

Feat suggestions?

Combos?

I know I'd loose a caster level does that mean I have no access to level 9 spells or only base 3/day instead of base 4?

Keld Denar
2009-09-30, 02:10 PM
Best way to stay out of trouble without a huge action drain is Greater Mirror Image (PHBII 4th level, Immediate Action), Contingencies and/or Celerity, and stacking on temp HP (Minor Shapeshift, False Life, Hero's Feast, Heart of Earth, etc).

Other than that, you're gonna have to drop an action to do something like regular Mirror Image, Displacement, Blinking, Greater Blinking, etc

DudestMonk
2009-09-30, 02:18 PM
Thanks Keld... I'm trying to build a spell/feat list now that will hopefully work out.

Focused specialist? yay or nay? I'm thinking I might need 6 schools as a malconvoker to use enchantments on planar binding creatures....or what would I give up instead?

Mushroom Ninja
2009-09-30, 02:34 PM
I'd go FS and drop Evocation, Enchantment, and Necromancy.

aje8
2009-09-30, 02:45 PM
Always go FS unless domain Wizard variant is allowed as that variant is awesome to the point of being borderline overpowered, though both are far far better than a genralist.

Feel free to go Malconvoker, but realize that you are weakening and focusing youself. Generally, a Malconvoker isn't as strong as a regular Wizard w/ PrCs though it is still quite a good class.

Keld Denar
2009-09-30, 03:01 PM
Well, it depends on how much you want to cheeze out Planar Binding. If you get creative enough, you can replicate like, 99% of the best spells in Core just by binding creatures with SLAs and SUs that do what you want to do. Need some restoration? Bind a Dwarven Ancestor (who, IIRC, cast spells as 7th level clerics, yay Restoration!). Need a Glitterdust or Fog spell, figure out which one of the 101 mephits holds the flavor you are cravin. In a pinch, bind a Nightmare, hop on, PlaneShift somewhere cool, then Astral Projection back onto the prime. AP has no duration, and lasts until your proxy is slain. Now you ARE that invincible wizard that everyone talks about. If your proxy DOES get slain...bind a new Nightmare and try again. It's as close to an infinite lives cheat code as you'll find in D&D without some HARDCORE Affinity Field/Synchronicity abuse.

Generally not as powerful as casting your highest level spells, but it makes up for it in versatility with a little creative thought.

DudestMonk
2009-09-30, 04:26 PM
Would "Practiced Spellcaster" give me back my spell level even though wizard has 4HD?

Also this is what I have so far

Feats
Human - Improved Initiative (PHB)
Wizard - Augment Summoning
MS bonus Skill Focus Spellcraft
1 Spell Focus: Conjuration
3
6
9 Summon Elemental (CM)
12 Craft Contingent Spell (CA)
15
18


1
Grease
Mage Armor
Benign Transposition
Obscuring Mist
Color Spray
Enlarge Person
Shield

2
Web
Baleful Transposition
Chain of Eyes
Glitterdust
Summon Monster II?

3
Summon Monster III
Mage Armor, Mass
Haboob

woodenbandman
2009-09-30, 04:28 PM
Not a spell level, no. A caster level. Its main function is to increase duration/d6s of spells you cast, but your spells per day table remains as it was.

Darrin
2009-09-30, 05:07 PM
Just wanted to toss a few things out...

There's an optional spell component in Complete Mage, Golden Desert Honey, that can reduce the casting time of summon spells down to a standard action. 300 GP per dose, so not exactly cheap, but a good way to start a combat so your enemies have something to focus on while you get the rest of your summons out, or if you're too close to melee range and don't want to get pounded by meatbags trying to blow your Concentration.

Another good tactic/dirty trick: Summon while invisibile. Doesn't count as an attack.

Frost Mage from Frostburn gives you access to Conjure Ice Beast (eventually... grrrr). Although these aren't summons, they do give you access to creatures from the Summon Nature's Ally list. However, some of the more powerful ice beasts tend to be the monstrous centipedes. Larger size means more construct HP and you can give them the Engulf special attack, which can be a nice save-or-lose with a little luck on the Ref save. Another nice perk for ice beasts: the cold aura ability activated as a free action does 1d6 cold damage to all targets within 10', *no save*. Piddly stuff at low levels, but if you conjure a bajillion little beasts with a big spell, it adds up nicely.

