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Grushvak
2009-10-05, 05:03 PM
I'm starting a campaign with a new group. The starting level is 1, and I doubt we'll get much further than level 5 or 6.

I know that some of the others I'll be playing with are excellent at min-maxing. Case in point: the VoP Monk I first thought of is already taken by another player, so I have to come up with something else.

I generally enjoy playing rogues and wizards, but this time around, I want something that will be able to shine in the group in a low-level range. No Pun-Pun though, I still have principles. Keep the cheese to a minimum.

I was thinking something along the lines of a druid or a barbarian, but I never built a character of either class.

chiasaur11
2009-10-05, 05:11 PM
Well, a druid with natural spell, good wisdom, and a fleshraker dinosaur is supposedly pretty good and mostly easy to run.

Might be worth a go.

ericgrau
2009-10-05, 05:14 PM
I started on this but hit a snag at every section when I realized it depends what books are allowed.

Grushvak
2009-10-05, 05:17 PM
I started on this but hit a snag at every section when I realized it depends what books are allowed.

No third party stuff, campaign setting content is on a DM-approval basis, and all the Complete [Class] are allowed. Aside from that, all core.

As long as it's not some obscure Dragon publication feat, or a complex template-based build relying on rare creatures, it should be good.

Siosilvar
2009-10-05, 05:20 PM
Well, a druid with natural spell, good wisdom, and a fleshraker dinosaur is supposedly pretty good and mostly easy to run.

Might be worth a go.

Natural Spell requires you to have wild shape, which you don't get until 5th.
Fleshraker is a -3 EDL, if I'm not mistaken, so you need to be at least 4th level.

Neither of which are level 1.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-05, 05:21 PM
You can be both! A Shapeshift Druid (PHB2) of the Orc race. +4 Strength, another +4 when in predator form (a panther or a wolf, not a Predator), plus whatever base you have. You get 50 foot speed, +4 natural armor, and unlimited shifting back and forth. What I didn't realize when I started this post is that you lose your awesome animal companion, but eh. Add barbarian rage for more Strength-based obscenity.

Grushvak
2009-10-05, 05:21 PM
Damned be my indecisiveness. I just learned that the third player chose druid as his starting class.

I suppose 2 druids would be kind of overkill. So, any fresh new ideas? I might just end up playing a run-of-the-mill unoptimised barbarian.

Siosilvar
2009-10-05, 05:23 PM
Spellthief? Nah, nevermind. Not at 1st level. But it would get you both Rogue- and Wizard-like abilities.

Tackyhillbillu
2009-10-05, 05:24 PM
Anything from the ToB? God I love that book. Fun from level 1 onwards.

Grushvak
2009-10-05, 05:28 PM
Anything from the ToB? God I love that book. Fun from level 1 onwards.

I can probably get the DM to agree.

tyckspoon
2009-10-05, 05:29 PM
Warlock's actually pretty nice at level 1 and doesn't lag too badly through the early-mid levels. They can be rather dull if you don't enjoy saying "I Eldritch Blast for 1d6" almost every round, however. And a normal spellcaster can do that shtick better with Precocious Apprentice + a Reserve feat anyway.. still a nifty class, tho.

sdream
2009-10-05, 05:29 PM
If you can stand the theme, a warlock with summon swarm invocation is nice at level one.

Swarms autohit, can attack many enemies at once, and the warlock version goes away as soon as you stop wanting it. (Much better than the mage version that sticks around attacking nearest creatures for a while, and you can do it as often as you like). Each of the swarm types has cool side effects too.

Level 2 go for innate wallwalking and you have a ton of mobility too.

I never tried it, but I heard it's nice. Complete Arcane I believe.

Ninja'd on warlock, but not on swarm. I've enjoyed my fey thermed locke, but skipped the swarm cheese. I just have passive invocations and it is a bit boring just eldritch blasting every turn... but I do do more damage than most, as ranged touch attacks are easy to land. (Swarms autohit, but get old fast I hear, replace it with something else when it gets old.) If you manage to make it to level 10 and 11, the sweet spot is Eldritch chain and the freezing tentacles - god the tentacles rock).

I would max con and dex, go swarm, crawl, shaken and get fey heritage feats (DR, SLAs)

ericgrau
2009-10-05, 05:29 PM
Martial characters tend to do great at low levels. Here are some ideas if you go barbarian.

