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Kosjsjach
2009-10-08, 02:18 AM
Hey all. I'd like some help.

I wanted to build a good low-to-mid-level sneak-attack rogue, but avoid the TWF tree. I thought of using Quick Draw + Point Blank Shot + Rapid Shot and making a dagger slinger... until I realized that any kind of DR will reduce any damage output pretty hard. I don't want to be throwing 2'002gp daggers, but that's what it'd take to make a dent in something with even DR 5/magic.

Is there a way to make weapons thrown briefly magical? Ideally an item, or a low-level cleric spell.

Thanks!

Rixx
2009-10-08, 02:37 AM
Maybe you could splurge on a couple of returning daggers?

Shpadoinkle
2009-10-08, 02:56 AM
I think DR only applies once to the total amount of damage you do. DR 5/Magic when you're doing 1d4+3d6+Str damage (avg 13 + str, 8 + str after DR) isn't a huge obstacle.


Maybe you could splurge on a couple of returning daggers?

That's a good suggestion too.

Kosjsjach
2009-10-08, 03:47 AM
Maybe you could splurge on a couple of returning daggers?

I thought of it, but I wanted to make liberal use of Travel Devotion, so there's a good chance I wouldn't be in the right square at the beginning of my next turn.

@Shpadoinkle: you have a good point, it's not that much of a difference... but I'd still like there to be a work-around, especially since DR will just increase.

Though I suppose the reason one doesn't see many throwing builds is (at least in part) precisely for this reason.

JellyPooga
2009-10-08, 04:04 AM
I think DR only applies once to the total amount of damage you do. DR 5/Magic when you're doing 1d4+3d6+Str damage (avg 13 + str, 8 + str after DR) isn't a huge obstacle.

The problem is that DR applies to every dagger...when you're at low level at only chucking 1 dagger, that's fine. When your level starts going up, if you're relying on low damage but large number of attacks, DR becomes a lot better. e.g. If you throw 5 daggers, each of which does 1d4+2 (total 5d4+10 = average of 22), DR:5 applies to all of them, lowering your damage to 5x(1d4-3), meaning that DR has stopped 25 points of your damage, or practically speaking; all of it. Someone coming with a greatsword at hitting someone once for 2d6+15 (average 22) only loses out on 5 points of damage so still gets to actually do damage.

When you add Sneak Attack, sure, your damage potential goes up, but Sneak Attack is hard to get at range...you have to rely on catching your opponent flat-footed (can't ranged flank without, AFAIK, one particular PrC), which can be tricky whilst getting a full-attack as well.

As far as temporarily magical daggers go, (Greater) Magic Weapon is one way to go obviously. The only problem is that it only affects one weapon per casting. One work-around is instead of throwing daggers, throw Shuriken. The damage dice is insignificantly smaller (1d2 instead of 1d4...woo, 1 less point of damage on average), you don't need Quick Draw to get a full attack with them and you can cast (Greater) Magic Weapon on 50 of them at the same time...admittedly they get destroyed after one hit, but hey, they're cheap! As an additional bonus, it's very cheap to get magical ones (though you still have to deal with the expendability factor). Only a couple of thousand will get you about 20 +2 equivalent (I reccomend various Bane) shuriken.

Fishy
2009-10-08, 04:07 AM
At low levels, I think it pretty much has to be Shuriken. You can buy a stack of 50 magical Shuriken for the same price as one magical dagger since they count as ammunition, and one casting of Magic Weapon covers the whole stack. Plus, they can be drawn as a free action like arrows, so you can swap Quick Draw for EWP: Shuriken and lose virtually nothing.

Just pretend you're throwing Kunai or something.


EDIT: How ironic, Ninja'd by shuriken.

taltamir
2009-10-08, 04:07 AM
ask your DM to provide you with a returning dagger ARTIFACT that does decent damage at higher levels.. (ask him before starting the character)

understand that by the raw the vast majority of weapons are utterly useless, only a select few weapons are good. that means if you want a creative build, something has to give.

maybe get the artifact early and have it scale with your power.

oxinabox
2009-10-08, 04:49 AM
I think surikens are the way to go.
Get your DM to give you permission to refluff them as "throwing dagger"
Flavor text: "while any dagger can be thrown, there dagger have been specially crafted for throwing, their shape makes it easy to draw and throw in one smoth action, although has the unfortunate effect of making them hard to use in melee combat."

Enteraininly real surikens were used in melee combat (IIRC), as well as thrown.

then you can make use of palm thrower, (i think this names wrong). but the feat i'm thinkign of basically lets you throw many more surikens, and stacks with rapid shot.
somethign liek for every 2 surikens you would normally throw, you can throw 3

taltamir
2009-10-08, 05:02 AM
but how will this help with DR?
He can throw a million shurikens a round and still do 0 damage due to DR.

How about a new feat:
precision throw (dagger):
take careful aim and focus all your strength and focus into a single accurate throw
prereq: BAB5
description: As a full round action you throw one dagger, you deal triple damage.

there you have it, a way to bypass DR on the occasional monster.

axraelshelm
2009-10-08, 05:03 AM
why not have a pair of guantlets that enchants a dagger every time you throw a dagger? make it limited to just daggers that would reduce the cost.

JellyPooga
2009-10-08, 05:29 AM
but how will this help with DR?
He can throw a million shurikens a round and still do 0 damage due to DR.

