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Xefas
2009-10-03, 07:44 PM
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/bluejanus/88161_620_41.jpg

Graz'zt is a busy demon prince, constantly vying for control of the Abyss against Orcus and Demogorgon, as well as dealing with the occasional threat from Malcanthet, Iggwilv, and even his own son, Athux. Still, he likes to find time to visit his mortal cults and engage in licentious liaisons with the worshippers therein. It makes them feel appreciated, and helps him to relax after a long day of conquest and intrigue. To this end, he sends his Aspects to the mortal realm, with which he has a perfect sensory connection with. They sow oats and destruction in equal measure, and the true Dark Prince is free to continue plotting his ultimate victory over demonkind.

Aspect of Graz'zt
Medium Outsider (Extraplanar, Evil, Chaotic, Tanar'ri)
HD 9d8+36 (76hp)
Speed 40 ft. (8 squares)
Init: +7
AC 26; touch 21; flat-footed 23
(+3 Dex, +8 Profane, +5 Natural)
BAB +9; Grp +13
Attack Bastard Sword +18 (1d10+13) [19-20/x2]
Full-Attack Bastard Sword +18/+13 (1d10/+13) [19-20/x2]
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks Maneuvers, Spell-like Abilities
Special Qualities DR 5/Cold Iron and Good, Darkvision 60ft, immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid, cold, and fire 10, telepathy 100ft, Mutable Form, Divine Grace of the Dark Prince
Saves Fort +15 Ref +15 Will +15
Abilities Str 18, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 18, Wis 16, Cha 28
Skills Concentration +17, Bluff +21, Diplomacy +21, Escape Artist +16, Hide +16, Intimidate +21, Knowledge (The Planes) +17, Listen +16, Move Silently +16, Sense Motive +16, Spot +16, Tumble +16
Feats Power Attack, Improved Initiative, Extra Granted Maneuver, Dodgeb, Mobilityb, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword)b, Elusive Target
Environment The Infinite Layers of the Abyss (Azzagrat, Layers 45,46,47)
Challenge Rating 9
Treasure None
Alignment Chaotic Evil

Maneuvers: An Aspect of Graz'zt is a 5th level Initiator. The Aspect is created with 5 Maneuvers known (one 3rd level, two 2nd level, and two 1st level) and 2 Stances (that can be of 1st or 3rd level) known from the Shadow Hand, Iron Heart, or Dread Crown (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76218) disciplines, all of which are readied. The Aspect is granted and recovers maneuvers as a Crusader, but he may choose which maneuvers to be granted each time he is granted one (they are not chosen randomly).

Typical choices are Strength Draining Strike, Slip Into Shadows, Disarming Strike, Savage Slash, and Steel Wind with the Child of Shadow and Assassin's Stance stances.

Spell-like Abilities: An Aspect of Graz'zt's spell-like abilities have a caster level of 5, and the DCs are Charisma-based.
At-will - Undetectable Alignment, Scare
3/day - Charm Person, Invisibility, Mirror Image
1/day - Keen Edge, Desecrate

Mutable Form (Su): An Aspect of Graz'zt has a good deal of control over the physical aspects of its form. Changing is a standard action. It can alter its size one category up or down (this does not further alter its ability scores). It can assume the form of any humanoid, monstrous humanoid, or outsider from Small or Large size, though it gains only its size, appearance, natural weapons, speed, and a fly, climb, or swim speed if it has one. It can grow wings or fins to grant itself a 60 foot fly or swim speed.

