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Hashmir
2009-10-07, 02:54 AM
Ok, so I'm in a gestalt campaign that's about to start, and I'm interested in looking ahead (because I'm impatient and up too late). The trick, however, is finding prestige classes that do what I want.

You see, my character is a Sorcerer//Cloistered Cleric. His combat potential is unimportant; what matters is his interest in magic and his thirst for knowledge (but not in a sacrifice-your-soul-for-power way). Accordingly, he has the domains of Magic, Rune, and Knowledge, a focus on Divination, and a great many skill points going toward Knowledge, Spellcraft, and so on.

Now, some of you may have noticed that Sorcerer and Cleric have one big thing in common: Aside from spell accessibility and spells per day, there is no real benefit to taking levels in either of these classes (unless you're running an undead campaign). Thus, I would rather like to switch out of one or both as soon as possible, while continuing to gain levels in their respective magic pools.

So, given these restrictions (I must gain a spontaneous arcane spellcasting level and a divine spellcasting level with every character level, and the class must be consistent with the character), a couple of classes jump out. One is the Mystic Theurge (which is allowed in this campaign), and the other is the Divine Oracle (from Complete Divine).

So my primary question is: What would I take alongside each of these classes, if I so chose? I could start Mystic Theurge at 5th level, but is there any hope of finding a thematically consistent class to pair with it? Any strange new casting class would either be redundant or complicating (I already get to track too many types of spells as it is), and any combat class wouldn't make any sense.

Alternately, Divine Oracle would be a fairly natural extension of the Cloistered Cleric (even if only the first three levels are worth anything), but I don't know what would extend the Sorcerer line, if anything.

So what do you guys think? Is there some knowledge-seeking class out there for a poor bookworm?

Zaydos
2009-10-07, 02:58 AM
Loreseeker is a knowledge seeking class that progresses arcane casting, but the metamagic/item creation feat requirements (3 between them) are rather tough for a sorcerer and might be too much of a resource sink. They do gain the lore ability like cloistered cleric, but I'm not sure if the levels would stack for that power.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-07, 03:15 AM
Loremaster or Contemplative seem to fit the theme you seek.

Of these, I'd lean towards Contemplative. Extra domains are a good option, and could use them for specialist areas you wanted to focus on with your knowledge hunt.

Hashmir
2009-10-07, 03:39 AM
You know, that's a good idea. Assuming I can explain away or alter some of the fluff around the Contemplative, it would at least be a good use of a few levels. Of course, it would also have to start at level 11, but still...

Looking at other classes, Divine Oracle could start at level 6, which would be pretty nice. I can totally see one side of the character going Cleric 5/Divine Oracle 5/Contemplative X -- it would even make sense as a character progression, and end up with 5 domains (yay Spontaneous Domains). Beautiful!

But then the question is whether his other half is doomed to toil in sorcery all alone. It seems to me that it's rather difficult to find an arcane prestige class that A) fits with Sorcerer, and B) doesn't involve going full-blown sacrificing-orphans-for-arcane-might. And frankly, my familiar's improved INT just isn't enough to persuade me to stay. Thoughts?

paddyfool
2009-10-07, 04:02 AM
I'm not really an expert on the options for your Sorceror, but Arcane Devotee would seem to work, and at higher levels, Archmage is always worth considering. On the whole, though, Loremaster fits best; pity about the entry reqs.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-07, 04:13 AM
To be honest, with the Cleric's magic domain, you're fine just having sorceror 20. Personally, I'd go psion, but that's just me.

The point of gestalt is to give you more options. This does that beautifully. That one side of the build has PrC's, and the other does not? Not so important. The theme of the character is sound and preserved.

If you really feel the need to PrC sorceror, throw on a few levels of Archmage. Let it represent the pinnacle of arcane knowledge.

But Sorceror 20 is a beefy build, even without PrC's. Wizard would likely fit your theme better, but that's a choice you have to make.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-10-07, 04:13 AM
Dweomerkeeper (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a).

Cyclocone
2009-10-07, 04:48 AM
What race are you BTW?
If you're an elf, you could go Olin Gisir (LEoF). It's likle Loremaster, except better. (It also happens to have almost the same requirements as Incantatrix.)


And since Dweomerkeeper is being mentioned, Tainted Scholar also has some things in common with Loremaster

...although you might have to sacrifice some orphans to Tharizdun on the way

...infact, you'll probably have to orphan them yourself too.

HCL
2009-10-07, 06:00 AM
why magic domain? You can already use magic items from your sorcerer side, so get something else, like Slime or Time.

dspeyer
2009-10-07, 08:15 AM
The usual rules of gestalt say only one side PrC and no dual-progression.

That said, if your DM has specifically allowed Mystic Theurge, take it. It's a huge power-boost. Put a skill-based class across from it, probably factotum or scout.

If you have to choose between PrCing out of sorcerer or cleric, I'd advise going out of sorcerer. Cleric is giving you your skills, including those important knowledges.

You can use Divine Oracle to extend sorcerer, but it's less useful because it doesn't increase your spells known, only your class spell list. Loremaster is flavorful, but mostly doesn't stack with cloistered cleric. Unseen Seer might be handy, but the prerequisites will be hard to meet. Mage of the Arcane Order is always good for sorcerers, and you could probably reflavor it to be make sense (e.g. instead of touching a mortal spellpool, you're borrowing a bit of divine omniscience).

Hashmir
2009-10-07, 03:52 PM
Wow, thanks for the great tips, everyone.

After looking through all the recommendations, I think I've settled on Cloistered Cleric 5/Divine Oracle 5/Contemplative X//Sorcerer 7/Loremaster Y. It's quite consistent with my character's personality; it doesn't smell like min-maxing; and it keeps the two magic paths clear and fairly simple. Thanks for all the help!

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-07, 04:59 PM
Archivist / wizard would have a much more intellectual feel to it, while also having the advantage of being based mainly off of intelligence, which assists the knowledge feel, and, in general, fits the concept better.

Gnorman
2009-10-07, 05:05 PM
Archivist / wizard would have a much more intellectual feel to it, while also having the advantage of being based mainly off of intelligence, which assists the knowledge feel, and, in general, fits the concept better.

Cloistered cleric and archivist are basically the same thing. Dark Knowledge and expanded spell access vs. domains. But flavor-wise? Almost identical.

I guess the cloistered cleric is a little more Dr. Henry Jones and the archivist is a bit more Indiana.

Hashmir
2009-10-07, 05:46 PM
Well, I agree that I would likely have gone with Wizard//Cloistered Cleric if I had established the character first, what with the studious feel and all. However, in this case the character followed the classes, in a sense.

You see, my original idea was to play a Sorcerer//Cleric, to take advantage of the diametrically opposed casting styles for flexibility and utility (and the campaign required high Charisma anyway). So my next question was, "Why on earth would someone be a Sorcerer//Cleric?" The answer I came up with was a young man filled with curiosity about the way things worked who lived in a small village. A self-taught physicist who discovered latent magic powers, but knew nothing of the magics themselves.

Thus, when offered by a traveling NPC (the campaign's plot hook) the chance to study at the Library of Knowledge, he would gladly accept. So the end result is a character who has spent the last few years studying arcane and divine magic theory -- which fits nicely with a learned Sorcerer and a Cloistered Cleric who does not worship an actual deity.

This is also why he has the domains of Magic, Rune, and Knowledge. He is certainly not optimized for combat, but rather for adventuring, and he feels very thematically consistent to me. Then, if you replace deity worship with the pursuit of Knowledge itself, Cloistered Cleric -> Divine Oracle -> Contemplative is a very natural progression for a bookish diviner. Sorcerer -> Loremaster seems similarly appropriate, and the fact that my divine and arcane spell progressions are exactly the same as Cleric//Sorcerer makes me happy and doesn't annoy the GM (if we even get that far).

ErrantX
2009-10-07, 05:49 PM
Way to go for picking flavor over power, I think that it needs to be said.

Kudos.

-X

Hashmir
2009-10-07, 06:15 PM
Frankly, when you're starting a gestalt campaign with 8 x 5d6b3 (best 6 stats), I feel like trying to game the system for Uber Optimization is just greedy, unless you plan to fight a Demon Lord at level 5. And as my first PbP game, I was excited at the chance to make a character that was entirely non-combat-oriented and yet useful. How often do you get to do that? :smallwink:

Dracomorph
2009-10-07, 06:58 PM
I see you've already got your build, but I thought I'd mention the Mage of the Arcane Order. Full casting and Spellpool make your magic options really crazy.

Hashmir
2009-10-07, 07:23 PM
I did consider that, but in the end I decided that MotAO wasn't worth trying to alter so it fits our setting. I don't have a spellbook, I'm using my "Turn Undeads" to power spontaneous metamagics, and I already speak 8 languages (INT 17, Cloistered Cleric skill points) -- the only real benefit would be the spellpool. I think it might be tempting if I were a Wizard, and could benefit from the greatly increased flexibility and additional spells, but as it is, I have to weigh the spellpool against the effort required to shoehorn it into our campaign.

Incidentally, I did briefly consider going Cleric X/Mystic Theurge//Sorcerer/Wizard. Use Theurge to cover both my Cleric and Sorcerer progressions, and grab Wizard on the other side for more casting madness. Now that I think about it, I suppose it would be more fun to pick a third, unrelated type of magic -- like Truename or something. In any case, I'm not actually going to, but it would be fairly amusing.

Dracomorph
2009-10-07, 07:42 PM
I meant enter MotAO as a sorcerer; it just takes the Arcane Preparation feat plus the normal requirements, and you could still enter at 5th level, but only if you've got a racial bonus feat to spend on metamagic. You do lose out on the New Spell class feature, but it's kind of low-rent anyway.

I wouldn't have expected flavor to be a problem; the guild it describes is pretty generic, but eh. You would know better than me.

Hashmir
2009-10-07, 08:34 PM
I think you're quite right in your assessment of the class' applicability; it just so happens that it doesn't mesh well with the details of my character's life and the campaign in general. Of course, this is information you wouldn't know. :smallbiggrin: