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View Full Version : Fixing Weapons and Armor [3.5]



Baron Corm
2009-10-04, 04:43 PM
I've always been unsatisfied with the majority of armors and exotic weapons. The following is meant to boost weak armor types and exotic weapons, and delete ones that just don't need to be there. There should be a good reason to take any of the armor types, and all of the exotic armors and weapons should be worth a feat. Medium armors especially get the short end of the stick right now.

Shields also got an all-around boost, to make using a shield a more attractive idea. +2 to AC doesn't really compare to the increased damage from 2HF or 2WF, but +4 AC is starting to look attractive.

Light Armor
{table=head]Armor|Cost|Armor Bonus|Max Dex Bonus|ACP|ASF|Speed Penalty|Weight
Padded|5 gp|+1|+8|-|5%|-|10 lb
Leather|10 gp|+2|+7|-1|10%|-|15 lb
Chain Shirt|100 gp|+4|+5|-2|20%|-|25 lb[/table]

Medium Armor
{table=head]Armor|Cost|Armor Bonus|Max Dex Bonus|ACP|ASF|Speed Penalty|Weight
Chainmail|150 gp|+5|+4|-4|25%|-5 ft|30 lb
Breast Plate|250 gp|+6|+3|-5|25%|-5 ft|40 lb[/table]

Heavy Armor
{table=head]Armor|Cost|Armor Bonus|Max Dex Bonus|ACP|ASF|Speed Penalty|Weight
Splint Mail|500 gp|+7|+2|-6|30%|-10 ft|40 lb
Full Plate|1,500 gp|+8|+1|-8|40%|-10 ft|50 lb[/table]

Shields
{table=head]Shield|Cost|Shield Bonus|ACP|ASF|Speed Penalty*|Weight
Buckler|15 gp|+1|-|5%|-|5 lb
Light Wooden|3 gp|+1|-|5%|-|5 lb
Light Steel|9 gp|+2|-1|5%|-|6 lb
Heavy Wooden|7 gp|+3|-2|10%|-5 ft|10 lb
Heavy Steel|20 gp|+4|-3|15%|-5 ft|15 lb
Tower Wooden|15 gp|+5|-8|40%|-10 ft|30 lb
Tower Steel|30 gp|+6|-10|50%|-10 ft|45 lb[/table]
*If you combine a speed-lowering shield with a speed-lowering armor, you use the lower of the two modifications, rather than combining them.

Exotic Armor
{table=head]Armor (Type)|Cost|Armor Bonus|Max Dex Bonus|ACP|ASF|Speed Penalty|Weight
Twist Cloth (Light)|15 gp|+1|-|-|-|-|5 lb
Leafweave Mail (Light)|250 gp|+4|+6|-1|10%|-0 ft|5 lb
Chitin (Medium)|200 gp|+5|+5|-2|20%|-|15 lb
Reinforced Leafweave Mail (Medium)|300 gp|+6|+4|-2|20%|-5 ft|15 lb
Dragonscale Armor (Heavy)|5,000 gp|+8|+2|-4|40%|-5 ft|45 lb
Stone Armor (Heavy)|2,500 gp|+10|+0|-10|50%|-10 ft|60 lb[/table]

Twist Cloth: You are treated as not wearing armor if you are proficient. Additionally, armor bonus (including enhancement bonuses) also applies to touch attacks, if you are proficient.
Leafweave Mail: Grants you the ranger's Camouflage ability. Changes color to match the surrounding flora. Does not function without plants in the surroundings.
Chitin: Grants you fast healing 1, if you are proficient and psionically focused.
Reinforced Leafweave Mail: Has the same properties as leafweave mail, but is reinforced with a wooden breastplate on the interior.
Dragonscale Armor: Grants energy resistance 20 to a certain type of energy, depending on the type of dragon scales used to make it.
Stone Armor: Grants you light fortification, if you are proficient.

Special Materials

You can skip this section if you just agree that any material can be made with any special material. Some justification follows.

Steeleaf - Can be applied to leafweave, having the same effects as mithral. Can be applied to leafweave differently, having the same effects as adamantine.

Great Wyrm Dragonscale - When scales are obtained from chromatic great wyrms, they function as adamantine. When obtained from metallic great wyrms, they function as mithral.

Mammoth Leather/Black Ironwood/Obsidian - Can be applied to leather/wood/stone, having the same effects as adamantine.