General: Barbarians tend to be pretty easy, especially at low levels. Go for damage, possibly with the option to trip and do other special attacks. You don't need improved trip if you grab a tripping weapon like a guisarme and focus on things that are easy to trip, unless you plan on a trip focused build. After all feats are limited. And for the rest of the time the damage you lose from a guisarme is almost nothing. If OTOH you must have pure damage, grab a greatsword. Get a backup ranged weapon too, probably a composite longbow. Read up on the combat rules and keep your eyes open for good opportunities to disarm (mostly vs. bows and objects), grapple (vs. baddies that are lousy at melee), etc. vs. opponents that are lousy at it. If there's no stellar opportunity then just do damage. Get a warhorse even if it's just for the +1 to hit vs. medium creatures (higher ground). You only need a DC 5 ride check to stop the drawbacks.

Feats: You may find plenty of better feats in the complete series; I mostly know core. Toughness, even taken multiple times, is uber at low levels. If you get it you really better hope the game doesn't go past level 6, heh. Weapon focus is okay. Beyond that it depends what you want to do.

Gear: You'll never be able to afford a worthwhile magic weapon at those levels unless the DM is generous, so when divying loot go for AC, saves, stats (str & con) and misc utility stuff. Various potions are nice too.

Grushvak
2009-10-05, 06:25 PM
I've decided on shapeshifter druid for my first level. Now I only have to decide if I want to stay in this class or multiclass to barbarian. A rather tough decision.

Thanks for the advice everyone, I'm going to have fun with this build.

Flatulous
2009-10-05, 10:15 PM
If you're only going to go to five or six levels, just be a fighter. The first five levels they are easily one of the best classes. And one of the most fun to play.

Evil the Cat
2009-10-05, 10:28 PM
Beguiler is very solid at level 1, and remains both fun and effective throughout. It also qualifies for a number of prestige classes. You'll have most of the fun of playing both a wizard and a rogue at the same time! If you like to be more optimized, go the killer gnome route for some very fun shenanigans that aren't game-breaking, but are solid in virtually any group.

Mongoose87
2009-10-05, 10:50 PM
If you're only going to go to five or six levels, just be a fighter. The first five levels they are easily one of the best classes. And one of the most fun to play.

Let me introduce you to my friend "Warblade."

KellKheraptis
2009-10-05, 10:58 PM
Well, if you want a sneaky spellcaster from level 1, there is always the Arcane Swordsage...just make sure it doesn't give the DM a coronary.

Akal Saris
2009-10-05, 11:15 PM
Kell, I'm pretty sure that falls under "too cheesy."

A core+completes barbarian is solid for levels 1-6. I'd suggest grabbing Extra Rage from C. Warr, and possibly Intimidating Rage as well. If you have access to Unearthed Arcana, the Wolf totem barbarian from there can get you Improved Trip without spending points on Int, which is quite nice.

Check with your DM if you can get your AC back with the shapeshift druid, by the way - shapeshift is a weaker option than wild shape even with the AC.

Good luck and have fun!

KellKheraptis
2009-10-05, 11:27 PM
Kell, I'm pretty sure that falls under "too cheesy."

A core+completes barbarian is solid for levels 1-6. I'd suggest grabbing Extra Rage from C. Warr, and possibly Intimidating Rage as well. If you have access to Unearthed Arcana, the Wolf totem barbarian from there can get you Improved Trip without spending points on Int, which is quite nice.

Check with your DM if you can get your AC back with the shapeshift druid, by the way - shapeshift is a weaker option than wild shape even with the AC.

Good luck and have fun!

Failing Arcane Swordsage, there is also the Mystic Ranger, which is actually mechanically superior in the first couple levels (Full BAB, better HD). Take Sword of the Arcane Order at level 6, and you're a full gish!

Akal Saris
2009-10-06, 12:04 AM
I have to admit, I do love the mystic ranger =)

I had a big discovery for it the other day, when I noticed that the Wonderworker from BoED gave bonus spell slots like the Dragon Disciple did, but for divine casters as well, and it gave out 7 slots over 3 levels. So considering the mystic ranger's wacky spell progression (that IIRC stops at 17th anyhow), you could go mystic ranger 10/wonderworker 3, and end up trading 2 BAB for 7 more slots to fuel your crazy ranger spells like Foebane or just more wiz spells =)

(the actual build I came up with was was Human Mystic Ranger 6/Stalker of Kharesh 2/Ruathar 2/Wonderworker 3/Ranger +2/Stalker of Kharesh 5)

Grushvak
2009-10-10, 08:00 PM
I'm back after two play sessions, and here's the situation: we're one paladin, one cleric (me), and one vow of poverty shapeshifter druid. With decent optimization, we can pretty much all be even in efficiency.

What we didn't realize, however, was that this would be a low wealth campaign. We're closing in on level 3 and between the three of us (counting what the VoP druid gave away), we have around 500gp worth of gold and gear.

The paladin has a solid build. I myself had to sacrifice the DMM cheese because (a) flaws were not allowed, (b) I had to select domains from my Deity's list, Bahamut. Average domains, but nothing that will help me DMM. My charisma's at 14, so I'm not getting persisted spells until level 6. Even then, I won't be able to buff myself to be on par with the druid because the best tactical choice at this point will simply be to persist Girallon's Blessing on his predator form.

But this is then, and here is now. Me and the paladin, as gear-dependant classes, are already lagging behind. Our AC is lower, we walk at a third of his speed, and we're pretty much always encumbred. Magic items are going to be hard to come by. The paladin's probably reading this as well (hey dude) and I think he'd agree with me on these points.

What we need is ways to make the most out of what little wealth we'll be amassing. Lightweight (mithril) full plates? Or another enhancement that could increase our mobility?

I'm hoping for a bead of karma, a +2 charisma cloak and a nightstick eventually, but is that more important than changing my regular old chain shirt for something better? We really, really have to prioritize.

Also, I'm getting access to my level 2 spells next session in all likelihood. Any suggestions? I saw nothing that could be of particular help in either PHB or SC.

Tavar
2009-10-10, 08:12 PM
Unfortunately, Mithral Fullplate is way out of your league at this point. It goes for about 10,000gp with out any else added. Also, you seem to all be doing the same thing(melee damage), which is unfortunate, as it really makes imbalances noticeable. Any possibility of changing characters?

Grushvak
2009-10-10, 08:21 PM
Unfortunately, Mithral Fullplate is way out of your league at this point. It goes for about 10,000gp with out any else added. Also, you seem to all be doing the same thing(melee damage), which is unfortunate, as it really makes imbalances noticeable. Any possibility of changing characters?

Seeing how we started at level 1, melee damage was pretty much the only reasonable way to go. Squishy spellcasters were out of the question at a stage in a campaign when a single goblin can one-shot you if he gets lucky.

I'm going to get my share of save-or-suck spells later on and play mostly as a buffer-debuffer, since the situation will never allow for nightstick abuse and powerful stat-boosting items that could make me into a regular CoDzilla. But right now, my buffs are limited to Protection Devotion and Bless.

And even the save-or-suck thing... well, I have a relatively low wisdom, and I assume it won't be raining periapts and stat tomes. I don't see how starting a new character would change the problem, save maybe for a VoP monk. Maybe I could switch a few things around and go Sacred Fist, but I never played one.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-10, 08:27 PM
Hmm, VoP caster could work. I mean, VoP looks really attractive for quite a few classes if you won't be getting wealth anyway.

But yeah, you can play casters at low levels. You just need a healthy dose of con, toughness and or a toad if retraining is allowed, and a good magical buff or two.

Tavar
2009-10-10, 08:28 PM
Warlocks are also absurdly low Wealth/low stats. Seriously, they're pretty much the only class you could run Naked with an array of 6's and still have a chance of surviving.

Magic of Inacarnum also works with low wealth, as most of it's abilities essentially give you magic items. The only problem is that the system is somewhat complex: generally you have to read through it at least twice before you really understand it, but once you do it's probably the easiest system to use.

Grushvak
2009-10-10, 08:31 PM
Hmm, VoP caster could work. I mean, VoP looks really attractive for quite a few classes if you won't be getting wealth anyway.

But yeah, you can play casters at low levels. You just need a healthy dose of con, toughness and or a toad if retraining is allowed, and a good magical buff or two.

I forgot to mention that we're basically on a timer to finish the first quest, and that we get a lot of encounters per day. In half a day, we got a choker, followed by an otyugh, followed by 5(!!) Ettercaps. With 3 level 2 players out of healing spells. Basically, primary spellcasters are screwed.

I played with the idea of a warblade / swordsage / arcane swordsage, but the DM didn't know us too well, and though he was open to anything, we really got the feel that he wasn't open to fancy new classes that were out of core. I'm perfectly cool with that, by the way. I hated it myself when my players showed up with classes I had never heard of.

And anyway, I'm sticking with the cleric since we've got a nice roleplay concept going, and we're all brothers to boot. I would simply like to know how to make the most out of a cleric in a low-wealth campaign.

Gamerlord
2009-10-10, 08:48 PM
And anyway, I'm sticking with the cleric since we've got a nice roleplay concept going, and we're all brothers to boot. I would simply like to know how to make the most out of a cleric in a low-wealth campaign.

Sell your healing services?

Grushvak
2009-10-10, 08:56 PM
Sell your healing services?

Haha, nice idea but... Lawful Good. Not stupid good, but still deep enough in the annoying end of the alignment pool to not make people pay for healing when their lives are threatened.

Even if I could find a RP reason to do this, the paladin wouldn't stand for it. And anyway, everyone in this campaign world is even poorer than us. We killed a group of 15 bandits who had their own fort, and all they had in their coffers was ~100 gp. No kidding.

