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View Full Version : Monster Fight club [3.Xe] (read for explanation)



Volkov
2009-10-06, 07:58 PM
This is a thread to discuss which 3.x monsters would win in a fight in the spirit of the History Channel's Jurassic Fight Club and the Discovery Channel's Animal face off.. I was interested in this subject so I started this thread. First discussion. Every day I'll post a fight, and you'll be able to discuss it, after a while, I may let others post their own fights. All fights posted will be for monster vs monster only. However, if the monster is capable of having minions, you can factor them in your argument to increase the battle's intensity.

Kraken vs Megalodon in the elemental plane of water.

Eldariel
2009-10-06, 09:11 PM
Megalodon's D&D stats and description are where? Or are we talking about the real article?

Emy
2009-10-06, 09:12 PM
This is more like Mega Shark vs Giant Octopus.

By the way, the kraken very easily beats the megalodon. No contest.

The megalodon's special attacks don't work against the kraken, because they're the same size category. The megalodon has 10 more HP (300 vs 290), and is much faster than the kraken. Those are its only two advantages. The megalodon has 1 attack, which is a bite at +24. The kraken has this attack routine: 2 tentacles +28 melee (2d8+12/19-20) and 6 arms +23 melee (1d6+6) and bite +23 melee (4d6+6), with extra free grapple damage if any arms or tentacles hit. In addition, it has some other special abilities, like Jet and Ink Cloud, or the offensive dominate animal spell like ability, which has a 2/5 chance of ending the fight before it even really begins.

edit: Eldariel, megalodon is in MM2

Eldariel
2009-10-06, 09:33 PM
Oh, lookey, so it seems. To OP: Would be helpful if you mentioned non-SRD sources used in the future :smalltongue:


Kraken truly has Megalodon dominated on all fronts (even speed-wise, Jet outpaces double-move from Megalodon, though I suppose Megalodon's Run is still faster). Let's not forget a huge point Emy didn't mention: Kraken is intelligent. Actually, not only is it Intelligent, it is a ****ing Genius. Base Kraken has Int 21. This means the Kraken can make traps, use the environment much more efficiently, probably has access to magic items and so on (they have +16 Use Magic Device).

It also has Control Weather & Control Winds Spell-Likes, with which I see it having little trouble destroying a Megalodon without actually ever engaging. But yeah, purely martially, 8 tentacles+1 mouth > 1 mouth, and Kraken even has 60' reach. And +30 Spot vs. +6 Spot means Kraken probably pinpoints Megalodon long before Megalodon pinpoints Kraken (at 180' with Keen Scent).


Advanced Giant Squid may be a more fair opponent, though I fear it loses horribly if not advanced into Gargantuan, and wins handily if advanced to Gargantuan.

Volkov
2009-10-07, 05:52 AM
Second fight, The megalodon is the loser.

The new fight is the Dread Linnorm vs The Phoenix. Both are in the Monster Manual 2.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-10-07, 06:02 AM
Linnorm wins, hands down, due to its 18th level Sorcerer spellcasting. Anything the Phoenix can do, the Linnorm would be able to thwart, and there's just no way the Phoenix could survive the Linnorm's arsenal.

Volkov
2009-10-07, 06:43 AM
A new fight shall also be posted, Corpse Tearer Linnorm vs Great Wyrm Red Dragon. You can still debate the previous fight if you wish.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-07, 08:44 AM
Gotta give the edge to the Great Worm Red, though it depends on spell loadout. Dragon has better spell selection (19th level caster vs 17th, access to almost every spell that the Linnorm has as well)... Higher fly speed, Better AC, Better physical attack modes, more feats, and more saves.

The linnorm has more movement modes (burrow and swim), and better maneuverability, despite having less than half the fly speed (200 clumsy vs 90 good), as well as better SR. (32 vs 39)

Provided the Dragon's loadout of spells is mostly buff spells, it's got a clear advantage, with the ability to dictate the range the fight's fought at. The dragon could actually win with only 4 breath weapon uses, while staying at range.