Light Leather/Yew/Sandstone - Can be applied to leather/wood/stone, having the same effects as mithral.

Exotic Weapons

Most of these already existed. I upgraded a few of them to be worth a feat. The last column is the type of proficiency you must already have in order to take the proficiency feat for that weapon. You must have proficiency in all weapons of that type.

{table=head]Weapon|Hands|Cost|Dmg (M)|Critical|Range Increment|Weight|Dmg Type|Proficiency
Meteor Hammer|2H|25 gp|2d4|x2|-|10 lb|B/P|Martial
Shotput|2H/Thrown|60 gp|2d4|x3|20 ft|20 lb|B|Simple
Thinblade|1H|120 gp|1d6|18-20/x4|-|3 lb|S/P|Martial
Courtblade|2H|240 gp|2d6|19-20/x3|-|5 lb|S/P|Martial
Greathammer|2H|55 gp|2d10|x4|-|30 lb|B|Martial
Execution Axe|2H|105 gp|2d12|x3|-|25 lb|S|Martial
Double Flail|1H|60 gp|2d4|x2|-|10 lb|B/P|Simple
Heavy Double Flail|2H|90 gp|2d6|x2|-|20 lb|B/P|Martial
Waraxe|1H|30 gp|2d8|x3|-|8 lb|S|Martial
Sai|Light/Thrown|15 gp|1d6|x2|10 ft|2 lb|B/P|Simple
Shuriken|Light/Thrown|1 gp|1d2|18-20/x3|10 ft|1/2 lb|P|Simple
Bladebow|Ranged|250 gp|2d8|19-20/x4|90 ft|5 lb|P|Martial
Chakram|1H/Thrown|35 gp|1d8|x3|10 ft|3 lb|S|Martial
Whip|Light|1 gp|1d4|x2|-|2 lb|S|Simple
Dagger Whip|Light|16 gp|1d6|19-20/x2|-|3 lb|S|Simple[/table]

Meteor Hammer: Reach, but has no minimum range. Can be used to trip. +4 bonus to disarm. Treated as Light or 2H, whichever is more beneficial, if you are proficient. Non-spiked versions only deal bludgeoning damage.
Shotput: 1.5x Str to damage when thrown, 2x damage from Power Throw.
Thinblade: Treated as Light or 1H, whichever is more beneficial, if you are proficient.
Courtblade: Treated as Light, 1H, or 2H, whichever is most beneficial, if you are proficient.
Execution Axe: Critical hit multiplier is x4 if one damage die is the maximum roll, and x5 of both are.
Double Flail and Heavy Double Flail: Ignores 4 of the opponent's shield AC, if you are proficient. +2 bonus to disarm. Can be used to trip. Non-spiked versions only deal bludgeoning damage.
Waraxe: Deals 2d6 damage and can be wielded two-handed, if not proficient, as long as you are proficient with greataxes.
Sai: +8 bonus to disarm and sunder, doubled monk AC bonus (from class, not Wis).
Shuriken: In melee, critical is 19-20, x2.
Bladebow: Cannot be made into a composite bow.
Chakram: Treated as having the Returning property if you are proficient. Bounces to 1 creature within 10 feet of the original target before returning, at the same attack roll, if you are proficient.
Whip and Dagger Whip: Has a 15 foot reach, and no minimum range, but does not threaten an area and cannot be used to make attacks of opportunity. Can be used to trip. +6 bonus to disarm, and weapon size modifiers are not applied. Can be used to grab onto objects, if you are proficient. Putting a dagger on the end of the whip increases the damage and critical threat range, but removes the ability to grab onto objects.

Additional Homebrew and Houserules

Spoilered to save space and maintain focus on the new weapons and armor, these other options are also related to weapons and help create balance and realism.

Enchanted Weapon Quiver/Sheath/Holster/Pouch

A new item to help those with thrown weapons or arrows. It constantly produces a chosen type of thrown weapon or ammunition, with chosen enhancements. The weapon loses the enhancements the round after it leaves the quiver. The quiver costs twice as much as the enhancements it bestows, plus 2000 gp.

Redefining Masterwork

There is little reason to put more than a +1 enhancement bonus on an item, when you can get at least 1d6 damage for the same cost, and probably something better. That is why all enhancement bonuses are now considered to be nonmagical. You can apply them without being a spellcaster, though bestowing greater than the normal masterwork bonus requires the Craft Masterwork Arms and Armor feat, which has a prerequisite of Craft +6, and no caster level prerequisite. Your Craft skill must also be at least 3 times as large as the enhancement bonus you are applying.

