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View Full Version : Mayans Annoyed by 2012 Doomsday Predictions



kpenguin
2009-10-11, 11:56 PM
I feel their pain. They bug me too. (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5geddMD9F2E4JN9acD5IJvqHtll9AD9B8P09G0)

Katana_Geldar
2009-10-12, 12:11 AM
There are Mayans still around?

Tavar
2009-10-12, 12:14 AM
Yes. After their main civilization collapsed they retreated to the hills.

Cobra_Ikari
2009-10-12, 12:14 AM
There are Mayans still around?

Yes. The descendants of the survivors of the last doomsday. *nodnod*

kpenguin
2009-10-12, 12:14 AM
Well, yeah.

Robek
2009-10-12, 12:20 AM
I call government cover-up shenanigans. :smalleek:

Katana_Geldar
2009-10-12, 12:22 AM
I hardly think governments were that capable back then.

Robek
2009-10-12, 12:25 AM
Not back then, now. Who's to say that the tribal elder even exists. It could all be a government lie to stop panics. Illuminati, One world government, and other silliness. :smalltongue:

SoD
2009-10-12, 12:30 AM
Apparantly they have real concerns. Like rain.

I'm concerned about rain as well. We don't get enough. Well, we do, but when it rains, my work is easier.

Copacetic
2009-10-12, 12:32 AM
Oh no, we shouldn't worry about that. We'll all be dead of swine flu long before then.

It just goes to show human nature will find anything to be absolutely terrified of even when it's nothing at all.

Haruki-kun
2009-10-12, 12:34 AM
There are Mayans still around?

Of course. They mostly keep to themselves, and some of the most traditional ones even refuse to teach their children to speak Maya if their of mixed blood, but they're still around. If you visit the Yucatan Peninsula (which you should, because that place is beautiful), you'll find most signs in three languages: Spanish, English and Maya. A lot of them don't speak Spanish.


....because western myths are "exhausted".

I don't know why, but I laughed at this. :smallbiggrin:

Em Blackleaf
2009-10-12, 12:55 AM
Nuh-uh, Mayans are a myth. :smalltongue:

I agree with Azure Butterfly. If it isn't the apocalypse (in one way or another) it's some kind of epidemic.

Elm11
2009-10-12, 02:34 AM
I find this quite amusing. The mayan calender gets on my nerves because so many people i know trust it, despite the fact there is no reason to believe it. Most of them actually think the world will end in 2012 because this calender says so, and most of them don't know a thing about it. It's like me coming up to my friend and saying "oh hai did you hear about this guy named nostradamus he predicted 9/11 coz he drew a picture of a burning building at one point in his life (a claim made by a "documentry" i watched on him a while ago) and my friend instantly believing it, without even knowing who nostradamus was.

I'm just going to laugh on the 22nd of december, 2012.

Kalbron
2009-10-12, 03:29 AM
I'm just going to laugh on the 22nd of december, 2012.

You do realise that, the same as with the swine flu and <insert current topical doomsday scenario>, that they'll simply push back the date by a few years saying "Oh, we actually translated/interpreted it wrong, it's really going to be then not now!"

There's a ton of money in doomsday and just general scaremongering, why do you think so many do it?

kamikasei
2009-10-12, 03:30 AM
The mayan calender gets on my nerves because so many people i know trust it, despite the fact there is no reason to believe it. Most of them actually think the world will end in 2012 because this calender says so, and most of them don't know a thing about it.

Trust it? Says so? The whole fuss is over the equivalent of rolling over from 999 to 1000. It doesn't say anything, it just runs out of digits and wraps.

Ganurath
2009-10-12, 03:43 AM
I can't help but wonder how many people have considered the possibility that the Mayans simply used a major astrological event as a zero point on the calendar, like the birth of Christ being the zero point between BC and AD. The only difference is that this zero point hasn't happened yet, but we know exactly when it's going to happen... A flawless baseline, really.

Starscream
2009-10-12, 03:51 AM
I actually know a few people who take this seriously. I'm hoping as 2012 draws closer that I can convince them to give me their stuff. They won't need it, what with the world ending and all.

Yes, I'll give it back eventually. But they must agree to put up with my insufferable "told you so" attitude first.:smallwink:

kamikasei
2009-10-12, 03:56 AM
I can't help but wonder how many people have considered the possibility that the Mayans simply used a major astrological event as a zero point on the calendar, like the birth of Christ being the zero point between BC and AD. The only difference is that this zero point hasn't happened yet, but we know exactly when it's going to happen... A flawless baseline, really.