Both are unlikely to directly affect the other with spells, though the linnorm has the edge with a 30% chance versus a 5% chance.

The Linnorm has more spell flexibility, while the dragon has more feat flexibility. For example, Awaken Spell Resistance even a few times would make the Linnorm's chance to punch most spells through nonexistent. In addition, the dragon has access to 4 more feats.

I don't see the negative levels playing enough of a role at this damage level to have a meaningful impact on the fight.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-07, 10:19 AM
Gotta give the edge to the Great Worm Red, though it depends on spell loadout. Dragon has better spell selection (19th level caster vs 17th, access to almost every spell that the Linnorm has as well)... Higher fly speed, Better AC, Better physical attack modes, more feats, and more saves.

The linnorm has more movement modes (burrow and swim), and better maneuverability, despite having less than half the fly speed (200 clumsy vs 90 good), as well as better SR. (32 vs 39)

Provided the Dragon's loadout of spells is mostly buff spells, it's got a clear advantage, with the ability to dictate the range the fight's fought at. The dragon could actually win with only 4 breath weapon uses, while staying at range.

Both are unlikely to directly affect the other with spells, though the linnorm has the edge with a 30% chance versus a 5% chance.

The Linnorm has more spell flexibility, while the dragon has more feat flexibility. For example, Awaken Spell Resistance even a few times would make the Linnorm's chance to punch most spells through nonexistent. In addition, the dragon has access to 4 more feats.

I don't see the negative levels playing enough of a role at this damage level to have a meaningful impact on the fight.

Negative levels deal 5 damage, -1 caster, destroying a higher level spell slot, saves, etc.
With 17 caster, 3 negative levels = 3 spell slots, 14 caster (meaning no 8th or 9th level spells), and 15 damage.

They can have an impact.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-07, 10:34 AM
Negative levels deal 5 damage, -1 caster, destroying a higher level spell slot, saves, etc.
With 17 caster, 3 negative levels = 3 spell slots, 14 caster (meaning no 8th or 9th level spells), and 15 damage.

They can have an impact.

I'm familiar. What I'm saying is that the dragon:

A) Has access to Death Ward, and
B) Deals enough damage to kill the Linnorm in the amount of time it takes to deal 3 negative levels.

130+ average damage with the breath weapon. The Linnorm needs a 20 to save for half.

The Linnorm has about 400 HP.

The physical attack modes are also impressive, for the red, and that says nothing of the breath alteration spells.

A single high level breath alteration spell by the dragon, and the Linnorm needs to roll an 18+ or take 2d4 neg levels as well.

Or it deals ice damage instead of fire.

The offense levels we're dealing with here make the linnorm badly outmatched.

Then there's the grapple/Pin tactic, which the Great Wyrm has an edge in.

The dragon dominates almost every aspect of this encounter.

Eldariel
2009-10-07, 11:01 AM
If Great Wyrm Red has Awaken Spell Resistance, I frankly cannot see the Linnorm winning just about ever. Great Wyrm Red can pick Multispell a dozen times along with Automatic Quicken for all its spells and has incredible array of skillpoints by comparison. It also has the Assay Resistance-line available along with probable Practiced Spellcaster to easily penetrate Linnorm's spell defenses, while Linnorm has considerably more difficulties doing the same.

And yeah, Great Wyrm Red probably has some type of an access to Greater Restoration anyways to negate the negative levels even if the Linnorm manages to penetrate Great Wyrm Red's defenses. And of course, an insane HP/HD advantage to withstand those negative levels.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-07, 02:06 PM
If Great Wyrm Red has Awaken Spell Resistance, I frankly cannot see the Linnorm winning just about ever. Great Wyrm Red can pick Multispell a dozen times along with Automatic Quicken for all its spells and has incredible array of skillpoints by comparison. It also has the Assay Resistance-line available along with probable Practiced Spellcaster to easily penetrate Linnorm's spell defenses, while Linnorm has considerably more difficulties doing the same.