To go along with this, a weapon can now have up to +10 worth of attack and damage enhancement.

This means, if you have a +10 sword and a +10 armor, and they get disjunctioned, you still have a +10 sword and a +10 armor. Most of the time, they will be less useful than magic ones, but you do get the attack bonus, and this allows for non-wizard-or-artificer crafting, which I quite like. Masterwork weapons function as mundane weapons against incorporeal creatures, and do not bypass damage reduction x/magic.

Related to this ruling is the idea that you can cast greater magic weapon on a +1 weapon with +9 abilities and get a +5 weapon with +9 abilities. I would put a stop to this practice by saying that anything greater than a +10 weapon is an epic weapon, which non-epic magic cannot create, no matter the method. A magic weapon spell will grant the most enhancement it can, up to a total +10 bonus for the weapon.

Fortification

Borrowing from Seerow's idea (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202722), fortification is now an AC bonus against attack rolls made for critical confirmation or precision damage. Light fortification is a +5 AC bonus, medium fortification is a +10 AC bonus, and heavy fortification is a +20 AC bonus.

Fortification from different sources may stack, up to a +20 maximum AC bonus. If your normal AC is hit, you are still dealt normal damage. A fortification bonus to AC functions in all other ways as an armor bonus to AC. It applies to flatfooted AC, but not touch AC, unless it is applied by something which applies to touch AC (such as having the Deflective Armor feat, with fortification on your armor).

Die Size Increases

To make them more intuitive, damage die size increases are modified. Whenever you increase your damage for any reason (including size increase) by either by one "size" or by one "step", go one step up on the following list. If a die size is not on this list, find the die size with the closest maximum damage to it, and go from there.

{table]1|2d8|8d12
1d2|2d10|16d8
1d3|2d12|16d10
1d4|4d8|16d12
1d6|4d10|32d8
1d8|4d12|32d10
1d10|8d8|32d12
1d12|8d10|64d8[/table]

For die sizes above 64d8, follow the general rule of increasing the second number by 2, then going back to 8 and multiplying the first number by 2, when the second number reaches 12.

Animated Shields

Animated shields are extremely cheap for what they give, and contribute to sword-and-board fighters being highly underused. Therefore, the animated property is a +5 equivalent in this system, instead of a +2. If you want to use a shield as even an archer, it's only going to be half as good as a dedicated shieldbearer's.

Attack of Opportunity

Any creature is treated as flatfooted when an Attack of Opportunity is made against them. Because sense, and another avenue to perform sneak attacks.

DragoonWraith
2009-10-04, 05:01 PM
Change "enhancement bonuses" from "enhancement" to "inherent". This goes well with the idea that they're not magical, and allows it to stack with Greater Magic Weapon. Make yourself a +5 Greatsword, and your Wizard buddy can cast GMW on it to make it +10. Probably still lackluster, but at least it's not still +5 and missing +4 worth of additional abilities.

I assume that despite being non-magical, the enhancement bonuses still count towards the +10 limit? Can you make a +10 weapon, just literally straight up +10?

Also, I'd suggest making the enhancement/inherent bonuses give +x to damage and attack. That makes them a lot more attractive.

Baron Corm
2009-10-04, 05:08 PM
Change "enhancement bonuses" from "enhancement" to "inherent". This goes well with the idea that they're not magical, and allows it to stack with Greater Magic Weapon. Make yourself a +5 Greatsword, and your Wizard buddy can cast GMW on it to make it +10. Probably still lackluster, but at least it's not still +5 and missing +4 worth of additional abilities.

I assume that despite being non-magical, the enhancement bonuses still count towards the +10 limit? Can you make a +10 weapon, just literally straight up +10?

Also, I'd suggest making the enhancement/inherent bonuses give +x to damage and attack. That makes them a lot more attractive.

I don't want it to stack with GMW. The new enhancement bonus is just like the old one, so it already gives + to attack and damage. The idea is that some people would now choose to make a +10 weapon, and some would stick with special weapon abilities. So yeah, you can make a +10 weapon now. I'll clarify that.