Divine Grace of the Dark Prince (Su): An Aspect of Graz'zt still harbors a spark of its true form's power. It uses its Charisma modifier in place of Strength, Constitution, Dexterity, and Wisdom to determine attack and damage bonuses, and ability modifier for saving throws. It gains a Profane bonus to its Armor Class equal to its Charisma modifier.

arguskos
2009-10-03, 07:52 PM
So. Yeah. Good job, making an Aspect of my favorite Demon Prince. Now, all we need is a good update of the true man himself and perhaps of Iggwilv, and we're all set. :smallamused:

Xefas
2009-10-03, 08:03 PM
So. Yeah. Good job, making an Aspect of my favorite Demon Prince. Now, all we need is a good update of the true man himself and perhaps of Iggwilv, and we're all set. :smallamused:

Yeah, he's my favorite Demon Prince as well. I've always be a little disappointed with the portrayals of Demon Princes, Archdevils, Celestial Paragons and...hell, any really big powerful monster. They tend to end up just being a big pile of hit dice with spellcasting attached, rather than having genuinely unique or thematic capabilities. Aspects tend to be even more pathetically generic.

So, I'm doing my part, here and there...

arguskos
2009-10-03, 08:21 PM
Really man. RSS. Think about it. :smalltongue:

As for your point, yeah, I actually really agree. Aspects, Demon Princes, Archdevils, Celestial Lords, Gods, they all really SUCK in 3.5. Between you, Afroakuma, and Amiel, I think we've got everything covered though. :smallcool:

The Tygre
2009-10-03, 10:18 PM
So I heard you like ass-kicking versions of Demiurges...




Grazízt, The Dark Prince
Large Outsider (chaotic, evil, extraplanar, tanaríri)
Symbol:Grazíztís six-fingered hand or a black silhouette of his head with glowing green eyes
Cosmic Rank:17 (20 in Azzagrat)
HD: 93d8 + 1,674 + 120 (2,538 hp)
Initiative: +23
Speed: 90 ft.
AC: 97 (+18 armor, +21 deflection, +15 Dex, +35 natural, -1 size) touch 44, flat-footed 82; displacement (50 % miss chance)
BAB/ Grapple: +93/+113
Attack: +9 acidic blast, keen, speed, unholy power, vile, greatsword, Zelumicor +121 melee (3d6 + 41 + 3d6 acid + 3d6 unholy + 1 vile/17-20/x2)
Full attack: +9 acidic blast, keen, speed, unholy power, vile, greatsword, Zelumicor +121/+121/+116/+111/+106 melee (3d6 + 41 + 3d6 acid + 3d6 unholy + 1 vile/17-20/x2)
Space/reach: 10ft./10ft.
Special attacks:Breath Weapon, Constrict, Epic Spell-like Abilities, Fear, Flames of Azzagrat, Grazíztís Arcane Fire, Improved Grab, Shadow Jump, True Mastery of the Elements, True Spell Power of Grazízt, Tyrannical Stare, Shadow Bolt, Shadow Field, Spell-like Abilities, Summon Lamia, Summon Tanaríri, Summon Shadows,Toss
Special qualities: Darkvision 120ft., DR 40/Epic Good and Cold Iron, Energy Resistance to Cold 50, Fire 50, Immunity to Acid, Electricity and Poison, Immunity to Ability Damage, Ability Drain, Energy Drain, Mind- Affecting Effects, Petrification, and Polymorphing, Fast Healing 30, Item Master, Low-Light Vision, Prince of Shadows, Prince of Tyrants, Ravaged Form (Acidic Blood), Ravaged Form (Dark Beauty), Regeneration 35, SR 103, Telepathy 1000 ft., True Seeing
Saves: Fort +72, Ref +69, Will +71
Abilities: Str 43, Dex 40, Con 46, Int 47, Wis 44, Cha 52
Skills: Appraise +114, Balance +111, Bluff +129, Climb +112, Concentration +114, Decipher Script +114, Diplomacy +132, Disguise +117, Forgery +114, Gather Info +117, Hide +122, Intimidate +132, Jump +136, Knowledge (arcana) +114, Knowledge (history) +114, Knowledge (religion) +114, Knowledge (the planes) +114, Listen +113, Move Silently +111, Search +114, Sense Motive +115, Spellcraft +114, Spot +113, Survival +113, Tumble +111, Use Magic Device +113
Feats: Cleave, Combat Casting, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dark Speech, Dodge, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Greater Spell Focus (enchantment), Greater Spell Penetration, Greater Weapon Focus (greatsword), Greater Weapon Specialization (greatsword), Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Leadership (93), Lightning Reflexes, Magical Aptitude, Mobility, Negotiator, Persuasive, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-like Ability (eagleís splendor), Quicken Spell-like Ability (Grazíztís Long Grasp), Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Skill Focus (Intimidate), Spell Focus (enchantment), Spell Penetration, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword), Whirlwind Attack
Epic Feats: Blinding Speed, Epic Fortitude, Epic Leadership (93), Epic Reflexes, Epic Skill Focus (Bluff), Epic Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Epic Skill Focus (Intimidate), Epic Spellcasting, Epic Spell Penetration, Epic Toughness (x6), Epic Weapon Focus (greatsword), Epic Weapon Specialization (greatsword), Epic Willpower, Improved Combat Casting, Improved Combat Reflexes, Improved Whirlwind Attack, Legendary Commander, Superior Initiative
Environment: Azzagrat (Abyss)
Organization: Solitary or Group (Grazízt, 5 Marilith (40 HD), and 10 succubus)
CR:70
Treasure:Zelumicor, Grazíztís Armor and Quintuple Standard
Alignment:Chaotic Evil

Combat: Grazízt loves to cause destruction with his spell-like abilities. However, for those who are foolish enough to face him in melee combat he will not back down. If out numbered, hell summon help.

Breath Weapon (Su): Grazízt can spit forth a 150 ft. line of glowing, green acid. It deals 40d8 points of violated acid damage. Half is acid, while the other half is unholy. Reflex save DC 79 halves. He can use this once every 1d6 rounds.DC is Con-based.

Constrict (Ex): If Grazízt successfully grapples an opponent with his sword, he deals an extra 6d6 + 61 points of damage.

Fear (Su): As a free action, Grazízt can invoke a fear effect at will. Will save DC 82 negates. DC is Cha-based.

Flames of Azzagrat (Su): Grazízt controls the flames the cover his triple realm, Azzagrat.
As a standard action Grazízt can let loose one of the following.

-He can launch a 160 ft. cone of burning hot green flames from his hand. It deals 27d12 points of violated fire (half fire, half unholy) damage plus 2d6 Con damage as it burns both body and soul. Reflex save 82 halves damage. If the targeted creatureís Con reaches 0, their soul is destroyed. Only a greater god can restore the creature back to life. DC is Cha-based.
-He can launch forth a 160 ft. cone of purple flames from his hand. These flames are the very flames stored in Grazíztís ovens, which dot his triple realm. Thus, the flames deal 27d12 points of violated cold (half cold, half unholy) damage plus 2d6 Dex damage as it freezes its victim. Reflex save 82 halves damage. If the targeted creatureís Con and hp reaches 0, they are frozen in purple ice and their souls are trapped within as if by a trap the soul spell. If the targeted creatureís Con reaches 0, they are merely frozen in purple ice. Only a miracle or wish spell can unfreeze the victim. As a free action on his next turn, Grazízt can send his all who are frozen in this fashion, straight to Azzagrat. Once they reach the layer they are still frozen, whether they are dead or alive. DC is Cha-based.

Grazíztís Arcane Bolt (Su): As a full-round action, Grazízt can unleash a devastating bolt of green and purple flames, which intertwine with each other. The bolt is 20 ft. wide and 600 ft. long. It deals 66d6 points of damage plus 6d6 Con damage. Reflex save DC 87 halves damage. If the targeted creatureís Con reaches 0, their soul is utterly destroyed. Only a greater god can restore the creature back to life. Even then, they have a 66% chance of failing. Grazízt can use this power 16 times per day. DC is Cha-based.

Improved Grab (Ex): When Grazízt attacks with his sword, he can cause it to grapple his target. If successful, he can constrict or toss them.

Item Master (Ex): Grazízt can use any magic item, but he does not create them.

Prince of Shadows: As the Prince of Shadows, Grazízt gains total concealment when in the shadows. He also gains +2 bonus to DC of shadow-based spells such as shadow blast, shadow fade,etc.