Grushvak
2009-10-10, 09:15 PM
Ok, I gave this some thought, and here's what this will be looking like by level 11. Level 11 here being the magical number at which I'll be able to cast a decent amount of DMM persisted spells, because level 11 means Contemplative 1 and Fire domain (turn water elementals).

Assuming I buy Extra Turning x2 by then (levels 3 and 9), and assuming the DM rules it so Extra Turning applies to both turn water natives and turn undead, also assuming I get a +2 cloak of charisma, I end up with a lot of assumptions.

I mean, I end up with around 2 x (3 + 4 (cha) + 8 (ET)) = 30 turn attempts, or 4 persisted spells.

Until that magical level 11 mark however, I'll be screwed as far as DMM (Persist) goes. As I said, Girallon's on the druid and that's probably it.

How can a priest do well in this situation? I'm not asking for alternate classes, or rebuilding from scratch: rather, I'm asking how I should develop my character and what role I should take to be the biggest help to the team.

It's kind of sad, but all I can come up with is Bull's Strengthing, Blessing and flanking so my buddies can do the fighting. With, of course, a lot of healing in-between fights. Stereotypical priest role, something that was supposedly reversed with the advent of CoDzilla.

Arbitrarity
2009-10-10, 09:16 PM
Turning water elementals or whatever doesn't work. DMM specifies turn UNDEAD attempts.

Grushvak
2009-10-10, 09:20 PM
Alright, looks like I was misled by the 3.5 Cleric Handbook. Thanks for clearing that up.

root9125
2009-10-10, 09:22 PM
Well... A level 1 kobold paladin with max Knowledge (Religion)... Who talks to Pazuzu...

I kid, I kid!

Grushvak
2009-10-10, 09:23 PM
Well... A level 1 kobold paladin with max Knowledge (Religion)... Who talks to Pazuzu...

I kid, I kid!

Ok, I won the game. What now? :smallwink:

root9125
2009-10-10, 09:29 PM
Now you ascend to godhood and take over the universe!!!

Grushvak
2009-10-10, 09:31 PM
Now you ascend to godhood and take over the universe!!!

Done. What now?

oxinabox
2009-10-10, 09:31 PM
Personally I suggest kraunaen Illuminum Archivist. (RoD, HoB) (just because thists want i really want to play in a low level game)
at lvl 1 take knowledge devotion.
at lvl 3 take enhanced power sigils.

at lvl 1 you have +1 CL bonus
at lvl 2 you have +2 CL bonus
at lvl 3 you have +3 CL bonus (feat required for this)

as an Archievist you can cast all divine spells, when you include domain spells that means almost all spells.
Mechanically you work like a wizard, preparing spells, learning them from scrolls.
You use wis for bonus spells, and Int for saving throws DC's.
you cdan't turn or rebuke undead, so not divine metamagic


you can use knowledge devotion and dark knowledge to turn you high int, and bonuses on int skill checks, to turn knowledge directly into power.


As a general rule for low lvl casters you can do alot worse than krau-iluminum no matter what caster youyr playing

Grushvak
2009-10-10, 09:38 PM
Nice idea, but making a new character is kind of out of the question right now, and the DM isn't comfortable with fancy classes and races from obscure books.

Tavar
2009-10-10, 09:43 PM
So in other words, your stats suck, your class sucks because of how the campaign is set up, as does your gear, and you can't change any of this.


Not really sure how we could help, then.:smallconfused:

Grushvak
2009-10-10, 09:46 PM
I'm not asking for a miracle, I'm just asking: what can I do in the upcoming levels to suck less?

This is my first time playing a priest. I'm very much clueless right now. Of course you won't be turning me into a tier 1 powerhouse: I'm just asking for a few helpful hints that will give me a small edge in the game.

EDIT: Also, saying that is "sucks" is a gross exaggeration. I'm not incredibly powerful, but I can probably at least rival a newbie in a regular old core only campaign. Which, huh... counts for something I guess.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-10, 09:47 PM
Use wands for healing. Buff allies when needed. Turn Undead as they come.

Grushvak
2009-10-10, 09:53 PM
Use wands for healing. Buff allies when needed. Turn Undead as they come.

Wands are actually a great idea: we're all Bahamut followers, so a wand of Faith Healing would only cost 750gp and earn us a total of 450 points of healing. Not too bad. That would let me memorize more buffs and utility spells, which I like.

With that done, how do I prioritize as far as magic items go? For a priest, what's the most important thing to buy, and what can wait?

Ertier
2009-10-10, 10:11 PM
For a melee type:

If you can get warforged approved... Go with a Warforged Knight (or Barbarian if PHBII is not allowed) with Adamantine Body. Combine this with 2 flaws and take toughness both times. This makes it possible to have a DR 2/- character with 23 hp at first level (12 [1 HD] + 6 [Toughness x2] + 5 [Con Score]), plus either rage (to further boost those HP) or the Knight's Challenge ability to engage heftier foes. This character is actually immune to most mundane attacks that, say, a kobold could throw at it. On top of that, you can take the "Slow" trait, reducing your move to 10 ft and adding one more hp per level. So that comes out to 24 hp at first level.

jiriku
2009-10-10, 10:40 PM
A couple of thoughts for you. You are a Lawful Good Cleric. If you can meet the requirements, you can get into Church Inquisitor as early as level 4. The first level of Church Inquisitor gives you the Inquisition domain, which you can swap for Knowledge Devotion. Even if you only invest 1 skill point in each of the six appropriate knowledge skills, you'll get +1 (and occasionally +2) to hit and damage against every enemy. This is almost as good as having a magic weapon.

And about that persisting. Once you get your DMM Persist going, persist ice axe. By sixth level you'll be doing 2d12+3 cold damage as a melee touch attack all day long. Knowledge Devotion and a possible power attack can augment this further. Since you're dealing energy damage instead of physical attacks, you can easily harm creatures with damage reduction. Let the druid manage his own self, while you become a wrecking ball all by your lonesome.

If ice axe isn't for you, brambles or spikes should be. You'll deal substantial damage even with a humble club, and a bronzewood longspear could be extremely effective.

From a defensive point of view, persisting magic circle against evil will be especially effective, since no one in the party is likely to be getting deflection or resistance bonuses from any other source.

Since you follow Bahamut, consider picking up Law Devotion, which will give you +3 to hit and +3 AC in one or more encounters per day.

For spells, be sure you're using lesser vigor to heal whenever you can, and not cure light wounds. You'll get more healing out of each spell slot with lesser vigor.

sonofzeal
2009-10-10, 10:43 PM
Wands are actually a great idea: we're all Bahamut followers, so a wand of Faith Healing would only cost 750gp and earn us a total of 450 points of healing. Not too bad. That would let me memorize more buffs and utility spells, which I like.

With that done, how do I prioritize as far as magic items go? For a priest, what's the most important thing to buy, and what can wait?

Wand of Lesser Vigor is the same price and gets you 550 healing. The downside is it happens over several rounds instead of all at once, but the upside is you auto-stabilize and keep healing if you go into negatives during those rounds.

oxinabox
2009-10-10, 10:53 PM
sorry i didn't read that the game had started.

If you can retrain a feat, or two:
go VoP also.
And then vow of nonviolance, and vow of peace.

Play a Holier than though art priest.
angle to be made a Saint.

Remember everyone can be redeemed.
Even if right now he's running at you with a great sword, shouting "My life for the Great Dragon Taimat, Down with the Heratics of Bahamut"
inside he's a nice person.
Once he's finished breaking his Ax on you VoP armour.
You can get him to reveal his good side, with mindrape (or the qood equivient if you must).
Hech if you can get your AC high enough, you could even start casting geas on him: 100 rounds latter he'll fail his save.

Grushvak
2009-10-10, 11:16 PM
A couple of thoughts for you. You are a Lawful Good Cleric. If you can meet the requirements, you can get into Church Inquisitor as early as level 4. The first level of Church Inquisitor gives you the Inquisition domain, which you can swap for Knowledge Devotion. Even if you only invest 1 skill point in each of the six appropriate knowledge skills, you'll get +1 (and occasionally +2) to hit and damage against every enemy. This is almost as good as having a magic weapon.

I was already going the Church Inquisitor way (something I implemented in my roleplay from the start), but I had no idea Knowledge Devotion was that good. I'll have to look into it. Also, thanks for the rest of the post.

I considered Ice Axe and even told my DM about this and DMM (Persist) to make sure he would allow it (it's kind of cheesy after all, if you ask me), and he was cool with it. But I honestly believe the group would fare better with Girallon's on the druid. It only states that he can't attack with normal weapons on top of using his four claw attacks. Bites aren't normal weapons.

So, from my understanding, that would be his full regular attack, plus 4 claw attacks at full attack bonus, 1d4 + full strength modifier damage. If he hits with two claws, add in a rake at full attack bonus, 2d4 + 1.5x strength modifier damage. Can get two rakes in if he attacks two different creatures, for a total of 6 extra attacks a day. Add in his VoP enhancements, his shapeshifter strength increase, bull's strength and bless and... well, you get the idea.

Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, some of this stuff may not be stackable. I'll look into it when I get there. Ice Axe will certainly make me feel good about myself, but though I haven't done the math, I believe Girallon's is the better choice.