And yeah, Great Wyrm Red probably has some type of an access to Greater Restoration anyways to negate the negative levels even if the Linnorm manages to penetrate Great Wyrm Red's defenses. And of course, an insane HP/HD advantage to withstand those negative levels.

Provided the fight lasts that long. These guys sling a lot of damage. There's time for restoration afterwards.

Volkov
2009-10-07, 03:30 PM
I wonder how much of an impact a Dread Linnorm's typically quite large number of undead servants, minions, and possibly followers would have on the fight, then again the Red Dragon probably would have it's own small army of minions. Which would could be quite an interesting factor. Then again, the Red dragon's breath weapon is a mass mook killer. So the Dread linnorm may find itself deprived of minions quite rapidly. The Linnorm however, can immobilize the living minions of the dragon with one blast of his breath weapon. However, his breath weapon really lacks any immediate killing power. The disease breath weapon's incubation time is simply too long to play much of a factor in a fight.

But in my opinion the linnorm would probably either walk away dead, get killed and have his corpse revived as an undead servant of the Red dragon, a permanent vassal of the dragon, or with grave injuries and an even more badly wounded pride. Or possibly a combination of the latter two. Mainly the Linnorm's only real trump cards are Dimension door, Some cleric spells, a negative energy claw attack, burrowing, swimming, water-breathing, and better maneuverability in the air. However, the dragon can fix the last advantage with a simple spell in the draconomicon or an item.

Another_Poet
2009-10-07, 03:42 PM
Just curious, is there a reason why we're just discussing this fight? Pull out the stats and roll initiative!

Volkov
2009-10-07, 03:44 PM
Just curious, is there a reason why we're just discussing this fight? Pull out the stats and roll initiative!

Ever tried assigning skill points, feats, and spell slots to a Great Wyrm InsertAdjectiveHere Dragon? It's a long process.

Eldariel
2009-10-07, 03:53 PM
Provided the fight lasts that long. These guys sling a lot of damage. There's time for restoration afterwards.

Yeah, but if the Red Dragon feels like it, it can Quicken (I'm throwing a wild guess that it either has Automatic Quicken or Rapid Metamagic) it as one of its Multispell actions. Epic feats are pretty sick; Great Wyrm Red has 4 more than Corpse Eater.

Volkov
2009-10-07, 03:57 PM
Both the red dragon and the corpse tearer could try Gate related cheese. Although, the Red Dragon has much more XP to burn than the Linnorm, and it can hold it's gate open longer than the Linnorm could. Of course, with rules as intended, it could instead summon a howler dragon, tartarean dragon, shadow dragon, styx dragon, or chaotic evil chaos dragon of wyrm or great wyrm age to assist it. But the linnorm could probably do the same thing.

Another_Poet
2009-10-07, 04:15 PM
Ever tried assigning skill points, feats, and spell slots to a Great Wyrm InsertAdjectiveHere Dragon? It's a long process.

I assumed you'd use the stats out of the book/SRD.

Otherwise, have people who are rooting for each creature work together to assign the skills and feats. Have people from the other team look it over for rules-legality. Then begin the match.

Volkov
2009-10-07, 04:20 PM
I assumed you'd use the stats out of the book/SRD.

Otherwise, have people who are rooting for each creature work together to assign the skills and feats. Have people from the other team look it over for rules-legality. Then begin the match.
Woah I just got a huge rush of Deja-vu.

lsfreak
2009-10-07, 04:25 PM
I assumed you'd use the stats out of the book/SRD.

What stats in the SRD/MM? :smalltongue:

Volkov
2009-10-07, 04:30 PM
The only fully statted out great wyrm red dragon in a book is on the draconomicon, not in any core book.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-07, 04:51 PM
Source for each?

And Dragons are not statted out in the MM. General statistics are, along with guidelines for feats, spells, and skill selection, as well as hoard.

That said, the Linnorm does not have a Cleric spell advantage. The Red has access to the cleric list as arcane spells.

Volkov
2009-10-07, 04:52 PM
Source for each?

