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Stegyre
2009-10-03, 12:41 AM
There is already this great thread on raising CL (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872350/Raising_Caster_Level), but how many ways are there to raise manifester level for psionics?

This is a work in progress, and I am editing in information as we go:

Feats
Practiced Manifester: +4, up to the level of your hit dice (just as with Practiced Spellcaster).
Overchannel: +1 to +3, taking damage. (Talented will eliminate the damage for overchanneling low-level powers.) Does not stack with Wildsurge (below).
Stygian Archon: +1 to negative energy powers.
Envoy Cognizance: use elemental envoy to gain +1 to powers with the same energy descriptor.

Class Abilities
Wildsurge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/wilder.htm#wildSurge) Wilder class ability: +1 to +6(!!), at the risk of psychic enervation; cannot be stacked with overchannel.
Life Mantle (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070314a): this gives +1 ML for powers from this mantle.

Items
(none)


New Section: reducing PP cost. Reducing PP cost is essentially like a spell caster getting more spells, so while not the same as boosting ML, these are still very important for psionic characters:

Feats
Earth Power: lowers pp cost by 1.
Midnight Augmentation (MoI 38): reduces the power point cost of augmenting a power for each point of essentia invested; specific to a single power per day.
Metapower: lowers pp cost by 2 for a selected power + metapsionic combination (to a minimum of +0 for the metapsionic enhancement).

Class Abilities
Dominant Ideal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a): Ardent ACF: reduce augmentation cost by 2 pp for powers in one (dominant) mantle.

Items
Torc of Power Preservation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#torcofPowerPreservation): lowers the cost of manifesting powers by 1.
Power Link shards (MoE 115): these do not actually reduce power point cost, but they do give a +2 pp augmentation boost, which may even exceed your ML limit. (As a character could have multiple embedded Power Links and draw upon all of them for a single power, this could rapidly become very, very broken.)


On the subject of whether CL boosts also apply to ML:

Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics. SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#psionicsMagicTransparenc y)

Violet Octopus
2009-10-03, 01:19 AM
Torc of Power Preservation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#torcofPowerPreservation): lowers the cost of manifesting powers by 1. Whether that allows you to augment a power to more than you otherwise could is unclear.

Stegyre
2009-10-03, 09:39 AM
Torc of Power Preservation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#torcofPowerPreservation): lowers the cost of manifesting powers by 1. Whether that allows you to augment a power to more than you otherwise could is unclear.
Very good. I had forgotten that priceless gem, but does anyone want to weigh in on the RAW question: does a torque allow one to exceed the ML cap (which effectively does raise ML)?

Adumbration
2009-10-03, 09:50 AM
There's also the Earth Power feat from Races of Stone that does the same. I believe they stack.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-03, 09:52 AM
RAW, any spell effect or magic item that raises caster level without specifying a type of spellcasting (Arcane or Divine) affects Psionics, so a good portion of the stuff listed in that thread will affect a Psion too.

One thing though: The Sage ruled that if a Manifester some how managed to qualify for a Reserve feat, only the CL increase would apply to his powers. He wouldn't be able to use it's effect unless he also had spellcasting abilities. This contradicts the RAW, as feats do not apply to the Magic-Psionic Transparency unless they say so. Make of that what you will.

Gralamin
2009-10-03, 09:55 AM
Very good. I had forgotten that priceless gem, but does anyone want to weigh in on the RAW question: does a torque allow one to exceed the ML cap (which effectively does raise ML)?

It really depends on how you parse the steps of the rules:
1) If Standard Cost is determined before you can augment, then it decreases the cost by 1 before you augment, letting you get +1 more.
2) If you choose the total cost of the power and then apply the Torc, then it merely saves you a power point.

If I was to guess which one is intended, I'd say the second.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2009-10-03, 10:03 AM
This thread is made of win. The torc does work but its been errata'd to be 3/day.

The incarnum feat midnight augmentation will help also (it lowers costs). If you are going to always use a linked power or some other metapower, there is a feat to permanently reduce cost that way.