Grushvak
2009-10-10, 11:27 PM
Even if you only invest 1 skill point in each of the six appropriate knowledge skills, you'll get +1 (and occasionally +2) to hit and damage against every enemy. This is almost as good as having a magic weapon.

I just read knowledge devotion and I think I'm missing something. The knowledge DC for +1 is 15. Now, this'll be relatively easy to get with Knowledge(Arcana) and Knowledge(Religion), eventually Knowledge(The Planes), but what about the other 3? I'm standing at 10 int, so I can't count on a high bonus to save me here.

oxinabox
2009-10-10, 11:39 PM
I just read knowledge devotion and I think I'm missing something. The knowledge DC for +1 is 15. Now, this'll be relatively easy to get with Knowledge(Arcana) and Knowledge(Religion), eventually Knowledge(The Planes), but what about the other 3? I'm standing at 10 int, so I can't count on a high bonus to save me here.

Your missing that you knowledge devotion lets you select one knowledge skill and add it to your class list forever.

so you have:
Knowledge Arcane, planes, religion.
plus your prefernce of Local (humaniod), Dugeioneering (aberations), and Nature (animals).

still don't have all, but with int 10 you'll struggle abit with the skill points to keep up 6 anyway. (i'ld go easy on the planes and go heavy on the arcana, and pick dungeoneering as your choice knolwedge skill (or local if your fighting people))

Grushvak
2009-10-10, 11:43 PM
Skill points are already a problem as is though. I need to pump up my spellcraft, obviously, and that leaves me with only 2 skill points per level, some of which I'd like to throw in concentration since I won't have the feats to afford shielded casting.

Isn't Inquisition domain good on its own? +4 on dispel could come in handy.

EDIT: To clarify, I currently have the Luck Domain and Protection Devotion. The devotion might sound like a weird choice but we'd probably be dead without it.

Luck domain has some nice spells but a second domain couldn't possibly hurt. Couldn't Inquisition fit the bill?

oxinabox
2009-10-10, 11:53 PM
Skill points are already a problem as is though. I need to pump up my spellcraft, obviously, and that leaves me with only 2 skill points per level, some of which I'd like to throw in concentration since I won't have the feats to afford shielded casting.

Isn't Inquisition domain good on its own? +4 on dispel could come in handy.

why do you need spellcraft?
(i haven't seen the church inquisitor entry reqs)
Do you plan on identifying spells?
learning from scrolls isn't done by clerics, as i'm sure you know.
and your not wanting synergy bonus on UMD with scrolls are you?

THere a feat in BoED Nymph-something gives you +1 skill point /lvl.

EDIT: Can we mount you on a Warhorse, and Put a lance in your hand?
Even without any mounted feats, you still do 2*(1d8+Str) or if you whole the lance in both hands:
2*(1d8+1.5str) (***)

A light warhorse shouldn't be out of pocket, if it is the try a mule.
It's shameful, but all mules are combat trained by default.

(***)
(since a lance becomes one handed if your mounted, and you cna then hold a one handed weapon with two hands to do more damage (holding a lance two handed and then chanrging makes sense from a physics perpective ))

Grushvak
2009-10-11, 12:00 AM
why do you need spellcraft?
(i haven't seen the church inquisitor entry reqs)
Do you plan on identifying spells?
learning from scrolls isn't done by clerics, as i'm sure you know.
and your not wanting synergy bonus on UMD with scrolls are you?

THere a feat in BoED Nymph-something gives you +1 skill point /lvl

I assumed identifying spells as they're cast was always important. I was under the impression that spellcraft should always be maxed for whoever has access to it, but maybe this is misguided of me.

oxinabox
2009-10-11, 12:05 AM
I assumed identifying spells as they're cast was always important. I was under the impression that spellcraft should always be maxed for whoever has access to it, but maybe this is misguided of me.

Nope, doesn't matter at all from my perspective.

The main reason to ideify a spell is soe you know which spell to counterspell it with.
Since it's unlikely you'll be readying an action to counterspell. and will then have a spell ready that's what's required.
your far morelikely tro ready and action to counter with dispell, wich doesn't care what it's being dispelled.


as a general rule things like martial lore, psicraft, and spellcraft* are almost useless, who cares what there exactly doing? i react the samewya nayway.

*some spellcraft is usefull for wizards copying spells from scrolls, but read magic give a decent bonus

tyckspoon
2009-10-11, 12:07 AM
I assumed identifying spells as they're cast was always important. I was under the impression that spellcraft should always be maxed for whoever has access to it, but maybe this is misguided of me.

It is important for *somebody* to do it for general adventuring purposes. It's not necessarily important for everybody who can to do it, especially if you have other important demands on your skill points (like trying to keep your Knowledge Devotion bonuses relevant.) If you're the only/primary spellcaster, however, then you probably do have to suck it up and take Spellcraft; even other classes that have Spellcraft on their list will tend to think of that as the caster's job.

