PDA

View Full Version : Making Due: An Optimisers Challenge



ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-10, 02:04 PM
There was a thread a while back in which someone was lamenting that his gaming group were horridly sub-optimal, and he was trying to not completely outshine them. The topic diverged, and someone made the comment "So take a crappy class and optimize THAT", and, well, check my sig for the following comment.

Okay, by now, most people are familiar with the Class Tier system, and it is widely regarded as accepted that some classes just... don't measure up.

I want them to.

So here's the challenge: Use a class which is widely regarded as 'weak' (Truenamer, CW Samurai, Monk...) and make it viable in a campaign.

The Rules:

* Nothing higher than a Tier 5 class. Tier system found here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0)

* 32 point buy

* The exception is Lightning Warrior. While it is a Tier 7 character, due to lack of familiar and specialization, it is so completely hopeless and beyond help that we needn't bother.

* Resulting character must be able to reliably and consistently contribute something meaningful to a Tier 3 party.

*The majority of your levels (let's go with 3/4 of class levels) MUST be tier 5 or worse classes. Monk being touted as 'viable' by taking only 2 levels of it before going elsewhere doesn't make Monk more powerful, it just points out how weak it is that you have to minimize the problem. Multiclassing multiple Tier 5 or worse classes to create an effective build is not only allowed, but encouraged!

* No races with LA greater than +0. This is about the class being powerful, not about the race being powerful.

* The character must utilize skills and abilities granted by that class to be taken into consideration. Thus, using cross-class ranks in UMD and partially-charged wands is not going to be considered a viable entry, because it is not class-related.

* Pre-Epic characters only.

* Official WoTC sources only. No Dragon Mag. No web-publications. No Chicken-Infested

* No already known sources of extreme cheese (Pazuzu -> punpun, Candle of Invocations, Polycheeze, Diplomancer, infinite loops of any kind, Leadershp...). That would be the cheezy combo being cheezy, not the class being viable.

An example:Takahashi no Onisan (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=153726). He used to be straight CW Samurai, but now he's still got 10 levels of it, so the majority of his levels are in CW Samurai, widely regarded as a joke. Mostly, the three levels of other classes are to augment and increase his basic combo: Intimidate to Demoralize and Lockdown. He's a fairly good lockdown tank, unless the opponents are Mindless or are Immune to Fear. Every opponent within 30' of him needs to make a DC 46 check (1d20 + HD + Wis Mod + save vs fear mods) or become Cowering. As a Move action. Every round.

Sure, he's not perfect. Mindless critters, or Paladins of 3rd level or higher, are immune to him. But yanno what? That leaves a *LOT* of things that are. And he's only 13th level. He'd probably be a lot better, and not as gear dependent, as a level 20 build.

Contest will run until Oct 31st. Any submissions made or edited after this date will be void. Voting will occur the following week.

Submissions:

Theldras Menatharan (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=27160): Truenamer 20.*

Uses custom magic item to significantly boost power... might get a lot of milage out of a one-level dip in Exemplar to Take 10 on skill checks...

Fistbeard Beardfist :
Monk2/Thug Fighter10/Expert1/Deepwarden2/Fist of the Forest1/Drunken Master4*

*normally has too many levels in PrC's, but Drunken Master is so widely seen as a really lousy PrC that I'll let it slide.

Gralamin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7095255&postcount=33) has submitted an entry, but Mind's Eye is not a valid source, as the rules explicitly prohibit web sources. Also, how are you Flurrying with your Mindblades when they aren't Monk weapons?

Draz has submitted Sir Cadrus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7095834&postcount=34) but Karoti is a web-source, and thus not allowed, and it seems to be more about gear than about the class. I also don't see how he can qualify for Travel Devotion without the Travel Domain.

ZeroNumerous has submitted Iffy the Knifer (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=159311) who might benefit from the feat Shadow Blade enormously, if he can somehow shake the feat free to get it. I'm also surprised he didn't pick up the Diamond Mind strike which lets him attack as though his opponent was flat-footed, which should not only increase his damage output, but also his chances of hitting.

Dspyer has submitted this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7096750&postcount=37) build, which makes surprising use out of Expert, although most of the damage comes from the Swordsage dip.

He has also submitted this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7097296&postcount=40) interesting build. The only problem is that he doesn't have any levels of Rogue to qualify for Daring Outlaw (no, Assassin's Stance doesn't let you qualify), otherwise it would be even more amazing. Try Warblade1/Rogue3/Swashbuckler 16. Still legal

SonOfZeal has the +5 Holy Cajones to submit Bubs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7097263&postcount=38), who is only level 4, but still a significant threat with the pets he is able to tame. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen a more powerful 4th level build, even with arcane early entry shennanigans, barring PunPun himself.

Ernir has submitted Allaria the Peacekeeper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7097761&postcount=47). He mentions significant damage output, but I don't see how with Vow of Peace *AND* Vow of Nonviolence.

Mabriss Lethe has submitted Civil Simon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7098729&postcount=60) as a surprisingly versatile meatshield.

Temet Nosce
2009-10-10, 02:15 PM
Half Minotaur Monk 11/Initiate of Draconic Mysteries 8 with various items for increasing damage size (mighty wallop, et al). I'm to lazy to calculate the damage, but if I recall right it would be in multiple D20s.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-10, 02:18 PM
Half Minotaur Monk 11/Initiate of Draconic Mysteries 8 with various items for increasing damage size (mighty wallop, et al). I'm to lazy to calculate the damage, but if I recall right it would be in multiple D20s.

What about all those RHD's you are missing?

also, to try and place an emphasis on the class itself being power, rather than a gateway, I've explicitly listed that you must have 3/4 of your class levels (including RHD) and will be placing a limitation on races with LA over 0

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-10, 02:19 PM
Adepts get Familiars. This makes them more powerful than tons of other classes, such as the Lightning Warrior.

Grynning
2009-10-10, 02:25 PM
Adepts get Familiars. This makes them more powerful than tons of other classes, such as the Lightening Warrior.

I dunno, a "Lightening" warrior would imply that they can affect gravitational forces, bending physics in ways previously unknown to man. Or perhaps they can non-destructively reduce the mass of objects, violating the laws of thermodynamics. That sounds like a pretty potent ability.

If you're talking about a Lightning Warrior though...yeah, they would totally lose. They can't specialize either.

@Shneeky - that fight in your sig is made of win.

Temet Nosce
2009-10-10, 02:25 PM
What about all those RHD's you are missing?

RHDs from what? Unless I'm even more forgetful than usual Half-minotaur is LA 1 with no RHD.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-10, 02:28 PM
RHDs from what? Unless I'm even more forgetful than usual Half-minotaur is LA 1 with no RHD.

Ahh, I didn't see the 'half' part. Updated to restrict LA races.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-10, 02:29 PM
What about all those RHD's you are missing?

also, to try and place an emphasis on the class itself being power, rather than a gateway, I've explicitly listed that you must have 3/4 of your class levels (including RHD) and will be placing a limitation on races with LA over 0

1/2 Minotaur is a template, no RHD. Both it and 1/2 Ogre are better than the race they are based on as they grant size ability score bonuses (in addition to the stated bonuses).

A little cheesy, but not broken cheese.

Adumbration
2009-10-10, 02:30 PM
If I recall correctly, Truenamer was rated pretty low in the tier system.

Here's my 20th level Truenamer. (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=27160)
And here's what he did, fighting Doomsday in a party. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117258)

I like to think he did adequately, although the fight was never finished. The only slightly questionable part of the character is the custom item of Third eye of Truespeak.

Grynning
2009-10-10, 02:32 PM
I have a question about the intent of the thread, actually. What exactly do you mean by "viable in a campaign?" Because if you're setting the bar at Tier 4, that's not hard. Straight Rogue is viable in a campaign all by itself, as are several other well-known builds at that tier.

Do you perhaps mean that the characters should be competitive/comparable with Tier 3 and higher classes?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-10, 02:33 PM
I have a question about the intent of the thread, actually. What exactly do you mean by "viable in a campaign?" Because if you're setting the bar at Tier 4, that's not hard. Straight Rogue is viable in a campaign all by itself, as are several other well-known builds at that tier.

Do you perhaps mean that the characters should be competitive/comparable with Tier 3 and higher classes?

Pardon, you are right. Setting the bar at Tier 5. Should be as effective as a normal Tier 3, or at least not be relegated to worthlessness in a Tier 3 party.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-10, 02:34 PM
You should have a list of Tier 5 classes, and check off the ones that get optimized as time goes on.

Adumbration
2009-10-10, 02:34 PM
To clarify the contestants, could someone post or link to the tier system we're talking about in this case? I for one don't have it handy right now.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

Grynning
2009-10-10, 02:35 PM
I will link the original tier system post for ya:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0

Everyone should bookmark this, I find it incredibly useful as a reference, whether you agree with it or not.

Temet Nosce
2009-10-10, 02:36 PM
Ahh, I didn't see the 'half' part. Updated to restrict LA races.

Meh, still works even before you start in on magic increasing it. 1d10 with two size increases puts you at 1d20 before you even start modifying it. The Half-Minotaur part was just a general gesture towards how it could get even more powerful. Now if you were letting us play with more PrCs there's another class in some Dragon Magazines I seem to recall which also increases die size (D100s anyone?)

Regardless though, the build is perfectly feasible albeit not exactly impressive (working with D20s and various magic size/weapon size increasers it'd probably average a few hundred damage per turn, not exactly awe inspiring at those levels...)

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-10, 02:37 PM
You should have a list of Tier 5 classes, and check off the ones that get optimized as time goes on.

Well, there might be different ways of making the classes viable.

I focused on Lockdown via Intimidate for CW Samurai, but someone can also try to take advantage of the free Bastard Sword proficency, or the Duo Wield bonus feats and find a way to stack extra damage to be a decent damage dealer.


To clarify the contestants, could someone post or link to the tier system we're talking about in this case? I for one don't have it handy right now.Updated in OP.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-10, 02:38 PM
Meh, still works even before you start in on magic increasing it. 1d10 with two size increases puts you at 1d20 before you even start modifying it. The Half-Minotaur part was just a general gesture towards how it could get even more powerful. Now if you were letting us play with more PrCs there's another class in some Dragon Magazines I seem to recall which also increases die size (D100s anyone?)

Regardless though, the build is perfectly feasible albeit not exactly impressive (working with D20s and various magic size/weapon size increasers it'd probably average a few hundred damage per turn, not exactly awe inspiring at those levels...)

Go ahead and write it up and submit it, then. Just remember, 3/4 of the class levels have to be levels in the class you are showcasing.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-10, 02:39 PM
Well, there might be different ways of making the classes viable.

So make a list and check it twice.

Figure out who's been naughty or nice.

Grynning
2009-10-10, 02:43 PM
I'm thinking the ultimate challenge here would be to multiclass between as many tier 5 and 6 classes as you can and make it work.

Miko from OoTS is kind of an example of this type of character, Paladin/Monk MC. You could throw in a dip of CW Samurai to grab her proficiency with her Daisho and TWF (which is strangely more optimal than burning the feats on it as her in-universe build does, remember, she has no levels in Samurai).