Stegyre
2009-10-03, 10:33 AM
RAW, any spell effect or magic item that raises caster level without specifying a type of spellcasting (Arcane or Divine) affects Psionics, so a good portion of the stuff listed in that thread will affect a Psion too.
That's great, but can you get me a citation? (Either a link or a book+page would be great.) As you may notice from the OP, I'm very big on documentation, so no one needs to take my word for something. :smallsmile:


One thing though: The Sage ruled that if a Manifester some how managed to qualify for a Reserve feat, only the CL increase would apply to his powers. He wouldn't be able to use it's effect unless he also had spellcasting abilities. This contradicts the RAW, as feats do not apply to the Magic-Psionic Transparency unless they say so. Make of that what you will.I agree with you on RAW, which is why I took the position I did in the OP. Do you have the Sage citation? I'd like to take a look at it. Maybe I can at least add it to the OP for consideration.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-03, 10:37 AM
This thread is made of win. The torc does work but its been errata'd to be 3/day.


Not errated, there are now two Torcs.
Torc A (XPH) is more expensive but unlimited.
Torc B (MIC) is cheaper but 3/day.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-03, 10:40 AM
That's great, but can you get me a citation? (Either a link or a book+page would be great.) As you may notice from the OP, I'm very big on documentation, so no one needs to take my word for something. :smallsmile:

SRD, Psionic Powers Overview. Psionic-Magic Transparency:


Psionics-Magic Transparency

Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.

A spell effect or magic item that increases caster level without specifying Arcane or Divine affects Psionic powers.


I agree with you on RAW, which is why I took the position I did in the OP. Do you have the Sage citation? I'd like to take a look at it. Maybe I can at least add it to the OP for consideration.

That I don't have. Google may be able to find it.

Gralamin
2009-10-03, 10:41 AM
Not errated, there are now two Torcs.
Torc A (XPH) is more expensive but unlimited.
Torc B (MIC) is cheaper but 3/day.

Incorrect. MIC replaced XPH as a source for items. The MIC one is the only one that technically exists.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-03, 10:42 AM
Where did you read that?
That seems more an assumption than a fact.

Stegyre
2009-10-03, 10:48 AM
Where did you read that?
That seems more an assumption than a fact.
It may take a little digging, but I think Gralamin is right on this: MIC explicitly states that it has recalculated existing items. (If memory serves, the statement is early on, and is in the context of, "Please don't be surprised that some of your items are now more or less expensive than they used to be.")

Gralamin
2009-10-03, 10:52 AM
Where did you read that?
That seems more an assumption than a fact.

Read page 3 to 4 of the MIC. Notice how it states multiple times that it has revised items. Notice how the Sidebar on page 4 states that the new item is to be used instead of the old ones.

There is a more precise version somewhere, I just can't be bothered to find it.

Samb
2009-10-03, 12:39 PM
If magic-psionics transparency is in effect, then could you pick practised spellcaster and boost you ML by another 4?

Reducing cost only reduces cost it doesn't raise ML for the sake of manifester checks.

That being said, it does allow you to put more PP into augmenting or applying a metapsionic feat, which could affect the DC, damage.

But your ML for overcoming PR/SR is still based on your ML, so wildsurge, overchannel, and Practised manifester are really the only way to "really" increase MLs. Duration and range are the main things that are affected by ML and they would not be effected by lowered cost either.

Just to add other stuff that cut costs:
dominant ideal ACF of ardents: cuts augmentation and metapsionic costs by 2.
Metapower: permanently apply a metapsionic feat on a power and reduce costs by 2.

Both from CPsi.

tyckspoon
2009-10-03, 10:58 PM
If magic-psionics transparency is in effect, then could you pick practised spellcaster and boost you ML by another 4?


Only if you've lost a lot of ML's somewhere; the up-to-HD cap is still in effect, so you can't really boost your ML so much as catch up. I don't think there are any psionic classes that allow for something like the Wild Mage trick.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-04, 07:32 AM
If magic-psionics transparency is in effect, then could you pick practised spellcaster and boost you ML by another 4?