Grushvak
2009-10-11, 12:09 AM
Nope, doesn't matter at all from my perspective.

The main reason to ideify a spell is soe you know which spell to counterspell it with.
Since it's unlikely you'll be readying an action to counterspell. and will then have a spell ready that's what's required.
your far morelikely tro ready and action to counter with dispell, wich doesn't care what it's being dispelled.


as a general rule things like martial lore, psicraft, and spellcraft* are almost useless, who cares what there exactly doing? i react the samewya nayway.

*some spellcraft is usefull for wizards copying spells from scrolls, but read magic give a decent bonus

I'm... still not comfortable dropping spellcraft. I really like to know everything that's happening on the battlefield. That's a tough choice here.

Guess I'll just sleep on it and decide by next Friday.

Thanks for the advice.

Grushvak
2009-10-11, 12:11 AM
It is important for *somebody* to do it for general adventuring purposes. It's not necessarily important for everybody who can to do it, especially if you have other important demands on your skill points (like trying to keep your Knowledge Devotion bonuses relevant.) If you're the only/primary spellcaster, however, then you probably do have to suck it up and take Spellcraft; even other classes that have Spellcraft on their list will tend to think of that as the caster's job.

Yeah, I believe I'm the only one who's really sinking points into this. Paladin wants his ride skill pretty high, and the druid is more into physical skills (jump, tumble, etc.)

Anyway, even if he had spellcraft, it's not like he could warn us when he identifies a spell being cast. He's always shifted in battle.

oxinabox
2009-10-11, 12:14 AM
I suggest:
Knowledge arcana to realise that the fact that the ball of fire appeared cos he cast fireball or similar.
Rather than:
Spellcaft to know that there gestures and this chanting means he is casting fireball.


get the druid to do spellcraft if you must, it's one of few skills he can use decently when wildshaped

tyckspoon
2009-10-11, 12:18 AM
It's not just for IDing spells, which is something I agree with Ox about- that's relatively unimportant in the middle of a fight. Spellcraft is also the go-to skill for learning about Weird Magic Crap (that and Know: Arcana and Religion will usually give you a pretty good idea about things.) Having it at a good level saves the party from having to actually test things empirically (IE, throwing the Barbarian in and asking him how he feels after.)

Grushvak
2009-10-11, 12:27 AM
The druid is almost always shifted, and I honestly don't know if the player has enough meta knowledge to know when a particular spell being cast is relevant to our situation and worthy of shifting out to warn the group.

If I believe dangerous spells are about to rain on us, I could certainly ready a counterspell to be thrown as soon as I hear an enemy casting, but I wouldn't enjoy wasting it on a lackey casting magic missile while another wizard is about to throw in a chained disintegrate, all just because I didn't have Spellcraft.

Given, the situations in which this could happen are pretty rare, but I still feel that having another domain to choose my spells from (Inquisition), a nice +4 bonus on dispel checks, and spellcraft high enough to know about every spell that's throw at my group, far outweighs having an occasional +1 atk/dmg against a creature type. The paladin's probably going to have a skillmonkey cohort, possibly a bard, so Lore checks won't be an issue either at this point.

Zergrusheddie
2009-10-11, 01:03 AM
Duskblades are pretty cool. Be an Orc with a 22 Strength and you can attack an opponent with metal armor at +9 for 3d6+11 damage with Power Attack and a Greatsword. The Intellect hit is not that big at low levels, and you only need to hit 16 to ever use the highest level Duskblade spells. As you are not going above level 7, Intellect is not that important as most Duskblades spells don't have saves.

Grushvak
2009-10-11, 01:11 AM
Can't start with a stat above 19 in this campaign, regardless of racial bonus. DM rule, and we all abide. It kind of broke my anthropomorphic lizard concept but whatever.

oxinabox
2009-10-11, 01:24 AM
It's not just for IDing spells, which is something I agree with Ox about- that's relatively unimportant in the middle of a fight. Spellcraft is also the go-to skill for learning about Weird Magic Crap (that and Know: Arcana and Religion will usually give you a pretty good idea about things.) Having it at a good level saves the party from having to actually test things empirically (IE, throwing the Barbarian in and asking him how he feels after.)

I disagree, knowledge arcana is the a perfectly surficent skill skill for knowing what Weird Magic Crap is.
Knowledge spellcraft is for knowing the inner working of a spell.
How it's cast.

I checked the book:
actaully understanding Weird Magic Crap is a spellcraft check DC 30.
knowledge arcane, can be used to understand 'arcane mysteries'
no detail given about the DC for that though

Kosjsjach
2009-10-11, 01:30 AM
I know I'm backtracking, but just wanted to clarify something.