Why on earth would you want a calendar that counts up to a date in the future?

Serpentine
2009-10-12, 04:00 AM
Why not? I can't really think of any reason why it makes less sense than counting from a date...


I hardly think governments were that capable back then.Shortly before the Conquistadors arrived, the Aztec rulers destroyed all (or most) historical documents and rewrote them to their own ends. If that's not a government cover-up, I don't know what is.

Kalbron
2009-10-12, 04:00 AM
Why on earth would you want a calendar that counts up to a date in the future?

Could be like Terry Pratchett's trolls' beliefs, and we all started in the future and are currently in the process of moving towards the past. :smallbiggrin:

kamikasei
2009-10-12, 04:34 AM
Why not? I can't really think of any reason why it makes less sense than counting from a date...

But if the zero point of the calendar is in the future, you'd expect it to be counting down.

Killer Angel
2009-10-12, 05:06 AM
Mayan Priest: hey, how you're going with the calendar?
Mayan Sculptor: not too bad: i've reached the (equivalent of) december 2012
Mayan Priest: :smallmad:... are you crazy? What's the need in going so far?!? Stop RIGHT NOW! and goes to harvest, before i decide to sacrifice you!

toasty
2009-10-12, 05:06 AM
But if the zero point of the calendar is in the future, you'd expect it to be counting down.

Down to the point where you start again? Just like on the Gregorian calendar one counts up to the point where the calendar restarts itself?

As for the whole 2012 is the end of the world thing... no it can't be. The world can't end until I'm dead. :smallbiggrin:

_Zoot_
2009-10-12, 05:09 AM
I actually know a few people who take this seriously. I'm hoping as 2012 draws closer that I can convince them to give me their stuff. They won't need it, what with the world ending and all.

Yes, I'll give it back eventually. But they must agree to put up with my insufferable "told you so" attitude first.:smallwink:

Now thats a good idea!

charl
2009-10-12, 05:14 AM
The Mayan calender ends at 2012 because they ran out of numbers and space to write them on at that time. It was simply a convenient place to stop counting. Kind of like how Western calenders end each December. Doesn't mean the world ends each New Year's Eve, though.

Apocalypse 2012 is just idiotic.

GallóglachMaxim
2009-10-12, 07:00 AM
Hang on, they mention that the long count actually goes beyond 2012 as if that's new information? The Maya calendar features the longest unit of time in any calendar, the alautun, it measures periods of (approximately) twenty-six million years (and it'll be longer than that before that measurement becomes relevant). The only thing that 'ends' in 2012 is the rotation of the largest unit of time currently used, which is then replaced with an even bigger one, and in several thousand years that runs out, so another bigger one comes in.
The Maya had an insanely long-term perspective on time, and it's unfortunate that alarmists are jumping all over incorrect information, but that is what they do.

(Edit, because I missed it the first time)


You do realise that, the same as with the swine flu and <insert current topical doomsday scenario>, that they'll simply push back the date by a few years saying "Oh, we actually translated/interpreted it wrong, it's really going to be then not now!"

There's a ton of money in doomsday and just general scaremongering, why do you think so many do it?

Well the Maya did miscalculate the length of a solar year (they skipped the loose six hours on the end), so if people really want to go on with this, they've got a good excuse right there.

CapedLuigiYoshi
2009-10-12, 09:24 AM
Trust it? Says so? The whole fuss is over the equivalent of rolling over from 999 to 1000. It doesn't say anything, it just runs out of digits and wraps.

This. This is correct.

I'm not sure if I have the authority to do so, but I'll try to vote you as winner of the thread.

Seriously, it's like New Year's.

Telonius
2009-10-12, 09:28 AM
I am a bit bothered by all of the 2012 predictions. What I can say is that I'm going to have one seriously epic birthday party when it happens. (And hopefully it won't be so epic that it actually brings about the prophecy). :smallbiggrin:

EleventhHour
2009-10-12, 09:30 AM
I think we should start hiding references to some date a thousand or two years from now, just in case our civilization gets destroyed, they'll have the sneaking suspicion that we knew when the world would end. Better still, since GitP is an international community, it'll be all over the planet.