Psionics-Magic Transparency

Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.

As Sinfire earlier said, no reference to feats here. So no dice on the Practiced Spellcaster, I'm guessing.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-04, 08:10 AM
Only if you've lost a lot of ML's somewhere; the up-to-HD cap is still in effect, so you can't really boost your ML so much as catch up. I don't think there are any psionic classes that allow for something like the Wild Mage trick.

Yes, but oh, how it can catch you up.

For example:

Wizard 4 / Ardent 1

Take Practiced Manifester at level 3.

When you take your level 1 of Ardent, you're ML 5, and can select powers up to level 3, due to the wording of their power acquisition.

Next level, Cerebremancer FTW.

Samb
2009-10-04, 02:57 PM
Yes, but oh, how it can catch you up.

For example:

Wizard 4 / Ardent 1

Take Practiced Manifester at level 3.

When you take your level 1 of Ardent, you're ML 5, and can select powers up to level 3, due to the wording of their power acquisition.

Next level, Cerebremancer FTW.

Or ardent12/warmind8 to gain 2 BAB (and that extra attack) and sweeping strike.

Zaq
2009-10-04, 06:40 PM
The 4th-level LEM Utterance "Caster Lens" (Tome of Magic, obviously) explicitly says that it boosts either CL or ML by 2 for three rounds. You don't even need to invoke transparency; it explicitly gives you ML.

Of course, that means you have to have a mid-to-high Truenamer on your team. Which is probably a bad idea. (Yes, I'm playing a 12th level Truenamer right now. No, this doesn't mean you should. Trust me.) But if you have access to a truly perfect Magic Mart (for example, in Sigil), you could get a wand of it.

Stegyre
2009-10-04, 06:44 PM
I really don't think you can stack Practiced Spellcaster with Practiced Manifester. The transparency rule is a bit vague on any application of CL boosts to ML, but I could readily see something like Harmonic Chorus (one of my personal favorites) boosting ML to the same extent it does CL.

But for the two Practiced feats, you have a psionic version that covers the very same ground as the spell version. YMMV, but I'd be puzzled if most GMs allowed this. :smallwink:

(For those who haven't noticed, I continue to update the OP. More suggestions continue to be welcome, and discussion is always welcome: one thing I don't require is for people to agree with me.)

EDIT:
The 4th-level LEM Utterance "Caster Lens" (Tome of Magic, obviously) explicitly says that it boosts either CL or ML by 2 for three rounds. . . . Of course, that means you have to have a mid-to-high Truenamer on your team.
:smallfurious: Now I've got to lay hold of ToM and read up on Truenamers, something I've never liked from the moment I heard about them. Curse you, Zaq! You and your little dog Toto, too! :smallsigh:

Norr
2009-11-15, 05:20 PM
I'm actually working on a build (not all powerful, but meh) which needs a high ML, specifically a minimum of 23 at lvl 20. It makes it harder that all psionic PrCs take away ML (this particular one takeas away two).

However, I've noticed that using practiced manifester to negate the two-ML gap, I can raise my ML quite high using the following and applying the magic-psionic transparency rule:
Illumian: The Krau sigil gives +2 ML
Ioun Stone (Orange Prism) gives +1 ML per stone, 30 000 gp each
Primitive Caster fron Frostburn: +3 ML (psionic powers naturally lack all three components, allowing you to add them)
Metamagic Vigor: +1 ML, but you need Psionic Meditation to keep focused
Overchannel: +3 ML, offset the hp damage with Vigor
Total from race and three feats: +9 ML, add as many Ioun Stones as you can afford.

Samb
2009-11-15, 05:38 PM
Here's another item that is related but doesn't fit into raising ML or reducing cost.

Power link shards from magic of eberron allows you to gives you an extra 2PP on manifesting powers beyond your ML. Usable 3/day, but you can decide how often to apply it (+6 PP once a day), and if you have multiples of this you can stack them as well.

Kalashtar only and these are very rare items since they can only be found in Xen'dirk, or if you are insane enough Argonnessen.

Stegyre
2009-11-15, 07:33 PM
I'm actually working on a build (not all powerful, but meh) which needs a high ML, specifically a minimum of 23 at lvl 20.
A number of comments:

It makes it harder that all psionic PrCs take away ML (this particular one takeas away two).
"All" psionic PrCs do not take away ML. Cerebremancer (XPH), Soul Manifester (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a), and Anarchic Initiate (CPsi) all grant full ML progression.

Moreover, using Ardent as the psionic base class, along with Practiced Manifester, will give you full power progression. You still lose the power points and extra powers of the "lost" levels, but you are able to select 9th level powers at character level 17.

Ioun Stone (Orange Prism) gives +1 ML per stone, 30 000 gp each
You cannot stack multiple bonuses from the same source. You can get +1 ML from one Orange Ioun Stone; no more.

Primitive Caster fron Frostburn: +3 ML (psionic powers naturally lack all three components, allowing you to add them)Metamagic Vigor: +1 ML, but you need Psionic Meditation to keep focused
Feats are not subject to the transparency rule: they are not spells, spell-like abilities, or items. Neither Primitive Caster nor Metamagic Vigor will apply to ML.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-15, 07:38 PM
"All" psionic PrCs do not take away ML. Cerebremancer (XPH), Soul Manifester (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a), and Anarchic Initiate (CPsi) all grant full ML progression.

Cerebremancer requires a dip out of psionic progression to pick up spells, Soul Manifester is from a web enhancement and thus poorly known (also the feat requirements to pick up all those melds are awful), and Anarchic Initiate was listed as the single exception.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-15, 08:08 PM
Cerebremancer requires a dip out of psionic progression to pick up spells, Soul Manifester is from a web enhancement and thus poorly known (also the feat requirements to pick up all those melds are awful), and Anarchic Initiate was listed as the single exception.

You don't need to lose Psionic Progression.

Wizard 1 (precocious apprentice) / Ardent 3 / Cerebremancer 10

Provides, with Practiced Manifester, no loss of manifester progression at level 2-14.

Even with Psion, you still have the ML of a 13th level manifester, which is more or less the same, as you can augment the powers to 13pp, which makes many low level powers as good, if not better than, their high level counterparts.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-11-15, 08:46 PM
You still had the progression taken away through the process of qualifying for the prestige class. You can get it back, and much more easily than a caster could; but the initial statement was valid. Your point about augmentation is equally valid, as psions gain much more from higher ML than casters do from CL. In that context, the initial statement that ML is taken away almost seems misleading.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-15, 08:53 PM
You still had the progression taken away through the process of qualifying for the prestige class. You can get it back, and much more easily than a caster could; but the initial statement was valid. Your point about augmentation is equally valid, as psions gain much more from higher ML than casters do from CL. In that context, the initial statement that ML is taken away almost seems misleading.

Actually, if you take 2 levels of wizard, and during those, select Practiced manifester, and then take a level of Ardent, you start able to choose level 2 powers (For ML 3). Ardent is the only psionic class that chooses powers based on Manifester Level for the class, not Class level.

What you really lose out on is Caster level on the wizard side.

Samb
2009-11-15, 10:45 PM
Actually, if you take 2 levels of wizard, and during those, select Practiced manifester, and then take a level of Ardent, you start able to choose level 2 powers (For ML 3). Ardent is the only psionic class that chooses powers based on Manifester Level for the class, not Class level.

What you really lose out on is Caster level on the wizard side.

Not entirely true. Ardents still lose number of power and PP pool due to dipping. So a wizard 2/ardent xx would still lose 2 levels worth of PP and 2 powers.

And while not a base class, the Cognition Thief also chooses telepath only powers based on ML instead of class level.