Prince of Tyrants: As the Prince of Tyrants, Grazízt enchantment spells are hard to ignore. He gains a +6 bonus to DC of spells that are in the enchantment school.

Ravaged Form (Acidic Blood): Grazíztís blood is highly acidic. Slashing and piercing weapons that strike Grazízt cause his blood to spew forth from his wounds dealing 6d6 points acid of damage to the attacker. So potent is Grazíztís acidic blood, that it ignores any acid resistance or immunities a creature may have. Reflex save DC 79 halves damage. Bludgeoning weapons do not cause his blood to spew forth.

Ravaged Form (Dark Beauty): Grazíztís infernal beauty is undeniable. Those looking at him must succeed a Will save DC 82 or be affected as if by a charm monster/person spell. If the creatures successfully save against this effect, they are immune to it for the next 24 hours.

Regeneration (Ex): Grazízt takes normal damage from epic, good, and cold iron weapons. He takes normal damage from good-aligned spells.

Shadow Bolt (Su): As a standard action, Grazízt can unleash a blackish-purple bolt of energy. It is 300 ft. long and deals 100 points of damage. Reflex save DC 82 halves. The targeted creatures must then succeed on a Fortitude save DC 82 or gain 3d6 negative levels. For each negative level a creature gains, Grazízt gains 15 temporary hit points. These hit points cannot exceed his normal hp limit. DCís are Cha-based.

Shadow Field (Su): As a full round action, Grazízt can erect a barrier of shadows around himself. Grazízt creates a 30 ft. radius of shadows around himself for 60 rounds. Light- or fire-based spells aimed at Grazízt are impeded unless the caster succeeds a Spellcraft check DC 82. Any creature stepping into the shadow field, step into absolute coldness. They take 10d6 points of cold damage per round (no save). Creatures must succeed a Fortitude save DC 82, each round they are within the shadow field, or gain 1d6 negative levels. For each negative level a creature gains, Grazízt gains 15 temporary hit points. These hit points cannot exceed his normal hp limit. Grazízt also gains total concealment while the field is active, and he can disperse the effect at anytime as a standard action. DCís are Cha-based.

Shadow Jump (Su): Grazízt can jump between shadows as a shadow dancer. Only he uses his cosmic rank, 17, to determine how many miles he can shadow jump, meaning he can shadow jump up to 17 miles.

Spell-like Abilities: CL 105; DC 48 + spell level; DC 56 + spell level (enchantments); DC 50 + spell level (shadow-based)
At will Ė acid breath, astral projection, bestow curse, blasphemy, charm monster, damning darkness, darkbolt, daze, daze monster, deeper darkness, demand, desecrate, detect good, detect law, detect thoughts, discern location, eagleís splendor (quickened), eyebite, feeblemind, fireball, foxís cunning, fly, Grazíztís long grasp (quickened), greater dispelling, greater dispel magic, hold monster, hold person, ice storm, insanity, lightning bolt, magic missile, mass charm, mirror image, owlís wisdom, scorching ray, shades, shadow blast, shadow fade, shadow walk, shapechange, suggestion, telekinesis, teleport without error, tongues (self only), touch of idiocy, unhallow, unholy aura, unholy blight, water breathing, wall of fire, wall of ice, wall or iron, water breathing, wretched blight
6/day Ė antimagic field, bestow greater curse, disintegrate, dominate monster, dominate person, meteor storm, symbol of persuasion, symbol of weakness, trap the soul, veil, wish

Epic Spell-like Abilities: Grazízt can cast up to 11 epic spells per day.

Summon Lamia (Sp): 6/day, Grazízt can summon 3d6 lamia

Summon Tanaríri (Sp): 12/day, Grazízt can summon 6 succubi (bard 20), or 1d6 + 1 advanced mariliths (36 HD), or 1d4 advanced glabrezu (sorcerer 20), or 1 advanced balor (45 HD)

Summon Shadows (Sp): 6/day, Grazízt can summon 6d6 + 6 greater shadows.