:smallbiggrin:

Myrmex
2009-10-12, 09:33 AM
Shortly before the Conquistadors arrived, the Aztec rulers destroyed all (or most) historical documents and rewrote them to their own ends. If that's not a government cover-up, I don't know what is.

Do you have any evidence for that; a wikipage or something.

Cause I know after the Conquistadors arrived, the Spanish destroyed everything but two codices or something like that. That was an Inquisition, though. Quasi-governmental, I guess.

kamikasei
2009-10-12, 09:57 AM
Do you have any evidence for that; a wikipage or something.

Haven't checked sources, but you asked for a wikipage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec#Rise_of_the_Triple_Alliance).


Two of the primary architects of the Aztec empire were the half-brothers Tlacaelel and Montezuma I, nephews of Itzcoatl. Moctezuma I succeeded Itzcoatl as Hueyi Tlatoani in 1440. Although he was also offered the opportunity to be tlatoani, Tlacaelel preferred to operate as the power behind the throne. Tlacaelel reformed the Aztec state and religion. According to some sources, he ordered the burning of most of the extant Aztec books claiming that they contained lies. He thereupon rewrote the history of the Aztec people, thus creating a common awareness of history for the Aztecs.

Castaras
2009-10-12, 10:00 AM
I think we should start hiding references to some date a thousand or two years from now, just in case our civilization gets destroyed, they'll have the sneaking suspicion that we knew when the world would end. Better still, since GitP is an international community, it'll be all over the planet.

:smallbiggrin:

don't be silly, everyone knows that the world ends in 7331. duh. :smalltongue:

Cobra_Ikari
2009-10-12, 10:06 AM
I think we should start hiding references to some date a thousand or two years from now, just in case our civilization gets destroyed, they'll have the sneaking suspicion that we knew when the world would end. Better still, since GitP is an international community, it'll be all over the planet.

:smallbiggrin:

How deliciously evil. But we'll have to carve it into rocks, or something. Outlasts apocalypses better, and makes us look more mysterious and cultish.

Also, Cassie...the Year of the Anti-Leet? That's no apocalypse at all! =P

Eldariel
2009-10-12, 10:18 AM
You know all those capsules we're preserving in the base rock in case we accidentally wipe out this planet and so on? We should totally engrave the doomsday predictions on said capsules.

They'll be found a 1000 years into the future when everyone's forgotten about them and people will figure out that the contents of the capsules is supposed to be used to survive the doomsday or something.

Myrmex
2009-10-12, 10:21 AM
Haven't checked sources, but you asked for a wikipage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec#Rise_of_the_Triple_Alliance).

Ah, thanks.

Helanna
2009-10-12, 10:35 AM
Honestly, the fact that some people really do believe the world is going to end both astonishes and terrifies me. I mean, as the date draws closer I'll probably jokingly join in on the doomsday prophecies and whatnot, but to actually believe that? Like everyone else has said, the calendar just stopped at a convenient location. Hell, it doesn't even stop, it just switches to a larger unit.

Anyway, I predict the next apocalypse scare is going to happen in 2018. I mean, look at this pattern:

2000 - "Oh no! A new millennium! One of these has NEVER happened before! Surely the world is doomed!" They were off by a year anyway, the millennium didn't start 'til 2001.

2006 - "Oh no! This year contains the date 06/06/06! Surely some demonic influence is going to destroy the world this year!" That date doesn't really read 666 and shouldn't they be worried about the number 616 anyway?

And now 2012. Really, these dates are all completely arbitrary! We chose a random year and labeled it "0"! Nobody knows the exact year of Christ's birth, so all these doomsday predictions are just based off of a random date anyway!

EleventhHour
2009-10-12, 10:39 AM
And now 2012. Really, these dates are all completely arbitrary! We chose a random year and labeled it "0"! Nobody knows the exact year of Christ's birth, so all these doomsday predictions are just based off of a random date anyway!

They changed to to Before Common Era, and Common Era.

...because being politically correct to immigrants/other cultures is more important than the fact that we had it written that way for a few hundred years now. (I hate to think of the mess if they go and try to change old goverment documents. The Brit's would have a mountain of it...)