Mark Hall
2012-05-29, 02:10 PM
The Mod Wonder: Reopened at creator request.

bobthe6th
2012-07-16, 04:25 PM
as this was reopened I hope this won't be necromancy...

first, why kill spiked chain with a nerf bat? I was one of the actually worth it EWPs... and now I really don't see it. you spent a feat to add inclusive reach, and lose a bunch of damage on your glave. why?

additionaly I am sad to see a lack of a wip fix... so very sad.

and... what is with the exicutionars axe? I mean yes, it was a feat, but... 2-24, average 13 damage verses 2-12, average 7...

I would like to see more stuff added to EWs, rather then more flat damage. like adding a wip that has non inclusive reach out to 15ft, or somthing...

the armors look cool, but sort of limiting in what can be made. perhaps just make them more generic? It just feels odd in the massive D&D world their are only 7 kinds of armor.

the exotics are nice, I especially like the materials note.

with master working, it would be good to note that master work weapons don't help against ghosts... otherwise I like it.

Baron Corm
2012-07-16, 07:52 PM
first, why kill spiked chain with a nerf bat? I was one of the actually worth it EWPs... and now I really don't see it. you spent a feat to add inclusive reach, and lose a bunch of damage on your glave. why?

Reinstated most of the other powers of the spiked chain. I probably left them out because it would mess up the table with all of the text. So I just moved the special qualities to a separate place.


additionaly I am sad to see a lack of a wip fix... so very sad.

Assuming you meant whip, I will work on one!


and... what is with the exicutionars axe? I mean yes, it was a feat, but... 2-24, average 13 damage verses 2-12, average 7...

6 damage is fair for a feat for sure. Possibly not even worth it if it didn't lead into other feats or ways to increase the damage, but the better crits should make it worth it.


I would like to see more stuff added to EWs, rather then more flat damage. like adding a wip that has non inclusive reach out to 15ft, or somthing...

Tried my best, would welcome some more ideas!


the armors look cool, but sort of limiting in what can be made. perhaps just make them more generic? It just feels odd in the massive D&D world their are only 7 kinds of armor.

I'm not qualified enough on the subject of medieval armor to know what else to put. It seems to me like the categories are pretty general, and would include a wide variety of armors. What other types did you have in mind?


the exotics are nice, I especially like the materials note.

Thank ya. It was a bit tongue-in-cheek but there you go.


with master working, it would be good to note that master work weapons don't help against ghosts... otherwise I like it.

Good idea! And thanks again for the critique :smallsmile:.

toapat
2012-07-16, 08:01 PM
*snip*

you outline a part of the iceberg, but miss alot:

the damage and critical ranges overall are abysmally balanced against other weapons. Why should i wield any other 1handed weapon when the Thinblade has a critical that makes the tarrasque squeal with joy, and is martial, thus being attained without problem.

Weapons in DnD were designed around a realistic depiction of a longsword, not storybook/fantasy depictions of weapons, such as shurikens, a prop commonly mistaken as a weapon

Armor:
the numerous sets of armor in the PHB/SRD account for all except Lamelar scale armor, a type of armor that could not accurately be judged because Lamelar was done in multiple ways that yielded varying levels of protection.
I think that Banded and Splint Mail were both badly balanced though

Seerow
2012-07-16, 08:02 PM
I'm trying to figure out what this is supposed to fix.

Baron Corm
2012-07-16, 08:08 PM
They each require a proficiency feat. You can't take the proficiency feat unless you already have proficiency with all weapons of the type in that column.

It fixes the fact that only a few types of armor or exotic weapons are ever chosen, in my experience. Those would be padded armor, mithral chain shirts, full plate mail, and spiked chains.

toapat
2012-07-16, 08:17 PM
They each require a proficiency feat. You can't take the proficiency feat unless you already have proficiency with all weapons of the type in that column.

It fixes the fact that only a few types of armor or exotic weapons are ever chosen, in my experience. Those would be padded armor, mithral chain shirts, full plate mail, and spiked chains.

and there are reasons why those are the preferred armors and weapons.

The Spiked Chain has numerous benefits to being wielded, but itself requires alot of dedicated training to use

Characters who wear armor wear what their archtype wears because the classes were built to wear the archtypical armor. There are no Musketteer classes in DnD, so a breastplate will be more rare then a Paladin in fullplate or a Wizard in a Robe.

