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Bookworm702
2009-10-10, 05:05 PM
I know there are rules for guns in Dragon Magazine, but I know I saw rules for guns in a sourcebook somewhere. There were rules for modern guns and laser guns as well. Could someone help me out and tell me which one?

Elfin
2009-10-10, 05:07 PM
They're in the DMG, Chapter 5. Right before the section on cosmology.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-10, 05:18 PM
Note: The Dragon magazine rules for Guns isn't exactly playable. The costs and penalties associated with it counteract any benefits you would gain over a Crossbow or normal ranged weapon.

Keep the cost for ammunition just slightly above the price for arrows or bolts, but below 1gp for X shots (where X is less than 5). Also, do not enforce realism behind these guns (jamming, backfire, stuff like that) unless it is a mechanical benefit associated with a feat or prestige class.

Guns should be about as viable as Crossbows, otherwise smart players won't use them (and the other players won't realize that they are getting cheated). The DMG gun rules are fairly unbalanced at a glance, but all you need to realize is that they aren't getting a stat or similar benefits to damage, and there isn't support to improve the damage further than that (aside from stuff like Powerful Build).

Bookworm702
2009-10-10, 05:19 PM
*checks and facepalms* Thanks. Ill just go bury my head in the sand now.

Domigorgon
2009-10-10, 06:30 PM
Time for some homebrewing? :)

Inhuman Bot
2009-10-10, 06:55 PM
The Iron Kingdom books by Privateer press have much better gun rules, in my humble opinion, but sadly, the Iron Kingdom books are out of print.

I focused more on machinery, but IIRC, rifles and pistols had each needed proficency, and guns had 1 shot in them, with a few exceptions. Guns needed a few rounds to reload, like 3 for a Blunderbuss, or 2 for a millitary rifle.

Rixx
2009-10-10, 07:04 PM
d20 Modern / d20 Past should have serviceable guns to use, as well.

Dixieboy
2009-10-10, 07:10 PM
The Iron Kingdom books by Privateer press have much better gun rules, in my humble opinion, but sadly, the Iron Kingdom books are out of print.

Not by much.

Ranks in craft are neccasary to reload, feats to use it somewhat effectively, the cost is enourmus and the damage is meh.

Ostien
2009-10-10, 07:20 PM
I'm making some rules for guns in a setting I'm doing. I don't like the DMG rules as far as proficiencies and time to reload. These are not my final rules just some thoughts. :smallsmile:

Going to have one firearm that is a simple weapon. It will be a single shot small pistol that does 1d8, with a range of 30 feet. The reload would be a full round action.
weapons.

The rest of the guns would be martial. Thought about making them exotic to make them meet the repeating crossbows but decided against it for various reasons. The repeating crossbow is still much better, and I think its exotic because it is unwieldy to fire (crank) and take specific practice. Guns take time to learn to reload properly but the use of them is not as complicated.

Then a flintlock pistol at 1d10, reload time also full round action. Range 50 feet.

The arquebus (predecessor to the musket) will do 1d12 but take a minute to reload (I'm a stickler for accuracy). Range 100ft (longbow range). But this can have a bayonet which could be of two sizes one as a short spear one as a normal spear. A arquebus is a long range weapon so having it be a minute to reload is fine imo.

Then a musket, which is the same as the arquebus but a longer range, 150ft. The main difference is cost and availability. arquebuses are more common and cheaper, where as muskets are newer technology.

A blunderbuss which will do 2d6 but only has a range of 30 feet. A full round action to reload.

You can take a rapid reload with these guns but it goes from full round to a standard. For the musket rapid reload makes the reload 30 seconds. And for sake of simplicity I'll allow people to just take rapid reload firearm.

Guns are fairly common in my setting so most people are familiar with them, but they really cannot be ones primary weapon. A pirate will have a single shot pistol probably but carry a sword. A dwarf may have a blunderbuss but have a trusty ax. I'm still allowing for faster then should be reload time for most of the guns. The ranges are fine as this is for hitting a specific target. I mean a longbow or a gun can have a range of 120 meters but thats for fireing into a mass of people wearing red coats :smallwink:. So guns have good points (more damage) but are poor on reloading time. And bows and guns have about the same range for simplicity sake. Guns are ideal backup weapons and just give the setting a nice flavor.

I haven't started this game yet so i may change the rules a bit, but thought I'd post some ideas here so people can adopt them, alter them, or criticize them :smallbiggrin:

imp_fireball
2009-10-10, 07:47 PM
One thing d20 Modern completely forgets is that different automatic weapons fire faster than others (usually this just means more damage though). It also excludes how drastic of a difference the right piece of technology can make on the battlefield (or how a robot with a targeting system might behave as opposed to a soldier).