And Dragons are not statted out in the MM. General statistics are, along with guidelines for feats, spells, and skill selection, as well as hoard.

That said, the Linnorm does not have a Cleric spell advantage. The Red has access to the cleric list as arcane spells.

MM2, the megapede is in between the colossal monstrous centipede and ruin centipede in power at a cr of 20. But it looks more like a CR 17 or 18 monster in stats.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-07, 04:56 PM
Ugh, I'd have to apply a template to one of the creatures. I'll let someone else field this one.

Volkov
2009-10-07, 04:58 PM
Ugh, I'd have to apply a template to one of the creatures. I'll let someone else field this one.

Paragon giant centipedes will leave your players with nightmares for the rest of their lives if you use them right. The hundred legged horror.....Oh Gods the hundred legged horror!!!!!!

Any way back on topic people.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-07, 05:00 PM
Work on my off days is what fills this gamer with horror, friend. :smallbiggrin:

Volkov
2009-10-07, 08:09 PM
New Fight
Varakhut vs Pit Fiend.

Eldariel
2009-10-07, 08:30 PM
Varakhut is in Fiend Folio (yeah, we still need to know :P)


There is one huge unknown here: Has Pit Fiend used its Wish already? Because it makes all the difference. Physically, Pit Fiend absolutely dominates Valakhut, but Valakhut is a caster. If Pit Fiend doesn't have his Wish, he's got very little to counteract Valakhut's Time Stop + 3 Limited Wishes and the Wish (not to mention, the infinite Dominate Monster is eventually going to work; DC 25 vs. Will +21).

Also, even though Pit Fiend easily hits and isn't hit vs. Valakhut, Valakhut is immune to the poison, disease and fear aura and has DR 20/Chaotic & Adamantine that the Pit Fiend will have serious issues actually HURTING the Valakhut (grappling or such works, of course, but Valakhut has Dimension Door at will). Fireball & Meteor Swarm will have to go through the SR 30 (which isn't Pit Fiend's strong suite) and then there's the Fast Healing 20.


So yeah, given that Valakhut is almost completely impervious to everything Pit Fiend can do while Pit Fiend has a thousand paths of attack to fear from the Valakhut, barring a potent Wish, potent Summon Baatezu (which would probably be negated by a momentary Teleport escape from the Valakhut; the summoned Baatezu cannot use their own teleportation powers) or some nifty equipment, I'm giving this one to Valakhut.

dspeyer
2009-10-08, 01:14 AM
As for the red dragon, would you allow him to take Keeper of Forbidden Lore, max out in-class spellcraft and then either retrain or chaos shuffle a feat into epic spellcasting?

The corpse tearer can't do things like this because his feats and skills are in the statblock.

Really, the red dragon's flexibility is a huge advantage when both are played by optimizers.

Zaydos
2009-10-08, 01:27 AM
Pit fiends have SR 32, DR 15/silver and good, and regeneration 5. The only thing it really needs to fear from the varakhut is Wish since it will regen anything that's not holy. Its attack bonus is significantly higher and its AC is higher, so all it needs to do is keep grappling the varakhut which means that Dimension Door needs a DC 20 concentration check which will cause trouble for a varakhut's +0 concentration bonus. Pit fiend wins unless varakhut really puts its wish and limited wish powers to extremely good use and even then I have to say the advantage is for the pit fiend.

Volkov
2009-10-08, 05:52 AM
Varakhut is in Fiend Folio (yeah, we still need to know :P)


There is one huge unknown here: Has Pit Fiend used its Wish already? Because it makes all the difference. Physically, Pit Fiend absolutely dominates Valakhut, but Valakhut is a caster. If Pit Fiend doesn't have his Wish, he's got very little to counteract Valakhut's Time Stop + 3 Limited Wishes and the Wish (not to mention, the infinite Dominate Monster is eventually going to work; DC 25 vs. Will +21).