Mountain Plate, and the other Superheavyweight armors in Races of Stone, are more for flavor then for actual gameplay. The most useful armors from that expansion are Locking Full Plate (rarely) and the Gnomish Battle Cloak, a better version of the Animated Shield trick

bobthe6th
2012-07-16, 08:18 PM
and the reason wasn't really fixed. spiked chain is used because it is THE BEST BFC for melee... I mean really, it dominates. but additional damage can be gotten for cheaper then a feat. at least 6 is nearly enough...

but the thin blade... um WTF? I missed that, skipping it thinking it was just another 18-20/x2.... but the crit is madness. keen you are dealing x4 3/10 swings, or about one out of three... TWF you swing like 6 a round...

Seerow
2012-07-16, 08:32 PM
Personally I don't think that 18-20x4 crit is too outrageous for an exotic weapon. Yes it's something the game doesn't currently have, but it isn't going to totally destroy the game if it exists.

In my weapon/armor system, 1d6 18-20x4 would cost: 1 slot (damage) + 2 slots (crit range) + 4 slots (crit multiplier) + 1 slot (finessible) = 8 slots, which would be 1 slot overvalued for an exotic one handed weapon. But making it a normal one hander instead of finessible, or dropping the damage die down to a d4 would be fine.

toapat
2012-07-16, 08:36 PM
and the reason wasn't really fixed. spiked chain is used because it is THE BEST BFC for melee... I mean really, it dominates. but additional damage can be gotten for cheaper then a feat. at least 6 is nearly enough...

but the thin blade... um WTF? I missed that, skipping it thinking it was just another 18-20/x2.... but the crit is madness. keen you are dealing x4 3/10 swings, or about one out of three... TWF you swing like 6 a round...

i know, DDO gives us the Falcata (incorrectly named a Khopesh) that has a 1d8 19-20x3 multiplier, it is the highest damage output 1handed weapon in the game, and when TWF as a Paladin, it outright curbstomps a Greataxe.

then they have the Sword of Shadow, a Greatsword which despite being released at launch, was able to hold its possition of Most Uber Ever by right of 2d6 18-20x3, then upping to 5d6 18-20x3

The chart of How to balance Weapons:

Critmultiplier\CritRange|18-20|19-20|20
x2|Scimitar, Rapier, Kukri, Great Crossbow, Falcion|Dagger, Shortsword, Longsword, Greatsword, Bastardsword, Crossbow, Hand, Light, Heavy|Who cares, all underpowered underflavored weapons
x3|(Crazyborked)|Falcata (OP)|Handaxe, Battle Axe, Dwarven War Axe, Greataxe, Shortbow, Longbow, Lance
x4|(NO)|-|Heavy Pick, Light Pick, Scythe


Personally I don't think that 18-20x4 crit is too outrageous for an exotic weapon. Yes it's something the game doesn't currently have, but it isn't going to totally destroy the game if it exists.

except that people dont typically get a good examination of how powerful some of the crit modifiers are, such as un/holy power. with just Improved Critical, that is a 28.5% chance of 4 Negative Levels without save, meaning in one attack action, you likely just shaved off +4 Attack bonus, AC, Saves, and a huge chunk of health from your opponent, if you do that on your first attack, then your opponent is less likely to dodge your third attack, get the 8% chance on the second attack to crit again, and your opponent wont survive your standard attack action

Baron Corm
2012-07-18, 12:58 PM
I don't think a game where TWF paladins are the best meleers is an accurate judge for what would be good in PnP. I also don't think it's unbalanced compared to things spellcasters get, though playtesting might prove otherwise. I'm leaving it as-is for now.

Seerow, I looked at some of your weapons fixes, and liked your fortification change a lot. Makes more sense to me, given what AC is supposed to represent. I added it in, with some numbers changes. Hope that's alright.

toapat
2012-07-18, 01:09 PM
I don't think a game where TWF paladins are the best meleers is an accurate judge for what would be good in PnP. I also don't think it's unbalanced compared to things spellcasters get, though playtesting might prove otherwise. I'm leaving it as-is for now.

Seerow, I looked at some of your weapons fixes, and liked your fortification change a lot. Makes more sense to me, given what AC is supposed to represent. I added it in, with some numbers changes. Hope that's alright.

except that paladin itself is supposed to be the highest single hit damage of all the core melee classes, hitting in the 1000s is within the possibility of core, paladins arent much better in DDO then rangers for average dps, they just spike really, really high., a greataxe in the same possition hits for a third less damage on average

Quellian-dyrae
2012-07-18, 03:36 PM
Also have to agree that the thinblade is too much, and to a lesser extent the shuriken and bladebow. 18-20/X4 is basically +45% damage, shooting up to +90% with Improved Critical or Keen.

Although...I know I've heard about some Kaorti Resin or something that makes any weapon a X4, so I guess if that's in play it's fair enough...

The others all look good, although the glaive confuses me. Isn't a glaive a type of polearm?

Baron Corm
2012-07-18, 03:37 PM
except that paladin itself is supposed to be the highest single hit damage of all the core melee classes, hitting in the 1000s is within the possibility of core, paladins arent much better in DDO then rangers for average dps, they just spike really, really high., a greataxe in the same possition hits for a third less damage on average

You've gotta tell me what build you're referring to, otherwise I won't know. I know they can hit high damage charging on a mount with a lance, but I don't think that's what you're referring to. Something with Smite Evil maybe? And anyway, against a creature immune to critical hits, or even with just decent fortification, which is something an optimized character should certainly expect to face, the average damage could definitely swing in the favor of the greataxe (or execution axe). I don't know enough to compute the exact numbers.


Also have to agree that the thinblade is too much, and to a lesser extent the shuriken and bladebow. 18-20/X4 is basically +45% damage, shooting up to +90% with Improved Critical or Keen.

Although...I know I've heard about some Kaorti Resin or something that makes any weapon a X4, so I guess if that's in play it's fair enough...

How much is a 19-20 weapon, and how would light or medium fortification affect this?


The others all look good, although the glaive confuses me. Isn't a glaive a type of polearm?

Yeah, I think in the real world it means that, but I meant more of the type of weapon that Xena throws, a chakram I suppose? In Warcraft and some other places they call it a glaive, so that might have been on my mind. I'll change it to chakram to avoid confusion.

toapat
2012-07-18, 03:54 PM
You've gotta tell me what build you're referring to, otherwise I won't know. I know they can hit high damage charging on a mount with a lance, but I don't think that's what you're referring to. Something with Smite Evil maybe? And anyway, against a creature immune to critical hits, or even with just decent fortification, which is something an optimized character should certainly expect to face, the average damage could definitely swing in the favor of the greataxe (or execution axe). I don't know enough to compute the exact numbers.

its not a build that PnP can replicate to the letter, but Smite Evil+Vow of Poverty (+8 Str)+Bull's Strength+2 STR tome+16 base +4 level strenght+GTWF+Overpowered weapon= Huge damage, and the reason it cant is because DDO doesnt follow 3.5 to the letter because 3.5 was not designed for an MMO, but it yields better, faster testing then in this game (just ask T.G.Oscar, he outright lifted his Radiant Servant of Pelor from DDO), such as how Smite evil damage is applied before critical multipliers. More specifically, the reason why anything better then a crit of 18-20x2 or 20x4 is overpowered is because it makes critical damage too effective.

The way I measured weapon effectiveness on the fly was using this formula: ((Crit Multiplier-1)*crit range)= Weapon Rating. A shuriken got a rating of 1, a Falcata gets a rating of 4, a great crossbow gets a rating of 3, a Heavy pick gets a rating of 3. Your Thinblade has a Weapon rating of 9.

Quellian-dyrae
2012-07-18, 04:14 PM
How much is a 19-20 weapon, and how would light or medium fortification affect this?

19-20/X4 is +30% - about equal to a 20/X4 or an 18-20/X2 after getting Improved Critical. However, it stacks with Improved Critical, which would bring the total to +60%.

My advice would be to make it so exotic weapons whose main benefit is crit capability go to either 17-20/X2, 20/X5, or 19-20/X3. All of those are basically one crit step better than the normal 18-20/X2 or 20/X4. Of those, 19-20/X3 is probably the most balanced, since the 17-20 one is very attractive to people with on-crit abilities. The X5 one is not going to be too impressive most of the time...it's just that every so often, you'll utterly demolish whatever you're swinging at (but the thing is, that's often the case even with just X3 or X4).

Although your point about fortification reminds me, it's not really a flat damage boost due to the confirmation roll (so if you have a 50% chance to confirm, the percentage boost is halved). And then of course, fortification would reduce it more, once you're at a level where that becomes common.

Even so, there are effects (such as Bless Weapon or the less-limited Dolorous Blow) that can auto-confirm criticals, which would be very desirable with weapons with crit power that high (and which will, I suppose, ignore the effects of fortification with these modifications, since rather than being a percent immunity to crits, only makes them harder to confirm).

Seerow
2012-07-18, 11:48 PM
except that people dont typically get a good examination of how powerful some of the crit modifiers are, such as un/holy power. with just Improved Critical, that is a 28.5% chance of 4 Negative Levels without save, meaning in one attack action, you likely just shaved off +4 Attack bonus, AC, Saves, and a huge chunk of health from your opponent, if you do that on your first attack, then your opponent is less likely to dodge your third attack, get the 8% chance on the second attack to crit again, and your opponent wont survive your standard attack action

(Un)Holy Power is an Epic Enhancement that costs a massive +8 bonus and can only be put on an epic weapon. This means your absolute minimum cost for such a weapon is 2.4million gold pieces. Stuff from the ELH generally isn't worth even trying to balance against because so much of it is terrible and unbalanced. Also at the time any character has access to this, casters are using crazy metamagiced Enervation for more reliable and most likely heavier level drain anyway.

Provide an example of anything that becomes broken with an 18-20x4 crit that actually comes up in normal play, and I'll reconsider. But your example falls far short.



I mean just straight damage wise, assuming all of your damage is increased on a crit (not guaranteed by any means between weapon properties and special abilities giving bonus dice that don't improve on a crit), 18-20x4 is worth 38.1% increase in damage vs a 20x2 weapon. When compared to the more common 18-20x2 (what this would actually be an upgrade from, that you're spending a feat on), it is only a 22.43% increase.

If you want to argue Keen makes it worse, Keen makes the change between 18-20x2 and 18-20x4 up to a 46.15% increase in damage from the x2 to x4. (Note: All numbers are assuming a 95% crit confirm chance. Any lower amount will reduce the numbers and thus the percentage increases)

We're not talking break your game instantly kill everything ever like the damage multiplier charging feats, we're talking a pretty decent increase in average damage. Is it a fair bit of damage? Yes. That does not automatically make it broken. Especially when feats that say "Multiply your damage by 2" aren't exactly hard to come by, and can typically be used with weapons that are two handed and get better damage dice, reach, and other abilities. It's simply making a different style of fighter potentially viable.


Math in spoiler

18-20x4
15%: 4 (95%) 1 (5%)
80%: 1
5%: 0

Average: 1.3775

20x2
5%: 2 (95%) 1 (5%)
90%: 1
5%: 0

Average: .9975

18-20x2
15%: 2(95%) 1(5%)
80%: 1
5%: 0

Average: 1.0925


15-20x2
30%: 2(95%) 1(5%)
65%: 1
5%: 0

Average: 1.235

15-20x4
30%: 4(95%) 1(5%)
65%: 1
5%: 0

Average: 1.805



Edit: For what it's worth, I personally prefer Keen, Improved Crit, and similar effects, to be stackable, but only +1 each time rather than doubling each time.

Also for the above suggestion of 17-20x2 or 20x5, those come out to be (with keen) only a 7.69% increase above a 18-20x2 weapon. That's not worth a feat. I mean that's barely competitive with weapon specialization(a widely acknowledged bad feat) until you're managing 50 multipliable damage per hit (not as easy as you'd expect when dealing with a one handed weapon).



Edit2:


Seerow, I looked at some of your weapons fixes, and liked your fortification change a lot. Makes more sense to me, given what AC is supposed to represent. I added it in, with some numbers changes. Hope that's alright.

Yeah by all means, feel free to snag anything from there.

Baron Corm
2012-07-20, 01:54 PM
Even so, there are effects (such as Bless Weapon or the less-limited Dolorous Blow) that can auto-confirm criticals, which would be very desirable with weapons with crit power that high (and which will, I suppose, ignore the effects of fortification with these modifications, since rather than being a percent immunity to crits, only makes them harder to confirm).

I think using this method of fortification, these would give a bonus to overcome fortification AC instead. Or possibly just not exist, since I don't want rogues to be forced to UMD various spells, essentially making fortification useless if your enemy spends more gold than you. It's a vicious circle. But I'll keep thinking about this.

I've added some more 1-handers in, because I noticed that the only one I had was the thinblade, and added some extra properties to exotic armors to make them all more than just a +1 to AC. As they were just added, they're likely to be imbalanced, so I'd appreciate any feedback!

I'm also especially curious about what people think about having bludgeoning weapons ignore a portion of armor AC.