Crixon
2009-10-12, 10:39 AM
Me i felt 2012 would be a bad year for me before i even heard of the 2012 stuff, well more to the point i felt i would not live past my 25th birthday which happens to be in 2012, then a friend told me something about the mayan calander ending in 2012 and was like ... umm ok what ever, then recently ive seen all this stuff about 2012 world ending and ya, if the world ends, it ends theres not much to do about it, if it doesnt then alot of people will be getting free stuff :D

Cobra_Ikari
2009-10-12, 10:42 AM
Honestly, the fact that some people really do believe the world is going to end both astonishes and terrifies me. I mean, as the date draws closer I'll probably jokingly join in on the doomsday prophecies and whatnot, but to actually believe that? Like everyone else has said, the calendar just stopped at a convenient location. Hell, it doesn't even stop, it just switches to a larger unit.

Anyway, I predict the next apocalypse scare is going to happen in 2018. I mean, look at this pattern:

2000 - "Oh no! A new millennium! One of these has NEVER happened before! Surely the world is doomed!" They were off by a year anyway, the millennium didn't start 'til 2001.

2006 - "Oh no! This year contains the date 06/06/06! Surely some demonic influence is going to destroy the world this year!" That date doesn't really read 666 and shouldn't they be worried about the number 616 anyway?

And now 2012. Really, these dates are all completely arbitrary! We chose a random year and labeled it "0"! Nobody knows the exact year of Christ's birth, so all these doomsday predictions are just based off of a random date anyway!

...maybe rampant doomsaying is our generation's way of justifying not planning very far into the future. Since, you know, we'll all be dead anyway. =P

That said, I'm opening my Christmas presents 5 days early that year. =3

kamikasei
2009-10-12, 10:48 AM
We chose a random year and labeled it "0"!

"1", actually. There was no Year Zero.


...because being politically correct to immigrants/other cultures is more important than the fact that we had it written that way for a few hundred years now.

"We've been doing it this way for ages" is not a very strong argument for continuing to do anything. That's as much as I'll say on that as it begins to edge into political discussion.

Haruki-kun
2009-10-12, 10:52 AM
I think we should start hiding references to some date a thousand or two years from now, just in case our civilization gets destroyed, they'll have the sneaking suspicion that we knew when the world would end. Better still, since GitP is an international community, it'll be all over the planet.

:smallbiggrin:

I was seriously just about to suggest this. :smallbiggrin:

For the lulz.


"1", actually. There was no Year Zero.

This is correct. 2009 is the year we're IN, not how many years have gone by.

Faulty
2009-10-12, 11:05 AM
Oh no, we shouldn't worry about that. We'll all be dead of swine flu long before then.

It just goes to show human nature will find anything to be absolutely terrified of even when it's nothing at all.

We're hard wired to find possible threats in our environments. It's part of survival. Conspiracy theorists just have hyperactivity danger senses.

Mercenary Pen
2009-10-12, 11:12 AM
They changed to to Before Common Era, and Common Era.

...because being politically correct to immigrants/other cultures is more important than the fact that we had it written that way for a few hundred years now. (I hate to think of the mess if they go and try to change old goverment documents. The Brit's would have a mountain of it...)

From a brit- we mostly just stick with BC and AD regardless.and everyone knows that the end of the world will occur on 18th April 2666

Haruki-kun
2009-10-12, 11:15 AM
We're hard wired to find possible threats in our environments. It's part of survival. Conspiracy theorists just have hyperactivity danger senses.

Not to mention the media sells A LOT with that sort of thing. In away it's really our fault for being interested.

CrimsonAngel
2009-10-12, 11:15 AM
Oh god, some rock with numbers on it is telling us when to die. Only the rebelious people will disobey this rock and live. :smallsmile:

Dr. Bath
2009-10-12, 11:48 AM
Well the world IS going to end in 2012, but not because of the mayans. After the end of the Olympic games in London the thrusters positioned around the great isle of Albion will ignite and blast us into orbit, opening a vast gulf in the earth's surface. From this rent in Gaia's flesh untold hordes of gibbering demons shall spew forth to consume the Earth (but France first. It was our plan all along! Ahaha!) in hellfire and sulphurous fumes. All the while Britain will drift off into the stars to forge a new galactic empire. Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle country.

Dammit. I was supposed to say that. YOU HEARD NOTHING.

Madmal
2009-10-12, 11:59 AM
This is why i don't like Indiana Jones movies. People can be dumb enough to believe pancho Villa was from Perú, or that Ica and Cuzco are near.