It helps with DR because they're easily enchantable with Magic Weapon (you get up to 50 magic attacks in one combat instead of just one for the same amount of spell investment). You can also get special materials "cheaper" too by the same logic...50 Adamantine shuriken costs the same as one Adamantine Dagger...so that's 49 extra Adamantine attacks in the same combat without having to go retrieve your weapon.

Sliver
2009-10-08, 05:35 AM
but how will this help with DR?
He can throw a million shurikens a round and still do 0 damage due to DR.

If you are greatly invisible, you don't care if your 1d2 is reduced to 0..

Curmudgeon
2009-10-08, 09:06 AM
Shurikens really aren't worth the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat. Even with that feat to remove the -4 nonproficiency penalty you'll constantly miss due to the ever-present range increment penalties, since they're -2 to hit at 10', -4 at 20', ... (Well, OK, there's no penalty at 5', but then you've got the AoO for making a ranged attack to worry about.)

Because of the range penalties I really don't like this approach at all. However, if you're going to try something along this line I'd suggest darts instead. They do the same damage as daggers but have a 20' range increment.

Glyde
2009-10-08, 09:15 AM
Daggers can be used in melee or at range interchangeably correct? I think that might be part of the appeal (Not sure if darts can be used in melee.)

It really depends on the kind of DR we're looking at... If its damage type, then you might need to invest in a sling or that one cross-bow-like weapon that shoots sling bullets (Can't remember the name right now.)

Maybe haggle with your DM to let the Returning property return to you unerringly. Later on get different enchantments on them (I think there's one in the MIC that gives the weapon the property of another metal.), but make them all different (or the same, nothing stopping you there.)

You'd of course be relying on sneak attack dice for damage, so until you get a way to stay invisible, you'll either need to reason with your DM to let you 'flank' with throwing weapons, or get in there and stab some folk.

Smythen
2009-10-08, 09:34 AM
the prestige class, "Whisper knife" (have to be small, pref hafling), from Races of the Wild. lets you catch returning weapons from a different location, but pretty late in the build though (cant remember how late).

Or else you could just hide, and backstab, run - hide - backstab - etc.
or even better get Hide in plane sight.

jiriku
2009-10-08, 10:01 AM
For any throwing build, you'd do well to play a halfling and take the 1st level halfling rogue racial substitution level. Halflings get a +2 (size and racial) bonus to throwing relative to any Medium-size race, and the RSL will give you a bonus die of sneak attack when throwing. Also, as pointed out, being a halfling gets your foot in the door to a couple of prestige classes that are worth your consideration.

Edit: Featwise, far shot is very helpful for many throwing builds, as you can sneak attack as far away as 30 ft, but most throwing weapons have a range increment of 10 or 20 ft.

JellyPooga
2009-10-08, 10:24 AM
the prestige class, "Whisper knife" (have to be small, pref hafling), from Races of the Wild. lets you catch returning weapons from a different location, but pretty late in the build though (cant remember how late).

It's a shockingly late entry for what you get out of it really...IIRC you need to be level 7 before entry (it requires 10 ranks in some skill). The enhanced Returning ability isn't all that good either. At something like 9th level of the PrC (which is your 16th character level), you can either use one returning knife for 3 attacks in the same round or 2 for 2 each...frankly you're better off having a massive bandolier of daggers and having the Quickdraw feat. You'll certainly get off a lot more attacks (using Rapid Shot, TWF and the Master Thrower PrC, you can get a lot of thrown knife attacks).

Boci
2009-10-08, 10:38 AM
It's a shockingly late entry for what you get out of it really...IIRC you need to be level 7 before entry (it requires 10 ranks in some skill). The enhanced Returning ability isn't all that good either. At something like 9th level of the PrC (which is your 16th character level), you can either use one returning knife for 3 attacks in the same round or 2 for 2 each...frankly you're better off having a massive bandolier of daggers and having the Quickdraw feat. You'll certainly get off a lot more attacks (using Rapid Shot, TWF and the Master Thrower PrC, you can get a lot of thrown knife attacks).

True, but at 16th level it also allows you to flank with a 10ft reach. With a dagger.

JellyPooga
2009-10-08, 11:24 AM
True, but at 16th level it also allows you to flank with a 10ft reach. With a dagger.

Not really that impressive though...a 1st level Commoner can flank at 10ft using a longspear. If the ability allowed to to, you know, actually flank at a decent range (say...30ft. It's the range for precision damage after all), then I'd be impressed, but 10ft? hardly worth the effort really.

ericgrau
2009-10-08, 11:43 AM
Hey all. I'd like some help.

I wanted to build a good low-to-mid-level sneak-attack rogue, but avoid the TWF tree. I thought of using Quick Draw + Point Blank Shot + Rapid Shot and making a dagger slinger... until I realized that any kind of DR will reduce any damage output pretty hard. I don't want to be throwing 2'002gp daggers, but that's what it'd take to make a dent in something with even DR 5/magic.

Is there a way to make weapons thrown briefly magical? Ideally an item, or a low-level cleric spell.

Thanks!