I'd like to do something with Soulknife but I don't own Complete Psionic or Secrets of Sarlona, which I think you'd really need for that one...hmm, I see a trip to half-price books in my future.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-10, 02:45 PM
Should I try to optimize the Lightning Warrior, or is it so weak as to be beyond help and the scope of this challenge? (Tier 7 if you will)

We could get it a familiar with the Obtain Familiar feat, and force specialization by going into Red Wizard, but I don't know if it'll be enough, since we wouldn't be using class features of the Lightning Warrior.

Eloel
2009-10-10, 02:47 PM
And really, without heal spells, he's prone to die.

Grynning
2009-10-10, 02:49 PM
Should I try to optimize the Lightning Warrior, or is it so weak as to be beyond help and the scope of this challenge? (Tier 7 if you will)

We could get it a familiar with the Obtain Familiar feat, and force specialization by going into Red Wizard, but I don't know if it'll be enough, since we wouldn't be using class features of the Lightning Warrior.

Shneeky seems to have fixed the OP to account Lightning Warrior ;)

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-10, 02:50 PM
I'm thinking the ultimate challenge here would be to multiclass between as many tier 5 and 6 classes as you can and make it work.

Miko from OoTS is kind of an example of this type of character, Paladin/Monk MC. You could throw in a dip of CW Samurai to grab her proficiency with her Daisho and TWF (which is strangely more optimal than burning the feats on it as her in-universe build does, remember, she has no levels in Samurai).

I'd like to do something with Soulknife but I don't own Complete Psionic or Secrets of Sarlona, which I think you'd really need for that one...hmm, I see a trip to half-price books in my future.

Yes, yes, and heck yes!!! If you can multiclass Tier 5 or worse classes to make a viable build, then BY ALL MEANS! I want to see the result!


Should I try to optimize the Lightning Warrior, or is it so weak as to be beyond help and the scope of this challenge? (Tier 7 if you will)Sadly, the Lightning Warrior is beyond all help. Let us mourn his passing, and move on to something we might be able to do something with.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-10, 02:50 PM
Yes, yes, and heck yes!!! If you can multiclass Tier 5 or worse classes to make a viable build, then BY ALL MEANS! I want to see the result!
That sounds a lot like... FISTBEARD BEARDFIST (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6790025&postcount=19)!!!

We'd have to replace Ranger with something that gives the same knowledges, and of course use Drunken Master, so something like

Monk2/Thug Fighter10/Expert1/Deepwarden2/Fist of the Forest1/Drunken Master4

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-10, 02:51 PM
So make a list and check it twice.

Figure out who's been naughty or nice.

*wipes soda from screen*


That sounds a lot like... FISTBEARD BEARDFIST (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6790025&postcount=19)!!!

We'd have to replace Ranger with something that gives the same knowledges, and of course use Drunken Master, so something like

Monk2/Thug Fighter10/Expert1/Deepwarden2/Fist of the Forest1/Drunken Master4

If you can edit, I can edit too! And we have our first submission! Normally, that would be too many levels of PrC's, but Drunken Master is so widely considered worthless that I'll let it slide.

Adumbration
2009-10-10, 03:08 PM
If you can edit, I can edit too! And we have our first submission! Normally, that would be too many levels of PrC's, but Drunken Master is so widely considered worthless that I'll let it slide.

Did you miss my submission, or does it fail to meet some prequisite?

woodenbandman
2009-10-10, 03:18 PM
What about prestige classes? Those make everything better. SHould we stick to +0 or worse tier?

I wanted to use Incarnum but it's not ranked on a tier system.

I can probably make a decent Monk/Fighter archer, assuming that Zen Archery allows for wisdom to replace minimum dexterity requirements.

Something like: Fighter4/Monk2/archery stuff here.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-10, 03:28 PM
Did you miss my submission, or does it fail to meet some prequisite?

I missed it, although he places a heavy reliance on a custom magic item which technically shouldn't exist... without that +30 to Truespeak, he wouldn't be nearly as able to pull off those 'cannot fail utterances' in the combat thread.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-10, 03:29 PM
What about prestige classes? Those make everything better. SHould we stick to +0 or worse tier?

I wanted to use Incarnum but it's not ranked on a tier system.

I can probably make a decent Monk/Fighter archer, assuming that Zen Archery allows for wisdom to replace minimum dexterity requirements.

Something like: Fighter4/Monk2/archery stuff here.

Incarnum are not considered to be Tier 5 or worse. You can use them to augment, but not as a base class.

Adumbration
2009-10-10, 03:34 PM
I missed it, although he places a heavy reliance on a custom magic item which technically shouldn't exist... without that +30 to Truespeak, he wouldn't be nearly as able to pull off those 'cannot fail utterances' in the combat thread.

True, but disallowing the item would not completely gimp him - it would merely force him to drop the garnishments. He would still have Truespeak modifier of +55 with the Universal Aptitude, which automatically succeeds on the check to affect a single ally or an enemy of near-equivalent CR. Then, if we wish to chain it or make non-SR, we would have to gamble a bit more. A no-SR, no save Slow on any enemy still wouldn't be unfeasible.

EDIT: And there's always the Item familiar, although I do prefer the custom item.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-10, 03:53 PM
True, but disallowing the item would not completely gimp him - it would merely force him to drop the garnishments. He would still have Truespeak modifier of +55 with the Universal Aptitude, which automatically succeeds on the check to affect a single ally or an enemy of near-equivalent CR. Then, if we wish to chain it or make non-SR, we would have to gamble a bit more. A no-SR, no save Slow on any enemy still wouldn't be unfeasible.

EDIT: And there's always the Item familiar, although I do prefer the custom item.

This is true, although I don't think Item Familiar is a very legitimate way of doing things.

As it stands, even without the custom item, the build is perfectly viable as a lockdown build, and has been added to the list of Submission on the OP.

Gralamin
2009-10-10, 03:58 PM
Hmm, Actually owning Complete Psionic and Secrets of Sarlona, I may just try to do an actual working Soulknife (Not using Soulbow). We'll see what I can do...

Gralamin
2009-10-10, 05:13 PM
Since I'm not sure what to build to, I'll do a level by level build.

Here is a beta version, that I think has some potential.
Stats: Assuming 25 point buy: Str 16, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
Race: Any
Loot Wise: Any Stat increase items. Mind Blade Gauntlet (Wounding). 1/day item of Greater Magic Weapon +5.
Skills: Keep Concentration and Autohypnosis up. Rest free.
Attribute Increases: Strength.

Level 1: Class Soulknife, using Hidden Talent (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a). Feat: Monastic Training (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Monastic_Training,all) (Soulknife)
Level 2: Soulknife 2
Level 3: Monk 1. Take Tashalatora (Soulknife) (Secrets of Sarlona, Get Monk AC, Flurry of Blows, and unarmed strike attack damage). Take Stunning Fist for your monk feat.
Level 4: Soulknife 3 (Use Bonus Feat variant From Mind's Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a))
Level 5: Soulknife 4.
Level 6: Soulknife 5. Take Monk's Spade Mind Blade, your mind blade now is now a two-handed double weapon monk weapon.
Level 7: Monk 2. Take Monastic Training (Fighter)
Level 8: Fighter 1. Grab Hazing Strike. (Can now using stunning Strike to turn off non-magical altered mental states, such as Psionic focus and rage).
Level 9: Soulknife 6. Grab Stunning Master. (Can now use Stunning Strike with monk weapons)
Level 10: Soulknife 7. Grab Deep Attack
Level 11: Soulknife 8.
Level 12: Soulknife 9. Grab Shape Soulmeld (Thunderstep Boots)
Level 13: Soulknife 10
Level 14: Soulknife 11 Grab Psycarnum Blade
Level 15: Soulknife 12. Grab Martial Study (Lightning Recovery)
Level 16: Soulknife 13 - Knife to the Soul is sadly useless. I wish I was allowed to trade this out
Level 17: Soulknife 14
Level 18: Soulknife 15. Grab Open Least Soulmeld (Feet) and Psycarnum Infusion
Level 19: Soulknife 16
Level 20: Soulknife 17

At level 17, we can Flurry of Blows Multiple Throw Mindblade wounding ones for some nice Con damage on a hit. But this definitely can't meaningful contribute yet. This is, however a basis, and suggestions would be nice. Largest problem is how feat starved it is.

Draz74
2009-10-10, 06:35 PM
Paladin is listed as Tier 5, but a straight-up Paladin isn't really that hard to optimize nowadays, especially with Flaws available. Mounted and unmounted are both pretty viable. Here's my take on the unmounted version:

Sir Cadrus
Human Paladin (Healing Spirit variant)
Feats:
Level 1: Power Attack, (human bonus) Serenity, (flaw) Travel Devotion, (flaw) Exotic Weapon Proficiency (elven courtblade)
Level 3: Good Karma
Level 6: Battle Blessing
Level 9: Improved Critical (courtblade)
Level 12: Martial Study (iron heart surge)
Level 15: Unbelievable Luck
Level 18: Fortuitous Strike
Equipment: (combine via custom item rules as needed) +1 Impaling Whirling Kaorti-Resin Elven Courtblade, coupla Nightsticks, craploada Level 1 Pearls of Power, Caduceus Bracers, Tooth of Savnok, Greatreach Bracers, Novice Crown of the White Raven, Novice Ring of the Diamond Mind (x2), Novice Desert Wind Cloak, Novice Iron Heart Vest, Novice Devoted Spirit Amulet, Amulet of Heartseeking, Wisdom +6, Strength +6, Constitution +6, etc. etc. etc.

ZeroNumerous
2009-10-10, 06:49 PM
Iffy the Knifer (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=159311). 1d4-2+5d6(Sudden Strike)+1d6(Item)+2d6(Assassin's Stance)+6d6(Iaijutsu)/shot, flat-foots as a move action(free action if he gets a Reduce Person) and can hide in your own shadow if you aren't standing in natural sunlight.

Downside? Fifty-fifty shot to hit on CR appropriate foes. "Eh.. Iffy."

dspeyer
2009-10-10, 07:33 PM
Lots more to do:

Tier 5: Fighter, Monk, CA Ninja, Healer, Swashbuckler, Rokugan Ninja, Soulknife, Expert, OA Samurai, Paladin, Knight
Tier 6: CW Samurai, Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner
Tier 7: Truenamer, Lightening Warrior

I'll update the crossouts as we go.

I suppose none of this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97634) counts because it's gestalt. Still might be worth a look.

dspeyer
2009-10-10, 08:33 PM
Expert 15 / Factotum 3 / Swordsage 2

Maxed skills: Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen, Search, Disable Device, Concentration, Iajutsu Focus
However much is left: Knowledge(local), Knowledge(arcana), Knowledge(nature)

Feats: Darkstalker, Weapon Finesse, Knowledge Devotion, Martial Study (Moment of Perfect Mind), Martial Study (Cloak of Deception), Shadow Blade, Martial Study(Action Before Thought), Martial Stance (Assasin's Stance)

Manuevers: Mind over Body, Shadow Stride, Strength Draining Strike, Bloodletting Strike, Shadow Garrotte, Burning Blade, Greater Insightful Strike
Stance: Hearing the air

Weapon: Brilliant Energy Rapier

Sneak up on your enemies, draw your weapon really fast and kill them (greater insightful strike + iajutsu focus + assasin's stance + burning blade + knowledge devotion makes for lots of damage). It's mostly about the skills (which is what experts are mostly about).