Toss (Ex): If Grazízt successful grapples an opponent he can toss them 100 ft. in any direction dealing 10d6 points of falling damage. The tossed creature must then succeed a Fortitude save DC 77 or be knocked prone for 6 rounds. He can only toss creatures of Huge or smaller size. DC is Str-based.

True Mastery of the Elements (Su): Grazízt is none throughout the cosmos as one of the strongest magic-users who isnít a sorcerer or wizard. He can alter the type of energy his spell-like abilities.

True Spell Power of Grazízt (Su): Grazízt is none throughout the cosmos as one of the strongest magic-users who isnít a sorcerer or wizard. Like an archmage, Grazízt can cast spells at a higher level the actually he is. He gains a +6 bonus to his caster level.

Tyrannical Stare (Su): Grazízt can target one creature with his gaze as a standard action. A creature who gazes into Grazízt eyes must succeed a Will save DC 82 or bend to his will. At this point, Grazízt can cause 1 of the following effects:
- He can cause the creature to obey his commands as if they were affected by a dominate person/monster spell of 93rd level.
- He can hold the creature in place as if they were affected by a hold person/monster spell of 93rd level.
- He can cause the creature to cower in fear in front of him for 6d6 minutes.
- He can hypnotize the creature as if they were affected by a hypnotize spell of 93rd level.

Possessions:

Zelumicor: This foul blade is a wavy, jagged greatsword, which drips profusely with acid. It function as a +9 acidic blast, keen, speed, unholy power, vile, greatsword. With each strike, the acid from the blade splashes out in a 10 ft radius of the struck creature. Any creature within range takes 3d6 points of acid damage, even if Grazízt fails to strike his target. On a successful critical hit, acid pours into the victimís wounds. For 6 rounds the acid eats away at the victims innards, dealing 5d6 points of acid damage plus 1d6 Con drain. Fortitude save DC 82 (Cha-based) halves damage. Even if successful, the creature still takes a Ė6 penalty to attack, damage, and saves from the terrible pain. If unsuccessful, the target doubles over in pain for 1 round and is considered helpless. If the creatureís Con score reaches 0, it dies and becomes a puddle of acid, blood, and liquefied flesh. A miracle or wish spell restores the creatureís body, but it is still dead (-10 hp). After its body is restored, it can be raised normally. Grazízt can also turn the sword into a black viper, which he can then use to constrict or toss a foe.

Grazíztís Armor: This shiny, silvery full-plate is glamered to appear as lighter armor, which reveals more of his ďflawlessĒ body. It functions as a +10 cold warding, fire warding, glamered, greater shadow, mithral fullplate . He receives no penalties for wearing this armor. Any acid damage done to Grazízt is absorbed and converted to temporary hit points as long as he wears this armor. These hit points cannot exceed his normal hp limit.

Xefas
2009-10-03, 10:28 PM
So I heard you like ass-kicking versions of Demiurges...

Yeah, I've seen the Dicefreaks stuff before. Unfortunately, their creations are generally too high CR to use in a common game. Even a CR 22 Graz'zt has to be worked towards pretty heavily for a game starting at mid or low levels. CR 70? Its nice, in theory, but I doubt heavily I'd ever be able to use it in practice.

Gorgondantess
2009-10-03, 11:11 PM
Yeah, I've seen the Dicefreaks stuff before. Unfortunately, their creations are generally too high CR to use in a common game. Even a CR 22 Graz'zt has to be worked towards pretty heavily for a game starting at mid or low levels. CR 70? Its nice, in theory, but I doubt heavily I'd ever be able to use it in practice.

Emmm... dude. It's a demon prince. Like, the closest thing to a god you can be without being a god (and sometimes more powerful than gods, in the case of guys like Asmodeus- technically an archdevil, but oh well.) CR 70 might be a tad high, but CR 22... that's none too difficult. Any decent wizard of high level could take your average CR 22 down pretty efficiently.

Zaydos
2009-10-03, 11:24 PM
The trick is to make them tough, iconic, and at the same time usable in a game. This means they have to feel strong enough that no Balor would ever (successfully) oppose them, have powers along the theme of their demonic portfolio, and at the same time be of a CR a non-epic party could actually fight them and win because the heroes always win in the end. Few games ever go epic and the demon princes are supposed to be at the highest end of what a hero can fight (rather like a great wyrm red dragon). So while a CR 70 demon prince might catch that power, a CR 22 one is more useful in most games. If you have a Lv 70 game okay, but those are even rarer than Lv 20 (and I've been in one which went from 12-20 most of mine end around 8-9 tops). So I like seeing a CR 20s demon lord, especially if it feels powerful and unique.

Edit: With heavy optimizers this might should be increased a fair bit to I don't know never actually seen those.

Xefas
2009-10-04, 12:02 AM
Emmm... dude. It's a demon prince. Like, the closest thing to a god you can be without being a god (and sometimes more powerful than gods, in the case of guys like Asmodeus- technically an archdevil, but oh well.) CR 70 might be a tad high, but CR 22... that's none too difficult. Any decent wizard of high level could take your average CR 22 down pretty efficiently.

I see your point, and respectfully disagree with it.

For one, a decent high level wizard might be able to take a CR 22 Demon Prince down pretty efficiently (given that the Demon Prince is encountered alone with no high level casters of his own to back him up). But a decent high level barbarian could not. That's more a problem with wizards being able to take on challenges far above their level than Demon Princes not being strong enough (and the general imbalance of power in D&D as a whole).

For two, your point seems to rely heavily on the idea that high level characters are common and not all that impressive. If you're level 20, you're close to the power of a Demon Prince. And? You should be. If you chose a decent class, you're achieving godlike things on a regular basis.

If you want Demon Princes to be so powerful and amazing that players are incapable of challenging them, then keep their level down to 5 or 6. They're exceptional to the point of being inhuman, and yet cosmic monstrosities (in the 20+ CR range) are out of their league. This is just a matter of scale.

Gorgondantess
2009-10-04, 12:13 AM
I see your point, and respectfully disagree with it.

For one, a decent high level wizard might be able to take a CR 22 Demon Prince down pretty efficiently (given that the Demon Prince is encountered alone with no high level casters of his own to back him up). But a decent high level barbarian could not. That's more a problem with wizards being able to take on challenges far above their level than Demon Princes not being strong enough (and the general imbalance of power in D&D as a whole).

For two, your point seems to rely heavily on the idea that high level characters are common and not all that impressive. If you're level 20, you're close to the power of a Demon Prince. And? You should be. If you chose a decent class, you're achieving godlike things on a regular basis.

If you want Demon Princes to be so powerful and amazing that players are incapable of challenging them, then keep their level down to 5 or 6. They're exceptional to the point of being inhuman, and yet cosmic monstrosities (in the 20+ CR range) are out of their league. This is just a matter of scale.

Mmm. Okay. I generally have my worlds set at a mid-high power level, so level 20 characters, while exceedingly rare, aren't nonexistent on any given prime. So, okay, from your view that's a very valid point, and I respectfully withdraw my argument.:smallsmile:

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-10-04, 03:15 AM
For two, your point seems to rely heavily on the idea that high level characters are common and not all that impressive. If you're level 20, you're close to the power of a Demon Prince. And? You should be. If you chose a decent class, you're achieving godlike things on a regular basis.

To be fair, there's a pretty good chance that at least some high-level characters have risen before since the dawn of the multiverse, and if you want a Demon Prince to have survived all of the high-level parties, all of the backstabbing high-CR demons, all of the Blood War skirmishes, etc. you'd probably want to put them in the mid-to-high 20s. Low 20s, below 23-ish, are still within "hard, but manageable, boss fight" for 20th level characters, and Demon Princes should honestly be a bit more powerful and memorable than that; while CR 70+ isn't usable in 99% of real games, I do think upping them to around 26-27 would be appropriate.