Sneak attack damage will make DR fairly minor. Play a halfling for a total of +3 to hit (dex + size + racial). That's better than having full BAB at low-to-mid levels. Get far shot to reduce the range penalty to hit and precise shot if in a party. You might even want to consider spears, javelins, or darts. That's a lot of feats so you may want a level or two of fighter. TWF for throwing is also an option instead of or in addition to rapid shot. From there just get 1 sneak attack in the surprise round, plus a full attack of SA's from winning initiative. After that get a greater invis from an ally, or move in for a flank. A ranged + melee mix best utilizes the dagger's dual role, but requires another feat: weapon finesse. Otherwise you're better off with javelins or darts.

Telonius
2009-10-08, 11:54 AM
Shurikens really aren't worth the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat. Even with that feat to remove the -4 nonproficiency penalty you'll constantly miss due to the ever-present range increment penalties, since they're -2 to hit at 10', -4 at 20', ... (Well, OK, there's no penalty at 5', but then you've got the AoO for making a ranged attack to worry about.)

Because of the range penalties I really don't like this approach at all. However, if you're going to try something along this line I'd suggest darts instead. They do the same damage as daggers but have a 20' range increment.

If you're playing a Rogue, you'll want to take at least one non-Rogue class. My suggestion: Rogue1/Sleeping Tiger Monk1 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sleepingTiger). It'll give you proficiency in Shuriken, Weapon Finesse (which you'll probably want as a Rogue) and better saves. You could also take a level of Fighter or Swashbuckler to nab a prerequisite.

For race, pick Halfling. You have +1 size bonus and +1 racial bonus (thrown weapons) to attack.

Point Blank Shot to Far Shot to double the range of thrown...

Rogue1 - Point Blank Shot
Rogue1/Monk1 - Weapon Finesse
Rogue2/Monk1 - Precise Shot
Rogue3/Monk1
Rogue4/Monk1
Rogue5/Monk1 - Weapon Focus (dagger)
Rogue6/Monk1*
Rogue7/Monk1
Rogue7/Monk1/Master Thrower1 - Quick Draw, Defensive Throw, Two-Weapon Fighting
Rogue7/Monk1/Master Thrower1/Whisperknife1


*You can take the level of Master Thrower after this level if you use fractional BAB or if you use one of the other classes instead of Monk.

Strongheart Halfling would get you an extra feat as well.

ericgrau
2009-10-08, 12:01 PM
Actually shurikens remove the need for quick draw, so there's no extra feat cost overall. And you can enchant them as ammo, which could be a good or bad thing. Otherwise I dunno if they offer an advantage or disadvantage, but my point is the cost is the same.

Rixx
2009-10-08, 12:20 PM
Quick Draw is useful in other situations, though, while EWP: Shuriken is really only useful for throwing shurikens.

Person_Man
2009-10-08, 12:50 PM
Here is a good mini-guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6893722&postcount=35) on being a Rogue.

As others have opined, the real problem for a ranged Rogue build is qualifying for Sneak Attack. You basically need one of the following:

Wand of Greater Invisibility
Ring of Blinking + Pierce Magical Concealment
a reliable way (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68540) of Blinding your enemy
A partner (or pet animals) to Grapple your enemies
A spellcasting partner who makes sure to buff you or Blinds/Stuns/etc enemies or summon things to Grapple.


The last option is your best, because it has the most variety. If you use the same magical combo over and over again (like Greater Invisibility), your DM will start mixing in a lot of enemies who can work around it.

Once you have that down, then you need a method of hurting Precision immune enemies. That means Dragonfire Strike (from Dragon Magic) to convert it to energy damage, or a bunch of wands (Gravestrike, Vinestrike, Golemstrike, all Spell Compendium).

For your build itself, I suggest strait Rogue. For feats, consider the TWF tree, Quickdraw, Dragonfire Strike, Craven (Champions of Ruin), and Maiming Strike (Exemplars of Evil), and Savvy Rogue. I wouldn't bother with Rapid Shot, as it requires the sucky Point Blank Shot and can't be used when you're stuck in melee.

tyckspoon
2009-10-08, 01:25 PM
If you're playing a Rogue, you'll want to take at least one non-Rogue class. My suggestion: Rogue1/Sleeping Tiger Monk1 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sleepingTiger). It'll give you proficiency in Shuriken, Weapon Finesse (which you'll probably want as a Rogue) and better saves. You could also take a level of Fighter or Swashbuckler to nab a prerequisite.


Two levels would also be decent, for bonus Improved Initiative. Plus advancing BAB and all saves by a point, which is very good if you're not using fractional advancement for those; without it, taking that 1-dip in Monk will never see a BAB return.

subject42
2009-10-08, 01:34 PM
There's an item in the MiC (I think) that lets you generate daggers from an opening in a glove. It has a daily pool of points that you can use to enchant those daggers, too. I think that the maximum value is 5 points for a +something bane dagger.

Myrmex
2009-10-08, 01:38 PM
Shurikens really aren't worth the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat. Even with that feat to remove the -4 nonproficiency penalty you'll constantly miss due to the ever-present range increment penalties, since they're -2 to hit at 10', -4 at 20', ... (Well, OK, there's no penalty at 5', but then you've got the AoO for making a ranged attack to worry about.)

Because of the range penalties I really don't like this approach at all. However, if you're going to try something along this line I'd suggest darts instead. They do the same damage as daggers but have a 20' range increment.

There's no penalty at 10 feet, since creatures inhabit squares, not 2 dimensional lines between squares.

ericgrau
2009-10-08, 01:47 PM
No, if you read the rule carefully it says you get the ranged penalty at the range specified, but not less than that range.