Stegyre
2009-11-15, 10:51 PM
Actually, if you take 2 levels of wizard, and during those, select Practiced manifester, and then take a level of Ardent, you start able to choose level 2 powers (For ML 3). Ardent is the only psionic class that chooses powers based on Manifester Level for the class, not Class level.
No. If you read the Ardent description, you will see that it requires you to choose 1st level powers at your first Ardent level. The special mechanic for qualifying for higher-level powers only kicks in at the later levels. (I wish it were otherwise, but that is RAW.)

Samb
2009-11-15, 11:03 PM
HeyHuey power link shards don't make the list? They ignore ML restrictions altogether, that easily makes them more desirable than any cost reducer listed in the OP.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-15, 11:09 PM
Not entirely true. Ardents still lose number of power and PP pool due to dipping. So a wizard 2/ardent xx would still lose 2 levels worth of PP and 2 powers.

And while not a base class, the Cognition Thief also chooses telepath only powers based on ML instead of class level.

The PP lost is rather small, especially since bonus PP from attribute are calculated by Manifester Level as well, not class level.

The lower number of powers isn't as much an issue. The PROGRESSION is the important part. When you get the powers you want. If you lose a couple low level powers, and a smattering of PP, in exchange for a flexible caster list to complement powers, and still keep your highest level options?

That's win/win. The real drawback is the loss of extra mantles from Cerebremancer. Cerebremancer Ardents tend to be very focused on the Ardent side.

Samb
2009-11-15, 11:21 PM
An ardent is not a psion.

An ardent only gets 21 powers in 20 levels and IIRC, PP pool and bonus PP is based on class level (as it is listed on the table in CPsi). So a lose of 4 powers is significant (assuming you didn't use a tattoo of psyreform) for an ardent.

Samb
2009-11-15, 11:26 PM
The chart for bonus PP progress also was specific in stating that it was based off CLASS levels in SRD.

Not to say that ardent isn't a great class, but you should be aware of it's limitations before you make one.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-15, 11:46 PM
The chart for bonus PP progress also was specific in stating that it was based off CLASS levels in SRD.

Not to say that ardent isn't a great class, but you should be aware of it's limitations before you make one.

The text that refers to those points and refers to those tables refers to the equation used to compute it. The text states manifester level.

Text trumps table.

olentu
2009-11-16, 12:05 AM
By the by, would someone mind pointing me towards the part of the rules that says that manifester level and caster level are interchangeable terms. I can not seem to recall where such a statement might be, presumably because of the length of time since I last played a psionic character.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-16, 12:34 AM
By the by, would someone mind pointing me towards the part of the rules that says that manifester level and caster level are interchangeable terms. I can not seem to recall where such a statement might be, presumably because of the length of time since I last played a psionic character.

Psionics/Magic Transparency. States that if items and abilities designed for casters could conceivably affect psionics, they do affect psionics.

Metamagic is out because it increases the slot that the spell goes in, and psionics doesn't use slots.

However, Items/abilities that increase Caster level affect magic. They could conceivably affect psionics. Thus, they do.

olentu
2009-11-16, 12:54 AM
Psionics/Magic Transparency. States that if items and abilities designed for casters could conceivably affect psionics, they do affect psionics.

Metamagic is out because it increases the slot that the spell goes in, and psionics doesn't use slots.

However, Items/abilities that increase Caster level affect magic. They could conceivably affect psionics. Thus, they do.

That in no way answers my question.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-16, 12:58 AM
That in no way answers my question.

Items/actions/abilities/etc that affect caster level affect spellcasting.

Things that affect spellcasting, that could conceivably affect psionics, do affect psionics.

A=B
B=C

It follows is that A=C.

(Items/actions/abilities/etc that affect caster level) that could conceivably affect psionics, do affect psionics.

They're not perfectly interchangeable. It's one-way. Magic stuff >>> Psionics.

And it does answer your question. If it's not the answer you're looking for, then perhaps you should ask the right questions.

Stegyre
2009-11-16, 02:15 AM
An ardent is not a psion.