{edit: added knowledge devotion}

sonofzeal
2009-10-10, 09:39 PM
Bubs, Venerable Strongheart Halfling Commoner3/Marshal1

Traits and Flaws
Uncivilized
Murky-eyed


Feats
Flaw - Flexible Mind = +1
Human - Animal Affinity
1 - Skill Focus: Handle Animal
3 - Dinosaur Wrangler


Cha can be as high as 22 (18 base, +3 age, +1 ap)

Buy an Animal Trainer's Kit

Beg the DM for a custom item of Handle Animal (we can technically afford up to a +7 item, depending on your cheese tolerance).

Activate a Marshal Aura of Motivate Charisma.

Become an affiliate of the "Animal Domain" organization (Complete Champion page 30); you only need a +4 affiliate score, and taking full ranks in Handle Animal and Know:Nature gets you there.



Total Handle Animal score: 37 (7ranks +6cha, +6aura, +7 item, +2kit, +2affinity, +3focus, +2affiliate, +1trait, +1flexible), with an additional +4 against Dinosaurs.



Now, the DC to rear a wild animal is 15 + the animal's HD, and doing so gets you up to three of that kind of animal. The DCs to train it afterwards are constant, so that's good. Assuming take 10 is allowed, or we get merely average rolls, we can reliably rear wild animals of up to 32 HD. This includes such fun ones as the Dire Rhinoceros (CR 9) and Dire Elephant (CR 10). However, we also get a +4 with Dinosaurs, raising the limit up to 36.

If you guessed that I was going to roll out a 36 HD dinosaur, you're on the money. Meet the Battletitan (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mmiii_gallery/82982.jpg). At the low end of CR 16, it's not going to be soloing the Tarrasque any time soon. But with AC 35, four natural attacks that are not going to miss, legendary hp, impressive saves, a Str score better than a Storm Giant, Improved Grab, and a buttload of feats to customize with... yeah, you'll be travelling in style. And for all your effort, you get three of these.

At level four.

(edit - You can also raise Magical Beasts of up to 17 HD. I'm sure there's all sorts of fun there, too, but I'll leave that as an exercise to the reader.)

(edit2 - Couldn't resist. Here's a partial list of possibilities: Chronotyryn (CR 19), Disenchanter (CR 17), 12-Headed Cryohydra (CR 13), Nightmare Beast (CR 15), Spellgaunt (CR 12). Unfortunately, training magical beasts is considerably harder, as apparently they're willful folk. Might not take kindly to some ancient, shrivelled halfling giving them orders. Still, hey, roll a 20 and you've got it. And if you've got a trio of pets with Time Stop as an SLA and Dual Actions, you shouldn't have much to worry about.)


(edit3 - Battletitan flavour, just for the win: "Battletitan dinosaurs are massive predatory beasts meticulously bred as hybrids of other dinosaurs. They do not occur naturally; only elaborate nonmagical breeding techniques give rise to the mighty battletitans. Kingdoms that fi eld the dinosaurs in their armies jealously guard the means of their creation, treating such information as a state secret. With the ferocity of the most dangerous carnivores and the defenses of the toughest armored herbivores, a battletitan is a terror to behold." Three of them.



You just know I'm going to be heartbroken if someone finds a hole in my build...)

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-10, 09:42 PM
Take leadership and have your followers and cohorts Aid Another to ensure that you make the checks.:smallsmile:

dspeyer
2009-10-10, 09:42 PM
Warblade 1 / Swashbuckler 19

1: Able Learner, Two Weapon Fighting, White Raven Defense (flaw), Weapon Focus kukri (flaw)
3: Martial Study(Shadow Hand)
6: Clarion Commander
9: Martial Stance(Assasin's Stance)
12: Daring Outlaw
15: Improved Critical (Kukri)
18: Disemboweling strike

Manuevers: 2 White Raven and Moment of Perfect Mind
Skills: Tumble, Concentration, Intimidate, etc.

It's a tank with two tricks. First is your standard perpetual flanking means perpetual sneak attack build, only with 13d6 sa and full bab. Also, there's a constitution-draining approach, with 5 attacks per round, crit on 15-20, 2 points of con and str per critical (with disemboweling strike to keep the con damage piling).

Try to get buffed with Haste.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-10, 09:43 PM
Perhaps you should add a Wounding enchantment to your weapon?

dspeyer
2009-10-10, 09:53 PM
Perhaps you should add a Wounding enchantment to your weapon?

I left out equipment, partly because dual-wielding high-quality weapons gets expensive, but sure.

If I can afford to make them keen, too, I can swap out improved critical for improved two-weapon fighting.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-10, 09:54 PM
You just use Scabbards of Keen Edges for Keen. Wounding is a +2 enchantment, so it wouldn't be too expensive to have on your weapons.

sonofzeal
2009-10-10, 09:54 PM
Take leadership and have your followers and cohorts Aid Another to ensure that you make the checks.:smallsmile:
Well, Leadership required level 6. Besides, the kicker was trying to score the Battletitan, as it's the official animal with the highest HD. I considered going the nanobots route, but honestly that's played out and I think this is classier. However cheese it may be, this guy does it on his own merits.

That said, hey, with nanobots there's no reason we couldn't grab ourselves a Phoenix (CR 24) or Fiendwurm (CR 28). Or heck, there's a DC for "Rear other creature", so the sky's the limit, so to speak.


I'm happy with my Battletitan though.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-10, 09:58 PM
Well, Leadership required level 6.

Keith Baker, who cannot be trusted with a spoon, offers us a way around that particular problem (http://www.scribd.com/doc/14856349/Eberron-Article-Moons-Lunar-Feats).


Feat
Nymm ascendant [Lunar]
Prerequisite: Natural birth
Benefit: Those born while Nymm is ascendant gain +1 bonus to Leadership score to recruit followers or cohorts, this bonus rises to +2 during the month of Nymm. Characters with Nymm Ascendant can take the Leadership Feat at 2nd level.
If a character born under an ascendant moon later develops the Dragonmark that is associated with the ascendant moon, the spell-like abilities of that Dragonmark are cast at +1 caster level.
Special: You may select this eat only as a first level character. You may not take more than one
Lunar feat.

sonofzeal
2009-10-10, 10:05 PM
Keith Baker, who cannot be trusted with a spoon, offers us a way around that particular problem (http://www.scribd.com/doc/14856349/Eberron-Article-Moons-Lunar-Feats).
.............

...

.......

I'm gonna go over here now, m'kay? :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Ernir
2009-10-10, 10:46 PM
I'll do Fighter, Knight, Monk and Paladin.

At once.



Allaria the Peacekeeper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGM-118_Peacekeeper), Human Knight 5/Marshal 1/Passive Way Monk 2/Zhentarim Fighter 9/Paladin 3

The short of it: She deals a few hundred points of (nonlethal) damage per charge, can make enemies attack her, she is very difficult to damage with weapons, she can demoralize as a swift action that causes enemies to cower, and she can trip, bull rush and sunder on the same attack and be decent at each of them. She adds her Charisma bonus to saves, Test of Mettle DCs, opposed combat checks and naturally her intimidation checks.

The longer: Feat chains/class feature combos in use:
Test of Mettle + Vow of Nonviolence [Flaw]. Vow of Peace [Flaw], Starmantle Cloak + Evasion. Increases Test of Mettle DC by 4, increases AC. Any weapons used against her are likely to break, and never deal full damage.

Jotunbrud [Human] + Improved Trip [Monk 2] + Improved Trip [Fighter 1] + Knock-Down [Level 9] + Knock-Back [Level 18] + Art of War. If she hits it, it gets knocked down, and eventually knocked back way out into charging range again. Gets her Charisma modifier and a +4 from the Jotunbrud feat on the opposed checks.

Mounted Combat [Knight 2], Ride-by Attack [Knight 5], Leadership/Dragon Cohort/Wild Cohort [Level 6]. Gets you a decent mount and a way to use it.

Power Attack [Level 3] + Shock Trooper [Fighter 4] + Combat Brute [Fighter 6] + Leap Attack [level 12] + Spirited Charge [Fighter 8] + Valorous Lance + Rhino's Rush (in wand chamber). Charge damage.

Skill Focus: Intimidate [Fighter 3], Imperious Command [Level 15], Swift Intimidation + Never Outnumbered. Causes enemies to cower, with a ludicrously high DC to resist.

Issues I see with the build:

The Test of Mettle DC is likely to be in the mid-20's by 20th level. This is too low.
She can do a lot of things over the course of the levels, but they need to be prioritized. The feats could probably be rearranged a bit better so the chains are completed more or less one at a time, rather than all at once as the current build does it (I just made sure they all fit).
The necessity of dealing nonlethal damage. I am not even sure how legal it is to trigger Knock-Down and Knockback with it. The VoN + VoPeace combo is the part of the build I am least happy about, but without it her Test of Mettle DC drops by another 4, and her resistance to melee damage is reduced.
I made her qualify for Knockback via the Jotunbrud feat. This is not legal by RAW.
Has Leadership or similar, which is such an easy crutch. I still didn't count on cheesing it out, I just want a Griffon or something that won't die in one hit. :smallfrown:


What I see as the build's strengths:

Flexible. It consists of many, mostly independent parts. One can be left out for a feat chain of your choice.
Options in combat. I think this is as versatile as a non-ToB melee character gets (damage, tripping, (effective) bull rushing, intimidation, forced tanking). The only combat-related action I miss is grapple.
Enough damage to one-shot most things, and a demoralize DC to fear. (Pun not intended)
Hard to take down for a melee character. Hilariously difficult to kill in melee combat, and I expect the saving throws to be at least in the mid-twenties to mid-thirties near the end.

dspeyer
2009-10-10, 11:21 PM
It seems to me that this uses knight and fighter in key ways, but doesn't really get to the essence of monk or paladin.

Also, how are you doing nonlethal damage? Are you just taking the -4 penalty?

And you can just buy a griffon without using the leadership feat. I suppose owning an int 5 creature might not be exalted and paladinish.

sonofzeal
2009-10-10, 11:23 PM
Also, how are you doing nonlethal damage? Are you just taking the -4 penalty?
There's an exalted feat for that. "Nonlethal Substition" I think? Too lazy to check. =P

NoldorForce
2009-10-10, 11:28 PM
Where does Bloodstorm Blade fall on the tier system? Additionally, is there any known way to make Blood Wind effectively permanent? (Blood Wind is that spell that turns your natural weapons into thrown weapons.)

Edit: My intent is to make some quirky mishmash involving Monk, Fighter, Bloodstorm Blade, possibly Warshaper (natural weapons), and possibly Barbarian (easy pounce) for a character that does all sorts of quirky Shock Trooper effects...while at range.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-10, 11:31 PM
Where does Bloodstorm Blade fall on the tier system?

Additionally, is there any known way to make Blood Wind effectively permanent? (Blood Wind is that spell that turns your natural weapons into thrown weapons.)

Bloodstorm Blade is much better than Tier 5... probably a solid Tier 3. Heck, it can almost end up a 2.5, seeing how badly it can be abused.

If you want natural weapons thrown, then you need Kensai, and augment your unarmed attacks with the Throwing enhancement. That seems the most logical way to go about doing it.

By the way, there's been some AWESOME entries so far, but my work schedule lately is crap. I will update the OP with all valid submissions tomorrow afternoon.

Ernir
2009-10-10, 11:36 PM
It seems to me that this uses knight and fighter in key ways, but doesn't really get to the essence of monk or paladin.
Paladin? It's a knight riding around on a shiny beast, protecting the innocent and charging the ebil.
I think the Paladin class is awfully lacking of defining class abilities after level 5, anyway. And the level 5 part I replicate with the Leadership feat.

Monk... well, you got me. The only reason it's there is because I thought getting 13 Int for Combat Expertise could be difficult under most PBs. :smalltongue:

Also, how are you doing nonlethal damage? Are you just taking the -4 penalty?
Merciful weapon was my thought.

And you can just buy a griffon without using the leadership feat. I suppose owning an int 5 creature might not be exalted and paladinish.
You can, it's just very very fragile that way. :smallfrown:

NoldorForce
2009-10-10, 11:42 PM
Bloodstorm Blade is much better than Tier 5... probably a solid Tier 3. Heck, it can almost end up a 2.5, seeing how badly it can be abused.

If you want natural weapons thrown, then you need Kensai, and augment your unarmed attacks with the Throwing enhancement. That seems the most logical way to go about doing it.Might the Necklace of Natural Attacks (Savage Species) work? (Though I still need a way to emulate Lightning Ricochet, hmm...)

Ertier
2009-10-10, 11:52 PM
Currently working on a gear-oriented Expert that buffs, has the powers of a combat oriented sorcerer, hundreds of minions and is practically immune to physical attack as long as one of his allies is standing. Viable level 1 - 20, though building as a level 20. Early levels surround scrolls and other minor magic items, as well as serving as a bit of a skill monkey. Mid levels reinforce combat prowess and later levels make him a pain in the ass to any enemies.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-10, 11:53 PM
Might the Necklace of Natural Attacks (Savage Species) work? (Though I still need a way to emulate Lightning Ricochet, hmm...)

Lightning Ricochet, I believe, is only Blodstorm Blade 4 or 5, so you can still squeeze it in, if you take nothing else but Tier 5 levels. Might be able to qualify with feats for maneuvers and stances.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-10, 11:54 PM
Currently working on a gear-oriented Expert that buffs, has the powers of a combat oriented sorcerer, hundreds of minions and is practically immune to physical attack as long as one of his allies is standing. Viable level 1 - 20, though building as a level 20. Early levels surround scrolls and other minor magic items, as well as serving as a bit of a skill monkey. Mid levels reinforce combat prowess and later levels make him a pain in the ass to any enemies.

UMD cheese and Diplomancy are both on the known cheese list, if that is where you are going. Leadership is also on the known cheese list

Kelpstrand
2009-10-10, 11:57 PM
Paladin:

Open up those DMGs to page 204, mounts. Challenge Rating for mounts should be 3 less than Character level, or 4 less if it can fly.

Well let's see. At for example, level 15, a Paladin could have some sort of CR 11 Mount, such as a a Young Adult Copper Dragon.

Oh yeah, and because it's Paladin Mount, it get's +8 bonus HD, which as per the advancement table means a 25HD Mature Adult Copper Dragon with 9th level Sorcerer casting, and ranked at CR 17.

Muhahaha. Paladin is go. Truenamer coming up later.

NoldorForce
2009-10-11, 12:01 AM
Lightning Ricochet, I believe, is only Blodstorm Blade 4 or 5, so you can still squeeze it in, if you take nothing else but Tier 5 levels. Might be able to qualify with feats for maneuvers and stances.Oh, I know that. (I have the class book open right here.) The issue is simply that it either forces me to search for another source of pounce (besides Lion Totem Barbarian) or forces out the warblade level that'd otherwise be used for Bloodstorm Blade prerequisites.

Essentially, it reduces my options further down the line; finding an easier way out is thus helpful.

Edit: Come to think of it, where's Shiba Protector on the tier system? (Oriental Adventures, page 222.) Because Fighter/Barbarian/Bloodstorm Blade/Warshaper/Shiba Protector might work. Finally, is Manipulate Form permitted if it's ONLY used for the size increase? (There's also Enlarge Person + Permanency and such, but this has the advantage of being permanent.)

tyckspoon
2009-10-11, 12:41 AM
Incarnum are not considered to be Tier 5 or worse. You can use them to augment, but not as a base class.

Soulborn? With bonus style points for use of Incarnate Blade or Incarnum Champion.

mabriss lethe
2009-10-11, 01:51 AM
what about the paladin variants in unearthed arcana? Are they considered on par with the core paladin, or are they completely out of bounds for this exercise? (Kinda have my eye set on a Paladin of Tyranny.) So here he goes.


Civil Simon
LE human Paladin of Tyranny 11/Monk3/Fighter 6 (Simon is pretty much meant to be leveled in exactly this order.)

Feats: Death Devotion(human), Evil Devotion(1),Power Attack(3) ,Battle Blessing (6), Profane Life leech (9), Extra Turning* (Sword of the Arcane Order if allowed (12), Divine Vigor(15), Divine Might (18), Stunning Fist (monk1), Combat reflexes (monk2), Robilar's Gambit (f1), Improved bull rush (f2), Shock Trooper (f4), Rapid stunning (f6)(not all of these are choice feats, I'm sure there are some better ones out there.)

Simon always has *something* to do in a battle. At early levels, he relies on his devotion feats to give some quick buffs to his party and some quick debuffs to his foes (or outright kill some of them.) or maybe snag a wand of cure light wounds for backup asap. Once he gets to 4th and can cast spelsl/rebuke undead, he adds another layer to his arsenal. 6th sees him able to effectively quicken all of his spells via battle blessing and then he expands on the things he can do with his rebuke attempts.

At some point it's not out of the question for Simon to go commoner hunting until he finds one that he drops with his death devotion. When that commoner 1 comes back the next night as a wight, he can start working on an army of the undead at his command via rebuke.

Even when he's not using his neat tricks, he's a walking debuff zone with his aura of despair, and isn't too shabby of a fighter, armed or not, armored or not.

None of this even begins to account for his equipment, which can drastically expand his combat options with the use of things like Belts of battle and ToB maneuver items,

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-11, 08:17 PM
Soulborn? With bonus style points for use of Incarnate Blade or Incarnum Champion.

No, let's leave Incarnum out of this, since I don't have the book.

I have updated all submissions to this point, and made comments about their eligibility in the OP.

Grynning
2009-10-11, 10:15 PM
I've noticed that a couple of the builds are kinda evading the spirit of the challenge if not the law, as they are dipping heavily into tier 3 classes. I was kinda hoping for some interesting builds that didn't rely on a ToB/Factotum MC (both of which multiclass well and bring significantly more to the table than the Tier 5 parts of the build).

I'm working on a Paladin/Knight/Fighter (maybe with Monk thrown in) focused on Mounted Combat and Shield/lance use, but I've been out feasting and drinking all weekend so my brain is a bit fuzzy. Hopefully I'll have something banged out by the 31st.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-11, 10:23 PM
I've noticed that a couple of the builds are kinda evading the spirit of the challenge if not the law, as they are dipping heavily into tier 3 classes. I was kinda hoping for some interesting builds that didn't rely on a ToB/Factotum MC (both of which multiclass well and bring significantly more to the table than the Tier 5 parts of the build).

I'm working on a Paladin/Knight/Fighter (maybe with Monk thrown in) focused on Mounted Combat and Shield/lance use, but I've been out feasting and drinking all weekend so my brain is a bit fuzzy. Hopefully I'll have something banged out by the 31st.

Fighter2/Paladin5/KnightX?

Grynning
2009-10-11, 10:35 PM
Fighter2/Paladin5/KnightX?

Something like that, though I was trying to figure out a way to dip a monk variant that gets feats I want in there and not wear armor (because the idea of an unarmored cavalry man was amusing to me). Unfortunately, I think the Serenity feat is banned (since it's from the Dragon Compendium), which means I can't be all Wis/Str like I'd like.

Edit: I forgot that Knight's challenge needs some Charisma. eh, no big deal.

Use the reach of a lance with Stand Still to be an ok tank, use mounted charging goodness for damage, etc.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-11, 10:38 PM
I've noticed that a couple of the builds are kinda evading the spirit of the challenge if not the law, as they are dipping heavily into tier 3 classes. I was kinda hoping for some interesting builds that didn't rely on a ToB/Factotum MC (both of which multiclass well and bring significantly more to the table than the Tier 5 parts of the build).

I'm working on a Paladin/Knight/Fighter (maybe with Monk thrown in) focused on Mounted Combat and Shield/lance use, but I've been out feasting and drinking all weekend so my brain is a bit fuzzy. Hopefully I'll have something banged out by the 31st.

Yea, I've noticed that too...

Perhaps extra points will be given to those builds who do not resort to such tactics.

Grynning
2009-10-11, 10:42 PM
Oh btw - Gralamin's Flurry works with his mindblades because he took the feat to turn it into a Monk's Spade, which is a monk weapon. Don't know if he can still throw them that way.

Why are web sources banned? They are official WotC articles, not from 3rd party sources.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-11, 10:49 PM
Oh btw - Gralamin's Flurry works with his mindblades because he took the feat to turn it into a Monk's Spade, which is a monk weapon. Don't know if he can still throw them that way.

Why are web sources banned? They are official WotC articles, not from 3rd party sources.

Mostly because I'm too worried about some of the other shennanigans from web sources, and I feel it does rather break the spirit.

In fact, I'm tempted to flat outright ban ToB classes (though not feats), as it is clear that they synergize too well, and even a small dip can contribute much more than everything else combined.

Ernir
2009-10-11, 11:00 PM
Ernir has submitted Allaria the Peacekeeper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7097761&postcount=47). He mentions significant damage output, but I don't see how with Vow of Peace *AND* Vow of Nonviolence.

Nonlethal damage output only.

In a... less than exalted campaign, the VoN/VoPeace combo would definitely have to be dumped. But I am playing in a campaign where my character always* drags the baddies to the authorities to face proper judgement rather than CDGing them on the spot, and it works there**. =/



*Now he does, anyway. We had a rather unfortunate incident involving the accidental murder of a local authority figure, he has been careful since then...

**The guy still has issues. But it's because the character is a bit of an ass, not because he deals nonlethal. :smalltongue:

sonofzeal
2009-10-11, 11:11 PM
Mostly because I'm too worried about some of the other shennanigans from web sources, and I feel it does rather break the spirit.

In fact, I'm tempted to flat outright ban ToB classes (though not feats), as it is clear that they synergize too well, and even a small dip can contribute much more than everything else combined.
Eh, don't ban it. But we do need that whole "3/4 in Tier 5-6 class" thing, and the "build needs to utilize what the Tier 5-6 class gives" thing. A CW Samurai 15 / Warblade 5 could be really effective as a Warblade, but wouldn't really get full points for being a Samurai.

Something you could do on this front would be to try to pick one or two "top" builds for each class, the ones that uses it the best. ToB dips wouldn't disqualify you, then, but similar results without would certainly be more in the spirit of the challenge and get better marks. Basically, reward the good rather than punish the bad.

dspeyer
2009-10-12, 10:36 AM
In fact, I'm tempted to flat outright ban ToB classes (though not feats), as it is clear that they synergize too well, and even a small dip can contribute much more than everything else combined.

ToB does synergize amazingly well. A dip in wizard never added that much to a build. Mostly it's the half-levels for initiator level thing.

I figured the key was to keep the essence of the build in line with the essence of the class. Essences are subjective, and sometimes debatable, but often they can be clearly seen.

Indon
2009-10-12, 01:14 PM
So, I made a Healer build. Problem is, I'm not sure if it works.


CG Human Warmage 1/Fighter 1/Healer 18. Max Wisdom and have 10 Charisma, and otherwise select Clericzilla stats.

Feats:
Human: Flexible Mind (Dragon #326) - Makes Know(Religion) and one other skill always class skills.
Level 1: Arcane Disciple: War (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#warDomain) (Correlon Larethian) - Lets you cast War domain spells as arcane spells.
Level 3: Alternative Source Spell (Dragon #325) - Lets you cast any of your divine spells as arcane spells or vice versa at -1 CL.
Level 6: Arcane Disciple: Protection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#protectionDomain)
Level 9: Arcane Disciple: Chaos (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#chaosDomain)
Level 12: Arcane Disciple: Good (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#goodDomain)

Equipment: Nonmetal heavy armor (such as dragonhide) and shield, ample wands of curative spells.

The Healer is a full caster with a heavily restricted spell list. So, I expanded the spell list! This healer has access to four domains worth of spells in addition to their standard list, including gems such as Divine Power, though at -1 Caster Level. Also, you don't get 9'th level casting until level 19.

Dare I say, I think this character is competitive with Tier 3 classes. Sadly, I had to take my first level in a Tier 4 class to make it work by level 12 - using Fighter or Healer as the first class and abiding strictly by the 75% low-tier rule for each level would make it take much longer to fill out the build. I can rewrite it with that in mind if that's necessary to make it qualify.

The trick is pretty simple: You start with some source of arcane casting (couldn't find a Tier 5 class that gave me an Arcane spell), get Knowledge (Religion) and Knowledge (Arcana) as class skills, and start taking Arcane Disciple. In this case, I chose Corellon Larethian, as Flexible Mind requires a Chaotic alignment and Healer requires a good one.

Then, you take Alternate Source Spell, which allows you to cast the domain spells you have access to as divine spells. Then, you take Healer levels - the Healer being a full Divine caster.

The problem is, I don't think being able to prepare those spells as divine spells lets me memorize them with Healer slots. I'm not sure, though, since it's a somewhat obscure mechanic I don't have experience with. So, anyway, does it work?

Barring this trick working, there might be some way to enhance the Healer's spell list using a level or two of Cleric (specifically, I'm contemplating some abuse of Customize Domain).

sonofzeal
2009-10-12, 01:21 PM
The problem is, I don't think being able to prepare those spells as divine spells lets me memorize them with Healer slots. I'm not sure, though, since it's a somewhat obscure mechanic I don't have experience with. So, anyway, does it work?
I don't think so. Arcane vs Divine don't come into the equation; if someone multiclasses Wizard/Sorcerer, their Wiz and Sorc spell slots don't overlap. They can't cast spells they know as Wiz spontaneously in their Sorc slots, and Sorc spells known can't be prepared in their Wiz slots.

Now... Geomancer might help with this, if I remember correctly. Worth checking out at least.

Indon
2009-10-12, 02:47 PM
Hmm. The only part of the geomancer ability which implies I'd be able to pull off the trick is where it specifies that you could burn arcane spell slots to spontaneously cast as a Cleric - but it makes no further mention of spontaneous casting or any other interchange of spell lists.

sonofzeal
2009-10-12, 03:01 PM
Hmm. The only part of the geomancer ability which implies I'd be able to pull off the trick is where it specifies that you could burn arcane spell slots to spontaneously cast as a Cleric - but it makes no further mention of spontaneous casting or any other interchange of spell lists.
Yeah.... and honestly, I think that's as close as you're going to get. Unless you can somehow qualify for Arcane Disciple as a Healer (Hmmm.... Rainbow Servant Healer?), I don't think this is going to pan through.

Indon
2009-10-12, 03:51 PM
Well, if there's any way to cast a Divine spell list as Arcane, then... wait.

Could I use Alternative Source Spell to qualify as being able to cast Arcane spells with the Healer spellcasting progression?

I'd have to change the order of some of the feats, and it'll take longer to finish the build, but...

sonofzeal
2009-10-12, 03:53 PM
Well, if there's any way to cast a Divine spell list as Arcane, then... wait.

Could I use Alternative Source Spell to qualify as being able to cast Arcane spells with the Healer spellcasting progression?

I'd have to change the order of some of the feats, and it'll take longer to finish the build, but...
Now you're thinking with portals!

Indon
2009-10-12, 04:20 PM
I present, the God-Devoted Healer, who I'm pretty sure works now.

Any Good-Alignment Warmage 1/Fighter 1/Healer 18. Max Wisdom and have 10 Charisma, and otherwise select Clericzilla stats.

Feats:
Level 1: Any feat
Level 3: Alternative Source Spell (Dragon #325) - Lets you cast any of your divine spells as arcane spells or vice versa at -1 CL.
Level 6: Arcane Disciple: War (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#warDomain) (Correlon Larethian) - Lets you cast War domain spells as arcane spells on a spellcasting list of your choice that you can cast arcane spells with.
Level 9: Arcane Disciple: Protection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#protectionDomain)
Level 12: Arcane Disciple: Chaos (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#chaosDomain)
Level 15: Arcane Disciple: Good (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#goodDomain)

Equipment: Nonmetal heavy armor (such as dragonhide) and shield, ample wands of curative spells.

The Healer is a full caster with a heavily restricted spell list. So, I expanded the spell list! This healer has access to four domains worth of spells in addition to their standard list, including gems such as Divine Power. Unfortunately, you don't get 9'th level casting until level 19.

Dare I say, I think this character is competitive with Tier 3 classes. Sadly, I had to take a level in a Tier 4 class by level 3 to make it work by level 15 - abiding strictly by the 75% low-tier rule for each level would probably keep the build from filling out until level 18. If I could get an Arcane spell with a dip in any T5+ class (except Lightning Warrior, if ever there were a dip class that would give a build negative power, that would be it), I could make that restriction, but even the Hexblade is T4.

Optionally, pick a different Good deity (Ehlonna grants Animal/Good/Plant/Sun, for instance) and/or don't bother with the Fighter level, for a castier Healer. You could also dip Paladin instead of Fighter for armor proficiency.

The build functions by taking a level in Warmage and Healer to be able to cast both divine and arcane spells, then taking the Alternate Source Spell feat to gain Divine casting capability as a Warmage and Arcane casting capability as a Healer. Then, you use your Arcane casting capability as a Healer to take Arcane Diciple for a Good-aligned deity for the Healer casting progression. Now pursue Healer, and you're a full caster, minus one or two caster levels, with some prime spells to exploit that caster potential with.

Edit: While trying to find an arcane class of T5 or lower, I took a closer look at the thread's requirements, and sadly this build wouldn't qualify even if I found one, as it relies on a feat from Dragon magazine. :(

Mushroom Ninja
2009-10-12, 04:51 PM
I've been playing around with the idea of a Monk Charger. Here's what I have so far:

The Tiger-Spear Monk

Race: Shifter

Classes: Monk 11/Fighter 4/Weretouched Master (Tiger) 5

Abilities: Max out STR. Beyond that, it's up to you.

Feats:
1st: Serpent Strike
3rd: Power Attack
6th: Improved Bullrush
9th: Improved Sunder
12th: Leap Attack
Fighter Bonus: Shock Trooper
Fighter Bonus: Combat Brute
15th: Some Shifter Feat
Fighter Bonus: Open
Bonus Shifter Feat: Open
18th: Open
Bonus Shifter Feat: Open

Basically, you use the standard Power Attack Charger tactics, except you flurry with a spear at the end of the charge. By twentieth level you can easily dish out several hundred damage per round.

Strengths:
- You can dish out a heafty chunk of damage each round.

Weaknesses:
- Fairly inflexible build till 15th level
- Doesn't come into its own until level 18
- You're sort of a one-trick pony
- MAD

dspeyer
2009-10-12, 09:06 PM
I still don't buy the arcane disciple healer. The feat description says "Add the chosen domain's spells to your class list of arcane spells." Healer doesn't have a list of arcane spells -- only a list of divine spells that could potentially be alternate-sourced.

Also, you can only cast one domain spell per day per level. 9 non-healing spells isn't a lot. This is also a problem with adding domains via PrC dips.

sonofzeal
2009-10-12, 09:15 PM
I still don't buy the arcane disciple healer. The feat description says "Add the chosen domain's spells to your class list of arcane spells." Healer doesn't have a list of arcane spells -- only a list of divine spells that could potentially be alternate-sourced.

Also, you can only cast one domain spell per day per level. 9 non-healing spells isn't a lot. This is also a problem with adding domains via PrC dips.

It's... borderline legal, depends on the permissiveness of the DM. Good point about the 1/day/SL thing though.

Zaq
2009-10-12, 09:19 PM
I know we have a few Truenamers already, but I think that this is still an appropriate time to pimp the link in my sig. Sanden's currently in a party with a Sorcerer (who is intentionally restraining herself, optimization-wise, but who doesn't make any bad choices) and a Wilder (who is very much not restraining himself) and is still a valuable member of the party. He's also not fully optimized (I voluntarily and intentionally lost a caster level to Human Paragon, for example), but he's not boring or useless. He has a +10 custom item, but doesn't strictly speaking need it.

No, he's not a superb character, but he's an actual example of a Truenamer working. Sure, the results don't match the massive amount of effort I put into making him, but still...

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-12, 11:03 PM
I present, the God-Devoted Healer, who I'm pretty sure works now.

Any Good-Alignment Warmage 1/Fighter 1/Healer 18. Max Wisdom and have 10 Charisma, and otherwise select Clericzilla stats.

Feats:
Level 1: Any feat
Level 3: Alternative Source Spell (Dragon #325) - Lets you cast any of your divine spells as arcane spells or vice versa at -1 CL.
Level 6: Arcane Disciple: War (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#warDomain) (Correlon Larethian) - Lets you cast War domain spells as arcane spells on a spellcasting list of your choice that you can cast arcane spells with.
Level 9: Arcane Disciple: Protection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#protectionDomain)
Level 12: Arcane Disciple: Chaos (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#chaosDomain)
Level 15: Arcane Disciple: Good (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#goodDomain)

Equipment: Nonmetal heavy armor (such as dragonhide) and shield, ample wands of curative spells.

The Healer is a full caster with a heavily restricted spell list. So, I expanded the spell list! This healer has access to four domains worth of spells in addition to their standard list, including gems such as Divine Power. Unfortunately, you don't get 9'th level casting until level 19.

