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Commander_Vimes
2009-10-08, 11:32 PM
My character is going to gain access to the Create Undead spell soon. For a while the only creature I'll be able to creature I'll be able to create is a ghoul. Ghoul have to consume flesh to survive and my Necromancer prefers to use minion that he has absolute control over and which won't try to munch on any handy commoners if he's not watching. I was wondering if there are rules that let you create a different undead instead or if there are any suitable undead I could ask my DM to house rule.

Also, would people consider a Gentle Repose spell cast on a Ghast capable of suppressing its stench rule?

A semi-related question: can you give a skeleton or zombie armor? I know the human skeleton carries a shield, but I haven't seen any with armor.

Ixcuazl
2009-10-09, 12:04 AM
Ghouls don't technically have to eat to survive - hungry ghouls just suffer progressive wisdom loss and go violently feral. A controlled undead won't eat commoners if you tell it not to, though. Stuff a corpse in a bag of holding for when it gets hungry. It's the considerate thing to do, after all.

As for create undead... eeh. Mummies can be good. Ask your DM, but raising a body as a mummy should probably apply the 'mummified' template to the base creature, rather than getting a bog-standard 8hd MM mummy. If so, it's pretty nice, since you now have a minion with class levels.

Other than that... try this thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=181.0). It's pretty neat.

Gentle repose prevents rot, but a ghoul/ghast's stench isn't caused by mundane rot. You could try dressing the ghoul in a heavy robe and telling people it's a monk who has taken a vow never to speak or wash. Someone might believe it.

Skeletons and zombies can wear armour, but they have no armour proficiencies. If it's a super nice one you can either awaken it or give it mithral armour. Otherwise, it'll be stuck with that to-hit penalty.

Commander_Vimes
2009-10-09, 01:47 AM
The thread Ixcuazl linked to lists Bone Creatures from the Book of Vile Darkness among creatures that you can create using Create Undead. How does applying a template to a created creature work? Bone Creature pretty much takes a normal creature and turns it into an undead without any level adjustment, but unlike most skeletons, it retains its mental stats, skill, and feats. If I kill a 5th level fighter could I cast Create Undead on him to bring him back as a 5HD undead version of him? That seems like a very powerful, if expensive, ability, especially as a 8th level character (True Necromancer).

Starscream
2009-10-09, 02:35 AM
I've never tried this, but would it be imbalancing to simply decree that a player can create any undead of a CR equal to or lower than the ones available by default?

That would make ruling for templates easier. For instance, a ghost adds 2 to a monster's CR, so a ghost ogre would be CR 5, equal to that of a mummy, so a caster of 15th level could make one.

This is probably abusable in some ways, because CR is often no more than a rough guideline. But with some common sense rulings, would it work in principle?

AslanCross
2009-10-09, 02:42 AM
Monster Manual III has Create Undead rules for the Lesser Bonedrinker and Bonedrinker. The Boneclaw's entry implies that it can also be created, but gives no specifics. Likely homebrew-able.

Ixcuazl
2009-10-09, 03:18 AM
Create undead doesn't give a level cap for the things you can create, only a material cost per hit die. As written, then, theres no limit.

It'll probably come down to rule 0, though. Bone creatures are noticeably better than the base creature, so a your DM might be reluctant to let you raise and rebuke every boss npc you encounter.

Incidentally, there's a really good Necromancer Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5584.0) you might want to take a poke at, if you haven't already.

Commander_Vimes
2009-10-09, 03:10 PM
So there isn't a specific rule for applying a template to a creature you create using create undead? Should I treat it as if I was making an undead of equivalent HD?

jiriku
2009-10-09, 05:23 PM
I've never tried this, but would it be imbalancing to simply decree that a player can create any undead of a CR equal to or lower than the ones available by default?

That would make ruling for templates easier. For instance, a ghost adds 2 to a monster's CR, so a ghost ogre would be CR 5, equal to that of a mummy, so a caster of 15th level could make one.

This is probably abusable in some ways, because CR is often no more than a rough guideline. But with some common sense rulings, would it work in principle?

A fair start. To extend a general rule of thumb from the existing spells, animate dead can create only mindless undead, create undead can create only corporeal undead, although they may be intelligent, and create greater undead can create intelligent incorporeal undead. Certain undead have a proviso in their description they are created only at the DM's discretion. Those wouldn't be creatable via spell at all without DM go-ahead.