And Wikipedia is not an accepted reference outside of forums. i should know, i've studied that.

Elfin
2009-10-12, 12:03 PM
I read that article in the Chronicle...rather amusing. Although I wonder if it wasn't slipped in as a sales pitch for the movie 2012.

bluewind95
2009-10-12, 12:12 PM
Hang on, they mention that the long count actually goes beyond 2012 as if that's new information? The Maya calendar features the longest unit of time in any calendar, the alautun, it measures periods of (approximately) twenty-six million years (and it'll be longer than that before that measurement becomes relevant). The only thing that 'ends' in 2012 is the rotation of the largest unit of time currently used, which is then replaced with an even bigger one, and in several thousand years that runs out, so another bigger one comes in.
The Maya had an insanely long-term perspective on time, and it's unfortunate that alarmists are jumping all over incorrect information, but that is what they do.


This. Like it's been said, 2012 is a kind of Mayan New Year. Can something huge happen that year? Sure, why not? There's a chance of something huge, like a disaster or something, happening every single day. Will something happen that year? Who knows! But if anything DOES happen, rest assured it will be blown out of proportion and said to be the predictions of the Mayans.

Haruki-kun
2009-10-12, 12:23 PM
I read that article in the Chronicle...rather amusing. Although I wonder if it wasn't slipped in as a sales pitch for the movie 2012.

I dunno, but that's a movie I won't be seeing. Sounds like yet another end-of-the-world flick with no plot or substance.

Illiterate Scribe
2009-10-12, 12:23 PM
I don't think all the swine flu bashing is that fair - all the invisible (to us) work that health professionals, border authorities and governments do to deal with the crises sends them into a lose-lose situation.

If they do put measures in place that limit the likelihood of epidemic, then it's less likely to happen and so we call them scaremongers.

If they don't put measures in place, then if something does happen, we call them evil, stupid, short-sighted, and start lynching them.

Haruki-kun
2009-10-12, 12:27 PM
I don't think all the swine flu bashing is that fair - all the invisible (to us) work that health professionals, border authorities and governments do to deal with the crises sends them into a lose-lose situation.

The improperly-named swine flu has now been dismissed as a media scare because there was already a medicine which fortunately worked against it. Even though it wasn't really designed for it. If this medicine hadn't existed... things would have gotten seriously out of hand.

kamikasei
2009-10-12, 02:06 PM
And Wikipedia is not an accepted reference outside of forums.

Did someone give the impression they thought otherwise?

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-10-12, 02:25 PM
I dunno, but that's a movie I won't be seeing. Sounds like yet another end-of-the-world flick with no plot or substance.

There was a trailer for it before I saw "Zombieland" on Saturday, and judging by what I saw of it, you're right.

Besides, the Mayans believed that the end of the world (regardless of whether or not it actually falls in 2012) would be a release of the cosmic energy that has been building since the beginning of time. If anything, it'd just look like a bright flash of light and then that'll be the end of it. None of this "ground collapsing into a void below" garbage.

Illiterate Scribe
2009-10-12, 02:28 PM
The improperly-named swine flu has now been dismissed as a media scare because there was already a medicine which fortunately worked against it. Even though it wasn't really designed for it. If this medicine hadn't existed... things would have gotten seriously out of hand.

Errrrrr ...

... which medicine?

Who dismissed it?

Lord_Gareth
2009-10-12, 02:46 PM
Here's a scary thought:

There are people who consider the end of the world to be a good thing, for various reasons that I will not name but that you are all aware of anyway. Some of these people are in important governmental positions all over the world. It's quite possible that fanatacism/stupidity will end the world in 2012 simply because enough people think it should.

The Extinguisher
2009-10-12, 02:55 PM
Despite the fact that I've been saying the world isn't going to end from the start, I'm still holding an end of the world party on the 21st.

We're going to count down to midnight, and if the world does end, we'll be too drunk to care.

bosssmiley
2009-10-12, 02:57 PM
I think Spider Jerusalem put it best:

(paraphrase) "Why do we give so much credence to the prophecies of a culture that didn't know enough to keep rotting bodies out of their drinking water?"

742
2009-10-12, 03:08 PM
The Mayan calender ends at 2012 because they ran out of numbers and space to write them on at that time. It was simply a convenient place to stop counting. Kind of like how Western calenders end each December. Doesn't mean the world ends each New Year's Eve, though.

Apocalypse 2012 is just idiotic.

yes it does, and it is, the world is going to end at midnight on new years. everything before january first this year was all imagined.

Mewtarthio
2009-10-12, 03:53 PM
I dunno, but that's a movie I won't be seeing. Sounds like yet another end-of-the-world flick with no plot or substance.

Not just any end-of-the-world flick with no plot or substance. From what I can tell, this is an end-of-the-world flick with exactly zero plot and substance. It's like they finally realized how much they suck at storytelling, and decided to just make a movie in which random crap explodes for no reason.

SurlySeraph
2009-10-12, 04:08 PM
There was a trailer for it before I saw "Zombieland" on Saturday, and judging by what I saw of it, you're right.

Besides, the Mayans believed that the end of the world (regardless of whether or not it actually falls in 2012) would be a release of the cosmic energy that has been building since the beginning of time. If anything, it'd just look like a bright flash of light and then that'll be the end of it. None of this "ground collapsing into a void below" garbage.

What about the part where an aircraft carrier smashes into the White House? The Mayans totally predicted that, right?

CapedLuigiYoshi
2009-10-12, 10:49 PM
I think Spider Jerusalem put it best:

(paraphrase) "Why do we give so much credence to the prophecies of a culture that didn't know enough to keep rotting bodies out of their drinking water?"

Steakit, now I'm regretting voting the other guy as thread winner.:smalltongue:

But really? They did that? Leaving corpses in the rivers?

Lappy9000
2009-10-12, 10:58 PM
don't be silly, everyone knows that the world ends in 7331. duh. :smalltongue:You, Madam, just made my day :smallbiggrin:

Serpentine
2009-10-13, 04:42 AM
Do you have any evidence for that; a wikipage or something.

Cause I know after the Conquistadors arrived, the Spanish destroyed everything but two codices or something like that. That was an Inquisition, though. Quasi-governmental, I guess.Thankfully Kamikasei offered a bit of something, cuz I just remember it being a passing reference in my Early Modern Europe (New World section) unit. I'll have a quick look at what else is available, though:
It's mentioned here (http://books.google.com.au/books?hl=en&lr=&id=vAIUk2xHTRcC&oi=fnd&pg=PA1&dq=Tlacaelel&ots=d0mL9grEaW&sig=tUJGhuSsp4lpolBY6RxkUev_SHo#v=onepage&q=Tlacaelel&f=false), and here (http://books.google.com.au/books?hl=en&lr=&id=5c_kHvlZ8qwC&oi=fnd&pg=PA104&dq=Tlacaelel+books+OR+documents+OR+texts+OR+codice s&ots=cy_XhL1-3R&sig=pIRPBSNUz5zo4KhgyNc0EDE6bDU#v=onepage&q=Tlacaelel%20books%20OR%20documents%20OR%20texts% 20OR%20codices&f=false) too but they don't give any contemporary sources.

GallóglachMaxim
2009-10-13, 05:13 AM
But really? They did that? Leaving corpses in the rivers?

It's one theory for why Maya urban civilisation collapsed. It is far from the craziest such theory.

OverdrivePrime
2009-10-13, 06:51 AM
:smallmad: We'll see who's laughing when VITAS hits next year, and in 2011, when babies start popping out as elves and dwarves.

2012 just signifies a shift into a new age, an age where magic is returns and people run the shadows for nuyen and karma points.



*hopes hopes hopes hopes hopes hopes hopes

Destro_Yersul
2009-10-13, 07:01 AM
And replacing their regular arms with cyberarms. Can't forget the cyberarms.

Those are important.

Zincorium
2009-10-13, 08:54 AM
I'm hoping for orkification into a troll, then signing up for all the beta-tests of new cyberware.

Being virtually immune to bullets? Yes, please.

kamikasei
2009-10-13, 09:01 AM
signing up for all the beta-tests of new cyberware.

I have three words for you: Hindi roach motels.Curious to see who knows what I'm talking about.

Illiterate Scribe
2009-10-13, 09:15 AM
I have three words for you: Hindi roach motels.Curious to see who knows what I'm talking about.

Didn't he commit suicide?

kamikasei
2009-10-13, 09:19 AM
Didn't he commit suicide?

Wouldn't anyone?