Dare I say, I think this character is competitive with Tier 3 classes. Sadly, I had to take a level in a Tier 4 class by level 3 to make it work by level 15 - abiding strictly by the 75% low-tier rule for each level would probably keep the build from filling out until level 18. If I could get an Arcane spell with a dip in any T5+ class (except Lightning Warrior, if ever there were a dip class that would give a build negative power, that would be it), I could make that restriction, but even the Hexblade is T4.

Optionally, pick a different Good deity (Ehlonna grants Animal/Good/Plant/Sun, for instance) and/or don't bother with the Fighter level, for a castier Healer. You could also dip Paladin instead of Fighter for armor proficiency.

The build functions by taking a level in Warmage and Healer to be able to cast both divine and arcane spells, then taking the Alternate Source Spell feat to gain Divine casting capability as a Warmage and Arcane casting capability as a Healer. Then, you use your Arcane casting capability as a Healer to take Arcane Diciple for a Good-aligned deity for the Healer casting progression. Now pursue Healer, and you're a full caster, minus one or two caster levels, with some prime spells to exploit that caster potential with.

Edit: While trying to find an arcane class of T5 or lower, I took a closer look at the thread's requirements, and sadly this build wouldn't qualify even if I found one, as it relies on a feat from Dragon magazine. :(

Problem: Dragon Mag is banned for this challenge, which is the entire basis of the legality of your build. Sorry.

Adept is a T5+ arcane class. It's in the DMG as an NPC class.

Mushroom Ninja: I will add it to the list of submissions.

I've always considered Truenamers would benefit hugely from a one-level dip in Exemplar. Being able to Take 10 on your skill check, and the +4 on your check, are well worth a one-level dip.

dspeyer
2009-10-13, 12:29 AM
Venerable Gnome
Healer 16 / Contemplative (Strength) 1 / Cleric 1 / Divine Oracle 1 / Sorcerer 1

Martial Study (White Raven Tactics)
Domain Spontaneity
Skill Focus (basketweaving)

Give all your WBL to your companion.

Sounds crazy?

Basically you play a Couatl (already a reasonably strong CR 10 / ECL 16 monster), with 20 wbl equipment and a little gnome on your back that spends every round healing, buffing or WRTing you. The gnome can share spells like true strike and righteous might. It can also use some powerful divination magic occasionally, and cast miracle four times a day. You co-ordinate with him telepathically.

OK, technically you play the gnome, and the couatl serves you willingly and unswervingly. Close enough.

Tavar
2009-10-13, 12:37 AM
How do you get a Couatl, though? If it's through leadership, well, that kinda falls under the fact that leadership is a really good feat, not that the healer is a good class.

sonofzeal
2009-10-13, 12:53 AM
Adept is a T5+ arcane class. It's in the DMG as an NPC class.
Common mistake; it's actually a divine class. I thought it was arcane myself for the longest time, but nope. I believe there's actually an outdated PrC, the *EDITED OUT BECAUSE I'M THINKING OF ENTERING IT*, that's only accessible by Adepts (or by Archivists who know one). It's been ages since I actually looked at the class though.

Kylarra
2009-10-13, 12:58 AM
How do you get a Couatl, though? If it's through leadership, well, that kinda falls under the fact that leadership is a really good feat, not that the healer is a good class.Healer companion. It's explicitly using one of the class's abilities. :smallsmile:

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-13, 01:46 AM
Common mistake; it's actually a divine class. I thought it was arcane myself for the longest time, but nope. I believe there's actually an outdated PrC, the *EDITED OUT BECAUSE I'M THINKING OF ENTERING IT*, that's only accessible by Adepts (or by Archivists who know one). It's been ages since I actually looked at the class though.

If it is the one that requires you to be able to cast Lightning Bolt as a Divine spell, I know of what you speak. It would be interesting to see if it can actually be done well...

dspeyer: That's not making a class useful, that's making a pet useful. While technically allowed, I don't see it winning many points.

Ernir
2009-10-13, 02:45 AM
Currently trying to hammer together some mid-level Samurais. At the moment it looks like I will end up with two separate characters, one Iaijutsu-based OA Samurai and a CW one who will smash things in a bit more traditional way. :smalltongue:

lord_khaine
2009-10-13, 03:48 AM
How was the rules regarding prestice classes?

Ernir
2009-10-13, 04:16 AM
How was the rules regarding prestice classes?

3/4 of your levels must be in tier 5 or lower base classes.

I somehow doubt that things like the Hulking Hurler would be appreciated, though...

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-13, 12:33 PM
3/4 of your levels must be in tier 5 or lower base classes.

I somehow doubt that things like the Hulking Hurler would be appreciated, though...

HH is on the 'known cheese' list which is banned.

Indon
2009-10-13, 03:11 PM
Adept is a T5+ arcane class. It's in the DMG as an NPC class.
Actually, as sonofzeal notes, while the Adept can have spells that would normally be considered Arcane, they are Divine casters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/adept.htm).


An adept casts divine spells which are drawn from the adept spell list (see below).

And if you'll note from my post, I had already noted the Dragon magazine ineligibility. I'm not giving up quite yet, though!

There has to be some way to exploit all those spell slots.


Venerable Gnome
Healer 16 / Contemplative (Strength) 1 / Cleric 1 / Divine Oracle 1 / Sorcerer 1

Unfortunately, you don't get the Couatl until you're far into the class.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-13, 03:31 PM
Actually, as sonofzeal notes, while the Adept can have spells that would normally be considered Arcane, they are Divine casters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/adept.htm).



And if you'll note from my post, I had already noted the Dragon magazine ineligibility. I'm not giving up quite yet, though!

There has to be some way to exploit all those spell slots. Reserve feats?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-13, 03:31 PM
Minor shape shift would be nice. Knowledge Devotion would be usable too.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-13, 04:11 PM
Minor shape shift would be nice. Knowledge Devotion would be usable too.

If one can add some kind of summoning spell to the spell list, one can also use the summon elemental reserve feat, which is kinda nifty, and a few of the elemental versions.

Find a way to get some kind of Teleport on the list and pick up the teleport-on-command one?

Evil the Cat
2009-10-13, 07:55 PM
I haven't done any of these challenges before, but I think I've got a good one here.

Paladin 5, Knight10, Sentinel of Bharrai 3, Warshaper 2

Feats and such


Str14, Dex10, Con16 (Increased at 12 and 16), Int14, Wis14, Cha 16 (Increased at 4 and 8)
Able Learner(H), Power Attack(1), Improved Bull Rush(F), Law Devotion(F), Sacred Vow(3), Extra Turning (B), Shock Trooper(6), Leap Attack(9), Improved Sunder(B), Vow of Obedience(12) , Strength Devotion(15), Travel Devotion (B), Combat Brute(B), Combat Reflexes(18)

Charging Smite Variant Paladin



The build is pretty basic at lower levels, it makes use of the shock trooper charge effects at low level. Eventually, the character uses polar bear as its primary form for a 31 str, 4d6 base claw damage from warshaper + strength devotion. This also increases dexterity to 13, allowing combat reflexes, which works well with the knight making the area into difficult terrain.

Paladin and Extra Turning makes sure I'll have plenty of uses of my devotion feats.

Travel devotion allows move and full attack. Able learner is in there to make sure I can meet all the skill requirements for Sentinel of Bharrai in time. The only thing I did that counts as kind of cheesy is retraining the knight bonus feats into good feats. In theory I could have done some fighter levels, but I was too amused by a Polar Bear in heavy armor, a'la Golden Compass, that I went with the Knight Levels.

I didn't do any equipment, but I would make the gear all tailored to bear form, since he can stay that way indefinitely.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-14, 10:30 AM
I haven't done any of these challenges before, but I think I've got a good one here.

Paladin 5, Knight10, Sentinel of Bharrai 3, Warshaper 2

Feats and such


Str14, Dex10, Con16 (Increased at 12 and 16), Int14, Wis14, Cha 16 (Increased at 4 and 8)
Able Learner(H), Power Attack(1), Improved Bull Rush(F), Law Devotion(F), Sacred Vow(3), Extra Turning (B), Shock Trooper(6), Leap Attack(9), Improved Sunder(B), Vow of Obedience(12) , Strength Devotion(15), Travel Devotion (B), Combat Brute(B), Combat Reflexes(18)

Charging Smite Variant Paladin



The build is pretty basic at lower levels, it makes use of the shock trooper charge effects at low level. Eventually, the character uses polar bear as its primary form for a 31 str, 4d6 base claw damage from warshaper + strength devotion. This also increases dexterity to 13, allowing combat reflexes, which works well with the knight making the area into difficult terrain.

Paladin and Extra Turning makes sure I'll have plenty of uses of my devotion feats.

Travel devotion allows move and full attack. Able learner is in there to make sure I can meet all the skill requirements for Sentinel of Bharrai in time. The only thing I did that counts as kind of cheesy is retraining the knight bonus feats into good feats. In theory I could have done some fighter levels, but I was too amused by a Polar Bear in heavy armor, a'la Golden Compass, that I went with the Knight Levels.

I didn't do any equipment, but I would make the gear all tailored to bear form, since he can stay that way indefinitely.

Where is Sentinel of Bharrai in, and how does it let you turn into a Polar Bear?

Kylarra
2009-10-14, 10:34 AM
Where is Sentinel of Bharrai in, and how does it let you turn into a Polar Bear?BoED, Bear Shape su ability that functions almost exactly like a polymorph.

Evil the Cat
2009-10-14, 11:33 AM
BoED

Bear Shape SU ability, at will become a brown bear, black bear or polar bear and back. Selected form's HD limited by character level. functions as polymorph except does not provoke AoO, may assume bear form and change back at will, and remain in bear form indefinitely. In bear form, can still speak normally and communicate with bears. :)


As an added note, I know it doesn't count overall, because its power is inherent in the skill and not the class, but I would keep max ranks CC in UMD until the sentinel levels, then since it's class for them, I'd max it as a class skill.

Person_Man
2009-10-14, 02:31 PM
Here is my first entry:

Asclepius the Healer

Healer 5/Divine Oracle 2/Sovereign Speaker X/Full Caster Progression PrC Y

or just

Healer 20


You start with the Healer. In general, it is regarded as one of the weakest classes in the game. It requires Good alignment, and provides 10/20 BAB, d8 hit die, 4 Skill Points per level from a mediocre list (but it includes Craft, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and Handle Animals - more on each later), simple weapons, light armor, and you are restricted to non-metal armor (this can be avoided by using armor made out of Iron Wood or Dragon Hide, and by entering a PrC that provides heavy armor proficiency). A lot of suck.

You also get memorized divine spells from a very short, very lousy list, with no offensive ability. You also have duel attribute dependency, with Wisdom determining what spells you can cast and bonus spells, but Charisma determining Save DCs. But interestingly enough, Healers have the best spell progression of any base class in the game. For example, at third level, a Healer gets five 0th level spells, four 1st level spells, and three 2nd level spells, plus bonus spells from Wis. Thatís one additional spell per level compared to a Cleric, including the Clericís domain spell.

