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quiet1mi
2009-10-10, 11:50 AM
I was talking to a fellow player, and I think I made my level 10 beguiler a little too powerful...

The Spell Dc for encounter winning spells such as feebleminded, Dominate Person, Incite Riot and Mind Fog is 25 (will saves) I realized how high this was when a wisdom based spell caster (With a maximum amount of wisdom) would only save 50% of the time...

I also maxed out move silently and hide (with equipment) so I am neigh undetectable except to the most specialized characters, with darkstalker the only way to find me is to beat my hide & move silently check or have Life sense...

I worry because as a Dm, if I had to play against this character so he experienced some challenge, I would do the following.


Send Undead Hunters (Mercenaries) with life sense to track him down and provide aid to enemies (He is 5 feet in front of you)


Have creatures with scent to do the same as above (but as soon as I realize that they are finding me with scent, I could just use a Major Image [includes scent] to overwhelm the area with my scent and/or prestidigitation to change my scent enough to confuse or throw off the wouldbe tracker)


Send characters that have protection from enchantments and/or mind affecting spells (Either through class abilities like the Paladin of Freedom or Items)


Just DM Fiat that they find you, the spell does not work, ETC.... I find this to be the most disturbing because it denies my character the ability to do what he is good at...


Or my personally favorite is to load the encounter with more badguys so the other party members have something to kill, and saddle him with the reality that even though he is a stealthy beguiler, his allies are not...

sonofzeal
2009-10-10, 11:57 AM
You're right to be worried by bonuses against your abilities, because Enchantment especially is one of the most commonly-resisted schools in the game. I'm playing a lvl 10 character now who would have an effective +23 on saves against your charm/compulsion spells, and you're now in the levels when at least some foes will be immune. That, IMO, should be your biggest worry.

Boci
2009-10-10, 12:04 PM
How about cutting down on your Dc and hopeing the Dm will in return not just use monsters immune to your spells?

quiet1mi
2009-10-10, 12:12 PM
Hmmm... Could you post it so I can show my DM (I do not want him to just use DM Fiat)

Another problem is that you could be immune to charm and compulsion but you are not immune to illusions or a bolt from heavy crossbow with greater invisibility... nor is your ally completely immune to enchantments...

It may be a D10 but it adds up...

Another problem is if the DM makes a monster/NPC specialized to take me out, there are other players in the group that could just beat them over the head...

My worry is that encounters are only as tough as the weakest link viewed by every party member... Perhaps, if he did not let us rest and recover our spells so I would have to do what V did in 684 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0684.html) and reserve my powers until it is truly needed...

Toliudar
2009-10-10, 12:34 PM
Unless you're heading out on your own a lot (which has its own problems, like slowing down the game), the hiding will be most useful in combat. Staying unnoticed in combat is what beguilers do to survive, so that all seems pretty manageable. Especially with glitterdust, see invisibility, etc all pretty commonly available to mix things up a bit.

If the worst thing that a level 10 character is doing is hitting creatures with a d10 (your heavy crossbow) every other round, for 10 rounds, then that's hardly a problem I'd be sweating, as a DM.

Also keep in mind that there are area effect spells, surprise attacks, fogs and a variety of other effects that will limit your effectiveness without completely hosing you. Unless you're getting feedback that the other players feel like you're stealing the show, I wouldn't worry too much.

Eldariel
2009-10-10, 12:58 PM
Uhm, 50% vs. Wisdom-based casters? Not buying that, quick calculation:

18 Wis + 2 levels + 4 item = 24 Wis = +7
Base save = +7
Greater Resistance-spell or Cloak of Resistance = +3 (or more with Cloak; +4 is already affordable)

Even without accounting for the potential Morale-bonuses, racial bonuses, class-based bonuses, straightout immunities (Protection from Alignment just plain stops domination-effects cold and is easy enough to keep up by 10), that's +17 or 65% success rate.

And they have access to Alter Fortune for a reroll, along with possible Domain-powers (e.g. Luck or Pride) or such that further lower the chance to fail. And a large number of Morale-bonus granting spells exist; you could well be looking at +22. Same with Owl's Insight for Druids; +2-+3 right off the bat.

quiet1mi
2009-10-10, 03:28 PM
whoops forgot the Cloak of Resistance and Owl's Wisdom...

As for Protection from alignment... The group and the Gm have labeled me True Neutral with lawful tendencies...

Morale bonuses from things like good hope, and the Racial +2 bonus vs spells with dwarves (+2 vs enchantment with Elves, Illusions with Gnomes) sound like a start...

Do Illusions count as mind affecting... I know phantasms (Figment in someone's mind), Patterns (can be seen, but mind effecting happens when you look at it)... Figment (Silent Image) and Glamers (Disguise Self) are not mind affecting...

The D10 Crossbolt was just to illustrate that getting around Enchantments does not lead to instant-win vs Beguiler

Kylarra
2009-10-10, 03:35 PM
protection from alignment stops dominate effects regardless of the source.

woodenbandman
2009-10-10, 04:45 PM
See the main problem there is that you optimize more than your DM, who doesn't have/want to take the time to make his monsters as min/maxed as you. He could probably build a character that can spot your beguiler, but he doesn't have that kinda time. One of the reasons that some DMs hate optimizers is that they put more work on the DM.

Eldariel
2009-10-10, 04:53 PM
whoops forgot the Cloak of Resistance and Owl's Wisdom...

Owl's Insight is a different spell in Spell Compendium (Druid 5) that grants Insight-bonus equal to ½ your CL to Wisdom for an hour, allowing them to add a couple of more points to Wisdom for rather long periods.


As for Protection from alignment... The group and the Gm have labeled me True Neutral with lawful tendencies...

As said, it protects against all domination regardless of alignment.


Morale bonuses from things like good hope, and the Racial +2 bonus vs spells with dwarves (+2 vs enchantment with Elves, Illusions with Gnomes) sound like a start...

Cleric has a lot of multitarget spells that fall here, such as Conviction, and Mass, (level 1/3, 10 min/level, +2 plus one per 6 CLs Morale to Saves), Recitation (level 4, round/level, +2 Luck to attacks and saves, or +3 if they serve the deity of the caster) and such. All from Spell Compendium, btw.


Do Illusions count as mind affecting... I know phantasms (Figment in someone's mind), Patterns (can be seen, but mind effecting happens when you look at it)... Figment (Silent Image) and Glamers (Disguise Self) are not mind affecting...

Depends on the Illusion. It's mentioned if it's mind-affecting.

quiet1mi
2009-10-10, 05:12 PM
Protection from X: protects against all domination, AWESOME... what about charm spells and soft control like suggestion?

AslanCross
2009-10-10, 05:39 PM
Protection from X: protects against all domination, AWESOME... what about charm spells and soft control like suggestion?

Thus sayeth the SRD:


Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect.

That pretty much covers everything.

Leewei
2009-10-10, 10:51 PM
Actually, compulsion effects that grant ongoing control are blocked. Compulsions that don't grant ongoing control (i.e. most compulsions that aren't dominate person (or variations), suggestion or geas). That still leaves a good arsenal of nastiness, including feeblemind.

quiet1mi
2009-10-11, 11:25 PM
There is still illusion, and Dispel Magic...

Without a doubt Protection from X is powerful for that reason...

Is Spell focus Illusion even worth it if you can just make your illusions hard to interact with?

gdiddy
2009-10-12, 01:24 AM
One lvl 6 Warlock with The Devil's Own Sight and Voracious Dispelling will ruin your day.

As would a lvl 1 commoner with a bag of flour.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-12, 02:33 AM
Also, beware counterspells, and spell turning effects.

What's your odds of passing your own feeblemind?

Burley
2009-10-12, 07:45 AM
I was talking to a fellow player, and I think I made my level 10 beguiler a little too powerful...

The Spell Dc for encounter winning spells such as feebleminded, Dominate Person, Incite Riot and Mind Fog is 25 (will saves) I realized how high this was when a wisdom based spell caster (With a maximum amount of wisdom) would only save 50% of the time...

I also maxed out move silently and hide (with equipment) so I am neigh undetectable except to the most specialized characters, with darkstalker the only way to find me is to beat my hide & move silently check or have Life sense...

I worry because as a Dm, if I had to play against this character so he experienced some challenge, I would do the following.


Send Undead Hunters (Mercenaries) with life sense to track him down and provide aid to enemies (He is 5 feet in front of you)


Have creatures with scent to do the same as above (but as soon as I realize that they are finding me with scent, I could just use a Major Image [includes scent] to overwhelm the area with my scent and/or prestidigitation to change my scent enough to confuse or throw off the wouldbe tracker)


Send characters that have protection from enchantments and/or mind affecting spells (Either through class abilities like the Paladin of Freedom or Items)


Just DM Fiat that they find you, the spell does not work, ETC.... I find this to be the most disturbing because it denies my character the ability to do what he is good at...


Or my personally favorite is to load the encounter with more badguys so the other party members have something to kill, and saddle him with the reality that even though he is a stealthy beguiler, his allies are not...


I just wanna say that I feel your pain. Though I haven't actually had the opportunity to destroy anybody's mind with my Beguiler 7/Master of Masks 2, the save DC for my first level spells is around 25. I purposely took a poor prestige class to keep myself from outshining the wizard. Though, I'm pretending to be a wizard, so...