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Jokasti
2009-10-10, 10:24 PM
The Blessed

Description
Basically, the chosen of the Gods. Gifted with both arcane and divine magic.
Those who worship Gods see Blessed as incredibly lucky and holy, and wizards want to study them to see how the gods give them arcane magic. Clerics and wizards are mildly jealous of them and how they got their power, but Blessed get along well with other classes, especially Sorcerers and Bards.

Abilities
Charisma and Wisdom are important to Blessed so they can cast their spells, and Intelligence so they know more spells. Strength or Dexterity is also important, depending on your weapon of choice.

Races
By definition, all races can become Blessed.

Alignments
Blessed must have an alignment within one step of their God's.

Class Skills
Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Heal, Knowledge (arcane), Knowledge (religion), Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Use Magic Device
Starting= (2 + Int Mod) x 4
Every Level after= 2 + Int Mod

Hit Die
d6

The Blessed
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|
2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|
3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3|
4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Blessing
5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|
6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|
7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|
8th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+6|Blessing
9th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+6|
10th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7|
11th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7|
12th|
+6/+1|
+4|
+4|
+8|Blessing
13th|
+6/+1|
+4|
+4|
+8|
14th|
+7/+2|
+4|
+4|
+9|
15th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+9|
16th|
+8/+3|
+5|
+5|
+10|Blessing
17th|
+8/+3|
+5|
+5|
+10|
18th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+11|

19th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+11|
20th|
+10/+5|
+6|
+6|
+12|Blessing
[/table]

Spells Per Day
{table=head]Level|0th|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th
1st|
1d3+3|
1d3+1||||||||
2nd|
1d3+3|
1d3+2|||||||||
3rd|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
0||||||||
4th|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+1||||||||
5th|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+2|
0|||||||
6th|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+1|||||||
7th|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+2|
0||||||
8th|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+1||||||
9th|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+2|
0|||||
10th|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+1|||||
11th|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+2|
0||||
12th|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+1||||
13th|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+2|
0|||
14th|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+1|||
15th|
1d2+4|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+2|
0||
16th|
1d2+4|
1d2+4|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+1||
17th|
1d2+4|
1d2+4|
1d2+4|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+2|
0|
18th|
1d2+4|
1d2+4|
1d2+4|
1d2+4|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+1|
19th|
1d2+4|
1d2+4|
1d2+4|
1d2+4|
1d2+4|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+2|
20th|
1d2+4|
1d2+4|
1d2+4|
1d2+4|
1d2+4|
1d2+4|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3|
1d3+3
[/table]

At the beginning of every game session, the Blessed's player rolls new spells per day. They have these numbers for Spells Per Day for a few days (during the gaming session). Every now and then (at the beginning of a new session) a God will increase or decrease the flow of power to the Blessed, but not drastically.

Spells Known
Blessed know half as many spells as sorcerers, but that many in each arcane and divine spells. On odd numbers, choose either one arcane spell or one divine spell of that level. On even numbers, add the other spell.


Class Features
-Proficient with simple and martial weapons, and light armor. Blessed do not have Arcane Spell Failure in light armor, but still have it in medium and heavy. They can also cast spells while wielding a weapon.
-A Blessed can cast both arcane and divine spells from both the cleric and sorcerer/wizard spell lists. To cast a divine spell, a Blessed must have a Wisdom equal to or greater than 10 + the spellís level, and with arcane spells, Charisma must be at least 10 + the spellís level. The DC for the save against a Blessedís spells is equal to 10 + the spell level + the Cha or Wis modifier.
-A Blessed can only cast a certain number of spells every day. In addition, a Blessed gains extra arcane spells per day with a high Charisma, and extra divine spells per day with a high Wisdom. Their spell selection is extremely limited; they donít prepare their spells like a wizard or cleric, they know them like a sorcerer. In addition, they gain more spells known with a high Intelligence.

-Blessings:
-Level 4:
*+10 skill points, +1 non-class skill added to class skill list
*3/4 BAB
*+1 Save DC for spells (either arcane or divine)
*Roll twice at the beginning of the gaming session and take the greater of the two rolls for every level of spells.

-Level 8:
*1 BAB (must have 3/4)
*+1 Save DC for spells (other)
*+2 insight to AC, +10 Speed
*+2 Attack and Damage

-Level 12, 16, 20:
*1 Domain (must be one of gods)
*+2 Save DC for spells (arcane or divine/other)
*+1 Stat
*+3 Attack and Damage

Bonus Spells Known
Int 10: no extra
12: 1 extra 0th level
14: 2 extra 0th
16: 2 extra 0th, 1 1st
18: 3 extra 0th, 1 1st
20: 3 extra 0th, 2 1st
22: 3 extra 0th, 2 1st, 1 2nd
etc.
Divide the even spells evenly between arcane and divine, and choose between the odds which ones are arcane or divine. You do not get bonus spells for temporary Intelligence.[/QUOTE]

Jokasti
2009-10-11, 04:48 PM
Edited Blessings and Spells Known.
I'll post a sample character soon.

Glimbur
2009-10-11, 05:58 PM
Disclaimer: I am trying to help.

Skills: Why 4+ per level? Wizards, Sorcerers, Clerics, and Favored Souls all get 2+ per level. The only spellcasters that get more than that have other focuses (Druids do nature skills, Bards do face stuff, Beguilers do sneaking). Why are Hide and Move Silently on the list? I might also question Spot and Listen, but I think those should be more common so whatever.

Hit Die: Could argue for d4 like a Mystic Theurge gets, but not a big deal.

BAB: 1/2 makes sense.

Saves: Good will makes sense, but why good reflex? That's more the domain of a rogue or bard or other slippery folks than a full caster.

Spells Known: Ouch. Do you round up, down, or up for one class and down for the other? Honestly, this needs increasing for the class to be viable. Bonus spells known based on Int aren't enough to cover this, and were I to make a member of this class I would dump Int so I could get more Cha and Wis.

Class Features
-Why martial weapons?
-Light armor proficiency but nothing about ignoring Arcane Spell Failure in light armor. Is this intentional?
-Spells per day... like a sorcerer for the base? Possible confusion about tracking two separate sets of spontaneous slots, one arcane and one divine.
-Blessings... what? +3 DC for spells? Also, your bonuses should be typed to reduce their power. Otherwise every character in the game will dip a level in Blessed for a bonus to almost anything they want.

Overall, the class is at the same time too good (full arcane and divine casting) and too weak (...but you only get ~2 spells known a level for each side.). Blessings need a look. Maybe more class features. Pinch some from the Favored Soul?

Jokasti
2009-10-11, 07:14 PM
Disclaimer: I am trying to help.

Skills: Why 4+ per level? Wizards, Sorcerers, Clerics, and Favored Souls all get 2+ per level. The only spellcasters that get more than that have other focuses (Druids do nature skills, Bards do face stuff, Beguilers do sneaking). Why are Hide and Move Silently on the list? I might also question Spot and Listen, but I think those should be more common so whatever.

Hit Die: Could argue for d4 like a Mystic Theurge gets, but not a big deal.

BAB: 1/2 makes sense.

Saves: Good will makes sense, but why good reflex? That's more the domain of a rogue or bard or other slippery folks than a full caster.

Spells Known: Ouch. Do you round up, down, or up for one class and down for the other? Honestly, this needs increasing for the class to be viable. Bonus spells known based on Int aren't enough to cover this, and were I to make a member of this class I would dump Int so I could get more Cha and Wis.

Class Features
-Why martial weapons?
-Light armor proficiency but nothing about ignoring Arcane Spell Failure in light armor. Is this intentional?
-Spells per day... like a sorcerer for the base? Possible confusion about tracking two separate sets of spontaneous slots, one arcane and one divine.
-Blessings... what? +3 DC for spells? Also, your bonuses should be typed to reduce their power. Otherwise every character in the game will dip a level in Blessed for a bonus to almost anything they want.

Overall, the class is at the same time too good (full arcane and divine casting) and too weak (...but you only get ~2 spells known a level for each side.). Blessings need a look. Maybe more class features. Pinch some from the Favored Soul?

Skills: Good point.
Hit Die: I Averaged the sorcerer and cleric class hit die.
Saves: They are supposed to be quick and able to dodge well.
Spells Known: When you have an even number on the Sorcerer Spells Known List, the spells are divided evenly. On Odds, you choose either an Arcane or a Divine spell to be learned, and when that goes up to an even, you gain the other spell.
Feature-
-Martial weapons because I am going to incorporate a random factor into the number of spells Blessed get a day, and when that number is low, they have to rely on their physical skills.
-Forgot to put it in. Thanks!
-See above
-You need 5 levels in Blessed to get their first Blessing, soooooooooooo....
-I'll clarify and add more to the BLessings.

Eldrys
2009-10-11, 07:16 PM
-You need 5 levels in Blessed to get their first Blessing
According to the chart you get one at first level

Jokasti
2009-10-11, 07:19 PM
According to the chart you get one at first level
Whoops. Thanks for the catch.

Saint Nil
2009-10-11, 07:33 PM
I like the idea, even if it does seem like it would be somewhat underpowered. Yes, I can heal myself and cast wizard spells, but the wizard and cleric can do both better. Sigh, dabbling never ends well.

Also, in the beginning you state that lawful blesses run from the law often. Why?

Jokasti
2009-10-11, 07:53 PM
I like the idea, even if it does seem like it would be somewhat underpowered. Yes, I can heal myself and cast wizard spells, but the wizard and cleric can do both better. Sigh, dabbling never ends well.

Also, in the beginning you state that lawful blesses run from the law often. Why?

Clerics do not get along well with Blessed because they 'earned' their power, while Blessed were chosen. Clerics usually are part of the government (/law).

Wizards don't like em either, for the same reasons. Sorcerers, Barbarians, Bards, and Druids like Blessed.

Jokasti
2009-10-11, 09:02 PM
Sample Blessed:
Name: Yohannibe
Class/Level: Blessed/13
Race/Alignment: Human/True Neutral
Deity: Pelor
Str:16(3)
Dex:18(4)
Con:18(4)
Int:22(6)
Wis:22(6)
Cha:22(6)
HP:110
AC:20
Initiative:+8
Fort:13
Ref:17
Will:19
BAB: +7/+2
Skills(Name/Ranks):Bluff/16, Concentration/16, Disguise/8, Gather Info/8, Intimidate/8, Knowledge (arcana)/16, Knowledge (religion)/16, Listen/16, Move Silently/8, Sense Motive/8, Spellcraft/16, Spot/16
Items: Longsword, Chain shirt, Gloves of Dex +4, Amulet of Health +4, Belt of Giant Strength +4, Periapt of Wisdom +4, Cloak of Charisma +4, Bracelet of Int +4, Cloak of Resistance +5
Feats: Improved Initiative, 5 Metamagic feats
Spells:
Arcane:
0th: Prestidigitation, Detect Magic, Mage Hand, Message, Light
1st: Mage Armor, Mount, Charm Person
2nd: Scorching Ray, Eagle's Splendor, Owl's Wisdom
3rd: Fireball, Fly
4th: Phantasmal Killer, Greater Invisibility
5th: Dominate Person, Baleful Polymorph
6th: Disintegrate
Divine:
0th: Resistance, Guidance, Create Water, Purify Food and Drink
1st: Cure Light Wounds, Command
2nd: Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance
3rd: Cure Serious Wounds, Searing Light
4th: Cure and Inflict Critical Wounds
5th: Flame Strike
6th: Planar Ally
Blessings:
+1 BAB
+2 AC


Mostly reliant on spells, but as soon as he can, will upgrade his longsword into a magic item.

Jokasti
2009-10-11, 09:53 PM
I was conferring with a pal of mine, and he said to minimalize the randomness of the SPD, because when there aren't as many spells in a day the group wil have to rest until a decent number of spells are obtained.
Comments? And how would I switch the randomness for set numbers?

Glimbur
2009-10-11, 10:16 PM
It's really strange to have spells/day determined randomly. I can't see any advantage and at least one disadvantage.

It's a bookkeeping nightmare. A 10th level Blessed would have to roll twelve dice after every rest and keep track of the numbers and not mix them up with yesterday's spells per day.

Is there a flavor reason for this mechanic?

Jokasti
2009-10-11, 10:24 PM
It's really strange to have spells/day determined randomly. I can't see any advantage and at least one disadvantage.

It's a bookkeeping nightmare. A 10th level Blessed would have to roll twelve dice after every rest and keep track of the numbers and not mix them up with yesterday's spells per day.

Is there a flavor reason for this mechanic?

Basically, I wanted it to be that they have a lot of magical power, but can't always rely on it. And you're right about the dice-rolling nightmare. I think I'm going to have to have to change the # of spells per day. How bout this: You roll at the beginning of the meeting, and those are the numbers for the entire meeting. When the next meeting begins, you roll your spells for day for that meeting. The in-game reason for this would be that every now and then, your god increases or decreases your flow of power to see how you would react. And there could be a new blessing that allows you to roll twice a meeting and take the better result for each level of spell.

Glimbur
2009-10-11, 10:41 PM
Have you considered rolling for spells known each day as well?

Stompy
2009-10-11, 10:52 PM
...and Intelligence so they know more spells.

Does the intelligence boost to spells known work on one side or two?


Blessed can be all alignments; however, lawful Blessed are rarer, if only because they are running from the law so often.

This is what is confusing me the most flavorwise. What gods/goddess are you using for this class? I can easily see a blessed of a LG deity being a moral pillar of society, well respected by everyone, and not chases out from the law.

Also, I feel that this class is too broad in scope; you're trying to roll a "bard" (in skill selection), a sorc, a cleric, and a fighter into one class. I personally think that most of your class skills are not needed, and I personally feel that being a mystic theurge base class is fine.

+1 BAB is useless in a 1/2 BAB class with potential access to divine power, and

Random spells per day is a bookkeeping nightmare and should not be done unless you and the DM agree on it. For 1d6/2 spells per day, do you round up or down if you get a fraction?

Jokasti
2009-10-11, 10:55 PM
Have you considered rolling for spells known each day as well?

Yes, but the point of rolling for SPD is to see how much power the god decides to give you. It's like you already have a car, just how much gasoline do you have. So you know the spells, you just dont know how often you can use them.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-10-11, 10:59 PM
So, I noticed that there isn't any marking as to whether or not the Blessings are supernatural, extraordinary nor how long they last and what it takes to activate them.

As for the blessings themselves, real men grab +3 to save DCs each chance they get. The stat bonuses demand some sort of type, probably sacred/profane, but I would also drop those, because, really, getting free stat boosts is generally too good. The speed bonus is pathetic, as is the BAB bonus. The AC bonus is handy early game, worthless late. The extra skill points are odd and are basically two (near worthless) feats. Same goes for the bonus class skill, really. The bonus spell needs a little templating to clarify if it's one extra spell for all divine spell levels or is it one extra spell for one level of one type?

The only blessing that actually feels to be worth it is the domain ability. Everything else is either terrible or too good (I'm looking at you, +3 to spell DCs).



Also, I'm going to agree with Glimbur on the rolling for spells per day. At first level, you're at least as effective as every other non-Focused Specialist caster. At 20th level, you're rolling 20 dice to then figure out how many spells you have. Sure, you don't have to prepare them, but it's still a nightmare to figure out what you can actually afford to do in a day.

EDIT: Post came in while typing, so quoting this here.


Yes, but the point of rolling for SPD is to see how much power the god decides to give you. It's like you already have a car, just how much gasoline do you have. So you know the spells, you just dont know how often you can use them.

I personally would like to know how much gas I have at any given time so I don't get half-way to Chicago when my car dies.

Jokasti
2009-10-11, 11:05 PM
Does the intelligence boost to spells known work on one side or two?
If by that you mean, do you get less spells per day if your Int is less than 10? Then no. It works the same way as bonus spells per day in the PHB, just with Known.



This is what is confusing me the most flavorwise. What gods/goddess are you using for this class? I can easily see a blessed of a LG deity being a moral pillar of society, well respected by everyone, and not chases out from the law.

Any God can Bless anyone. However, even a LG Blessed is not popular in most towns controlled by Clerics/Wizards, for aforementioned reasons.



Also, I feel that this class is too broad in scope; you're trying to roll a "bard" (in skill selection), a sorc, a cleric, and a fighter into one class. I personally think that most of your class skills are not needed, and I personally feel that being a mystic theurge base class is fine.

I wanted the class to be where you could use spells, and once you are out of spells, attack with a weapon. I see what you mean about the excess class skills though. I also did not think about this being a MT base class until you just posted it. There's no point in using the MT with this class because you would just get the same thing w/ less BAB, F/W/R. But I see what you mean.



+1 BAB is useless in a 1/2 BAB class with potential access to divine power.

Yes, potential. Are you suggesting a higher BAB bonus, or the expungement of this Blessing?



Random spells per day is a bookkeeping nightmare and should not be done unless you and the DM agree on it. For 1d6/2 spells per day, do you round up or down if you get a fraction?
I'm thinking about random spells per meeting. And up (1 and 2=1, 3 and 4=2, and 5 and 6=3. Essentially a d3)

Hyooz
2009-10-11, 11:05 PM
Yes, but the point of rolling for SPD is to see how much power the god decides to give you. It's like you already have a car, just how much gasoline do you have. So you know the spells, you just dont know how often you can use them.

It's more like a car that can go one of two speeds: 10mph or 70mph.

Honestly, rolling crappy spells/day one session is like the GM taking away the wizard's spellbook, except it's a class feature. "Your spells randomly might go away" just isn't fun.

Jokasti
2009-10-11, 11:10 PM
So, I noticed that there isn't any marking as to whether or not the Blessings are supernatural, extraordinary nor how long they last and what it takes to activate them.

As for the blessings themselves, real men grab +3 to save DCs each chance they get. The stat bonuses demand some sort of type, probably sacred/profane, but I would also drop those, because, really, getting free stat boosts is generally too good. The speed bonus is pathetic, as is the BAB bonus. The AC bonus is handy early game, worthless late. The extra skill points are odd and are basically two (near worthless) feats. Same goes for the bonus class skill, really. The bonus spell needs a little templating to clarify if it's one extra spell for all divine spell levels or is it one extra spell for one level of one type?

The only blessing that actually feels to be worth it is the domain ability. Everything else is either terrible or too good (I'm looking at you, +3 to spell DCs).



Also, I'm going to agree with Glimbur on the rolling for spells per day. At first level, you're at least as effective as every other non-Focused Specialist caster. At 20th level, you're rolling 20 dice to then figure out how many spells you have. Sure, you don't have to prepare them, but it's still a nightmare to figure out what you can actually afford to do in a day.

EDIT: Post came in while typing, so quoting this here.



I personally would like to know how much gas I have at any given time so I don't get half-way to Chicago when my car dies.
What about these following changes?:
+2 to Save DC
+1 Stat Bonus, +2 AC
+2 BAB, +5 Speed
+10 Skill points, +1 Class Skill

Hyooz
2009-10-11, 11:11 PM
What about these following changes?:
+2 to Save DC
+1 Stat Bonus, +2 AC
+2 BAB, +5 Speed
+10 Skill points, +1 Class Skill

In a class this MAD? I will always take the +1 to a Stat. Always. The other ones just aren't worth looking at.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-10-11, 11:12 PM
I wanted the class to be where you could use spells, and once you are out of spells, attack with a weapon. I see what you mean about the excess class skills though. I also did not think about this being a MT base class until you just posted it. There's no point in using the MT with this class because you would just get the same thing w/ less BAB, F/W/R. But I see what you mean.

So, here's the rub on that. With minimal trickery, you could use the Blessed with Druid and get 2.5 sets of 9th level spells. It may not have been you're intention, but it is a definite oversight.

Jokasti
2009-10-11, 11:14 PM
It's more like a car that can go one of two speeds: 10mph or 70mph.

Honestly, rolling crappy spells/day one session is like the GM taking away the wizard's spellbook, except it's a class feature. "Your spells randomly might go away" just isn't fun.
There is a blessing that lets you roll for SPD 2/session, but I see what you mean, which is why I am going to minimize the randomness, but still keep some.



In a class this MAD? I will always take the +1 to a Stat. Always. The other ones just aren't worth looking at.

So, if the +1 to the Stat was taken away, what would go good with the AC bonus and balance out the other blessings?

Jokasti
2009-10-11, 11:15 PM
So, here's the rub on that. With minimal trickery, you could use the Blessed with Druid and get 2.5 sets of 9th level spells. It may not have been you're intention, but it is a definite oversight.

Could you elaborate?

Hyooz
2009-10-11, 11:16 PM
I wanted the class to be where you could use spells, and once you are out of spells, attack with a weapon. I see what you mean about the excess class skills though. I also did not think about this being a MT base class until you just posted it. There's no point in using the MT with this class because you would just get the same thing w/ less BAB, F/W/R. But I see what you mean.


Let me touch on this slightly differently than TDC up there.

If you want a class that relies on spells first, and his weapon prowess later, look at the duskblade or war wizard (whatever its called, Complete Arcane.) A class with BAB like this isn't going to jump into melee combat when they run out of spells (a lot, because they have bad luck and roll poorly) they're going to stay away, because they can't contribute to melee combat at all, and will likely die unless they invested heavily in Con.

So what you've created here is the most MAD class since the monk. You need all the mental stats to be halfway effective with your spells, and solid physical stats so you don't die/can contribute to melee like you're talking about.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-10-11, 11:17 PM
What about these following changes?:
+2 to Save DC
+1 Stat Bonus, +2 AC
+2 BAB, +5 Speed
+10 Skill points, +1 Class Skill

Still needs some sort of bonus type, but as long as the save DC option doesn't stack, it's effectively going to be Greater+Regular Spell Focus for everything you cast. Dropping it down to just +1 is good enough.

The stat bonus feels odd on a base class, but that may just be me. Having it just be +1 to a stat is probably fine. If you're going to start combining some, I would throw the speed boost (+10ft. It isn't hurting anyone.) along with the AC boost. The BAB bonus might be better suited to a retroactive change to 3/4 BAB instead, but you're still a full caster.*shrug*

The skill bonus one is kind of the odd one out, here. The class does not feel like a skill monkey a la Bard or Beguiler. I would honestly prefer to see it dropped, with some more Blessings being created whole-cloth, probably with connections to domains.

Averagedog
2009-10-11, 11:19 PM
you know what? In my personal opinion, I think you would be much better off creating two separate extremely limited spell lists for this class that are specific about what the blessed get to cast. Limiting what they can cast can justify your dream to have them also fight with weapons after they are out of their useful spells. Take the Duskblade for example. the duskblade is primarily flavored to be a melee fighter with few very specific spells to cast and stuff. what you want to do is the opposite which is make a class primarily built to cast but have few fighting capabilities as opposed to the traditional none for casters in general.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-10-11, 11:20 PM
Could you elaborate?

Sure. Human Blessed 1/Druid2/Mystic Theurge6/Arcane Heirophant 10/Mystic Theurge +1, netting spell preparation and Sanctum Spell at first level. I may be off on how many druid levels you need for Arcane Heirophant, but the character would permanently be a bear (or something worse), casting silly amounts of buff spell and ripping people's faces off. Or casting spells. A lot.

Hyooz
2009-10-11, 11:22 PM
There is a blessing that lets you roll for SPD 2/session, but I see what you mean, which is why I am going to minimize the randomness, but still keep some.


So, if the +1 to the Stat was taken away, what would go good with the AC bonus and balance out the other blessings?

It won't matter how many times I can roll. I just wasted a blessing to lower my chances of getting screwed by my god a little bit (the earliest I can get it being level 5, so at low levels, when I NEED to be as effective as possible, I can't guarantee, or even minimize that.) I can still get totally screwed because I rolled badly, and now I go a whole play session with 1d6 + something spells twice, but it still doesn't matter much since I have fewer spells known than the sorceror who can at least cast all day without much worry.

The flavor of the non-lawfulness still doesn't make sense. Clerics are usually out being religious, not making laws. We have an aristocrat NPC class for those kinds of people. Plus, wizards don't hate bards or warlocks, and clerics don't hate favored souls (another melee caster you should look at) why do they hate Blessed so much that they're almost constantly running away? And even if this made sense, now I have a class that barely gets spells/day, gets even fewer spells known, can barely CAST those spells since he needs to be spending all his time boosting his THREE casting stats, and is hated by some of the most common and powerful NPCs/PCs in the game! How will he get a res? Will the local wizard sell him magical items? Will the wizard party with him?

sonofzeal
2009-10-11, 11:25 PM
What about these following changes?:
+2 to Save DC
+1 Stat Bonus, +2 AC
+2 BAB, +5 Speed
+10 Skill points, +1 Class Skill
They look pretty balanced with eachother. They're all pretty powerful, really. The first and last, specifically, are roughly the equivalent of two feats each. That makes the middle two rather overpowered when taken by themselves, but +2 BAB is not going to break this class. The +1 stat +2 AC one though, yeah, that's pretty huge. Way better than two feats. Honestly, splitting that up would be reasonable. I'd call +2 insight bonus to AC (that stacks with itself) equal to the first and fourth, but you might want to also toss in a goody like "Uncanny Dodge" that goes up to "Improved" if they already have it, just for good measure. The +1 inherent stat bonus could pair up with something weaker, like +3 HP or something.

Jokasti
2009-10-11, 11:28 PM
It won't matter how many times I can roll. I just wasted a blessing to lower my chances of getting screwed by my god a little bit (the earliest I can get it being level 5, so at low levels, when I NEED to be as effective as possible, I can't guarantee, or even minimize that.) I can still get totally screwed because I rolled badly, and now I go a whole play session with 1d6 + something spells twice, but it still doesn't matter much since I have fewer spells known than the sorceror who can at least cast all day without much worry.

The flavor of the non-lawfulness still doesn't make sense. Clerics are usually out being religious, not making laws. We have an aristocrat NPC class for those kinds of people. Plus, wizards don't hate bards or warlocks, and clerics don't hate favored souls (another melee caster you should look at) why do they hate Blessed so much that they're almost constantly running away? And even if this made sense, now I have a class that barely gets spells/day, gets even fewer spells known, can barely CAST those spells since he needs to be spending all his time boosting his THREE casting stats, and is hated by some of the most common and powerful NPCs/PCs in the game! How will he get a res? Will the local wizard sell him magical items? Will the wizard party with him?

I made sure that Blessed have exactly the same (more with a high Int) number of Spells Known as the Sorcerer.

Stompy
2009-10-11, 11:30 PM
If by that you mean, do you get less spells per day if your Int is less than 10? Then no. It works the same way as bonus spells per day in the PHB, just with Known.

I meant if my blessed character had 16 int, would he get 2 extra 0th, and 1 1st level spell use on both his arcane and divine spell lists?


Any God can Bless anyone. However, even a LG Blessed is not popular in most towns controlled by Clerics/Wizards, for aforementioned reasons.

True, I just think that you campaign NPC people are WAY too jealous. :smallbiggrin: (I just don't see LG clerics chasing a LG blessed guy out of town.)

Do you treat Favored Souls the same way?


I wanted the class to be where you could use spells, and once you are out of spells, attack with a weapon. I see what you mean about the excess class skills though. I also did not think about this being a MT base class until you just posted it. There's no point in using the MT with this class because you would just get the same thing w/ less BAB, F/W/R. But I see what you mean.

My point was that your +1 BAB means nothing in terms of attacking with a backup weapon, because most spell-casty people who swing backup weapons do so because they are out of spells or they don't need to cast anymore. The result is usually poor attack and poor damage.

(You do make me curious into how a gish-type character using blessed would work however. CoDzilla wraithstrike?)

Also when I said MT base class I meant it got both arcane and divine spells. Taking MT with this is just silly.


Yes, potential. Are you suggesting a higher BAB bonus, or the expungement of this Blessing?

I'm suggesting a +1 sacred bonus to attack and damage instead, because getting BAB off of a class feature is weird, it puts a little more "oomf" into it, and it just seems more flavorful for a blessed character.


I'm thinking about random spells per meeting. And up (1 and 2=1, 3 and 4=2, and 5 and 6=3. Essentially a d3)

You should probably list it as a d3 (if you haven't done so already).

Jokasti
2009-10-11, 11:41 PM
I meant if my blessed character had 16 int, would he get 2 extra 0th, and 1 1st level spell use on both his arcane and divine spell lists?

Good point. If it's even, evenly divide between arcane and divine, and on odd, choose. If your Int goes up, and an odd number becomes even, do the other. If I had 2 extra 0th, and 1 1st, then 1 0th is arcane, and 1 0th is divine, and i choose what the 1 is (say, arcane). But if my Int goes up, and I now have 2 1sts, then the other is divine.



True, I just think that you campaign NPC people are WAY too jealous. :smallbiggrin: (I just don't see LG clerics chasing a LG blessed guy out of town.)

Do you treat Favored Souls the same way?


That's because no matter the setting, they will always be jealous that these infidels got immense power thrown in their faces, while they had to pray/study for like 30 years to get an orison/cantrip.
Favored Souls aren't in my campaign, but if they were, then Favored Souls, Blessed, and Sorcerers would all be recognized as powerful people, but hunted by clerics, wizards, or both.



My point was that your +1 BAB means nothing in terms of attacking with a backup weapon, because most spell-casty people who swing backup weapons do so because they are out of spells or they don't need to cast anymore. The result is usually poor attack and poor damage.

Someone else suggested 3/4 BAB prog. and that sounded good to me, so it's moot.



Also when I said MT base class I meant it got both arcane and divine spells. Taking MT with this is just silly.

I know, it would actually hurt you, as your BAB, and saves would go down, and you would miss out on Blessings.



You should probably list it as a d3 (if you haven't done so already).
I'm thinking of changing the likes of a d6 to a d3+3, or something where you would still get a lot of spells.

Hyooz
2009-10-11, 11:45 PM
Honestly, you're on the right track for an interesting gish class here. You'd need to tweak things a little, and that might effect your intended flavor for the class, but I'm generally of the opinion that base classes shouldn't have strong flavor associated with them, so here I go.

Give them fairly limited spell lists on both sides. Stick to stuff like healing and buffs on the divine side, and attacks/buffs on the arcane side. Scrap the whole rolling for spells/day idea. That just won't make any player or GM happy with all the rolling and chances for getting screwed. Take the average of your dice rolls, maybe improve slightly for spells/day. Enough that he can still cast as an option, but not enough that he can do it all day. Look at the duskblade spells/day if you want something more standard/concrete. Don't forget that list as inspiration, just don't use it straight, it seriously needs updating for the modern gish.

Scrap the current idea of how blessings work. Look at the spell secrets from that one oriental arcane caster class. Make a list of extra, special little things he can do with his spells. Like spontaneously extend spells X times a day, or cast personal spells on teammates X times a day. Little bonuses like that that make the choice interesting and focus your character somehow. Try to keep them to changing how spells work, though, to keep the class and its blessings unique.

Increase the BAB to a point where they could contribute to melee combat. Look at duskblade or favored soul again. Maybe give them a blessing that lets you change the bonus type of buff spells so you can stack, say, Mage Armor with normal armor. just throwing ideas out at this point.

Drop all this flavor about being non-lawful and getting run out of town a lot. It just doesn't make sense, it's not internally consistent with the world as a whole.

I think this kind of thing would fit the idea of being blessed by your god a little better than random spells/day. And it's a better setup in general for a gish-y character, or even one who resorts to sword last and spells first.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-10-11, 11:48 PM
That's because no matter the setting, they will always be jealous that these infidels got immense power thrown in their faces, while they had to pray/study for like 30 years to get an orison/cantrip.
Favored Souls aren't in my campaign, but if they were, then Favored Souls, Blessed, and Sorcerers would all be recognized as powerful people, but hunted by clerics, wizards, or both.

The thing is, it doesn't necessarily take everyone 30 years to get that cantrip... unless they're elves, but they don't count. Sure, the stereotypical primary caster is as old as most artifacts, but that doesn't mean it took them their entire life to just get first level spells. Heck, the PHB has random starting ages. Average age for a human to get his first full class level? 22 years old, and as low as 17, if you stay faithful to rolling age.


I know, it would actually hurt you, as your BAB, and saves would go down, and you would miss out on Blessings.

Switching gears here, but, I would personally rather have more 9th level spells than an extra Blessing or a few points of BAB, especially if my spells either get me sad BAB or turn me into a bear.

Jokasti
2009-10-11, 11:51 PM
Honestly, you're on the right track for an interesting gish class here. You'd need to tweak things a little, and that might effect your intended flavor for the class, but I'm generally of the opinion that base classes shouldn't have strong flavor associated with them, so here I go.

Give them fairly limited spell lists on both sides. Stick to stuff like healing and buffs on the divine side, and attacks/buffs on the arcane side. Scrap the whole rolling for spells/day idea. That just won't make any player or GM happy with all the rolling and chances for getting screwed. Take the average of your dice rolls, maybe improve slightly for spells/day. Enough that he can still cast as an option, but not enough that he can do it all day. Look at the duskblade spells/day if you want something more standard/concrete. Don't forget that list as inspiration, just don't use it straight, it seriously needs updating for the modern gish.

Scrap the current idea of how blessings work. Look at the spell secrets from that one oriental arcane caster class. Make a list of extra, special little things he can do with his spells. Like spontaneously extend spells X times a day, or cast personal spells on teammates X times a day. Little bonuses like that that make the choice interesting and focus your character somehow. Try to keep them to changing how spells work, though, to keep the class and its blessings unique.

Increase the BAB to a point where they could contribute to melee combat. Look at duskblade or favored soul again. Maybe give them a blessing that lets you change the bonus type of buff spells so you can stack, say, Mage Armor with normal armor. just throwing ideas out at this point.

Drop all this flavor about being non-lawful and getting run out of town a lot. It just doesn't make sense, it's not internally consistent with the world as a whole.

I think this kind of thing would fit the idea of being blessed by your god a little better than random spells/day. And it's a better setup in general for a gish-y character, or even one who resorts to sword last and spells first.
I didn't intend for this class to be gish, just spellcaster with a backup melee plan. Blessings are part of the class design, and there is a blessing that makes BAB 3/4. I'm thinking of tiering Blessings, so that at tenth you can get Greater Improved BAB for 1/1.
Blessed aren't non-lawful at all, they are just pursued and persecuted by clerics and wizards, which makes them non-urban. Not non-lawful.

Hyooz
2009-10-11, 11:54 PM
That's because no matter the setting, they will always be jealous that these infidels got immense power thrown in their faces, while they had to pray/study for like 30 years to get an orison/cantrip.
Favored Souls aren't in my campaign, but if they were, then Favored Souls, Blessed, and Sorcerers would all be recognized as powerful people, but hunted by clerics, wizards, or both.


This is still just really... bad for DnD in general. These people aren't 'infidels' especially to the clerics. These are people chosen, DIRECTLY BLESSED by the gods these clerics worship. There's no way a cleric of Hieronius will see someone blessed by that god and try to chase him out of town. It'd doesn't make sense. Wizards? Eh... maybe, but you still have the issue of sorcerors, warlocks, bards, etc, who got magic through means other than study.

And you STILL have the issue of the fact that you have created a player class that simply cannot be run with (at least) two of the primary player classes! If wizards and clerics hate blessed always, who will adventure with this guy? How will you have group cohesion in character? Why wouldn't they chase him out? Can blessed by magic items at the local shop? Can they go to their god's temple and pray? You've created a strictly outcast character (that frankly has no business being an outcast) for no apparent reason.

Also: Gods granting arcane power is a little weird in general, but whatever.

Jokasti
2009-10-11, 11:54 PM
The thing is, it doesn't necessarily take everyone 30 years to get that cantrip... unless they're elves, but they don't count. Sure, the stereotypical primary caster is as old as most artifacts, but that doesn't mean it took them their entire life to just get first level spells. Heck, the PHB has random starting ages. Average age for a human to get his first full class level? 22 years old, and as low as 17, if you stay faithful to rolling age.


sorry about the hyperbole :p



Switching gears here, but, I would personally rather have more 9th level spells than an extra Blessing or a few points of BAB, especially if my spells either get me sad BAB or turn me into a bear.
I was talking specifically about the mystic theurge. Like a Blessed 5/Mystic Theurge 5 would be worse than a Blessed 10.

Hyooz
2009-10-11, 11:56 PM
I didn't intend for this class to be gish, just spellcaster with a backup melee plan. Blessings are part of the class design, and there is a blessing that makes BAB 3/4. I'm thinking of tiering Blessings, so that at tenth you can get Greater Improved BAB for 1/1.
Blessed aren't non-lawful at all, they are just pursued and persecuted by clerics and wizards, which makes them non-urban. Not non-lawful.


Alignments
Blessed can be all alignments; however, lawful Blessed are rarer, if only because they are running from the law so often.

I'm sorry what?

And the idea of 'caster with a melee backup plan' rarely ever works well. Right now, you have a class that can use one of its four major class features to become kind of ok at melee if it really has the stats for it.

Jokasti
2009-10-11, 11:56 PM
This is still just really... bad for DnD in general. These people aren't 'infidels' especially to the clerics. These are people chosen, DIRECTLY BLESSED by the gods these clerics worship. There's no way a cleric of Hieronius will see someone blessed by that god and try to chase him out of town. It'd doesn't make sense. Wizards? Eh... maybe, but you still have the issue of sorcerors, warlocks, bards, etc, who got magic through means other than study.

Another exageration, they just don't get along. It's like Vaarsuvius and Belkar with Exploding runes, only magical.




And you STILL have the issue of the fact that you have created a player class that simply cannot be run with (at least) two of the primary player classes! If wizards and clerics hate blessed always, who will adventure with this guy? How will you have group cohesion in character? Why wouldn't they chase him out? Can blessed by magic items at the local shop? Can they go to their god's temple and pray? You've created a strictly outcast character (that frankly has no business being an outcast) for no apparent reason.

Also: Gods granting arcane power is a little weird in general, but whatever.
Gods save the arcane power for the best.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-10-12, 12:01 AM
sorry about the hyperbole :p

Not an issue. I just find it a little annoying every time someone throws out "It takes 'em a hundred years to learn cantrips!" type of thing.


I was talking specifically about the mystic theurge. Like a Blessed 5/Mystic Theurge 5 would be worse than a Blessed 10.

Right, and Blessed 5/Mystic Theurge 5 is strictly worse than Blessed 10, but it's like people going Wizard5/Ultimate Magus 5. Hilariously silly, because the rules actually allow for it, but not the intent of the class. It's just that Blessed 1/Druid2/Combo casting classes 17 is actually possibly, and, dare I say it, viable.

Jokasti
2009-10-12, 12:02 AM
I'm sorry what?
By the law, I meant clerics and wizards. Usually in campaigns I play or DM, the are the law in the major cities. And by running, I meant... running. And by playing children's card games with her, I meant.... Jk.
The law, and the lawful alignment aren't always the exact same thing, is what I guess I'm trying to sya.

Stompy
2009-10-12, 12:04 AM
Good point. If it's even, evenly divide between arcane and divine, and on odd, choose. If your Int goes up, and an odd number becomes even, do the other. If I had 2 extra 0th, and 1 1st, then 1 0th is arcane, and 1 0th is divine, and i choose what the 1 is (say, arcane). But if my Int goes up, and I now have 2 1sts, then the other is divine.

In all fairness, I would think it is a better option to give it to both sides because:
- It's much simpler than your odd/evens thing quoted.
- Your bonus spells are at low levels anyway. (Change the table if this gives too many spells, but I don't see this being a huge problem.)
- INT is at best the 4th logical (powergame-wise) highest stat on the character.

This is my huge problem with your class. No offence. I feel that if I have to spend 10-20 minute reasoning as to what I get out of the class, followed by weird rules on rolling dice to see how many spells I get from a god/goddess, followed by your odd/even quoted rule on where my bonus INT-based spells cast should go in case of ties, then me as the person will not play the class, due to the effort of trying to understand it all.

One last point before I go to bed:


Yes, but the point of rolling for SPD is to see how much power the god decides to give you. It's like you already have a car, just how much gasoline do you have.

My main question is that why is my god so random? I'd think that my god (let's take the LG god right now) would not have an random set-up for my spells, and my spells per day would be based on his favor toward me, not based on randomness. I just don't get your justification on why these gods give out a random number of spells per day.

(I am assuming that there is a code of conduct that is supposed to be somewhere in this class, so that I lose my spells given to me by Mr. LG if I decide to push old ladies down the stairs in a very CE sort of way.)


So you know the spells, you just don't know how often you can use them.

...except that I do (per day), unless the DM wants to roll the dice in secret, calculate my spells per day, and then go through a bookkeeping nightmare, keeping track of want spells I cast that day.

EDIT:


By the law, I meant clerics and wizards. Usually in campaigns I play or DM, the are the law in the major cities. And by running, I meant... running.

Now things make sense. Now I understand why Bluff and Disguise are class skills. :smallsmile:

Jokasti
2009-10-12, 12:05 AM
Not an issue. I just find it a little annoying every time someone throws out "It takes 'em a hundred years to learn cantrips!" type of thing.



Right, and Blessed 5/Mystic Theurge 5 is strictly worse than Blessed 10, but it's like people going Wizard5/Ultimate Magus 5. Hilariously silly, because the rules actually allow for it, but not the intent of the class. It's just that Blessed 1/Druid2/Combo casting classes 17 is actually possibly, and, dare I say it, viable.

The only problem with that plan is that when your at 20, your pals the Wizard and Fighter are at like 23 because of XP costs towards multiclassing. So, even though I never thought of that, I think it's balanced.

Jokasti
2009-10-12, 12:09 AM
In all fairness, I would think it is a better option to give it to both sides because:
- It's much simpler than your odd/evens thing quoted.
- Your bonus spells are at low levels anyway. (Change the table if this gives too many spells, but I don't see this being a huge problem.)
- INT is at best the 4th logical (powergame-wise) highest stat on the character.

This is my huge problem with your class. No offence. I feel that if I have to spend 10-20 minute reasoning as to what I get out of the class, followed by weird rules on rolling dice to see how many spells I get from a god/goddess, followed by your odd/even quoted rule on where my bonus INT-based spells cast should go in case of ties, then me as the person will not play the class, due to the effort of trying to understand it all.

One last point before I go to bed:



My main question is that why is my god so random? I'd think that my god (let's take the LG god right now) would not have an random set-up for my spells, and my spells per day would be based on his favor toward me, not based on randomness. I just don't get your justification on why these gods give out a random number of spells per day.

(I am assuming that there is a code of conduct that is supposed to be somewhere in this class, so that I lose my spells given to me by Mr. LG if I decide to push old ladies down the stairs in a very CE sort of way.)



...except that I do (per day), unless the DM wants to roll the dice in secret, calculate my spells per day, and then go through a bookkeeping nightmare, keeping track of want spells I cast that day.
The Gods aren't random at all. If Bahamut Blesses you, and you roll less than average for your first day, then Bahamut was testing your abilities.
And yes, while you don't need to be within one step of your deities alignment, you can't be polar opposites, or do things that would have you change your alignment/ anger your god. See the clerics rules for that.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-10-12, 12:09 AM
The only problem with that plan is that when your at 20, your pals the Wizard and Fighter are at like 23 because of XP costs towards multiclassing. So, even though I never thought of that, I think it's balanced.

As has been previously mentioned, the sample character would be a human. Humans have Favored Class (Whatever). More importantly, prestige classes never count towards multiclassing penalties.

Also, everyone knows that Fighters never make it to epic.:smalltongue:

Jokasti
2009-10-12, 12:12 AM
As has been previously mentioned, the sample character would be a human. Humans have Favored Class (Whatever). More importantly, prestige classes never count towards multiclassing penalties.

Also, everyone knows that Fighters never make it to epic.:smalltongue:

Oh snap. I thought the Human thing only worked with the first two base classes, then after that, XP Penalties abounding.

Hyooz
2009-10-12, 12:15 AM
Ok, if I ignore the flavor of this class completely and evaluate it strictly on mechanical merit: It doesn't have any.

No player in their right mind would look at a class where one of the primary class features has, in its description 'this might randomly go away, or just become useless." No one is thinking that those two wizard spells are nice, but boy I wish I could pick those two divine ones instead, and only those two.

The main problem here is that the class lacks focus. You're hurting the casting because the class is supposed to eventually rely on melee. You hurt the melee because it is primarily a caster class. These blessings do so little to fill the gaps. Yes, jumping my BAB up is good, but my casting is taking a major hit by not boosting that. Those kinds of things aren't about focusing the class, it just makes you wonder, if you take the 3/4 BAB blessing, why you didn't just roll a paladin or fighter. They at least KNOW what's going to happen to them today, and don't have to worry that their LG deity will randomly **** with them and give them no spells, especially if they've focused on spells.

The question comes down to 'why would I play this class?' Would I play this class if I wanted to play a caster? No, I'd probably play a class that gets a decent number of spells known, and a reliable set of spells/day. Would I play this class to go melee? No, I'd play a fighter or martial adept. Would I play this if I wanted to go gish? No, I'd go duskblade. You see what I'm getting at? This class excels at nothing.

Not only that, but I'm creating a rift in my party. Even if it is just V/Belkar 'teasing,' that still stems from a deep dislike for the other person, that should eventually come to a head. V gets to explosive runes Belkar all the time, but that's because stories are funny and Belkar doesn't have to keep track of his HP. The way you describe this is more like V being mad at Elan when he was going to multiclass wizard. V RAGED at Elan, and probably only held back from arcane retribution because, well, V kind of likes the guy.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-10-12, 12:16 AM
Oh snap. I thought the Human thing only worked with the first two base classes, then after that, XP Penalties abounding.

Nope, human works with the character's highest base class. Again, though, it's the fact that the prestige classes never count towards multiclassing penalties. Dwarf Half-orc Fighter 6/Barbarian1/Horizon Walker 4 still doesn't have any penalty.

Also, officially, every ten-level long prestige class has an epic advancement, so, the character would theoretically grab more levels in Arcane Heirophant. Even if Epic Arcane Heirophant does not exist, taking more levels in druid and/or pre-epic Mystic Theurge is legit.

Jokasti
2009-10-12, 09:19 PM
Editted and re-flavored the Blessed. I think this version makes more sense. The spells per day are still random, but less so.

As a note, I just wanted to point out that it won't be hard to get extra spells per day with high enough scores.

Bad Situation
2009-10-13, 07:36 PM
This is a very MAD class. It needs high mental stats to be a viable caster, and from the looks of things you also want the class to be able to melee, which makes it more MAD. Heck, your sample character had stats out the wazoo having spent all of his money on stat boosting items (I'm pretty sure you can't wear 2 cloaks and 2 amulets at the same time either btw). I didn't like the rolling for spells per day feature, that seems to me like unnecessary bookwork.

I was also wondering why this class has a good reflex score, that seems out of place on a caster like this.

I also don't get the whole clerics and wizards hunting him down thing, but if that's how it works in your campaign world then it doesn't really matter to me.

Averagedog
2009-10-13, 07:39 PM
the magic item compendium says you can stack the effects of other magical items of the same item affinity onto others for a cost of 1.5 times the base cost for each added effect. for instance if you had a cloak of charisma plus 2 with the added affect of a cloak of resistance + 1 the total cost would be 5,500 gold since the cost of the cloak affect is mutiplied by 1.5 x.

Jokasti
2009-10-13, 11:45 PM
This is a very MAD class. It needs high mental stats to be a viable caster, and from the looks of things you also want the class to be able to melee, which makes it more MAD. Heck, your sample character had stats out the wazoo having spent all of his money on stat boosting items (I'm pretty sure you can't wear 2 cloaks and 2 amulets at the same time either btw). I didn't like the rolling for spells per day feature, that seems to me like unnecessary bookwork.

I was also wondering why this class has a good reflex score, that seems out of place on a caster like this.

I also don't get the whole clerics and wizards hunting him down thing, but if that's how it works in your campaign world then it doesn't really matter to me.

I'm making the melee part less important and focusing on the casting now.
You only have to roll them once a meeting, I don't think that's too hard.
I had Blessed with good Reflexes when they were running from clerics, and I changed that, and forgot to change the Reflex Save. Thanks for pointing it out.
And I changed that too.


the magic item compendium says you can stack the effects of other magical items of the same item affinity onto others for a cost of 1.5 times the base cost for each added effect. for instance if you had a cloak of charisma plus 2 with the added affect of a cloak of resistance + 1 the total cost would be 5,500 gold since the cost of the cloak affect is mutiplied by 1.5 x.
Well, then I guess I would lower the bonuses on a few to make it work, but I'm lazy about that sort of thing.

Averagedog
2009-10-14, 12:14 AM
In my opinion, you should balance this class based on CORE unless it is supposed to specifically access things outside of it. What I said about the magic item compendium only applies if the DM of whomever is using your character class allows it.

Jokasti
2009-10-14, 12:20 AM
In my opinion, you should balance this class based on CORE unless it is supposed to specifically access things outside of it. What I said about the magic item compendium only applies if the DM of whomever is using your character class allows it.
It's not supposed to. In campaigns I've played my DM's want us to stick to core rulebooks unless otherwise stated. And how would one go about balancing based on core?

Averagedog
2009-10-14, 12:22 AM
good point considering that not all classes have the same relative power levels :P. Stupid Tiers.

Glimbur
2009-10-16, 01:04 PM
Does temporary Int give more spells known? For example, if I cast Fox's Cunning on a Blessed with 12 base Int, does he get to choose another first level spell known for as long as the intelligence boost lasts?

If Int with a set duration doesn't help, does a Circlet of Intelligence help?

I would advise you to take the same route skill points do and only allow natural Int to count. Otherwise you run the risk of characters casting Fox's Cunning to get a particular spell known for a little while; then next time they need a different spell of that level they just cast Fox's Cunning again choose a different spell known. It's more flexibility than you seem to want.

Jokasti
2009-10-16, 01:22 PM
Does temporary Int give more spells known? For example, if I cast Fox's Cunning on a Blessed with 12 base Int, does he get to choose another first level spell known for as long as the intelligence boost lasts?

If Int with a set duration doesn't help, does a Circlet of Intelligence help?

I would advise you to take the same route skill points do and only allow natural Int to count. Otherwise you run the risk of characters casting Fox's Cunning to get a particular spell known for a little while; then next time they need a different spell of that level they just cast Fox's Cunning again choose a different spell known. It's more flexibility than you seem to want.

That's a good point.
Do base spellcasting classes get more spells per day with Owl's Wisdom or Eagle's Splendor? I'll make it the same for Blessed.
That's interesting. I'll add the only natural for Intelligence for sure though.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-10-16, 03:05 PM
That's a good point.
Do base spellcasting classes get more spells per day with Owl's Wisdom or Eagle's Splendor? I'll make it the same for Blessed.
That's interesting. I'll add the only natural for Intelligence for sure though.

RAW, [Animal]'s [Stat] never allow for more spells per day, but that's due to the clause stating that it's simply because the spells do not last long enough for the bonus spells to come into play. If you go around persisting Owl's Wisdom and or Eagle's Splendor, than you've effectively got yourself a +4 stat item without the slot.

Jokasti
2009-10-16, 03:08 PM
Then the same is true for Blessed.

Jokasti
2009-11-11, 08:46 PM
Bump for justice.