You also get a bunch of minor, healing related abilities. You add your Cha bonus to any healing spells you cast. You get Skill Focus (Heal). You can remove certain status effects once per day as a Supernatural ability. Nothing noteworthy, except to say that it helps free up some of your spell slots.

So, your first goal is to survive and find some useful and interesting things to do until at ECL 6 or 8. This is actually easier then it looks.

1) Heal your friends: It goes without saying that you should be the primary source of healing to your friends and allies. This is helpful, as the healer in the party is usually the last person to die (as your friends will often go to great lengths to protect you, and it's quite easy for the Healer to heal themselves whenever needed).

2) Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and Calm Emotions (www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/calmEmotions.htm) (Healer 2): Roleplaying! As long as you're not a munchkin about it, your DM will love it, trust me. Trust me, there are a lot of combats that you don't need to fight, and a lot of NPCs who could potentially help you without taking a share of your party's loot. D&D is not a video game. Think creatively, and don't be a racist about trying to get the orcs who ambush you to turn on their cruel master by helping you in your quest.

3) Menagerie: Buy or use Speak with Animals (www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/speakWithAnimals.htm) (Healer 1) to get several dogs, mules, and other pets/friends to help you out. Train them with Handle Animal. They can carry every conceivable peice of gear you might need for you (always be prepared!), Track, perform guard duty, act as a highly effective spy network, and attack for you in combat. As a Wis/Cha based class, you're actually better at this then most Rangers and Druids. In fact, since you've often got nothing better to do then heal somebody every round, they'll probably have a higher life expectancy then most Animal Companions. Plus you don't face any negative consequences if they die.

4) Nets, Longspear, and spiked gauntlets: This is a simple, powerful, and overlooked low level tactic available to most builds. Throw a net on an enemy (touch attack - don't even bother with proficiency). He's debuffed. If he wasn't already within your threatened area, move so that he is. Train your animal friends to surround and Trip/Grapple/attack anyone you throw a net on. If your enemy attempts to free themselves from the net, then everyone who threatens them gets an attack of opportunity against them. If they don't, then do what you can to repeatedly load on Dexterity damage/penalties (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6342523&postcount=23), such as more nets, razor nets, lasso, etc. When they get to 0 Dex, you can Coup de Grace them.

5) Sanctuary (www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Sanctuary.htm) (Healer 1): Most of the fighting will be done for you by animals and other party members. So you're probably going to be spending half of combat either directing your pets or healing someone. And that's fine - you are a Healer after all. This spell makes it somewhat difficult for enemies to attack you while you're doing your thing.

6) Poison: Poison can be highly effective (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0) at low levels. In particular, according to Drow of the Underdark it's a DC 15 Handle Animal check to convince a vermin with the Bestow Venom trick to give enough poison for a single dose, and then a DC 15 Craft check to distill that material into a usable poison (you should be able to make both by at 1st or 2nd level by Taking 10 on your checks). Remember all those pets you have? Make sure that some of them are poisonous. Use your social Skills to slip digestive poisons into your enemy's meals. Apply injury poisons to your razor nets and/or crossbow bolts, and store them for when you need them. Worried about the 5% chance of accidentally poisoning yourself? Don't, because you can Neutralize Poison as a supernatural ability and cast it as a spell. So at 3rd level you're actually quite a good assassin. And fluff wise, doctors and mythic god Asclepius have long been associated with snakes and poisons. There's also a wide range of poison related feats, and depending on your ECL, you might want to pick up a couple to help optimize this. The only real impediment is that by RAW, using Poison is an Evil act and Healers must be Good. But unlike Monks, Barbarians, Paladins, etc, there is no down negative side effect to the Healer if they change alignments. The Book of Exhalted Deeds also includes "ravages" which are essentially poisons which Good people can use (ie, a rules cop out). So talk to your DM, and figure out what works for you.

7) Undead slaying: It goes without saying that the plethora of healing spells that you have can also be used to harm undead quite efficiently. So if you're in a undead heavy campaign, you need not rely on tricks to be useful in combat.


So, let's assume that you've made it to ECL 6. You now have a big choice to make. Do you want lots of different spells on your spell list, or do you want to continue as a Healer?

If you've chosen the lots of spells options, then this is where things start to get awesome. The Divine Oracle PrC grants you the Oracle domain, which adds spells to your spell list. You also get an Evasion ability that works in any armor, plus full caster progression. Spiffy.

Next you should head into the Sovereign Speaker (Faiths of Eberron pg 32) PrC, which requires that you worship the Sovereign Host, Weapon Focus, and access to at least one domain. It grants 7/9 divine caster progression (missing the 1st and the 6th levels) and a bonus domain every level (with certain restrictions based on the Eberron gods' portfolio's), plus a few bonus domain slots. This vastly increases the spells that you can choose from, and grants a metric ton of domain powers.

In addition or as an alternative to Divine Oracle -> Sovereign Speaker, you should consider the Deadgrim, Hathran, Seeker of the Misty Isle, Church Inquisitor, Justice Hammer of Moradin, and Warpriest. Each PrC adds spells to your spell list in some way.

The larger point is that once you can enter PrC, the Healer gains a lot of power, while retaining it's awesome spell progression.

But what if you are willing to continue as a Healer until at least level 8? Well then, I have a treat for you. At 8th level, the Healer gets a Celestial Unicorn. In addition to the nifty Celestial (www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/celestialCreature.htm) template (Darkvision, DR, Energy Resistance, Spell Resistance), the Unicorn (www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/unicorn.htm) gets some excellent natural special abilities (Magic Circle Against Evil, Scent, Immunities, Wild Empathy, a few spell-like abilities) and a host of Animal Companion special abilities right off the bat (Improved Evasion, Shared Saving Throws, and Shared Spells). As you gain Healer levels, the Unicorn gains new abilities, HD, Str/Dex/Int, etc., similar to a normal Animal Companion. Or you can pick better companions: Lammasu, Gynosphinx, or Water Naga at 12th level. Or an Androsphinx or Couatl at 16th level.

This companion replaces the attack functions of your menagerie, and is the basis for any strait Healer build. Essentially, the Celestial Unicorn is a second PC who fights for you. The Magic Circle Against Evil protects you from Summoned enemies and mental control. Wild Empathy and the Unicorn's naturally high Cha (24!) and the Unicorn's +6 racial bonus to the check allows you to befriend Animals and unintelligent Magical Beasts. It's competent in melee, and since it gains HD, it also gains feats which you can use to improve it's build. But most importantly, as I already mentioned it can Share Spells. So your your Healer can ride it into combat wielding a longspear (simple weapon), and whenever either of you gets damaged or debuffed, can spend your turn healing both of you, while your Celestial Unicorn continues to fight. At higher levels be sure to swap it out for more powerful creatures. And be sure to look into feats that improve Companions.

And there you go. A playable, versatile, somewhat fun Healer build.

Indon
2009-10-14, 02:40 PM
Do any of those domains add to your base spell list? You imply Oracle does, I just want confirmation.

Ragven
2009-10-18, 01:22 AM
Off the top of my head...

Kung-fu kid
Lesser Aasimar
Expert 10/ Iajutsu master 5
Class skills are Iajutsu focus, sleight of hand, some sort of party face skill, some knowledges, and use magic device.
Feats are
1:Improved initiative
3:Item familiar
6: Quick draw
9: Weapon focus: katana
12: Iajutsu master (the feat)
14: Some feat from the list. Since there isn't the typical "you must normally qualify for the feat" text, pick up spring attack or whirlwind attack.
15: knowledge devotion
With a weapon of legacy item familiar focus katana, that's a ridiculous iajutsu focus bonus, and since he can swift action grease anyone next to him, opponents are always flatfooted. Quick draw and sleight of hand ensure that you can always draw a weapon - since it's a free action, draw a dagger and drop it between each iterative. That's 9d6 plus nine times charisma to damage on each attack.

Having an item of legacy gives flexibility. Iajutsu master gives you a +60 or something to any skill check, attack roll, or save once per day.
(18 ranks, 18 item familiar, +10 from weapon of legacy, +4 focus weapon, +2 masterwork sheath, +charisma mod, +4 circlet of charisma + misc).

Honestly, it would be better to take more levels of iajutsu master, but to fit the challenge more levels of expert work, and they aren't completely wasted.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-18, 01:29 AM
Keep in mind, people, that this is supposed to showcase the sub-par classes, not showcase how certain combinations can be used even with sub-par classes.

As a rule of thumb, if your character cannot do something without levels in something other than the Tier 5+ classes in the build, then it's not really making the sub-par classes powerful, simply being powerful despite having some weak classes to build it on.

Ragven
2009-10-18, 01:58 AM
Having iajutsu focus as a possible class skill is very uncommon.

Losing that drops the iajutsu focus check significantly.

dspeyer
2009-10-19, 08:36 PM
Do any of those domains add to your base spell list? You imply Oracle does, I just want confirmation.

Not the base list. Domain spells are treated seperately. You can prepare and cast them normally, but only one domain spell per level. If you have 10 domains, you simply cannot use them all in any one day. It make domain addition less useful.

You can work around this by taking the domain spontaneity feat, but it's a separate feat for each domain and is limited by your turn undead (which healers don't have).

Realms of Chaos
2009-10-20, 05:21 AM
What is the tier seven lightning warrior people have mentioned. I've never heard about any base class with that name?

Can someone give a source, or better, a link?

Sliver
2009-10-20, 05:37 AM
What is the tier seven lightning warrior people have mentioned. I've never heard about any base class with that name?

Can someone give a source, or better, a link?

Just.. :smallfurious:

Wizard casting, no spellbook, good BAB, d20 for HD IIRC all good saves and more stuff, just google magic..

The joke is that he doesn't get a familiar and some other things, like specialization, so it is a weak and unplayable class..
I think there was a thread started here just a week ago, along with Pun-Pun..

If I get ninja'd by someone making a LW joke.. Edit: No ninja!

The Gilded Duke
2009-10-20, 11:09 AM
Loots the Living
Human Monk 20

Stats:

Str 10 +6 Item
Dex 18 +5 Level, +5 Tome, +6 Item (+12 mod)
Con 10 +6 Item
Int 14 +6 Item
Wis 14 +6 Item
Cha 8 +6 Item


Feats:

1st: Criminal Background (Slight of Hand Class Skill)
Human: Iron Will
3rd: Weapon Finesse
6th: Master Pickpocket
9th: Darkstalker
12th: Run
15th: Skill Focus Slight of Hand
18th: Hardened Criminal (Take 10 slight of hand)


Monk Feats:

1st: Improved Grapple
2nd: Deflect Arrows
6th: Improved Disarm


Skills:

Max out Slight of Hand, Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, other skill points are free to do as you wish.
Slight of hand should be 23 + 12 Dex, + 3 Skill Focus, +10 Custom skill item, +2 MW Tool for a total check of 50 and you can take 10.

Hide and move silently should be 23 +12, can get armor enhancements and custom skill items and mw tools to raise it up. Also Darkstalker. Also pick up a constant active collar of umbral metamorphosis to get more dex and hide in plain sight.


What do you do with this?
You don't wait for the target to die to start looting them.
With master pickpocket, and your Slight of Hand score you can steal items as large as a weapon one size category larger then yourself as a free action without taking an attack of opportunity. Or wands, or spell component pouches, or quivers.