Range Increment
Any attack at less than this distance is not penalized for range. However, each full range increment imposes a cumulative -2 penalty on the attack roll. A thrown weapon has a maximum range of five range increments. A projectile weapon can shoot out to ten range increments.

(emphasis mine)

Furthermore someone 2 squares away from you is still 10 feet away. Measure from center of square to center of square if that makes you feel better. Or use the common interpretation of the reach rules (5 feet = 1 square, 10 feet = 2 squares, etc.) as precedent.

Gnaeus
2009-10-08, 01:57 PM
There's an item in the MiC (I think) that lets you generate daggers from an opening in a glove. It has a daily pool of points that you can use to enchant those daggers, too. I think that the maximum value is 5 points for a +something bane dagger.

I like the gloves that create infinite +1 force javelins better for this purpose.

Boci
2009-10-08, 03:00 PM
Not really that impressive though...a 1st level Commoner can flank at 10ft using a longspear. If the ability allowed to to, you know, actually flank at a decent range (say...30ft. It's the range for precision damage after all), then I'd be impressed, but 10ft? hardly worth the effort really.

But now you have all the advantages of throwing a dagger and do not need to worry about the disadvantages (no easy way to get sneak attack and to a lesser exstent no AoO)

taltamir
2009-10-08, 03:16 PM
using exotic materials and enchantments does not change the fact you are using an inherantly inferior weapon. And the same enchantments and exotic materials are available to those who use the inherantly superior weapons.

the solution is really some sort of rebalancing I think.

JellyPooga
2009-10-08, 04:03 PM
using exotic materials and enchantments does not change the fact you are using an inherantly inferior weapon. And the same enchantments and exotic materials are available to those who use the inherantly superior weapons.

the solution is really some sort of rebalancing I think.

Yes you can get the same enchantments and special materials on the superior weapon, but to get a single 6-dagger full-attack (easily possible at level 11 just with Feats and Full BAB) it's going to cost you 12,000 just to get a +1 enhancement bonus to damage. Up that to a +2 bonus and you're looking at 48,000. Adamantine will cost another 18,000, for a total of 66,000 for one round of attacks.

For only 1,000gp more you could get 50 +4 Shuriken and 50 +4 Adamantine Shuriken. Sure they're expendable, but in the short term (and lets face it, the short term is all that really matters in D&D...funds are always replacable), you've got a lot more bang for your buck. Assuming you're only making full-attacks, throwing 6 shuriken per round, that's 16 rounds worth of +4 attacks. If you drop the enhancement bonus to +3 or +2, you can more or less double that and double it again (approx 30-odd +3 shuriken full-attacks or 60-odd +2's).

Now assuming you want to get the most out of your +2 daggers, you're going to put returning on them (though for the same price equivalency you could get another 18 +1 daggers), but that means that your huge investment is only showing +1 to hit and damage...my investment is showing +1 to hit/damage and I can put some extras like Seeking (handy vs incorporeals), Wounding (did you just lose 6 points of Con to my full-attack? shame...) and Bane (who says I have to have them all triggered to the same creature? I'll have 6 Humanbane, 6 Elfbane, 6 Undeadbane, etc, etc).

That I can only use each of mine once (assuming a they hit) is really not that much of a bother to me...I can end a fight faster and more efficiently than you can because my resources, though limited, are more powerful. Think of it in terms of Vancian casting...very powerful but limited uses. Not a perfect analogy (my limited uses aren't replaced every day), but it will do.

So although my base weapon isn't as good, the magical enhancements I get over yours makes mine a better weapon.

ericgrau
2009-10-08, 06:19 PM
A bow is better for ammo though, and you can enchant the bow too. You're only losing the halfling +1 to hit, but once you get into enchanting costs and the cheapo lesser bracers of archery it makes up for it. The downside is you can't TWF or flurry. I could see shurikens maybe being better for a pure ammo focus, with every kind of bane and special material there is. That plus the extra attacks might make it worth it. But rogue BAB plus all those penalties might hurt later on. Ya, I doubt you could outdo a bow this way.

taltamir
2009-10-08, 06:24 PM
when i said superior weapon i meant greatsword instead of a throwing dagger. not daggers over shurikens.

ericgrau
2009-10-08, 06:25 PM
I was comparing a bow to shurikens. If shuriken > greatsword and bow > shuriken then bow > greatsword (for a rogue).

Myrmex
2009-10-09, 12:21 AM
No, if you read the rule carefully it says you get the ranged penalty at the range specified, but not less than that range.

(emphasis mine)

Furthermore someone 2 squares away from you is still 10 feet away. Measure from center of square to center of square if that makes you feel better. Or use the common interpretation of the reach rules (5 feet = 1 square, 10 feet = 2 squares, etc.) as precedent.

One full range increment, 10 feet, is only one full range increment once you hit the backside of the second square. Anything within that range, including the creature in it, is LESS than 10 feet from you.

Curmudgeon
2009-10-09, 01:14 AM
One full range increment, 10 feet, is only one full range increment once you hit the backside of the second square. Anything within that range, including the creature in it, is LESS than 10 feet from you.
No, it doesn't work that way. Each D&D square is 5'. When they're talking about reach weapons they use exact 5' increments for distance.
A longspear has reach. You can strike opponents 10 feet away with it, but you canít use it against an adjacent foe. An opponent 2 squares away is either 10' or 15' (if on a diagonal) distant. They're not some fractional distance away, because D&D doesn't have fractional distances. It only has 5' squares.

Plus your reasoning also doesn't work. If you're attacking from a specific point rather than treating each square as a whole, the back side of the square is only within 10' if the part you're aiming for is exactly parallel to a grid line. Even at the middle of a grid line the two back corners are 10.3' away, so with your reasoning some enemy could squeeze into a corner of their square and be completely past a reach weapon's ability to hit, and also more than a 10' range increment away.

JellyPooga
2009-10-09, 02:47 AM
when i said superior weapon i meant greatsword instead of a throwing dagger. not daggers over shurikens.

I have to ask...why on earth would you be talking about a greatsword for a character that wants to focus on throwing weapons? Sure you could change your build to be a melee-brute, but that would be changing your entire character concept, which defeats the point.

@ericgrau - Yeah, Bow is better. You can stack all your enhancement bonus on your bow (i.e. go for the +5 to hit/damage) and then put your special properties on your arrows. Again, though, if you're going for a thrower build (which has it's advantages; concealability for a start) then you're not going to want to use a bow for stylistic purposes. As you say, you can't TWF or Flurry a bow...at very high levels, a half-decent thrower build can be getting 16 'rounds' off with a full-attack, each of which targets 2 opponents (so that's effectively 32 attacks).

Rogue 15/Master Thrower5

BAB: +16/+11/+6/+1 (4 attacks)
Greater TWF: +14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4/+1 (7 attacks)
Rapid Shot: +12/+12/+12/+7/+7/+2/+2/-1 (8 attacks)
Palm Throw: +12/+12/+12/+12/+12/+12/+7/+7/+7/+7/+2/+2/+2/+2/-1/-1 (16 attacks)
Two with one blow : additional -4 to hit, but doubles the attacks

D-naras
2009-10-09, 03:38 AM
I have to say +1 for the gloves of endless javelins . If you are fixated on daggers, you could use those when you know the opponent wont have DR against them. The gloves are from MIC and are part of a set. They are affordable by seventh level, when DR because more prevalent too.

taltamir
2009-10-09, 03:42 AM
I have to ask...why on earth would you be talking about a greatsword for a character that wants to focus on throwing weapons?


Because by the rules a greatsword is a superior weapon. Which is why I came up with all those suggestions to balance them out that he can pitch at his DM. He should not be crippled (compared to the already crippled melee fighters) just for wanting to play out a cool idea.
Plus it seemed like he himself acknowledges that throwing daggers are not an "ideal" build...

why are you telling him to "use shurikens instead" when he wants to make a DAGGER thrower? I actually suggest feats abilities and items to make a DAGGER thrower viable.

JellyPooga
2009-10-09, 04:00 AM
Because by the rules a greatsword is a superior weapon. Which is why I came up with all those suggestions to balance them out that he can pitch at his DM. He should not be crippled (compared to the already crippled melee fighters) just for wanting to play out a cool idea.
Plus it seemed like he himself acknowledges that throwing daggers are not an "ideal" build...

why are you telling him to "use shurikens instead" when he wants to make a DAGGER thrower? I actually suggest feats abilities and items to make a DAGGER thrower viable.

For a start, a shuriken can quite easily be fluffed as a "light throwing dagger" without so much as blinking an eyelid...it is, after all, essentially what they are.

Second, your suggestions were to introduce something new into the game (new feat, new weapon). My suggestions were to work within the rules to achieve the desired outcome. Which is more likely to be approved by the GM?

No, a dagger throwing build is not "optimal", but then if everyone played an optimised character they'd all be playing Wizards, Druids and Clerics now wouldn't they? However, a "thrower" build can be very effective...as I demonstrated in my last post, a thrower can get a lot of attacks off in one round. If those attacks are highly enchanted, then the potential is high to do a lot of damage. Taking my aforementioned +4 Shuriken (100 of them), that's affordable at Level 12 with some spare change (about 20,000gp spare). At level 12, a thrower build can be getting off 8 attacks on a full-attack against each of 2 opponents (Rogue 7/Master Thrower 5, Improved TWF and Rapid Shot). If those shuriken are all Wounding and assuming a 50% hit rate (which is being mean, I'd expect a better than 50% hit rate), each of those 2 opponents are taking 4 Con damage each turn as well as whatever damage you do. It's not, perhaps, as impressive as the damage output of some other builds, but it's a compelling thought nonetheless.

technophile
2009-10-09, 08:32 AM
Can you even apply Wounding to bows or ammunition? It's listed on the Melee table in the SRD, and not on the ranged, and it doesn't have the text about "Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the X power upon their ammunition." that other ranged-allowed enchantments like Holy or Bane have.

Nor is it listed in the "Ranged Weapon Properties" table in the MIC.

Of course, the Wounding text doesn't say it can't be applied to ranged weapons/ammunition, so I guess it's not completely clear.


Also, just to be clear -- for 50 Wounding shurikens you're talking about more than 18,000 gp (Wounding is a +2 enhancement, and you cannot apply an enhancement to a weapon without also giving it at least a +1 enhancement bonus). That's an extremely money-intensive build, especially if you are throwing 16 or 32 shuriken per round -- a major drawback that a bow-based or (especially) melee-based build doesn't suffer.

