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The Gilded Duke
2009-10-06, 09:05 PM
So I was reading through Cityscape again and I noticed the feat Roof Jumper.

Among other things you do more damage on an attack when you drop down at least twenty feat. You deal +1d6 damage per every additional 10 feet past 10 feet that you drop. You don't deal this damage if you use any ability to slow your fall.

There is no cap on the additional d6s you can do with this feat. And I did not notice any Cityscape Errata. The same feat also allows horizontal movement while falling. This counts as a charge attack. What is to stop you from dropping down on someone from a few miles up?

Just need a way to ignore all the damage you take from the fall itself.

A few builds come to mind:
Lion Totem Barbarian / Frenzied Berserker
Use Deathless Frenzy to delay the effects of the fall

Ranger / Cavalier with Tempting Fate
Dual Wield Lances, use Lion's charge to full attack, Use Unstoppable Charge to deal 5x damage with the lance. When you land use Tempting fate to not immediately die. Buy a new horse.

Monk / Psionic Fist with Tempting Fate
Dual Wielding, Flurry of Blows, additional natural weapons with psionic lion's charge. Tempting fate to not immediately die.

Tyndmyr
2009-10-06, 09:09 PM
Slows after the hit are alright, no?

So, drop fighters on fliers, who stab them for ungodly damage while freefalling, then bust out your items of feather falling after the hit, but before you hit the ground.

Combine this fighting style with Eberron style airships. The awesomeness is insane.

SurlySeraph
2009-10-06, 09:12 PM
The Battle Jump feat (Unapproachable East) lets you do charge and do double damage by falling down towards a target, but it doesn't let you "jump from more than 30 feet above your opponent."

However, you could add in a bit of RAI-mocking shenanigans by having a caster ready an action to cast, Dimension Door on you when you jump down. So you jump towards your opponent, get teleported up a few hundred feet, than drop on your opponent for double damage on your attack plus lots of d6s from Roof Jumper. If you jumped at least 10 feet to get over the edge you fell off, you could activate Leap Attack to double your damage again. This plus more standard Ubercharger tricks could let you do quite a bit of damage.

Of course, needing to jump off a ledge with at least a 10-foot horizontal difference between you and your opponent, and needing to be outdoors so you can get Dimension Door'd up, makes this a highly terrain-specific combination.

ericgrau
2009-10-06, 09:18 PM
Contingent dimension door, then a feather fall.

Alternatively, lots of quickened dimension doors then you can repeat the trick each round. A rod of quicken is really expensive but it might be worth it. Or be a psychic warrior and use dimensional slide each round. If you assume you keep your momentum from the initial fall, you're golden.

Glimbur
2009-10-06, 09:26 PM
Just make an Epic tumble check as you land to negate all the damage. It's not slowing the fall, so you should be ok.

The Gilded Duke
2009-10-06, 09:28 PM
Well I was rereading Cityscape in preperation for running a Sharn based game.
Sharn being a mile high city 527 d6 isn't that bad.

According to the feat "you cannot use any ability to slow your fall while attacking in this manner"

So perhaps the turn after it would be alright to slow fall? Also doesn't seem to object to teleportation, I believe there is a Tome of Battle teleport that only requires a swift action.

It looks like battle jumper would be difficult to work. It looks like Roof-Jumper uses "dropping distance" to determine bonus d6s. Isn't there a weapon enhancement however Valorous or something that lets you do double damage on a charge?

Lappy9000
2009-10-06, 09:39 PM
I know, it's awesome!

Made a 8th-level Minotaur Psychic Warrior who uses Speed of Thought along with Up the Walls to get a good 40ft up a wall, jumps as part of the move action, then comes down with a large-sized Great Axe for around 6d6 damage. Add in the +2 for the charge and Strength (plus Powerful Charge and Greater Powerful Charge from Eberron), and you've got a nice little hard hitter there (I call it the "Minotaur Missile") :smallbiggrin:

It's a combat application without actually having to be a mile up :smalltongue:

Rixx
2009-10-06, 10:38 PM
Polymorph yourself into an early 2D platform game hero.

Akal Saris
2009-10-07, 02:39 AM
I agree, it's a very stylish feat.

I'd combine it with a swordsage for teleportation and tiger claw jumping synergies :)

ericgrau
2009-10-07, 02:46 AM
Polymorph yourself into an early 2D platform game hero.

This has the added advantage of granting a crush attack that sends you back into the air, at which point you can immediately crush another target. If you crush 8 enemies in this manner without landing you get a free resurrection.

Reaper_Monkey
2009-10-07, 12:44 PM
For 4k you can put Landing on your armour (static cost), which negates the first 60ft of fall dam. Boots of Landing cost 500gp and reduce fall dam by two die. Assuming they stack, and you have Roofwalker (you should as its a prerequisite) you can fall 100ft without taking any damage what soever (60ft from armour, equivalent of 20ft from boots, and 20ft from feat), which is a nice 9d6 onto any damage your dealing.

The Gilded Duke
2009-10-07, 02:00 PM
Those items do help a good bit.
Hitting a Jump DC of 15 has the fall count as 10 feet less for damage.
A similar Tumble check reduces it by another 10 feet.

Also Glimber was right to point out, dc 100 tumble check you take no falling damage. How easy is it to get that at level 20?

23 Ranks, Skill Focus 3, Item of +10 Tumble, + 13 Dex 36, Luck +1

Thats +50

Use Leadership to get a Marshal (maybe one with flying) for another possible +13?

+63

Jayabalard
2009-10-07, 02:13 PM
Isn't there a maximum fall distance in a single round?

jiriku
2009-10-07, 02:14 PM
IIRC Complete adventurer or the epic book also had extensions to the jump and tumble skills that reduce effective falling damage by another 10' for every additional 15 poins of your check. So, for example, a DC 45 60 jump check and a DC 60 tumble check (doable with the right build) would reduce your falling damage by a total of 60' 80'. Combine with armor, boots, and feats to reduce falling damage by 200'. That's enough to fall from ceiling to floor in any reasonably scaled indoor setting.

Person_Man
2009-10-07, 02:15 PM
Thri-Kreen get a +30 unnamed bonus to Jump.

But really, you should be increasing your base land speed, as it's much easier to optimize. From the SRD (www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/jump.htm): "If your speed is greater than 30 feet, you gain a +4 bonus for every 10 feet beyond 30 feet."

Dixieboy
2009-10-07, 02:22 PM
Slows after the hit are alright, no?

So, drop fighters on fliers, who stab them for ungodly damage while freefalling, then bust out your items of feather falling after the hit, but before you hit the ground.

Combine this fighting style with Eberron style airships. The awesomeness is insane.

Warforged ODST.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-07, 02:34 PM
Warforged ODST.

"You got your Halos in my Eberron!"

"Are you complaining about that?"

"...Not really."

jamroar
2009-10-07, 02:43 PM
So I was reading through Cityscape again and I noticed the feat Roof Jumper.

Among other things you do more damage on an attack when you drop down at least twenty feat. You deal +1d6 damage per every additional 10 feet past 10 feet that you drop. You don't deal this damage if you use any ability to slow your fall.


Isn't falling damage (as well as any normal non-magical damage sources) capped at 20d6?

Another_Poet
2009-10-07, 03:04 PM
Edit: here is the best workaround. Become ethereal, and use a ghost touch weapon. Unless the floor has been painted with ghostwall shellac (Dungeonscape) you pass harmlessly through it after delivering your attack. /edit

Yeah, I would get some kind of boots of teleportation. Zip out after striking but before hitting the ground. You could teleport a few hundred feet up in the sky and repeat the whole tactic.

Alternately, command-word-activated boots of featherfall would be great. You could say the command word after attacking and before hitting the ground. As a GM I would allow this to at least reduce the damage deal to you, though probably not fully negate it.

You could ask your GM if they would let you custom make an item that offers damage resistance against falling damage. I would probably allow that.

Be prepared for the flip side, though. If I saw a player use this tactic I would allow it but probably rule that enemies may take an AoO as you pass through the threatened square above them (well, technically the threatened 5' cube above them). But if they are unaware of you, as they usually will be when you're sneak attacking, this doesn't matter anyway.

I would also check to see if there is indeed a 20d6 cap on falling damage. If so I would rule that your extra damage from the feat also caps at 20d6. It's not RAW but it makes sense.

ap

Cieyrin
2009-10-07, 03:04 PM
IIRC Complete adventurer or the epic book also had extensions to the jump and tumble skills that reduce effective falling damage by another 10' for every additional 15 poins of your check. So, for example, a DC 45 jump check and a DC 60 tumble check (doable with the right build) would reduce your falling damage by a total of 60'. Combine with armor, boots, and feats to reduce falling damage by 200'. That's enough to fall from ceiling to floor in any reasonably scaled indoor setting.

What's more, the Mighty Leaping feat from Savage Species makes each 15 points on a Jump negate 20' of falling damage, so the check is actually much less. Combine with Thri-Kreen for awesome.

EDIT: Also, Falling damage is capped at 20d6, as according to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#falling). You'll still make an awesome dragoon, just not an infinite one.

Demons_eye
2009-10-07, 03:22 PM
Does the feat say its capped at 20d6? I would think you can fall any distance to gain damage but you can only take 20d6 from falling.

Dixieboy
2009-10-07, 03:26 PM
What's more, the Mighty Leaping feat from Savage Species makes each 15 points on a Jump negate 20' of falling damage, so the check is actually much less. Combine with Thri-Kreen for awesome.

EDIT: Also, Falling damage is capped at 20d6, as according to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#falling). You'll still make an awesome dragoon, just not an infinite one.

There's a cap on falling damage, not on this ability.

Cieyrin
2009-10-07, 03:40 PM
Does the feat say its capped at 20d6? I would think you can fall any distance to gain damage but you can only take 20d6 from falling.

The feat isn't capped but by RAMS it would seem that you're passing along the falling damage to your target instead of doing damage as an object of your size, as per the Falling Objects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#fallingObjects) rules, which is incidentally also capped at 20d6.

Also at the OP, using Roof Jumper's Death from Above precludes the usage of Urban Acrobatics, as the feat specifically states you can only use one maneuver at a time. Personally, I think it's a rather dumb clause, since it expands your range of targets and so I'd probably allow ignoring that particular note but that's up to your DM, not me.

Finally, I just noticed that Roof Walker has Graceful Drops, which does the same as Mighty Leaping does, so you can negate 20' of fall per 15 points on your Jump check. The only thing you miss out on is a +10 competence bonus but that's easily gained by a Ring of Jumping, so no big loss.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

The Gilded Duke
2009-10-07, 03:58 PM
Feat doesn't mention any cap. Where is the cap on falling damage mentioned? Also, how many feet per turn does someone fall in normal gravity?
Because 20d6 isn't that hard to deal with.

jiriku
2009-10-07, 04:03 PM
In D&d you fall 150' per round. Anything longer leaves you still in midair, and you continue falling on your next round.

Darrin
2009-10-07, 04:26 PM
Also, Falling damage is capped at 20d6, as according to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#falling). You'll still make an awesome dragoon, just not an infinite one.

That's not clear. Falling damage due to height is capped at 20d6. Falling damage due to weight may not be... each 200 lbs adds another 1d6 damage.

You may want to check out Sinfire Titan's "4500 lbs of Stupid (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19863510/4500_lbs_of_Stupid)" thread for some ideas on what you can do with falling damage, since by RAW there is no Ref save to avoid objects falling on you.

herrhauptmann
2009-10-07, 06:11 PM
For 4k you can put Landing on your armour (static cost), which negates the first 60ft of fall dam. Boots of Landing cost 500gp and reduce fall dam by two die. Assuming they stack, and you have Roofwalker (you should as its a prerequisite) you can fall 100ft without taking any damage what soever (60ft from armour, equivalent of 20ft from boots, and 20ft from feat), which is a nice 9d6 onto any damage your dealing.

Antiimpact armor from MIC, reduces whole body bludgeoning damage by half. That's falling, constriction, getting eaten, and other stuff. (CR 12 trap in DMG, no save, walls of the hallway slam shut on you, 12d6 damage).

Max falling damage to the faller (as stated already) caps at 200ft, so while I"m not sure about only falling 150 in a round, it seems like you should be able to fall 200 feet in a round.
And please, no one pull out a physics equation to prove "You can't fall 200 feet in 6 seconds unless your speed at start of fall is greater than 0ft/sec. "

SartheKobold
2009-10-07, 07:27 PM
Antiimpact armor from MIC, reduces whole body bludgeoning damage by half. That's falling, constriction, getting eaten, and other stuff. (CR 12 trap in DMG, no save, walls of the hallway slam shut on you, 12d6 damage).

Max falling damage to the faller (as stated already) caps at 200ft, so while I"m not sure about only falling 150 in a round, it seems like you should be able to fall 200 feet in a round.
And please, no one pull out a physics equation to prove "You can't fall 200 feet in 6 seconds unless your speed at start of fall is greater than 0ft/sec. "

I seem to recall Sage Advice from Dragon Magazine doing just that, and coming up with roughly 300ft/Round as a good set distance to fall...

herrhauptmann
2009-10-07, 08:23 PM
I think I've seen that one actually. I just don't want to see any more catgirls killed. :smallfrown:

Zaq
2009-10-07, 09:20 PM
Earthen Grace (Druid 2 or Sor/Wiz 3, Spell Compendium) + immunity to nonlethal (Warforged Juggernaut, Necropolitan, or something else) = no damage at all from falling onto earth or stone. Just teleport up as high as your GM will let you, smite thine foe, and splat harmlessly in a perfectly full-HP heap.

Cieyrin
2009-10-07, 09:48 PM
That's not clear. Falling damage due to height is capped at 20d6. Falling damage due to weight may not be... each 200 lbs adds another 1d6 damage.

I don't know, it looks to me that the max damage cap is inclusive of weight and distance fallen but that's just my impression.


Max falling damage to the faller (as stated already) caps at 200ft, so while I"m not sure about only falling 150 in a round, it seems like you should be able to fall 200 feet in a round.
And please, no one pull out a physics equation to prove "You can't fall 200 feet in 6 seconds unless your speed at start of fall is greater than 0ft/sec. "

D&D FAQ says you fall about 500 feet in the first round, and another 1200 feet every round after or there abouts, as you hit terminal velocity in the second round.

ShadowFighter15
2009-10-07, 10:29 PM
Augment this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Catfall) psionic power enough and you should be safe for the landing (especially when combined with the stuff mentioned on the previous page).

EDIT: Hell; combine Catfall with the armour and boots mentioned on the previous page and you'll be giving Alex Mercer a run for his money in the 'earth-shattering-landing' department.

ericgrau
2009-10-08, 12:11 AM
Isn't there a maximum fall distance in a single round?

150 feet the first round and 300 feet every round thereafter. 600 and 1200 feet might be closer to reality, but the rules say 150 and 300. Low G world I guess.

Reaper_Monkey
2009-10-08, 04:37 AM
D&D FAQ says you fall about 500 feet in the first round, and another 1200 feet every round after or there abouts, as you hit terminal velocity in the second round.


150 feet the first round and 300 feet every round thereafter. 600 and 1200 feet might be closer to reality, but the rules say 150 and 300. Low G world I guess.

Okay, so we're a bit conflicted on falling speeds. I'm also thinking, if you jump to obtain the height in the first place, and the distance you can travel via jump in a round is still limited to your speed. It is at all feasible you can jump up to an appropriate height, then fall down, and then still have a standard action left to hit the person all within one turn? If not, then it's likely they'd see you and move, or just naturally move anyway at which points its hardly useful.

EDIT: Just checked the official Wizards F&Q and they basically kill cat-girls and use physics, equating to the 500-600 in the first round and 1200 in the second and every round there after. Which should be more than fast enough to always hit the target your aiming for within one round assuming your just falling. Jumping on the other hand still limits your movement within a round and states that if your still moving then you take another move action (even if you have to hang in mid air between rounds). Thus teleportation or simply already being higher than your target is a better bet than jumping up just to fall back down.

The Gilded Duke
2009-10-08, 11:24 AM
Right now a Warforged with Earthen Grace looks like the best method to completely avoid falling damage. If you make them a wizard then they also have access to Scrying and Greater Teleport. It does make the feat harder to qualify for, but not impossible. Can use True Strike to make sure the hit connects, just using greater height instead of additional attacks to increase damage.

Now, if the Warforged with Earthen Grace were hitting the target with their slam attack, would there also be a way to count this Warforged as a falling object to get additional damage on the target?

Cieyrin
2009-10-08, 12:05 PM
Right now a Warforged with Earthen Grace looks like the best method to completely avoid falling damage. If you make them a wizard then they also have access to Scrying and Greater Teleport. It does make the feat harder to qualify for, but not impossible. Can use True Strike to make sure the hit connects, just using greater height instead of additional attacks to increase damage.

Now, if the Warforged with Earthen Grace were hitting the target with their slam attack, would there also be a way to count this Warforged as a falling object to get additional damage on the target?

If you check the Cityscape Web Enhancement, Barbarians have an ACF to replace their Fast Movement with getting Roofwalker as a bonus feat and then qualifying for Roof-jumper at 6th level w/o having to meet the requirements, though you still have to spend the feat slot for it. It'll at least save you from the trouble of having to deal with Dodge and Mobility. To do it all as a Druid, use the Avenger Druid variant from UA and use the granted Fast Movement to get the ACF instead and you'll have it all by 6th.

Now, Warforged Druids are kinda weird, though you could always just go with the Ironwood Body feat and glory in the fact that you're now a Treeforged.


150 feet the first round and 300 feet every round thereafter. 600 and 1200 feet might be closer to reality, but the rules say 150 and 300. Low G world I guess.

Where do the rules say this? I was looking for it and couldn't find it, which is why I went to the FAQ for it.

ericgrau
2009-10-08, 12:07 PM
Okay, so we're a bit conflicted on falling speeds. I'm also thinking, if you jump to obtain the height in the first place, and the distance you can travel via jump in a round is still limited to your speed. It is at all feasible you can jump up to an appropriate height, then fall down, and then still have a standard action left to hit the person all within one turn? If not, then it's likely they'd see you and move, or just naturally move anyway at which points its hardly useful.

EDIT: Just checked the official Wizards F&Q and they basically kill cat-girls and use physics, equating to the 500-600 in the first round and 1200 in the second and every round there after. Which should be more than fast enough to always hit the target your aiming for within one round assuming your just falling. Jumping on the other hand still limits your movement within a round and states that if your still moving then you take another move action (even if you have to hang in mid air between rounds). Thus teleportation or simply already being higher than your target is a better bet than jumping up just to fall back down.

I based my numbers on the flying rules and the planar rules (subjective gravity). Maybe you could argue that winged creatures fall slower, but there's nothing about planes with subjective gravity also having low gravity. But do I care if people use more realistic numbers? No, not at all.

Cieyrin
2009-10-08, 01:16 PM
I based my numbers on the flying rules and the planar rules (subjective gravity). Maybe you could argue that winged creatures fall slower, but there's nothing about planes with subjective gravity also having low gravity. But do I care if people use more realistic numbers? No, not at all.

Upon reading those sections, I would agree these are the speeds that D&D uses for falling. Subjective gravity says its the gravity is as strong as on the Material Plane, so it's normal gravity, just with the ability to choose which way it pulls you.

This just looks to me as more signs that the designers weren't exactly the most studious in school and pulled out numbers that sounded good to them at the time, disregarding looking things up when they were determining reasonable numbers and rates. On the other hand, normal D&D worlds being low gravity would explain why we have massive creatures running about and not being crushed under their own weight, as well as how many things are able to move and even fly as quickly as they do.

Fendalus
2009-10-08, 02:38 PM
Thank you people, now I can't resist trying to figure out the acceleration due to gravity on subjective gravity planes. Oh, and watch out for the dead catgirls.

Using the equation d = (v0)t + ( (a (t^2) ) / 2)
with:
a = acceleration due to gravity (meters per second^2)
t = time elapsed (seconds)
d = distance (meters)
v0 = velocity initial (meters per second)

150 feet traveled = 45.72 meters traveled
rewrite equation for finding acceleration:
a = (2 (s-(v0) t) ) / (t^2)
a = (2 (45.72 - (0) * 6) ) / (6^2)
a = (91.44) / (36)
a = 2.54 meters per second^2 or 8.33 feet per second^2

Earth's gravity is 9.81 meters per second^2 or 32.74 feet per second^2.

This means that such planes have about 1/4th of earth's gravity. on clue about the prime material. And I'm sure this is a thread derail by this point...

Cieyrin
2009-10-08, 02:48 PM
Thank you people, now I can't resist trying to figure out the acceleration due to gravity on subjective gravity planes. Oh, and watch out for the dead catgirls.

Using the equation d = (v0)t + ( (a (t^2) ) / 2)
with:
a = acceleration due to gravity (meters per second^2)
t = time elapsed (seconds)
d = distance (meters)
v0 = velocity initial (meters per second)

150 feet traveled = 45.72 meters traveled
rewrite equation for finding acceleration:
a = (2 (s-(v0) t) ) / (t^2)
a = (2 (45.72 - (0) * 6) ) / (6^2)
a = (91.44) / (36)
a = 2.54 meters per second^2 or 8.33 feet per second^2

Earth's gravity is 9.81 meters per second^2 or 32.74 feet per second^2.

This means that such planes have about 1/4th of earth's gravity. on clue about the prime material. And I'm sure this is a thread derail by this point...

The corpses, they're everywhere. ;_;

...and yeah, I kinda figured it was a 1/4 earth gravity, given the normal distance traveled of 600 feet as opposed to the listed of 150 feet in 6 seconds...

Fendalus
2009-10-08, 02:51 PM
Sorry, I couldn't resist getting the exact number... Still not as bad as the anti-matter bomb calculations.

The Gilded Duke
2009-10-08, 03:07 PM
I think it says something about 3.5 that they have rules for flying, but not for falling. The druid version looks more efficient overall, although I don't think it has a built in teleport. Can still fly up above the target through one method or another.

So to move the thread on a bit.
How many hit points do airships, warships, castles, buildings, planets have?
And how high would you have to fall from to destroy them in a single attack?

Cieyrin
2009-10-08, 03:25 PM
I think it says something about 3.5 that they have rules for flying, but not for falling. The druid version looks more efficient overall, although I don't think it has a built in teleport. Can still fly up above the target through one method or another.

So to move the thread on a bit.
How many hit points do airships, warships, castles, buildings, planets have?
And how high would you have to fall from to destroy them in a single attack?

Airships and warships, as huge vehicles, have section hit points of between 50 and 100 hit points, as according to the Arms and Equipment Guide. So, if going by average damage just from Roof Jumper and ignoring max damage cap for falling objects, you'd need to drop from 300 feet up for 30d6.

I'd provide for building hit points but I don't have my Stronghold Builder's Guide available.

Demons_eye
2009-10-08, 03:26 PM
*Scrub* Never mind I did not know they stated out warships.

quiet1mi
2009-10-08, 05:21 PM
wow... just a few questions...

How much does a warforged weigh with adamantine plating?

Can you combine dungeon crasher with roof-jumper for a bullrush into the ground?

The way I am thinking of getting a Adamantine Warforged juggernaut up 20' into the air is benign transposition... a single level in wizard (and a 11-12 Intelligence) could net you that for wands (Not to mention the Repair light *wounds)