Say you want to have your campaign in a world where there is no magic, and technology and tactics makes all the difference?

Arbitrarity
2009-10-10, 08:21 PM
Going to have one firearm that is a simple weapon. It will be a single shot small pistol that does 1d8, with a range of 30 feet. The reload would be a full round action.

The rest of the guns would be martial. Thought about making them exotic to make them meet the repeating crossbows but decided against it for various reasons. The repeating crossbow is still much better, and I think its exotic because it is unwieldy to fire (crank) and take specific practice. Guns take time to learn to reload properly but the use of them is not as complicated.

Then a flintlock pistol at 1d10, reload time also full round action. Range 50 feet.

The arquebus (predecessor to the musket) will do 1d12 but take a minute to reload (I'm a stickler for accuracy). Range 100ft (longbow range). But this can have a bayonet which could be of two sizes one as a short spear one as a normal spear. A arquebus is a long range weapon so having it be a minute to reload is fine imo.

Then a musket, which is the same as the arquebus but a longer range, 150ft. The main difference is cost and availability. arquebuses are more common and cheaper, where as muskets are newer technology.

A blunderbuss which will do 2d6 but only has a range of 30 feet. A full round action to reload.

You can take a rapid reload with these guns but it goes from full round to a standard. For the musket rapid reload makes the reload 30 seconds. And for sake of simplicity I'll allow people to just take rapid reload firearm.


So... you should use a composite longbow. Same proficiency, no reload time, close to the same damage, if not higher with strength. A single point of average damage really doesn't make up for losing a turn reloading, nor does it make up for having a single attack every fight at ranged.

Ostien
2009-10-10, 08:25 PM
yeah but it's for flavor mostly.

Arbitrarity
2009-10-10, 08:38 PM
True. Flavor for the setting, not PC's, correct? Anyways, if I wanted players to use those, I'd pump the damage considerably, maybe give some sort of side benefit, like smoke (concealment!) or fear (or both), and maybe add "experimental technology" available at higher cost, such as multiple barrels (according to wikipedia, this actually happened. Dunno about accuracy), breech loading weapons (Ferguson Rifle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_rifle)), rifling, etc.

Ostien
2009-10-10, 08:54 PM
Well flavor for the setting, but not like I'll disallow PCs from getting them. Though I may take your advice and up the damage. The thing is these are for the base weapons used by the military so its not like they are that fancy.

Though another idea is keeping the damage the same but allowing enchantments such as quick loading to speed up the reload. So you could have rapid reload and a +1 enchantment, quick loading. Not sure how I'd formulate the time for reload with rapid reload and the quick loading enchantment. Probably should just have the rules for rapid reload so a weapon that takes a full round goes to a move. So the feat and the enchantment would make a blunderbuss a free action to reload. Still formulating the rules, even though it may not come up that much.

Also there are more higher tech weapons as my setting is dominated by gnomes so there are Gatling guns and large cannons and such. Cause thats just cool.

Arbitrarity
2009-10-10, 08:57 PM
Nice. Yeah, as a stock military weapon, not for PC's, they aren't bad. They just aren't particularly effective :smallbiggrin:

Just as long as there are options for the PC's to get better than stock weapons, to help if they want to actually use guns.

Ostien
2009-10-10, 09:07 PM
yeah I mean the basic properties may kinda suck (full round action to a minute to reload). But magic can make them awesome weapons. Does anyone know where I can find the quick reload weapon enchantment. I think the fluff was it creates a pocket dimension with bolts for a crossbow and makes reloading a free action. I may allow that for guns but not auto have it a free action as it may only materialize the bullet itself not the black powder.

I mean how awesome would it be a PC with a blunderbuss with rapid reload (move action) and then an enchantment making it a free action. I guess a blunderbuss with just the enchantment and no feat would make it a move action so both take it down two, but they stack.

I'll probably end up changing the musket type reload time from the more historical accurate one minute to something more manageable. But it should still be more then the others.

jiriku
2009-10-10, 09:12 PM
For improved effectiveness, make them ranged touch attacks to hit. Guns did, after all, make armor obsolete.

Arbitrarity
2009-10-10, 09:14 PM
You can reload a musket in 20 seconds, if you're ridiculously trained. But that's still like 6 rounds without rapid reload.