An ardent only gets 21 powers in 20 levels and IIRC, PP pool and bonus PP is based on class level (as it is listed on the table in CPsi). So a lose of 4 powers is significant (assuming you didn't use a tattoo of psyreform) for an ardent.
I just haven't gotten around to verifying your information. Once I do, I'll edit the OP to add them. (It's not that I doubt you, or anyone, but I always confirm the information, so others won't have to.:smallsmile:)

Stegyre
2009-11-16, 02:20 AM
By the by, would someone mind pointing me towards the part of the rules that says that manifester level and caster level are interchangeable terms. I can not seem to recall where such a statement might be, presumably because of the length of time since I last played a psionic character.
If you will check the OP, you will see that I quoted the relevant statement from the SRD, and I believe I even linked it.

olentu
2009-11-16, 02:22 AM
Items/actions/abilities/etc that affect caster level affect spellcasting.

Things that affect spellcasting, that could conceivably affect psionics, do affect psionics.

A=B
B=C

It follows is that A=C.

(Items/actions/abilities/etc that affect caster level) that could conceivably affect psionics, do affect psionics.

They're not perfectly interchangeable. It's one-way. Magic stuff >>> Psionics.

And it does answer your question. If it's not the answer you're looking for, then perhaps you should ask the right questions.

No the question remains the same as no one has yet shown that manifester level can be substituted into the place of caster level. That is all that I am asking but apparently it is quite a hard question to answer.

Stegyre
2009-11-16, 02:23 AM
The text that refers to those points and refers to those tables refers to the equation used to compute it. The text states manifester level.

Text trumps table.
Extremely problematic argument. The same text reads

Your key ability score grants you additional power points equal to your key ability modifier your manifester level ׽. Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Power Points shows these calculations for class levels 1st through 20th and key ability scores from 10 to 41.
Moreover, Practiced Manifester, although mis-worded, clearly intends that the +4 ML does not increase "powers per day," which in the psionic world, means that it does not increase power points.

Again, I wish that it were otherwise, but it's not.

Lycanthromancer
2009-11-16, 02:24 AM
Extremely problematic argument. The same text reads

Moreover, Practiced Manifester, although mis-worded, clearly intends that the +4 ML does not increase "powers per day," which in the psionic world, means that it does not increase power points.

Again, I wish that it were otherwise, but it's not.Powers per day are relevant for erudites, but no one else.

However, it does increase manifester level, which manifestly (heh) increases power points based on high ability scores.

This is fair, as spellcasters get free scaling (whereas manifesters get pp to spend augmenting powers).

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-16, 02:31 AM
An ardent is not a psion.

An ardent only gets 21 powers in 20 levels and IIRC, PP pool and bonus PP is based on class level (as it is listed on the table in CPsi). So a lose of 4 powers is significant (assuming you didn't use a tattoo of psyreform) for an ardent.

It grants you powers. It grants you powers to 9th level. It has access to the hot-button really good powers. It gains power points at the most advantageous rate possible in psionic classes (tied with psion).

It gains bonus power points based in the manifester level in each class, contrary to differing opinions. This is per the EPH text on the same page as the table:
How To Determine Bonus Power Points: Your key ability score grants you additional power points equal to your key ability modifier your manifester level 1/2. Table 21 shows these calculations for class levels 1st through 20th and key ability scores from 10 to 41.

The spoilered information is primary source. If the table contradicts it, then the table is wrong.

Additional powers, if needed, can be cherry picked through Expanded Knowledge, for the 1-2 powers you really want, but aren't in your mantles.

No, it's not a psion. Ardent, due to its ability to use Practiced Manifester to greater effect, along with the full manifester status, makes it better than a psion, as a focused caster type. And psionics is designed to be more like sorceror than wizard. More focused.

You can get a solid list with maybe 1 other power, attainable via feat. I generally view Schism as the 'power to get' with this, though there are good choices. You gain it at the same time as any non-telepath psion does.

Ardent is highly competitive in the psionics category. When people get past the low number of powers and see that 1 energy power is the same as 5 spells, or one construct power is 9 summon monsters, the limited powers isn't as big a deal.