Telonius
2009-10-09, 09:06 AM
Question ... an Artificer Infusion can be placed into a Wand, correct? If so, it would only cost 750gp for a Wand of Personal Weapon Augmentation. UMD'ing that, while it takes a minute to do, would bump up the usefulness quite a bit. Springing for a few +1 returning daggers wouldn't be very expensive comparatively.

JellyPooga
2009-10-09, 09:25 AM
Also, just to be clear -- for 50 Wounding shurikens you're talking about more than 18,000 gp (Wounding is a +2 enhancement, and you cannot apply an enhancement to a weapon without also giving it at least a +1 enhancement bonus). That's an extremely money-intensive build, especially if you are throwing 16 or 32 shuriken per round -- a major drawback that a bow-based or (especially) melee-based build doesn't suffer.

The price bracket I was using was 67,000 for 50 +4 Shuriken and 50 +4 Adamantine Shuriken, because 66,000 is the cost of 6 Adamantine +2 Daggers (both of these prices exclude the cost of the weapon itself).

50 +1 Wounding Shuriken would indeed cost you 18,000.
6 +1 Wounding Daggers would cost you 108,000.

Looking at this from the perspective of one combat, the shuriken is a better investment. The daggers will have to be retrieved to be used again, whereas you'll get 8 rounds of full-attacks out of the shuriken for 1/6th the price. If you wanted to get a similar effect with the daggers over the duration of the combat, adding Returning to the cost of those daggers is going to put you back another 80,000 or so. Sure it's better in the long run, but over a shorter term, you're thousands of gold out of pocket for the same effect. To put it another way, going by the Starting Wealth tables, you can afford those shuriken (and nothing else) at level 7. You can't even consider the daggers until level 13. Considering that a 6-thrown dagger full-attack is quite easy to achieve at level 7, if you were hoping for wounding daggers to complement your skills, you're going to be waiting a long time, whereas the shuriken might just be within your reach (if only for a couple of rounds...but then if you only use your special ammo against foes that really need that extra oomph, then you're getting more magic against that foe than your WBL should dictate. You effectively break the wealth curve at the expense of limited use. You're not really supposed to be playing with Wounding weapons until around the level 10+ mark.

I won't deny that the cost in the long term is high and that a bow or melee build simply doesn't have that cost (the bow does really with its ammo), but when talking about a throwing build anyway, my argument is that you can have a lot more flexibility and raw damaging potential out of throwing shuriken rather than daggers. If the OP had specified a ranged-build, then I would be advocating a bow or crossbow; you effectively get twice the enchantment with a bow/x-bow. The fact is, though, is that he didn't, so I'm trying to help build him (using published material) a better thrower character (as requested).

tonberrian
2009-10-09, 09:36 AM
Question ... an Artificer Infusion can be placed into a Wand, correct? If so, it would only cost 750gp for a Wand of Personal Weapon Augmentation. UMD'ing that, while it takes a minute to do, would bump up the usefulness quite a bit. Springing for a few +1 returning daggers wouldn't be very expensive comparatively.

The problem is that the Returning enchantment sucks. For it to work, you can't move, and you can't make a full attack without putting out big bucks for a half-dozen daggers.

There are solutions, though. Whisperknife was mentioned, but as said, it's limited. Bloodstorm Blade 4 is ideal, but that doesn't quite fit with rogue. There's also a level 3 Psychic Warrior power in RotW that would work, but its name escapes me. Put it into a dorje and it's only a UPD check away.

This way, you're only enchanting one dagger, which is comparable to 50 shuriken.

As for the original question, you can enchant a single dagger and use one of these solutions, or alternatively a Chained (Greater) Magic Weapon or similar abilities.

ericgrau
2009-10-09, 09:39 AM
As you say, you can't TWF or Flurry a bow...at very high levels, a half-decent thrower build can be getting 16 'rounds' off with a full-attack, each of which targets 2 opponents (so that's effectively 32 attacks).
I dunno about master thrower but usually high levels is when you don't want to TWF, flurry, rapid shot, etc. Well, maybe 1-2, but not all 3. A -2 to so many attacks is enough to cause a miss or two, which negates the benefit of having an extra attack.

I once posted a fighter build at wizards.com to see if another martial (not caster) build could beat it. Someone posted a monk with a bajillion attacks and said "12 attacks, X damage each, ha I win!" Then I showed him the math and said, "No you don't, your attacks have Y% chance of hitting so you get average Z hits per round, which is less than me, and do less damage per hit too."

OTOH a million attacks at a low bonus does work against mooks.

tonberrian
2009-10-09, 09:45 AM
I dunno about master thrower but usually high levels is when you don't want to TWF, flurry, rapid shot, etc. Well, maybe 1-2, but not all 3. A -2 to so many attacks is enough to cause a miss or two, which negates the benefit of having an extra attack.

I once posted a fighter build at wizards.com to see if another martial (not caster) build could beat it. Someone posted a monk with a bajillion attacks and said "12 attacks, X damage each, ha I win!" Then I showed him the math and said, "No you don't, your attacks have Y% chance of hitting so you get average Z hits per round, which is less than me, and do less damage per hit too."

OTOH a million attacks at a low bonus does work against mooks.

Master Thrower gets touch attacks against anything larger than them, and most things at high levels are big and have low touch AC.

JellyPooga
2009-10-09, 09:53 AM
Master Thrower gets touch attacks against anything larger than them, and most things at high levels are big and have low touch AC.

It also gets to double it's attacks at the cost of not adding your Str bonus to damage (and if you don't have a Str bonus in the first place...).

Telonius
2009-10-09, 10:51 AM
For it to work, you can't move

I don't see how this is a huge drawback. If you're making a full attack, your only possible move is going to be a five-foot step. Make it before you throw the daggers, and there's no problem. (The exception is if you've abandoned all good sense and taken the Spring Attack line, in which case you have bigger problems than picking up daggers).

Curmudgeon
2009-10-09, 11:17 AM
Question ... an Artificer Infusion can be placed into a Wand, correct?
No, not correct. Wands only hold spells.
Item Creation (Ex): An artificer can create a magic item even if he does not have access to the spells that are prerequisites for the item. The artificer must make a successful Use Magic Device check (DC 20 + caster level) to emulate each spell normally required to create the item.
...
An artificerís infusions do not meet spell prerequisites for creating magic items. There is no such thing as a "wand of infusions".
Benefit: You can create a wand of any 4th-level or lower spell that you know.

Gnaeus
2009-10-09, 11:25 AM
I dunno about master thrower but usually high levels is when you don't want to TWF, flurry, rapid shot, etc. Well, maybe 1-2, but not all 3. A -2 to so many attacks is enough to cause a miss or two, which negates the benefit of having an extra attack.

OTOH a million attacks at a low bonus does work against mooks.

Works great if you are a potion thrower. A decent dex and BAB mean that you virtually never miss a ranged touch attack. Bandoleers of alchemists fire and acid flasks for the win.

ericgrau
2009-10-09, 11:29 AM
Master Thrower gets touch attacks against anything larger than them, and most things at high levels are big and have low touch AC.
Wait, so isn't that easily exploitable with a halfling master thrower? Or better yet a tiny sprite or a halfing with reduce person?

A good number of high level creatures are medium and a good number of low-mid-ish level creatures are large. But maybe there are more large creatures at higher levels. As for small creatures at any level, there's not so many. It would seem like a small race would be a must-have for a master thrower.


Works great if you are a potion thrower. A decent dex and BAB mean that you virtually never miss a ranged touch attack. Bandoleers of alchemists fire and acid flasks for the win.
Whoa boy, I'm not gonna get into whether or not you can sneak attack with splash weapons (or if DMs should allow such an exploit to grant touch attacks on something more than a 1d6).

Person_Man
2009-10-09, 11:30 AM
Other options:

As has been mentioned, something like Rogue 3/Warblade 2/Bloodstorm Blade 4/Master Thrower 5/Rogue X is a pretty good combo.

TWF with hand crossbows. You'll get a full magical weapon ranged attack on every attack. I'm pretty sure that there's a way to modify crossbows so that they can be used as melee weapons as well (though I forget the source), and I know for a fact that there are a dozen or more ways to get 3+ hands so that you can reload without a problem (Third Hand from MIC being the easiest).

Just get really big reach. You need to stay within 30 ft anyway for Sneak Attack. So instead of throwing daggers, take Exotic Weapon Proficiency in dagger-whips or Spinning Swords (Secrets of Sarlona, pg 136. Basically a Spiked Chain that you can only use with one hand), and find a reliable way to increase your reach (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777). It fulfills your desire to strike at a range, but adds the benefit of a big threatened area and makes it easier for you to qualify for Sneak Attack.

technophile
2009-10-09, 11:39 AM
The price bracket I was using was 67,000 for 50 +4 Shuriken and 50 +4 Adamantine Shuriken, because 66,000 is the cost of 6 Adamantine +2 Daggers (both of these prices exclude the cost of the weapon itself).

50 +1 Wounding Shuriken would indeed cost you 18,000.
6 +1 Wounding Daggers would cost you 108,000.

Again, assuming you can even put Wounding on ammunition/ranged weapons, which I'm still unsure of. :smallwink:


I won't deny that the cost in the long term is high and that a bow or melee build simply doesn't have that cost (the bow does really with its ammo)
Sure, but that's why you put the expensive or commonly used enchantments on your bow(s), and then buy the ammunition cheaper with varied effects; it doesn't hurt as much as if you only have ammo to hang your enchantments off of.


but when talking about a throwing build anyway, my argument is that you can have a lot more flexibility and raw damaging potential out of throwing shuriken rather than daggers. If the OP had specified a ranged-build, then I would be advocating a bow or crossbow; you effectively get twice the enchantment with a bow/x-bow. The fact is, though, is that he didn't, so I'm trying to help build him (using published material) a better thrower character (as requested).

Oh, absolutely; I wasn't trying to suggest otherwise. I was just pointing out that enchanting shuriken is not going to be cost-effective long term, compared to your average melee-er or even bowman. Which sucks. Personally I think Returning is way overpriced -- it could easily be made cheaper without breaking the game, I think, and it would put throwing builds more on par with melee builds as far as weapon costs and thus effectiveness are concerned.

Gnaeus
2009-10-09, 11:41 AM
Whoa boy, I'm not gonna get into whether or not you can sneak attack with splash weapons (or if DMs should allow such an exploit to grant touch attacks on something more than a 1d6).