Quickloading is MIC 41-42, +1 equivalent, reduces reload time to move action, and has a clip of 100 bolts (for crossbow)
Self-loading is A&E guide (3.0. Page 116), 10000 gp, improves reload time 1 step.

Also, lesser crystals of returning (300 gp, let you quickdraw whatever weapon they are attached to) are stylish for single shot weapons.

Ranged touch attacks would pretty much make guns ridiculously good. I'm not sure if it's quite overpowered, given those rules, but it seems a tad too potent. Maybe a bit of armor negation or something.

Ostien
2009-10-10, 09:16 PM
For improved effectiveness, make them ranged touch attacks to hit. Guns did, after all, make armor obsolete.

They did to a point, but I catch your drift. We are working in a fantasy setting and mechanics don't have to be 1 to 1 realistic. Making them ranged touch attacks would definitely make them more effective. If I do that I would have to not make them also able to be reloaded as fast.

Perhaps ranged touch and allow the rapid reload feat but make it only one category down and the enchantment also one category down, so the fastest for a normal full round would be a move action. That would be an idea..


Quickloading is MIC 41-42, +1 equivalent, reduces reload time to move action, and has a clip of 100 bolts (for crossbow)
Self-loading is A&E guide (3.0. Page 116), 10000 gp, improves reload time 1 step.

thanks! I'll check those out.


You can reload a musket in 20 seconds, if you're ridiculously trained. But that's still like 6 rounds without rapid reload.

yeah and adventurers are supposed to be exceptions so perhaps making it mechanically for PCs 6 rounds would be a starting point. But that is still long. humm.. [edit thats actually more like 3 rounds if a round is six seconds and everything is happening at once]


Ranged touch attacks would pretty much make guns ridiculously good. I'm not sure if it's quite overpowered, given those rules, but it seems a tad too potent. Maybe a bit of armor negation or something.
it does make them ridiculously good and I'm as hesitant as you of saying whether that is overpowered.

EDIT:

Don't like the idea of ranged touch on second thought as armor is still going to have effects, especially plate.

But I think I've come up with a decent homebrew:

So for the rapid reload feat takes the reload time down two categories, a category being defined as move > standard > full round and after that a full round is each one step. So for a PC proficient with a musket it takes 3 rounds but the feat makes it one round.

Then a homebrew enchantment which takes it down one additional step. The fluff for the enchantment being it materializes the ammunition but not the powder.

I mean this does make the musket rather useless for PCs to specialize in but it is a infantry weapon used at a distance so not good for small close encounters.

NoldorForce
2009-10-10, 10:22 PM
Monte Cook had made some rules for firearms as a web enhancement for Chaositech. I've not read the original Chaositech, but the web enhancement (http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?arch_stuff62) is nifty. Additionally, someone called Lord Nightbringer had made a Gunmage (http://diamondthrone.com/displaycontent.cfm?iConID=268) base class for the use of firearms (check the bottom for conversion) along with some generalized feats and minor weapon enhancements (http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~rismith/Archive/Evolved/content/firearms.html).

Essentially...firearms should function roughly on par with the rest of the ranged weapons out there, sort of like crossbows on the side of increased damage/increased reload time/increased proficiency requirements. Throw accuracy out the window; it's already been tossed for several other things in the same category (spiked chains, crossbow reloading times, more than half the whole armor section). D&D in general makes a butchery of accuracy for the sort of fun if you look close enough, really. Don't make them ranged touch attacks - as the web enhancement notes, arrows (and some crossbow bolts) were almost as deadly as bullets. In fact, the big draws of firearms in the early days were the greatly reduced training time and nonexistent requirements on strength. Not only had the English longbow already run circles around armor, but military (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Grande_Armee#Heavy_cavalry) regiments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuirassier) would still employ it to a limited degree in firearm-heavy battles.

I'd suggest that you start at a reload time of a full-round action (like a heavy crossbow) AND (in return for slightly increased damage) require some sort of Exotic Weapon Proficiency. As given in Lord Nightbringer's thing, breech-loading or Firearms Rapid Reload (ignore the truename bit, it's a setting things) bring it down to a move action. Combining them would bring it to a free action.

ericgrau
2009-10-10, 10:25 PM
Give it a slow firing time and make it a touch attack to hit. Balance the speed and damage to make it situationally useful but not always better nor worse than other weapons. Okay, you're done.

Historically the bow was better than guns against unarmored opponents, btw. It's the touch attack that made it nice. The other advantage was that guns were easy to use, just like crossbows. So make them simple weapons and thus balance them with other simple weapons not martial. Also beware of rogues using guns for touch attack sneak attacks; balance the speed with this in mind.

vrellum
2009-10-10, 10:30 PM
If you're a stickler for reality why aren't they simple weapons. The whole idea behind them was they were easy to use. And the whole reason longbows fell out of favor before the mid 1800s was they were very hard to use. All handheld firearms should be simple weapons.

Ostien
2009-10-10, 10:43 PM
I still don't like the idea of making them ranged touch attacks because bullets are still impacted by armor, even D&D style armor. Because:

as the web enhancement notes, arrows (and some crossbow bolts) were almost as deadly as bullets.
is quite true. Even modern non armor piercing bullets would be somewhat affected and we're talking about crude led projectiles.

Though making them all simple weapons is probably a good way to go about the proficiencies.

I still like the rapid reload bringing it down two notches then a +1 enchantment brining it down an additional notch and perhaps bite the bullet and make muskets a full round normally. :smallwink:

Yahzi
2009-10-10, 11:55 PM
The ranges are fine as this is for hitting a specific target.
Unrifled weapons are interesting, in that the effective range at which they can kill someone is vastly larger than the range at which they can reliably hit a man-sized target.

I would suggest:


All guns take 1 minute to reload.
All long guns are simple; all hand guns are martial.
Guns use Ranged Touch Attacks, but have -4 per range increment, and the range is fixed at 50 ft for long guns and 20 ft for handguns.



Guns are ideal backup weapons and just give the setting a nice flavor.
The thing most people miss about guns is that they are easily scalable. Making a super crossbow that does twice as much damage as a heavy crossbow is quite likely impossible; or the result is something like a ballista. The weight/strength ratio of the materials available just don't allow for it.

On the other hand, making a super musket that does twice as much damage as musket is positively trivial. Simply increase the bore, barrel thickness, and amount of powder.

In the real world this isn't terribly important. A half-inch bullet will kill any man, through any metal armor, at any range that you could actually hope to hit him without telescopic sights. So there's no point in making bigger guns, until you start using them to hunt vehicles.

But in D&D, some people and monsters have buckets of hit dice. This means people are going to make guns that do buckets of damage dice. Carrying a small cannon around is worth it when you're fighting a dragon - just as carrying a bazooka around is worth it when you're fighting tanks.

Unless your NPCs/PCs are retarded, they're going to defend themselves against monsters and high-level characters with artillery.

Which, btw, was invented long before hand guns were.

mabriss lethe
2009-10-11, 02:12 AM
I've been working on modifying the mechanical trap rules to create a decent pricing scale (NOT a realistic one) to make firearms and artillery a workable option within a D&D world.

It's not the best way, probably, but it gives you a starting point to make further adjustments

Grushvak
2009-10-11, 02:20 AM
Warlock sharpshooter powering his guns with eldritch blasts. Just throwing this out there.

playswithfire
2009-10-11, 07:49 AM
I know someone's already mentioned the Monte Cook weapons, but there's a web enhancement available online (http://www.ptolus.com/images/Technology.pdf) that actually details a dozen pistols and rifles, some mundane, some more reflective of a combined magic/technology setting, as well as a new Technology domain which has spells to make firearms more effective.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-11, 08:19 AM
I'd use guns as martial/exotic crossbows. Not much change from those mechanics.

Of course, I wouldn't use guns at all, but eh.

Myrmex
2009-10-14, 02:26 AM
Unrifled weapons are interesting, in that the effective range at which they can kill someone is vastly larger than the range at which they can reliably hit a man-sized target.

I would suggest:


All guns take 1 minute to reload.
All long guns are simple; all hand guns are martial.
Guns use Ranged Touch Attacks, but have -4 per range increment, and the range is fixed at 50 ft for long guns and 20 ft for handguns.



The thing most people miss about guns is that they are easily scalable. Making a super crossbow that does twice as much damage as a heavy crossbow is quite likely impossible; or the result is something like a ballista. The weight/strength ratio of the materials available just don't allow for it.

On the other hand, making a super musket that does twice as much damage as musket is positively trivial. Simply increase the bore, barrel thickness, and amount of powder.

In the real world this isn't terribly important. A half-inch bullet will kill any man, through any metal armor, at any range that you could actually hope to hit him without telescopic sights. So there's no point in making bigger guns, until you start using them to hunt vehicles.

But in D&D, some people and monsters have buckets of hit dice. This means people are going to make guns that do buckets of damage dice. Carrying a small cannon around is worth it when you're fighting a dragon - just as carrying a bazooka around is worth it when you're fighting tanks.

Unless your NPCs/PCs are retarded, they're going to defend themselves against monsters and high-level characters with artillery.

Which, btw, was invented long before hand guns were.

The Romans were using ballistae, or "super-crossbows" long before there were any crossbows. Scaling up small weapons to siege size isn't as unfeasible as you thing- the trebuchet is a modified sling, for instance, the ballista just a big crossbow.

Besides, when you increase the bore, you had to DRASTICALLY increase the weight of the gun, since more powder meant your primitive iron housing would otherwise go BOOM in your face.

I can see an ogre wielding a literal hand cannon with some degree of finesse, but a medium sized human trying to shoot someone pointblank with an actual cannon? Unlikely.

ShadowFighter15
2009-10-14, 03:40 AM
There are firearm rules in the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting book (one of the countries in the setting developed them because they're in a magical dead-zone). They count as exotic weapons, but taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) gives proficiency with all of them. There's six different types of guns and they look like they'd be nasty weapons since if you roll max damage on a shot; you get to roll again and add that to the original dice's result. And there's no limit to how many times this can happen; so if you roll max damage when firing a revolver, you roll again and if that roll comes up with max damage again, you roll a third time. Ad-infinitum until you roll less than maximum.

There is a chance for misfires if your attack roll is a natural 1 (some on a 1 or 2) and can either jam the gun, damage it so that it needs repairs before being usable again, or it gets damaged and the powder explodes out the back and dealing the weapon's damage to the user.

Reloading flintlock weapons (like a musket) takes a full-round action and a percussion cap gun (like a pistol or revolver) requires a move action for each shot loaded.

Pistols and revolvers do 1d6, rifles and muskets do 1d8, a blunderbuss does 2d6 (but does 1 die less damage for each range increment (20ft)) and a scattergun (basically a shotgun) does 3d6 (but has the same range problem as the blunderbuss, but has a slightly longer range increment of 30ft). They're all ungodly expensive too; the pistol and blunderbuss are the cheapest at 1,400 gp and the rifle costs a whopping 3 grand.

EDIT: Ah, missed the bit about the extra damage and misfires being optional rules.

fusilier
2009-10-14, 04:55 PM
I'm not that schooled in D&D rules, but I've got a fair amount of historical background.

The early weapons used matchlocks. This involved the use of a "match" (more like a slow burning fuse), which the operator had to handle while loading the weapon with loose powder. This slowed down the reload time considerably, although one could certainly load and fire faster than one shot a minute. Reasonably it could take around 30 seconds, if well trained. However, I would say at most make it take one full round to reload. This works within the game mechanism, and is how primitive firearms are usually handled in D&D (to the best of my recollection). Keep in mind that D&D is a fairly abstract system.

Muskets were a response to the heavier armor that was being introduced to counter the harquebus. So giving it more damage and range (and weight) would also be fair.

Early pistols typically used the wheellock mechanism for firing, but snaplocks and primitive flintlocks also existed. This dispensed with having to finagle the match while loading, and allowed weapons to be carried primed without the user having to carry some flame. Pistols fell into two categories, "small" belt pistols (still really big by modern standards), and massive horse pistols. These ignition systems were also used for longarms, sometimes for hunting, but rarely were they given to military personnel, except in special circumstances (like those guarding the powder train!). Making a horse pistol as powerful as a harquebus, is not unreasonable.

I've always been impressed by the "Mighty Fortress" rules for firearms (2nd ed. AD&D). They reduced the AC from armor based on the range increment, but didn't totally ignore it (except at close range). Something along those lines might work.

Rifling is actually quite old, but rarely used -- it required a very tight fitting ball, which slows down the reloading time of a muzzle-loading weapon even more. Pistols were expensive, but often carried in pairs or sometimes triples. There were early experiments with breachloading weapons, but they didn't catch on (probably too expensive, and too risky). Then there were crazy multi-shot weapons using super-imposed loads, that could be fired one at a time (requiring multiple locks and triggers), or in a rapid succession in Roman Candle style. All expensive, rare, and dangerous.

A blunderbuss is an early shotgun. Any smoothbore weapon can fire shot effectively though.

imp_fireball
2009-10-14, 08:54 PM
I can see an ogre wielding a literal hand cannon with some degree of finesse, but a medium sized human trying to shoot someone pointblank with an actual cannon? Unlikely.

Well if they have powerful build/monkey grip, high STR or any other variety of cheese the GM rolls with.

Guns empower martial characters, so that's why I'm all for them.