Stegyre
2009-11-16, 02:35 AM
Powers per day are relevant for erudites, but no one else.
Also wrong. Erudites do not have "powers per day." They have "Unique Powers per day." (CPsi 153) The text is quite specific, and when "Unique ppd" are intended, they are identified as such. This argument carries no more water than trying to say that swordsages start with 6*skill points at first level: typos aren't rules.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-16, 02:36 AM
Extremely problematic argument. The same text reads

Moreover, Practiced Manifester, although mis-worded, clearly intends that the +4 ML does not increase "powers per day," which in the psionic world, means that it does not increase power points.

Again, I wish that it were otherwise, but it's not.

The table does show class levels. The text states that. Agreement there.

The table says that class levels determine bonus power points. The text states differently. Text wins. End of discussion.

"Powers per day" in the psionic world, applies to Psi-like abilities. Now, it could be interpreted as "can't increase PP by any means whatsoever"... but it doesn't say that.

It could also be interpreted to mean "does not increase base power points for the class it is boosting". This would not increase powers per day, and excludes bonus power points from ability modifier and manifester level.

In short, the Practiced Manifester text is very open to interpretation, due to its poor wording. While the intent is open to interpretation, the effect is not. The very next sentence states "It only increases your manifester level, which helps you overcome power resistance and increases the duration and other effects of your powers."
It doesn't increase your manifester level "only for these purposes". It increased manifester level. That's it. This doesn't affect powers known or powers per day (pairing could suggest intent is referring to class granted power points, or Erudite unique powers per day). In fact, an Erudite referral is certainly less of a stretch than "Powers per day" equalling "all power points". I could see that since it's based on a class, it could mean "All power points granted by the class the feat applies to"... But that would mean that the bonus pp would be unaffected, since, by RAW, it's not based on the class, but the Manifester level.

Since it grants manifester level for all purposes (Powers known is a function of class, Powers per day is unclear, but likely the same), then non class granted PP are unaffected.


Also wrong. Erudites do not have "powers per day." They have "Unique Powers per day." (CPsi 153) The text is quite specific, and when "Unique ppd" are intended, they are identified as such. This argument carries no more water than trying to say that swordsages start with 6*skill points at first level: typos aren't rules.

It's less of a stretch than "powers per day" is "power points".

The text is also rather specific when mentioning the core mechanic of the manifesting classes.

EDIT: To be precise, the feats section of Comp Psi isn't fully vetted. By the text, Invest armor is a psionic feat that, by RAW, lets you expend a focus to, as a <Su> ability, permanently increase the armor bonus of an armor by +3. It doesn't list an expiration for the bonus. I'd be willing to houserule in my games 1 attack, or until your next action, but by the printing? It's forever.

Basically, you get this guy as a level 1 Human Warrior with Invest Armor and Wild Talent? All the king's horses and all the kings men go into battle with beefier armor.

Norr
2009-11-16, 03:57 PM
A number of comments:

"All" psionic PrCs do not take away ML. Cerebremancer (XPH), Soul Manifester (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a), and Anarchic Initiate (CPsi) all grant full ML progression.

Already answered above to satisfaction by Foryn Gilnith. Anarchic Initiate makes a nice one-level-dip though.


You cannot stack multiple bonuses from the same source. You can get +1 ML from one Orange Ioun Stone; no more.

True, since the bonuses (though unnamed) comes from multiples of the same item. I don't think I was fully awake at the time of writing.


Feats are not subject to the transparency rule: they are not spells, spell-like abilities, or items. Neither Primitive Caster nor Metamagic Vigor will apply to ML.

I just reread the SRD, and see you are once again correct.

However, Krau sigil + Overchannel + Ioun Stone = +6 ML, which is not at all shabby.

jokey665
2009-11-16, 04:01 PM
Does Krau only work up to a maximum of HD, like practiced spellcaster/manifester, or am I misremembering?

Norr
2009-11-19, 12:19 PM
Upon rereading the entry I see that it is indeed maximum=character level for the illumian. This means as long as you're only 2 ML behind, Illumian as a race makes Practiced manifester rebundant.

However, the Krau sigil says it affects caster level, and as it is not a spell, spell-like ability or magic item, it does not affect ML. Dang.
You would have to use homebrew power sigils or DM fiat to make an interesting Illumian Psion.

Looks like I'll be going back to my original concept, using human bonus feat to make up for the feat going to practiced manifester.

olentu
2009-11-19, 08:38 PM
Ah well I see that my question as to why some item or such like that raises the caster level of a spell would switch to raising the manifester level of a power, instead of raising the caster level of the power, remains unanswered and by all accounts will probably remain unanswered.

Doc Roc
2009-11-19, 10:11 PM
Arcanist's gloves should work, depending on your transparency levels.

Likewise with Craft Magic Tattoo (the spell).

Stegyre
2009-11-19, 11:39 PM
Ah well I see that my question as to why some item or such like that raises the caster level of a spell would switch to raising the manifester level of a power, instead of raising the caster level of the power, remains unanswered and by all accounts will probably remain unanswered.
No. As I wrote earlier, I have put the relevant quote in the OP. Here it is again, from the SRD:

Psionics-Magic Transparency
Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.
The SRD proceeds to give some specific examples: spell resistance and power resistance also work against powers and spells, respectively; dispelling spells and powers work against powers and spells, respectively; detection spells and powers detect powers and spells, respectively; and areas dead to magic are dead to psionics, and vice-versa.

You may not be satisfied with that answer, but that is the RAW basis -- and the only RAW basis -- for the conclusion that a spell, item, or effect that boosts CL has the same effect on ML.

IMHO, exceptions would be where the CL was limited to a specific type: Ring of Arcane Might boosts arcane CL; it does not boost divine CL, and thus there is no reason to believe that it would boost ML: it is not a boost that "could potentially affect psionics," as it does not even affect all magic. If the effect was limited, I presume it was limited intentionally. For this reason, too, I would say that Arcanist's Gloves would not boost ML: they are specifically limited to "1st level arcane spell[s]."

On the other hand, if the effect is unlmited -- Orange Ioun Stone, +1 CL, for example -- it is reasonable, under the transparency rule, to conclude it was intended to affect manifesting, as well.

olentu
2009-11-20, 01:10 AM
No. As I wrote earlier, I have put the relevant quote in the OP. Here it is again, from the SRD:

The SRD proceeds to give some specific examples: spell resistance and power resistance also work against powers and spells, respectively; dispelling spells and powers work against powers and spells, respectively; detection spells and powers detect powers and spells, respectively; and areas dead to magic are dead to psionics, and vice-versa.

You may not be satisfied with that answer, but that is the RAW basis -- and the only RAW basis -- for the conclusion that a spell, item, or effect that boosts CL has the same effect on ML.

IMHO, exceptions would be where the CL was limited to a specific type: Ring of Arcane Might boosts arcane CL; it does not boost divine CL, and thus there is no reason to believe that it would boost ML: it is not a boost that "could potentially affect psionics," as it does not even affect all magic. If the effect was limited, I presume it was limited intentionally. For this reason, too, I would say that Arcanist's Gloves would not boost ML: they are specifically limited to "1st level arcane spell[s]."

On the other hand, if the effect is unlmited -- Orange Ioun Stone, +1 CL, for example -- it is reasonable, under the transparency rule, to conclude it was intended to affect manifesting, as well.

So you are saying that there is no real statement and it is just something that you have decided is a reasonable conclusion given what may or may not be a pattern. Well then that clears things up as I was getting from the opening post that such a substitution was actually given as a part of the rules and thus my question of where such a substitution was allowed occurred. So now that such a thing is confirmed to be an individually concluded extension of the rules (albeit one that I can easily see some viewing as reasonable) rather than something given as an actual rule my question is answered and barring further evidence I shall retire from the discussion. I do apologize for distracting from the intent of the discussion due to my misunderstanding.