RAW sneak attack just requires an attack. Not an attack with a weapon, or any other qualifier. It is generally agreed that you can sneak attack with a spell or other magical effect (like a warlock blast), as long as it requires an attack roll. (Pathfinder erratas this and says you can't sneak attack with splash weapons)

Whether it is an exploit that should or shouldn't be allowed is a balance question, and depends A LOT on what else is in your party. A potion thrower in a high tier well optimized party is, if anything, underbalanced. The same character in a group of tier 4 and 5s is crazy broken. A related question is how easily the rogue can get the bandoleers of acid, holy water, and alchemists fire to make this tactic effective.

Now whether your DM wants to rule that it isn't logical to sneak attack with such a thing is a fair question, but there are lots of weapons you couldn't LOGICALLY sneak attack with. (I sneak up behind him and target the kobold's vital spots with my huge goliath greathammer...).

Curmudgeon
2009-10-09, 12:07 PM
RAW sneak attack just requires an attack. Not an attack with a weapon, or any other qualifier.
Actually, sneak attack requires both a successful attack roll, and damage. Sneak attack damage is generally of the same type as the primary attack (though the sneak attack deals negative energy damage for attacks that do ability damage). So someone splashed by a splash weapon doesn't get sneak attack damage because they didn't get attacked. But someone hit directly by the splash weapon would get sneak attack damage if the primary attack dealt damage. And even though you make an attack roll to throw a tanglefoot bag, it deals no damage so there's no sneak attack.

Hat-Trick
2009-10-09, 12:34 PM
I agree with Curmudgeon, there. The splash doesn't SA, that's silly, but you can always throw a vial directly at an eye or something.

Gnaeus
2009-10-09, 12:37 PM
I wasn't arguing that the splash delivered sneak attack damage. Curmudgeon is correct by my interpretation of the rules. Some people say that splash weapons can't be used for sneak attack.

minchazo
2009-10-19, 04:04 PM
Oh, absolutely; I wasn't trying to suggest otherwise. I was just pointing out that enchanting shuriken is not going to be cost-effective long term, compared to your average melee-er or even bowman. Which sucks. Personally I think Returning is way overpriced -- it could easily be made cheaper without breaking the game, I think, and it would put throwing builds more on par with melee builds as far as weapon costs and thus effectiveness are concerned.

You've forgotten about GMW. I think that's what brought up shuriken in the first place.

Using one round to cast GMW to get 50 +5 shuriken in one round, or get one +5 dagger. You'd almost always use MW weapons, finding some way to case GMW once/twice per encounter. That should be cheaper than getting your six +5 daggers.

tyckspoon
2009-10-19, 04:41 PM
Personally I think Returning is way overpriced -- it could easily be made cheaper without breaking the game, I think, and it would put throwing builds more on par with melee builds as far as weapon costs and thus effectiveness are concerned.

Alternatively you could make Returning more expensive and not suck; a +2 property that lets you make a full attack with a single throwing weapon would be reasonable, I think. Or take the 4E approach, decide that throwers being able to actually work isn't a big deal, and give that property to the current Returning.

Sophismata
2009-10-19, 07:49 PM
Couldn't you use Lightning Ricochet instead of worrying about returning?

Smythen
2009-12-04, 07:25 AM
NOTE!
The Master Thrower's thrown weapon tricks is not stackable. You pick one for your attacks this round. So, palm throw against touch Ac is a no go....

dsmiles
2009-12-04, 08:00 AM
Hey all. I'd like some help.

I wanted to build a good low-to-mid-level sneak-attack rogue, but avoid the TWF tree. I thought of using Quick Draw + Point Blank Shot + Rapid Shot and making a dagger slinger... until I realized that any kind of DR will reduce any damage output pretty hard. I don't want to be throwing 2'002gp daggers, but that's what it'd take to make a dent in something with even DR 5/magic.

Is there a way to make weapons thrown briefly magical? Ideally an item, or a low-level cleric spell.

Thanks!

If you add the TWF tree, you could be an UBER-THROWER!!

But in response to your question there are the magic weapon and greater magic weapon spells (arcane, not divine, though).

Ryuuk
2009-12-04, 08:08 AM
Rather then using the Returning property, why not just grab Teleporting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/weapons.htm#teleporting), it should fix losing the daggers after the throw.

Chrono22
2009-12-04, 08:16 AM
I'm really shocked this hasn't been mentioned yet:
Gauntlet of Infinite Blades (Magic Item Compendium, page 101)
As a swift action, a dagger appears in the hand of the wearer. It disappears 3 rounds after it is created. It also has 5 charges, that allow you to create an improved version of the dagger.
1 charge: +3 dagger
3 charges: +3 dagger of seeking
5 charges: +3 bane dagger of seeking (you choose the type and subtype of creature).

Cost: 6,500 gp.

You can have two, one for each hand. If you follow the DMG's item creation guidelines closely, you can improve charged items. In this case, you would add 1300 gp for each additional charge.

PinkysBrain
2009-12-04, 08:28 AM
NOTE!
The Master Thrower's thrown weapon tricks is not stackable. You pick one for your attacks this round.
Your memory is deceiving you, the ability says no such thing.

Chrono22 ... so, what are you going to throw with your other dozen attacks? (Swift actions are in short supply.)