Also, even though Pit Fiend easily hits and isn't hit vs. Valakhut, Valakhut is immune to the poison, disease and fear aura and has DR 20/Chaotic & Adamantine that the Pit Fiend will have serious issues actually HURTING the Valakhut (grappling or such works, of course, but Valakhut has Dimension Door at will). Fireball & Meteor Swarm will have to go through the SR 30 (which isn't Pit Fiend's strong suite) and then there's the Fast Healing 20.


So yeah, given that Valakhut is almost completely impervious to everything Pit Fiend can do while Pit Fiend has a thousand paths of attack to fear from the Valakhut, barring a potent Wish, potent Summon Baatezu (which would probably be negated by a momentary Teleport escape from the Valakhut; the summoned Baatezu cannot use their own teleportation powers) or some nifty equipment, I'm giving this one to Valakhut.
I'm pretty sure the Varakhut's DR is 50/+5.

Kaiyanwang
2009-10-08, 06:53 AM
I'm pretty sure the Varakhut's DR is 50/+5.

Has been updated. DR X / +Y does not exist in 3.5.

Unless of course, DR / Magic, meaning "at leats a +1 weapon, and DR /epic, meaning "at least a +6 weapon".

Volkov
2009-10-08, 03:37 PM
New fight 45 hit dice Mithral Golem vs max hit dice Zodar.

dspeyer
2009-10-08, 09:22 PM
Mithral Golem is from the Epic Handbook (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/golem.htm#mithralGolem)
Zodar is from Fiend Folio

This one goes to the golem. It isn't even close.

Zoder:
AC: 28
Attack: 40 (53 for one round)
Grapple: 40 (53 for one round)
Damage 2d6+7
Attacks per round: 2
HP: 258
DR: none

Golem:
AC: 42
Attack: 39
Grapple: 49
Damage 4d10+14
Attacks per round: 3
HP: 238
DR: 15

The Golem's size gives it a big edge in grappling, so the Zodar's best chance is a slugging match. Every blow hits (except nat 1s), but the Golem gets in an extra shot each round thanks to haste. Furthermore, the Golem does a lot of damage, whereas the Zodar can barely penetrate damage reduction. It takes a while to pound the Zodar into dust, but they're both immune to boredom.

Ah, you say, what about wish? The most powerful SLA in the game, no? Well, not really. Straightforward wishes will bounce off the golem's magic immunity. Indirect wishes? Those are limited only by the creativity of the caster. Usually that's a good thing, but Zodars are mindless. They have no creativity.

Volkov
2009-10-13, 06:54 AM
The Zodar has massive amounts of DR. That the golem can't even hope to penetrate.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-13, 08:36 AM
The Zodar's wish description states that it's typically subtle, and typically of great importance. This would seem contrary to the previous assessment of the Zodar's Wishing capability.

However, the Mithril Golem deals damage via slam attacks, which are Bludgeoning. That does bypass Zodar's special qualities. Mithril Golem does an average of 36 per hit, a maximum single hit damage of 54, and a maximum crit of 108.

Zodar deals an average of 14 damage, a maximum standard hit of 19, and a maximum crit of 38.

Mithril Golems are immune to extra damage from crits, however, lowering that to 14/19/19. For three rounds a day, the damage goes up to 27/32/32.

In other words, Zodar has a very tough time punching through the Golem's DR, whereas the Golem can hurt Zodar at will for full damage, with the opportunity for spike damage.

Golem's got that fight rather handily.

EDIT: It should be noted that the Zodar has no DR at all. Just an Invulnerability Special Quality that is bypassed by Bludgeoning weapons.

Sir_Chivalry
2009-10-13, 08:42 AM
No, no, no, no, no! You've broken the first rule of Monster Fight Club! You do not talk about Monster Fight Club!

Volkov
2009-10-14, 06:58 AM
New fight: Winged Psuedonatural Paragon Devastation Beetle vs A Great wyrm force dragon. The beetle has true seeing.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-10-14, 09:34 AM
The beetle doesn't fly. Therefore the dragon wins.

hamishspence
2009-10-14, 09:36 AM
Can the "winged" template from Savage Species be added to the beetle to even the match up a little?

Eldariel
2009-10-14, 10:24 AM
Can the "winged" template from Savage Species be added to the beetle to even the match up a little?

Eh...you could apply any number of Templates to the Beetle and it wouldn't make an ounce of difference. Force Dragon is a powerful spellcaster in addition to being an insanely fast ranged skirmisher and melee powerhouse. Devastation Beetle is...well, not.

Force Dragon has CL 36 spellcasting; not only does that give him insane offense, but it qualifies him for feats that autowin the match and obviously Epic Spellcasting, and provides it with such buff-capabilities that it can just outnumber even a Paragon Devastation Beetle. And of course, the Beetle has nothing vs. the various Displacement/Invisibility/Blur defenses the Dragon enjoys nor evasion; 195 damage per breath adds up even without metabreath feats and spells.


Overall, the Devastation Beetle is so completely and thoroughly outmatched that it's not even funny.

hamishspence
2009-10-14, 10:28 AM
yup- I think that's the main thing about dragons- caster power and combat power combined.

Are there any non-dragon monsters which might stack up well against an epic dragon of the same CR, with the right feat selection and templates?

Eldariel
2009-10-14, 10:42 AM
yup- I think that's the main thing about dragons- caster power and combat power combined.

Are there any non-dragon monsters which might stack up well against an epic dragon of the same CR, with the right feat selection and templates?

All the Outsiders are just fine in that regard, especially Angels with their Cleric-casting. Also, Liches/Demiliches. Epic Dragons tend to be over-CRd, even if they are quite impressive. Some Aberrations are pretty interesting too. Really, it comes down to having access to relevant spell-likes (and preferably spells) with sufficient offense to take down überbuffed monsters (or dispels to get rid of them).

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-14, 11:09 AM
All the Outsiders are just fine in that regard, especially Angels with their Cleric-casting. Also, Liches/Demiliches. Epic Dragons tend to be over-CRd, even if they are quite impressive. Some Aberrations are pretty interesting too. Really, it comes down to having access to relevant spell-likes (and preferably spells) with sufficient offense to take down überbuffed monsters (or dispels to get rid of them).

+1.

Verily, Eldariel knoweth his excrement.

Volkov
2009-10-14, 04:27 PM
There. More templates for the beetle.. Of doom. Seriously, 25d10 damage for a bite attack is a bit much.

Eldariel
2009-10-14, 05:19 PM
There. More templates for the beetle.. Of doom. Seriously, 25d10 damage for a bite attack is a bit much.

Uh, have you checked the Dragon's HP? Or physical attacks? 25d10 merely averages 137, so mere 160 or so. This is CR 60-70; that's a fcking joke. I can build level 20 characters dealing that much damage per attack. That said, its 36 Tentacle-attacks from Pseudonatural make it actually do something; 2d6 is unimpressive base damage, but there's something like 79 Str and +20 Luck on the damage rolls so they deal +54 or so per hit so they can at least hit for couple of thousands of points per turn. And the spell-likes help a lot (particularly the at-will Dimension Door).

That said, the Dragon is still a CL 36 spellcaster. The Devastation Beetle also loses out a relevant bunch of its immunities, though its access to feats enables fixing much of that. It's quite tough to kill. I'd count the HP, but honestly, I don't want to. Eh, I'll just stat it out here, then you can discuss:

Devastation Beetle:
Size/Type: Colossal Vermin
Hit Dice: 128d8+2,304 (2,880 hp)
Initiative: +10 (Dex)
Speed: 70 ft.
Armor Class: 72 (-8 size, +10 Dex, +60 natural)
Base Attack/Grapple: +96/+128
Attack: Bite +104 melee
Full Attack: Bite +104 melee (25d10+24)
Space/Reach: 50 ft./40 ft.
Special Attacks: Trample 30d10+24, acid cloud
Special Qualities: Darkvision 300 ft., SR 60, DR 20/-
Saves: Fort +84, Ref +52, Will +42
Abilities: Str 42, Dex 31, Con 46, Int Ø, Wis 10, Cha 9
Skills: Jump +28, Listen +0, Spot +0
Environment: Any land
Organization: Solitary or cluster (2-5)
Challenge Rating: 50
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: None

Winged Devastation Beetle:
Winged:
+4 Dex, +2 Wis
Fly-speed = Land-speed +20', maneuvrability dependent on Dex (17+ = Perfect)

Size/Type: Colossal Vermin
Hit Dice: 128d8+2,304 (2,880 hp)
Initiative: +12 (Dex)
Speed: 70 ft.; fly 90 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 74 (-8 size, +12 Dex, +60 natural)
Base Attack/Grapple: +96/+128
Attack: Bite +104 melee
Full Attack: Bite +104 melee (25d10+24)
Space/Reach: 50 ft./40 ft.
Special Attacks: Trample 30d10+24, acid cloud
Special Qualities: Darkvision 300 ft., SR 60, DR 20/-
Saves: Fort +84, Ref +54, Will +43
Abilities: Str 42, Dex 35, Con 46, Int Ø, Wis 12, Cha 9
Skills: Jump +28, Listen +1, Spot +1
Environment: Any land
Organization: Solitary or cluster (2-5)
Challenge Rating: 51
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: None

Pseudonatural (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/pseudonaturalCreature.htm) Winged Devastation Beetle:
Size/Type: Colossal Outsider (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 128d8+2,304 Maximized (3,968 hp)
Initiative: +17 (Dex)
Speed: 140 ft.; fly 180 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 74 (-8 size, +12 Dex, +60 natural)
Base Attack/Grapple: +96/+128
Attack: Bite +130 melee (25d10+40) or tentacle rake +130 melee (2d8+27)
Full Attack: Bite +130 melee (25d10+40) or 36 tentacle rakes +130 melee (2d8+27)
Space/Reach: 50 ft./40 ft.
Special Attacks: Constant insight, improved grab, rotting constriction, trample 30d10+40, acid cloud
Special Qualities: Darkvision 300 ft., SR 640, acid and electricity resistance 170, spell-like abilities, DR 20/-
Saves: Fort +89, Ref +59, Will +48
Abilities: Str 64, Dex 45, Con 56, Int 3, Wis 22, Cha 9
Skills: Jump +28, Listen +6, Spot +6 (should get ranks now, 128 to be precise)
Feats: Gets feats now
Environment: Any land
Organization: Solitary or cluster (2-5)
Challenge Rating: 61
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: None

Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) Pseudonatural Winged Devastation Beetle
Size/Type: Colossal Outsider (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 128d8+3200+1536 Maximized (5,760 hp)
Initiative: +29 (Dex)
Speed: 420 ft.; fly 540 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 105 (-8 size, +29 Dex, +12 insight, +12 luck, +60 natural)
Base Attack/Grapple: +96/+146
Attack: Bite +162 melee (25d10+71) or tentacle rake +162 melee (2d8+54)
Full Attack: Bite +162 melee (25d10+71) or 36 tentacle rakes +162 melee (2d8+54)
Space/Reach: 50 ft./40 ft.
Special Attacks: Constant insight, improved grab, rotting constriction, trample 30d10+51, acid cloud
Special Qualities: Darkvision 300 ft., SR 640, acid and electricity resistance 170, cold and fire resistance 10, fast healing 20, spell-like abilities (CL 35), DR 20/-
Saves: Fort +106, Ref +76, Will +65
Abilities: Str 79, Dex 69, Con 61, Int 18, Wis 37, Cha 24
Skills: Jump +200, Listen +33, Spot +33 (should get ranks now, 128 to be precise)
Feats: Gets feats now
Environment: Any land
Organization: Solitary or cluster (2-5)
Challenge Rating: 76
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: None

Spell-likes:
At will—blur, dimension door, shield, unhallow (CL 35), 3/day greater dispel magic, haste, and see invisibility (CL 15)


Things not marked:
+15 CL to all spell-likes
+13 insight on all special attacks
+10 competence to all skills
Gets 43 feats, 36 of which can be epic
Gets 768 skill points with max ranks of 131

Toss on True Seeing and that should be the final product.


I do think the Dragon can simply Time Stop and trap it in some maze of Walls of Force under Dimensional Lock (Dragon's CL is way too high for the Greater Dispel Magic to work), but then killing it will be much harder.

Though with those ranks, it can reach high enough Escape Artist to walk through Walls of Force, making it much, much harder especially with also Exceptional Deflection in the deal.

Volkov
2009-10-14, 05:21 PM
Sr640!!?!?!!!!! Holy fricken jeebus.

Eldariel
2009-10-14, 05:23 PM
Sr640!!?!?!!!!! Holy fricken jeebus.

Yeah, Pseudonatural template has this wonderful line:
"SR 5xHD"

Guess what Devastation vermins especially excel at...

Volkov
2009-10-14, 05:26 PM
Yeah, Pseudonatural template has this wonderful line:
"SR 5xHD"

Guess what Devastation vermins especially excel at...

Well, he's effectively impervious to any spell that allows spell resistance.

Volkov
2009-10-14, 05:31 PM
Secondary: New fight Great wyrm Shadow dragon vs Great Wyrm Topaz Dragon.

Eldariel
2009-10-14, 05:38 PM
New fight Great wyrm Shadow dragon vs Great Wyrm Topaz Dragon.

Let's give the last one a bit of time too; I just went through all the trouble to stat up the damn Beetle and would hate to see that go to waste:smallfrown:

Volkov
2009-10-14, 05:39 PM
Let's give the last one a bit of time too; I just went through all the trouble to stat up the damn Beetle and would hate to see that go to waste:smallfrown:

There now it's a secondary fight. So we can still debate the old one. :)
With an int score the beetle can strategize and think, and it has a pretty good one too. Of course the dragon would outwit it, but that genius level intelligence would help.

dspeyer
2009-10-14, 08:06 PM
That's an impressive set of templates. At will dimension door is particularly handy.

It still doesn't match a dragon's flexibility. For example, IIRC force effects span the ethereal and material planes, so the dragon can go ethereal and breath the beetle to death. Or it can cast glibness and mess with its (no longer mindless) head using untrained bluff of +56 (the beetle has sense motive +6)

Mushroom Ninja
2009-10-14, 11:14 PM
The force dragon has level 36 casting. Epic Spellcasting = win. No real contest.

tyckspoon
2009-10-14, 11:34 PM
Even without using Epic Spellcasting the Force Dragon gets Improved Spell Capacity 5 times for free. That's enough to hard-cast a Quickened 9th level spell or Persist 8th level spells, let alone what happens if the Dragon starts stacking Improved Metamagic or taking even more Improved Spell Capacity (and it will- at 75 HD it's going to run out of useful Epic feats and even useful non-epic feats pretty quickly.) The only thing holding it back from having every single possible Arcane buff Persisted (as per a fully cheesed Incantatrix) is having to use the Spell Knowledge feat to get more spells known.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-15, 12:24 AM
We have to assume that the dragon will then be going against touch AC with spells that don't allow saves. Through spells, it can gain blindsight, and use fog effects (which defeat true seeing) to deny the beetle dex. From there, it can't deflect metacheesed touch spells, any of which can easily hit 1000-3000 damage.

Volkov
2009-10-15, 06:01 PM
That's an impressive set of templates. At will dimension door is particularly handy.

It still doesn't match a dragon's flexibility. For example, IIRC force effects span the ethereal and material planes, so the dragon can go ethereal and breath the beetle to death. Or it can cast glibness and mess with its (no longer mindless) head using untrained bluff of +56 (the beetle has sense motive +6)
It'd gain +10 to all of it's skill checks. It's not much but it helps. Also, as the beetle is intelligent, it retroactively gains 128 hit dices worth of feats, which translates into...cheese.