Hmmm... what else. Well, most summoned creatures have an Int of 3 and understand Common by default. Give them a Pearl of Speech (MIC p. ???, 900 GP) and they can speak enough to activate command-word items. Talisman of the Disk + fast animal = "Pouncing" Sidecar.

aje8
2009-09-30, 10:27 PM
Well, it depends on how much you want to cheeze out Planar Binding. If you get creative enough, you can replicate like, 99% of the best spells in Core just by binding creatures with SLAs and SUs that do what you want to do. Need some restoration? Bind a Dwarven Ancestor (who, IIRC, cast spells as 7th level clerics, yay Restoration!). Need a Glitterdust or Fog spell, figure out which one of the 101 mephits holds the flavor you are cravin. In a pinch, bind a Nightmare, hop on, PlaneShift somewhere cool, then Astral Projection back onto the prime. AP has no duration, and lasts until your proxy is slain. Now you ARE that invincible wizard that everyone talks about. If your proxy DOES get slain...bind a new Nightmare and try again. It's as close to an infinite lives cheat code as you'll find in D&D without some HARDCORE Affinity Field/Synchronicity abuse.

Generally not as powerful as casting your highest level spells, but it makes up for it in versatility with a little creative thought.

Two problems:
1. Planar Binding is a totally reasonable spell to ban, it's right up there with polymorph. But assuming it's legal, see 2.
2. You can just cast it as a non-malconvoker. While the spell is more effective for the Malconvoker, not better than another spell level.

ericgrau
2009-09-30, 10:33 PM
Also this is spells known...I haven't gotten into planning daily spells yet.
Ah, well, potential daily spells take 1st priority anyway. But figure out your scroll spells too, and if you need many copies of a certain spell, then like I said put it in your book so you can scribe it later... without ever preparing it for anything else. Right now you'll probably only want 1st level scrolls, maybe a couple nice 2nd level ones. But later you should have a lot of 2nd level ones too, and can likewise figure if you want to scribe certain ones from your spellbook to save money.

Zaq
2009-10-01, 12:38 AM
There's a school of thought that says that Invisible Spell, a +0 metamagic from Cityscape, makes your summons invisible. Worth checking out.

DudestMonk
2009-10-01, 11:35 AM
After another day researching, reading more guide and taking into account all the wonderful help I got here this is what I've come up with...Feedback is still appreciated but I'm sticking with this PrC progression...it's soooo smooth.

Wizard - Conjuration 5 > Mage of the Arcane Order 7> Master Specialist 3 > Archmage 5
Focused Specialist
Prohibited = Ench (or should I eliminate Illu?), Evoc, Necro

Abilities
Abrupt Jaunt (int bonus /day) (PHB II 68)

Feats
Human- Improved Initiative
Wizard- Scribe Scroll
1- Spell Focus (Conj)
3- Cooperative Spell worthless, damn you arcane order!
6- MM School Conjuration
Arcane Order- Sculpt Spell
9- Summon Elemental
12- Craft Contingent Spell
Master Specialist- Skill Focus Spell Craft
15- Spell Focus (Trans?) - for Archmage
18- Alacritous Cogitation

Spells

0 (all)

1 (3 starting + 2 lvl + int mod)
Grease
Mage Armor
Enlarge Person
Benign Transposition
Wall of Smoke

Bonus Int possible spells
Resinous Tar
Obscuring mist
Color Spray
Sheild

2 ( 4 lvl )
Glitterdust
Web
Baleful Transposition
Invisibility?

3 (2 lvl)
Sleet Storm
Summon Monster III

I could still use a little feedback on spells...Since I'm entering at level 5 it'll be hard to judge what the DM will throw at me/how likely it is that I will be getting extra spells from spellbooks.

I'm also still torn between giving up Illusion or Enchantment...Enchantment might be really handy for influencing Planar Binding Calls...Illusion gives me invisibility and shadow Evoc but I can't see much more use for it....I guess either or as once I hit level 7 with Arcane Order I will be able to pull some prohibs.

The other thing I can't decide is a 5th level Wiz feat...Spontaneous Div?

I know some people advised against SM III but I can't see why...it seems too handy to give up, even just for the ability pool of the summons/scouting/little extra meat.

jiriku
2009-10-01, 11:53 AM
At middle-to-high levels, quicken spell is very much worth the feat slot. A quickened grease, or web can take several monsters out of action for a round or two without absorbing your standard action, while a quickened stinking cloud, evard's black tentacles, or solid fog can eliminate multiple enemies for the duration of the fight.

DudestMonk
2009-10-01, 11:58 AM
Duly noted... If I deem it necessary I might replace "summon elemental" or "craft contingent" in exchange for that...Or buy the Rod.

I'm still working out equipment :smallbiggrin:

Edit: I just remembered why I didn't take Quicken...The pre-reqs = like every other MM feat. I don't think I can pull that off without taking a lot of MM that I won't use...I'll save up for the Rod...also I'd only need the lesser to cast those spells.

DudestMonk
2009-10-01, 01:27 PM
Okay stupid question....I can learn a spell from its associated scroll right? So if I buy a bunch of low level scrolls right off I can just tell my DM I spent X-days copying them to my spell book before the game begins?

Akal Saris
2009-10-01, 01:48 PM
Correct. There's also another cost to scribe spells as well, at 100g/spell level in addition to the scroll's cost. You can also ask if the character can scribe it from a friendly wizard's spellbook, which has a different (cheaper) cost than a scroll, listed in the 'wizards and learning new spells' ish section.

Keld Denar
2009-10-01, 02:07 PM
Edit: I just remembered why I didn't take Quicken...The pre-reqs = like every other MM feat. I don't think I can pull that off without taking a lot of MM that I won't use...I'll save up for the Rod...also I'd only need the lesser to cast those spells.

I think you might be looking at Sudden Quicken, in Complete Arcane, instead of Quicken Spell in the PHB. Quicken Spell doesn't have ANY prereqs. The +4 level mod is something you just have to deal with. There are a fair number of really good low level spells that, when quickened, are totally worthwhile. For example, Quickened Ray of Clumsiness (SpC) + any Ref save or die (Bands of Steel, Freezing Fog, etc) is a crazy awesome combo.

And yea, MM Rods of Quicken are HORRIBLY cost prohibitive. The Lesser Rod don't even come into the 50% WBL range until like, ECL11. A better item is the MIC's Circlet of Rapid Casting for 15,000g. It has 3 charges and you can burn 1 to quicken any 1st or 2nd level spell, 2 to quicken a 2nd level spell, or 3 to quicken a 4th level spell. If you are getting that from MIC, you are probably also using the rules that let you add basic stats (like +int) to existing items, meaning you can have a Circlet of Rapid Casting that gives +2, +4, or +6 int for only the difference in base price instead of with the 1.5x multiplier. This is a must have for any wizard over like, level 9 or so.

Eldariel
2009-10-01, 02:19 PM
Illusion is nuts, Enchantment is not nuts. Keep Illusion. Shadow Evocation, Shadow Conjuration, Mirror Image, Blur, Displacement, Shadow Walk, Simulacrum, Greater Invisibility, bunch of Will-SoDs...banning Illusion is a horrible idea even if you aren't going to utilize a single Illusion over the entire game (and if you can't think of solutions for most situations with an Illusion, you aren't trying hard enough).

Enchantment is mostly Will SoDs and boosts; handy, but falters before Mind-Affecting immunity which is very common. And other classes replicate Morale Boosts.

DudestMonk
2009-10-01, 02:47 PM
Correct. There's also another cost to scribe spells as well, at 100g/spell level in addition to the scroll's cost. You can also ask if the character can scribe it from a friendly wizard's spellbook, which has a different (cheaper) cost than a scroll, listed in the 'wizards and learning new spells' ish section.

Thanks for clearing up that spell book question...sent a message to my DM already.


I think you might be looking at Sudden Quicken, in Complete Arcane, instead of Quicken Spell in the PHB. Quicken Spell doesn't have ANY prereqs. The +4 level mod is something you just have to deal with. There are a fair number of really good low level spells that, when quickened, are totally worthwhile. For example, Quickened Ray of Clumsiness (SpC) + any Ref save or die (Bands of Steel, Freezing Fog, etc) is a crazy awesome combo.

And yea, MM Rods of Quicken are HORRIBLY cost prohibitive. The Lesser Rod don't even come into the 50% WBL range until like, ECL11. A better item is the MIC's Circlet of Rapid Casting for 15,000g. It has 3 charges and you can burn 1 to quicken any 1st or 2nd level spell, 2 to quicken a 2nd level spell, or 3 to quicken a 4th level spell. If you are getting that from MIC, you are probably also using the rules that let you add basic stats (like +int) to existing items, meaning you can have a Circlet of Rapid Casting that gives +2, +4, or +6 int for only the difference in base price instead of with the 1.5x multiplier. This is a must have for any wizard over like, level 9 or so.

Ahh yeah I was looking at the wrong feat... I dunno what to get rid of bump out of the way for it besides initiative at level 1 or my 9/12 slots. That Cooporative casting sits there like a big black hole on my feats list....I suppose I still do have 1 more feat from wiz level 5 that I could use on it...but spontaneous div might be more important to get while I can.


Illusion is nuts, Enchantment is not nuts. Keep Illusion. Shadow Evocation, Shadow Conjuration, Mirror Image, Blur, Displacement, Shadow Walk, Simulacrum, Greater Invisibility, bunch of Will-SoDs...banning Illusion is a horrible idea even if you aren't going to utilize a single Illusion over the entire game (and if you can't think of solutions for most situations with an Illusion, you aren't trying hard enough).

Enchantment is mostly Will SoDs and boosts; handy, but falters before Mind-Affecting immunity which is very common. And other classes replicate Morale Boosts.

Yeah loosing enchantment seems to be the consensus across the interwebz. I'll take your advice.

aje8
2009-10-01, 03:01 PM
Illusion is the third best school IMO. It's really good. I'd never consider dropping it, but I do know people who would..... regardless it's not comparable to enchantment.

Your PrC build is very solid.


2 ( 4 lvl )
Glitterdust
Web
Baleful Transposition
Invisibility?

3 (2 lvl)
Sleet Storm
Summon Monster III

Invisibility is probably better than Baleful Transposition......... additionally, you really just want to get a defensive spell in there.

With regards to your third level spells, I would suggest taking Stinking Cloud for battlefeild control instead of Sleet Storm. Summon Monster 3 is really good, but Haste or Fly might be even better for you..... it's close.

Also, why do only have 2 spell known for level 3? You're going to have at least 4 slots because of Focused Specalist, thus you probably want to buy some scrolls to get more spells known.

Oh, and one other thing: If you want to, you can Improved Intiative as a bonus feat at lv.1 (via Martial Wizard variant UA) instead of Scribe Scroll and thus gain an additional feat slot. I reccomend doing this.

Gnorman
2009-10-01, 03:21 PM
If you end up going the summoning/Malconvoker route, please read this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5573.0).

(Yes, I wrote it.)

DudestMonk
2009-10-01, 04:05 PM
Illusion is the third best school IMO. It's really good. I'd never consider dropping it, but I do know people who would..... regardless it's not comparable to enchantment.

Your PrC build is very solid.



Invisibility is probably better than Baleful Transposition......... additionally, you really just want to get a defensive spell in there.

With regards to your third level spells, I would suggest taking Stinking Cloud for battlefeild control instead of Sleet Storm. Summon Monster 3 is really good, but Haste or Fly might be even better for you..... it's close.

Also, why do only have 2 spell known for level 3? You're going to have at least 4 slots because of Focused Specalist, thus you probably want to buy some scrolls to get more spells known.

Oh, and one other thing: If you want to, you can Improved Intiative as a bonus feat at lv.1 (via Martial Wizard variant UA) instead of Scribe Scroll and thus gain an additional feat slot. I reccomend doing this.

Yeah I know about that variant but Scribe scroll strikes me as being very useful for keeping "once in a blue moon" spells on hand...I don't really think I want to give that up..although once I reach arcane order 2 the spell pool should help to fix that problem.

Yeah I just figured out that I can copy spells from scrolls, so I'm going to have to take some of my starting gold and use that to augment my spell book. I'm just waiting for my DM to get back to me, cause depending on how he rules it maybe I can get a few free or a little cheaper...considering I'm coming from a wizards school full of other wizards who know me and would likely share their spells....If not I'll have to decide how much money I can really spend on scrolls/book mats. 5,500gp seemed like a lot yesterday but I think I'll be kissing a large amount of it goodbye due to spell costs leaving me pretty ill equipped, unless my DM decides to take pity on the caster.

DudestMonk
2009-10-01, 04:21 PM
If you end up going the summoning/Malconvoker route, please read this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5573.0).

(Yes, I wrote it.)

Thanks, but I think I've settled on Control Caster over Summoner.

When I found the PrC progression I'm using now it was decided. STOP TEMPTING ME! :smallwink:

Gnorman
2009-10-01, 04:34 PM
But... ultimate control over the Lower Planes!

Supreme action economy! And when all that fails, you're still a friggin' WIZARD!

Armies of demons bowing to your arcane might!

Succubi at your beck and call!

Mmmm, succubi...

DudestMonk
2009-10-01, 04:41 PM
I know man...

It took me two days to decide between the two. I just didn't want to loose a caster level...

Plus this build makes me a more versatile wizard, and I'll still be able to do all the planar bindings (and earlier in fact). It will just be a little more difficult to make deals.

I will miss that whole 2 colossal spiders with 400hp or whatever it is thing though, and the flavor on the Malconvoker is awesome.