You can't pickpocket things that are held in the hand, however you can disarm them and take them a way. While disarming a melee weapon can be hard, non-weapons have a penalty in a disarm check so you can take away any held wands or holy symbols pretty easily.

After you finish stealing or disarming things hide. Who needs to actually kill things?

Also the point of the monk class levels is to be really good at getting away.

Evilfeeds
2009-10-20, 12:12 PM
Frank. (inspired by Fred the Diplomancer)
Half elf, Aristocrat 20.

Most of the character doesnt matter, but I'll try sum up the important parts:

Half elf: +2
Charisma 22: +6

23 Ranks in Diplomacy: +23
Bluff, Sense Motive, Knowledge: Nobility Synergy bonuses: +6
Speak languages: not required, just useful.

Skill focus: diplomacy : +3
Nymphs Kiss: +2
Negotiator: +2
Complemantary insight: +3
sacred vow: +2
vow of peace: +4
Sociable Personality: allows reroll

Thats +52 to all diplomacy checks, plus a reroll. And not including magic items. Thats enough to turn every intelligent hostile monster friendly. I threw this together in about 10 minutes, im sure someone else could hit a lot higher if they tried, but higher isn't really necessary - the worst possible roll still returns a success.

Of course, this does somewhat rely more on the fact that the rules for diplomacy are crappy, rather than any truely unique power in the character.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2009-10-20, 12:19 PM
That lightning warrior class is just a quick and lazy homebrew. All the comments on it say the same thing: 'Over Powered'. The first post really shouldn't even mention it.

I'd play that class (if the DM were stupid enough to allow it). Perhaps 100hp at level 5 without a con bonus? Yes please. How about some ghestalt :smallsigh:

tyckspoon
2009-10-20, 12:32 PM
Frank. (inspired by Fred the Diplomancer)
Half elf, Aristocrat 20.

Of course, this does somewhat rely more on the fact that the rules for diplomacy are crappy, rather than any truely unique power in the character.

Right. Fails two checks- known cheese and doesn't really make use of the class you chose. 'course, it's almost impossible to do something that really highlights a special Aristocrat feature.

Eldariel
2009-10-20, 12:51 PM
Right. Fails two checks- known cheese and doesn't really make use of the class you chose. 'course, it's almost impossible to do something that really highlights a special Aristocrat feature.

Actually, Aristocrats have by far the highest starting gold. So there's something. Of course, it's not relevant beyond the first few levels, so meh.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-20, 01:23 PM
That lightning warrior class is just a quick and lazy homebrew. All the comments on it say the same thing: 'Over Powered'. The first post really shouldn't even mention it.

I'd play that class (if the DM were stupid enough to allow it). Perhaps 100hp at level 5 without a con bonus? Yes please. How about some ghestalt :smallsigh:

You have failed your Detect Running Joke check and your Sense Humor check. Take 25 SAN damage.

minchazo
2009-10-21, 11:11 AM
Let me try one... What does the fighter get? Feats!

Race: Halfling
Stats: Str 13 Dex 18 Con 14 Wis 10 Int 14 Cha 8
Fighter 15/Master Thrower 5 (2 flaws)

Fighter 1: Point Blank Shot, Brutal Throw, EWP: Skiprock, Weapon Focus(Skiprock)
Fighter 2: Precise Shot
Fighter 3: Power Attack
Fighter 4: Power Throw
Fighter 5:
Master Thrower 1: Rapid Shot, Trip Shot
Master Thrower 2: Palm Throw
Master Thrower 3: Defensive Throw
Master Thrower 4: Far Shot, Deadeye Shot
Master Thrower 5: Weak Spot
Fighter 6: Improved Precise Shot
Fighter 7: Two Weapon Fighting
Fighter 8: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Fighter 9:
Fighter 10: Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Specailization (Skiprock)
Fighter 11:
Fighter 12: Ranged Weapon Mastery (Bludgeon)
Fighter 13: Underfoot Combat
Fighter 14: Confound the Big Folk
Fighter 15:

Our friend here gets 18 attacks: (4 BAB, +3 TWF, +2 Rapid Shot [one each hand])*2 with Palm Throw



Master Thrower's "Weak Spot" lets him make ranged touch attacks.
Using Power Throw, he can add his BAB to damage on each attack.
Improved Precise Shot ignores partial concealment.
GMW would give him 50 magic skiprocks at a time.
Defensive Throw lets him throw in melee without generating AoO
Free trip on every attack
Confound the big folk gives him options in melee combat.
Range on Skiprock is (15 + 20 Ranged Mastery)*2 Far Shot = 70'

And he wouldn't lose anything by casting Reduce Person on him.

Ragven
2009-11-12, 12:14 AM
Actually, Aristocrats have by far the highest starting gold. So there's something. Of course, it's not relevant beyond the first few levels, so meh.
Apparently there's also an aristocrat-only feat that gives you npc WBL every month...

SocratesOnFire
2010-07-27, 10:37 PM
Bubs, Venerable Strongheart Halfling Commoner3/Marshal1


...

If you guessed that I was going to roll out a 36 HD dinosaur, you're on the money. Meet the Battletitan (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mmiii_gallery/82982.jpg). At the low end of CR 16, it's not going to be soloing the Tarrasque any time soon. But with AC 35, four natural attacks that are not going to miss, legendary hp, impressive saves, a Str score better than a Storm Giant, Improved Grab, and a buttload of feats to customize with... yeah, you'll be travelling in style. And for all your effort, you get three of these.

At level four.


Actually, I don't see how your character is getting three baby Battle Titans, is he supposed to be finding or buying them? Rearing a wild animal is "to raise a wild creature from infancy so that it becomes domesticated."

sonofzeal
2010-07-28, 01:19 AM
Actually, I don't see how your character is getting three baby Battle Titans, is he supposed to be finding or buying them? Rearing a wild animal is "to raise a wild creature from infancy so that it becomes domesticated."
By being a mere lvl 4, he can likely severely undercut anyone else applying for the job of "Battle Titan Trainer", and work for some local principality on a stipend. That, or he spent his 100+ years of pre-venerable life finding them as part of his backstory.


....what? It's not like that's the most contrived backstory you've heard on a TO build. All we care about is that it's legal, and that it's amusing. No semblance of logic or verisimilitude is required.

JaronK
2010-07-28, 01:31 AM
Half Minotaur Human Commoner 1/Overwhelming Assault Monk 2/CW Samurai 10/Fighter 2/Marshal 2

Flaws: Infested with Chickens, Tasty
Feats: Skill Focus: Intimidate, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Mounted Combat, Ride By Attack, Shock Trooper, Spirited Charge, Imperious Command... um, some other stuff.
Skill Trick: Never Outnumbered

Due to the Tasty flaw, monsters always try to attack you first, thus allowing you to tank a bit better. Ride a huge mount of your choice (preferably flying) and charge people with a lance for massive damage. Pump Str, Con, and Charisma, so you can also Intimidate people to Cowering (an AoE effect once per encounter). You can add your charisma bonus to the charisma skills of your party, so also have a decent Diplomacy. The combination means you can use fear and high damage to help with most encounters. You can also summon swarms of chickens on command... hey, why not? And you're solid in social situations.

When you can't use your mount, switch to a Glaive and just trip people a lot while hitting them for high damage, and occasionally use fear on them.

JaronK

WinWin
2010-07-28, 03:25 AM
Ninja 15/Master Thrower 5. Stealthy shot + double toss + sudden strike + alchemical items. High craft skills, tumble, stealth, perception etc. Racial spellcasting in order to craft own alchemy gear. Post more details later.

Draz74
2010-07-28, 12:20 PM
Draz has submitted Sir Cadrus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7095834&postcount=34) but Karoti is a web-source, and thus not allowed, and it seems to be more about gear than about the class. I also don't see how he can qualify for Travel Devotion without the Travel Domain.

Huh, I never saw this discussion of my build back when this thread was new.

Dropping Kaorti from the build doesn't hurt too badly. If it's banned, though (which any sane DM should do), Sir Cadrus might want to skip the Elven Courtblade and just fight with a Falchion. Saves him a feat.

"More about gear than about the class" -- well, I think that's true of any high-level optimized character that's not a full caster, sadly. At least, when I build high-level characters I spend most of my time sorting through equipment choices. In this case, however, it seems like a silly accusation, since almost all of the equipment I listed has specific synergies with Paladin class abilities.

His weapon is chosen to synergize with the Bless Weapon spell, the Smite Evil ability, and the Power Attack and Improved Critical feats.
Nightsticks are there to augment the Paladin Turn Undead ability.
Pearls of Power are there to enhance Paladin Spellcasting (especially Bless Weapon).
Caduceus Bracers ... well, Paladin is one of the few classes that can use this item at all.
Tome of Battle items ... well, I admit, other than having Concentration as a class skill, these are mostly there just because any non-Tome of Battle melee character should get them.


Re: Travel Devotion: I don't have Complete Champion, so it's possible that I've missed something in the rules about Devotion feats. But I'm quite positive I've seen numerous builds with Knowledge Devotion that lack the Knowledge Domain. So I don't think having a domain is required for taking a corresponding Devotion feat ... it just lets you get the feat for free if you trade it in. Sir Cadrus pays the full normal price for his Devotion feat.

Overall, the build is simply meant to be an extremely effective crit-fisher. It has full BAB and an easy way to both move and make a full attack in the same turn; it threatens a critical hit on a roll of 15-20 and auto-confirms critical threats against evil foes (since it has the means to cast Bless Weapon as a swift action at the beginning of every combat); and it has a lot of bonus damage that will be multiplied on a critical (Smite Evil, Power Attack with a two-handed weapon, and the fact that it can sometimes make attacks as touch attacks in order to Power Attack a lot more).

Besides that, it's a pretty awesome healer too. Laying on Hands + Caduceus Bracers will fill a lot of your healer needs; the Healing Spirit ACF will pick up the slack when that isn't enough (including eventually being able to bring back dead party members); and Paladin Spellcasting in general helps too.

EDIT: Also, on someone else's build:


The only problem is that he doesn't have any levels of Rogue to qualify for Daring Outlaw (no, Assassin's Stance doesn't let you qualify),

Why the heck not? Read the prerequisites for Daring Outlaw. They say nothing about Rogue levels, just Sneak Attack +2d6. Which Assassin's Stance gives you.

Human Paragon 3
2010-07-28, 12:39 PM
I'd like to enter my (skill) Monkey King (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-16448%20%3C/index.php?t-107911.html) build. Not the BEST skill monkey, not the BEST melee character, but I have played him at lower levels and he works beautifully. I imagine that with the alter self cheese coming from the tattoo he only gets better with age. His damage output is always respectable thanks to decisive strike, knoweldge devotion and extra damage from factotum.

Note that white mask tattoo should be subbed out for Chameleon tattoo, which is just stronger.

I have come to believe that more factotum levels would be superior to the thief acrobat and swashbuckler levels, but I am not sure if it actually fits your requirements that way.

Roland St. Jude
2010-07-28, 08:20 PM
Sheriff: Thread Necromancy.