(...)
at lvl 3 take enhanced power sigils.

at lvl 1 you have +1 CL bonus
at lvl 2 you have +2 CL bonus
at lvl 3 you have +3 CL bonus (feat required for this)


If you're taking pure archivist, that doesn't actually work.

Krau (“magic”): +1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities (up to a maximum value equal to the illumian’s character level).

A few months ago, I was giddy with the ramifications of an Illumian Archivist with Enhanced Power Sigils until I reread that. :smallfrown:

oxinabox
2009-10-11, 01:43 AM
Krau (“magic”): +1 bonus to caster level for all spells and spell-like abilities (up to a maximum value equal to the illumian’s character level).

Yes,
at lvl 1 a +1 bonus (Bonus equal to character lvl, no problem there)
at lvl 2 a +2 bonus (Bonus equal to character lvl, no problem there)
at lvl 3 a +3 bonus (Bonus equal to character lvl, no problem there)

... what are you getting at?
I see no point in wich my caster lvl bonus is greater than my character lvl.
Sure my total caster lvls greater, but it never mentions total caster lvl.

tyhe text is kinda ambiguous

Desmond Tiny
2009-10-11, 04:10 PM
Based on what you are saying I think you should play a warlock( my favorite class). Warlocks don't reley on high scores or powerful items.

Grushvak
2009-10-11, 04:28 PM
Thanks for the suggestion Desmond, but this thread is now about getting to most out of unoptimized clerics and paladins in low-level, low-wealth campaigns.

First thing I'm going for is a wand of Lesser Vigor. It's over 10 rounds but I'll still have spontaneous cure spells if I need that big heal right now. Then, I'll probably save up for an animated shield. Does an animated shield still cause encumbrance when it's floating? Because I might try to make it darkwood (+100gp) or mithral (+1000gp) to reduce the weight. I still don't know what will be my top priority after that, but I have time to think on it.

Eldariel
2009-10-11, 04:31 PM
Can't start with a stat above 19 in this campaign, regardless of racial bonus. DM rule, and we all abide. It kind of broke my anthropomorphic lizard concept but whatever.

That means you should play Human without a question. It's already pretty much the strongest race without adjustment limitation and there's literally no drawback to it if all playing Human does is apply -1 to your primary stat (since the bonus for 18 and 19 is the same).

And yeah, a bunch of solid level 1 options:
- Barbarian (especially Whirling Frenzy-variant with Pounce; reach weapon, Wolf-totem to pick Improved Trip on too and Extra Rage as your first feat)
- Duskblade (though it really gets onto its own on level 3)
- Fighter (again, it really takes off on level 2 with Dungeoncrasher)
- Wizard (as always, a Wizard is an excellent option on level 1, particularly a Conjurer with Abrupt Jaunt and probably Precocious Apprentice + Acid Splatter (or Fiery Burst for no save) reserve; you'll be very hard to touch with all-day attack and a very powerful array of encounter enders)
- Loredrake Dragonwrought Desert Kobold Sorcerer (yeah, yeah, it's specific but it gets you level 2 spells on level 2)
- Druid (just equip your animal companion properly, perhaps pick up Ashbound and Spellgifted: Conjuration or Spell Thematics along with Greenbound Summoning and you'll be tossing out insane summons with all your level 1 slots)
- Warblade (just take Punishing Stance, reach weapon, few solid damage strikes and you're set)
- Crusader (Stone Power, Martial Spirit, cure strikes and you're as tough as level 1 gets)
- Cleric (Persist some buffs, pick Domain Spontaneity in some domain with some incredible level 1 spells, go to town)
- Dragonborn of Bahamut Dragonfire Adept (go to town with Entangling Exhalation & all...yeah)
Just for reference.


Animated Shield, no I wouldn't say so. But it costs a minimum of 9k (+2 ability and the minimum of +1 enhancement) so I can't see it worth the wait. Get +1 armor and all first. Animated Shield is really a midlevel item.

Other item besides Wand of Lesser Vigor I'd suggest is the Healing Belt. It just plain kicks ass when you need a LOT of healing now. Yeah, I know you have Cures, but this allows healing without expending spellslots and the 4d8 is something you won't reach with spells in a while.

Keld Denar
2009-10-11, 04:40 PM
Dragonfire Adepts (Dragon Magic, an actual published book, not to be confused with the Dragon Magazines) are also nicely low-wealth dependant. Nab Entangling Exhalation from Races of the Dragon and you spit out a pretty decent bit of damage + damage over time, and you have some decent debuffing capabilities. Fun and versatile, and with Con focus, actually pretty survivable at low levels!