Yora
2009-10-04, 04:45 AM
I think demon princes with CR 22 or 23 are totaly justified.
If the CR system would work, a 4 character group of 20th level would have a similar power to 4 balors. And these guys are supposed to be the most poweful thing short of unique outsiders.
In my view, demon princes are not supposed to be brawlers who can handle any threat themselves, but overlords who command hordes of tens of thousands of fiends and who have the powers of a demi-god within their own realms. Either 4 balors or four PCs could probably kill them, if they can trap them outside their realms and cut off from their armies. That's okay, but that's not how it would usually happen. They would stay in their castles surrounded by armies of demons, pushing the Encounter Level far above their own CR.

Of course, all assuming that no mortal has ever reached 21st level.

Also, that CR 70 monstocity has a far too complex stat block to be handled in a fight. I would not want to bother with that many abilities. :smallamused:

Xefas
2009-10-04, 11:25 AM
Perhaps, then, that the Demon Prince should have a 22-23 CR outside of their own realm (and thus a manageable fight for a group of level 20 PCs), but a CR of 27-28 in their own realm, taking it out of their reach? Add in some other demons likely to be with the Demon Prince (such as Graz'zt's two Maraliths bodyguards with class levels, Unhath and Reluhantis), and you can push the CR of a fight in their realm up to 30+ easily, which would require epic levels.

Does this seem like a sensible solution?

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-10-04, 01:05 PM
Perhaps, then, that the Demon Prince should have a 22-23 CR outside of their own realm (and thus a manageable fight for a group of level 20 PCs), but a CR of 27-28 in their own realm, taking it out of their reach? Add in some other demons likely to be with the Demon Prince (such as Graz'zt's two Maraliths bodyguards with class levels, Unhath and Reluhantis), and you can push the CR of a fight in their realm up to 30+ easily, which would require epic levels.

Does this seem like a sensible solution?

That sounds good; they definitely need to be powerful enough on their home turf to not worry about being overthrown by a handful of balors, but I suppose if you could trick them outside you'd be able to take them down.

Yora
2009-10-05, 03:56 AM
Most real world politicians would be only 3rd or 4th level experts under d20 rules. Still you don't see special forces teams assassinating hostile leaders. (And not for not trying.)
Don't underestimate the protection offered by good defences and loyal minions. :smallbiggrin:

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-10-05, 08:24 AM
Most real world politicians would be only 3rd or 4th level experts under d20 rules. Still you don't see special forces teams assassinating hostile leaders. (And not for not trying.)
Don't underestimate the protection offered by good defences and loyal minions. :smallbiggrin:

This is true; however, special forces people are also less than ~6th level--a terrorist organization can't scry-n-die the President, there's no protection from Russians spell that'll spoil a lot of the Premier's security (amusing as that would be), and so forth.

The higher level everyone gets, the higher the level ratio needs to be to ensure protection; below 5th level you can be about the same level and be protect-able, but by the time you hit 20th there are so many effects and so many counters to them (and counter-counters, and counter-counter-counters....) that that just isn't sufficient. When even the faceless mooks have vorpal weaponry and can toss around blasphemy and teleport at will, you really need a 7-8 level buffer to prevent bazillions of terrible things from happening to you.

arguskos
2009-10-05, 08:45 AM
I dunno, I've always enjoyed the idea that mortals, no matter how powerful, are still lightweights compared to cosmic powers like the Demon Princes, Archdevils, and Gods. If mortal power is weighed on a scale, it balances against 10-lb weights. Princes and Archdevils weigh against low to mid 100s, and Gods top the scale at high 100s. This way, yes, a VERY powerful elite group of mortals with a plan, sufficient luck, and some other tricks can maybe take a mid-range Prince, like, say, Obox-ob or Baphomet. Graz'zt, who controls three layers? Orcus, who was a god? Demogorgon, who is the most powerful Prince of all these days? Yeaaaaaah, you're gonna need more than just luck and skill. You'll need NUMBERS to take one of them.

It's like the difference between Bel and Asmodeus. Yes, they're both archdevils, but there's a world of difference there.

Then again, this is just how I see it. Take or leave as you will. :smallwink: