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Tavar
2009-10-12, 12:19 AM
Well, I haven't been drinking caffeine for some time now, and today I had 2 12oz coke zero's at about 8ish. Now I can't seem to fall asleep. Is this normal if you don't have it for several weeks?

That said, anyone have some good caffeine related stories?

Haruki-kun
2009-10-12, 12:43 AM
It's normal, I think. If you haven't had it for a while your body got used to not having it, so it gets a dose all of a sudden..... at least I think so. I wouldn't know, I don't usually go more than two or three days without caffeine. :smalltongue:

As for caffeine-related stories, I doubt I have any. Most caffeine-related stories are about pulling all-nighters. Not fun. :smallfrown:

Pyrian
2009-10-12, 12:50 AM
Haha, yeah, I've often found that caffeine is much better at creating insomnia than creating real wakefulness. :smalltongue:

Tavar
2009-10-12, 01:12 AM
As for caffeine-related stories, I doubt I have any. Most caffeine-related stories are about pulling all-nighters. Not fun. :smallfrown:

Very true. Looks like I'll be pulling an unintentional one, though.

Trog
2009-10-12, 01:34 AM
I am addicted to caffeine and have been for some time.

But I did quit all soda (and caffeine), cold turkey, for a full year once. I made it my New Year's resolution to cut out all caffeine. I had been up to a six pack of Mt. Dew a day and I was getting tired of needing it all the time. During this time period I saw the coming and going of Crystal Pepsi. I never got the chance to try it. Not that that is any big loss but still.

Three things I found out during this time:

1) It turned out I really wasn't as much of a night person and I thought I was. I still stayed up sort of late but I didn't have the difficulties getting to sleep like I had when I was consuming caffeine.

2) I found I still needed sugar. I changed over to fruit juice. I was not only addicted to the caffeine it seemed.

3) I was very very irritable for the first three weeks in January.

Eventually I started drinking soda again (largely diet) and since that time I've come to better recognize my reaction to caffeine and regulate my intake of it to levels that are not so disruptive. Still addicted but not to the point of needing a soda every two hours like I was before.

For those interested this site (http://www.energyfiend.com/the-caffeine-database) has an excellent and thorough break down of caffeine content in nearly all American drinks containing caffeine.

Katana_Geldar
2009-10-12, 01:38 AM
I can't drink coffee now, had too much when I was an undergrad. Gives me bad stomach :smallmad:

You know, until recently, I had no idea Mountain Dew in the US had caffeine in it. Here it's just another sugary drink.

toasty
2009-10-12, 02:42 AM
I had no idea Mountain Dew in the US had caffeine in it

... the only reason I know for drinking fizzy pee is BECAUSE of the caffeine.

I don't drink enough soda/coffee/tea to talk about caffeine. My parents swear by their coffee though. :smallbiggrin:

Hazkali
2009-10-12, 03:22 AM
I have a fairly low tolerance to caffeine. One or two coffees on top of my normal tea allowance and I start getting quite giddy and slightly light-headed. :smallbiggrin:

charl
2009-10-12, 03:28 AM
I'm pretty sure this topic is skirting on inappropriate discussion (the drug clause in the rules). Just thread carefully, guys.

HellfireLover
2009-10-12, 03:41 AM
When I was studying journalism in college, I was so caffeine-addicted, but then the whole class was. We used to beg our lecturer to let us run down to the refectory for a coffee run in the middle of classes. I used to keep an empty packet of 'Hot Lava Java' in my bag so I could have a surreptitious sniff of it if I was deprived of coffee for any length of time.

Then an Italian cafe opened and I discovered delicious, delicious espresso, which made me even worse. I've since discovered that working as a barista means that you reek of coffee grounds at all times and I got a right scunner.

Oh, when I worked as a utilities broker, we were pulling a heavy workload one day in the office and three of us demolished a case of energy drinks in an afternoon. I couldn't sit still for two days. :smallbiggrin:

Shikton
2009-10-12, 04:04 AM
I'm so addicted to coffee I snort ground beans like it's coke.

On a serious note, yeah, I'm semi-addicted to coffee. I can live without it, but I'm a better person after the first cup of the day. So I drink about 5-6 cups during the day at work.

I have a rule though: no coffee after I come home from work. Regardless of me not feeling any Kornholio-esque effects, it's still difficult to fall asleep at night if I have any coffee after 18:00.

Tried switching to tea, but that just felt wrong. Almost like I was cheating on the coffee. :smalleek:

Anuan
2009-10-12, 04:23 AM
I've since discovered that working as a barista means that you reek of coffee grounds at all times and I got a right scunner.

HFL works/worked as a barista?
+12 sexypoints, madam.

SoD
2009-10-12, 04:23 AM
I'm a real coffee addict. Booze, I can do without, but not my precious coffee. I'm about a 4-6 cup a day guy.

charl
2009-10-12, 04:52 AM
I'm so addicted to coffee I snort ground beans like it's coke.

I've actually tried doing that.


Don't.


On a side note I can only ever be bothered with coffee in school or when I otherwise have stuff to preoccupy my mind with, otherwise caffeine just makes me feel jittery, paranoid, depressed and gives me palpitations and stomach aches, plus cold sweats.

Katana_Geldar
2009-10-12, 05:05 AM
I got addicted to coffee as an undergrad, and it's scary!

Somehow my stomach knows what's better for me than my head.

Jack Squat
2009-10-12, 05:53 AM
I'm pretty sure this topic is skirting on inappropriate discussion (the drug clause in the rules). Just thread carefully, guys.

I'm fairly certain that only really pertains to illegal drugs.


I'm decently tolerant to caffeine. I wouldn't say I'm addicted (afterall, you're not until you try to quit :smalltongue:) as I've never had any problem going from drinking 120 oz of Mtn. Dew in one day to not having any pop for the next couple weeks. The tolerant part comes in with me tending to be the last one with physical symptoms of use (i.e. visibly shaky hands)...which is normally after ~400 mg (67.5 oz).

charl
2009-10-12, 06:01 AM
I'm fairly certain that only really pertains to illegal drugs.

Caffeine is illegal in some places, and even where it isn't there are a lot of good arguments why it should be just as illegal as say cocaine or amphetamine.

Dispozition
2009-10-12, 06:03 AM
I normally have a cup of coffee or mocha in the morning, not much past that...Although I do drink an awful lot of solo >.>

I could quit fairly easily I think, I'd just need a lot of milk.

Jack Squat
2009-10-12, 06:08 AM
Caffeine is illegal in some places.

Alcohol is too, but I seem to remember several threads discussing it.

Regardless of which set of laws it's referring to, do you have a source for this? I found some old info that it's banned in certain parts of northern Thailand, but haven't found any info on a national scale.

golentan
2009-10-12, 06:09 AM
I binge caffeinate. I'll go weeks without so much as looking at a cup of tea, then have 4 or 5 cups (my record was 8) in a single day. I haven't figured out what causes these cravings in general, but I know some specific cases.

charl
2009-10-12, 06:20 AM
Alcohol is too, but I seem to remember several threads discussing it.

Regardless of which set of laws it's referring to, do you have a source for this? I found some old info that it's banned in certain parts of northern Thailand, but haven't found any info on a national scale.

I don't think it exists on a national scale anywhere. It's parts of Thailand and I believe parts of Pakistan where it is illegal.

Though I never got any good answer to what jurisdiction the rules count for "illegal" from any moderator, so for all I know it could be using Pakistani laws, or Thai laws.

Though the thread hasn't been closed yet so I assume it's ok. I was just urging people to be careful, just in case.

toasty
2009-10-12, 06:26 AM
I don't think it exists on a national scale anywhere. It's parts of Thailand and I believe parts of Pakistan where it is illegal.

In the country I live (Bangladesh), the locals are not allowed to buy alcohol at all. Its only sold in some expensive Hotels and Elite Clubs, anyways. In a similar vein I'd assume Iran and Saudi banned the substance as well...

Edit: yes, Saudi Arabia does in fact ban alcohol. At least according to wikipedia.

charl
2009-10-12, 06:27 AM
In the country I live (Bangladesh), the locals are not allowed to buy alcohol at all. Its only sold in some expensive Hotels and Elite Clubs, anyways. In a similar vein I'd assume Iran and Saudi banned the substance as well...

Yes, but that's alcohol. We were talking about caffeine. Alcohol is illegal in many places.

Jack Squat
2009-10-12, 06:31 AM
Though I never got any good answer to what jurisdiction the rules count for "illegal" from any moderator, so for all I know it could be using Pakistani laws, or Thai laws.

The server is in Houston, Texas, so technically those laws apply. I think generally it's done by a common sense basis though, i.e. what's generally considered illegal.

charl
2009-10-12, 06:36 AM
The server is in Houston, Texas, so technically those laws apply. I think generally it's done by a common sense basis though, i.e. what's generally considered illegal.

I think the Texas thing is true and not the second, because if it was then being gay would be illegal on these forums (since it is in most places in the world, aka "generally"), which it clearly isn't.

GallóglachMaxim
2009-10-12, 06:37 AM
I discovered at the end of year twelve that I'm allergic to the stuff. Wrote my 8,000 word theatre portfolio overnight, the night before it was due, with reviews, illustrations and a set design project. Naturally, it's the kind of project that requires chemical assistance, so I was popping no-doze as I went along. Got the work done, but the next day I had a splitting headache and couldn't see. Naturally had that checked out and as it happens caffeine = head asplode.

toasty
2009-10-12, 06:41 AM
Yes, but that's alcohol. We were talking about caffeine. Alcohol is illegal in many places.

Oh, I thought it was alcohol you were referring too...

Justyn
2009-10-12, 06:45 AM
Caffeine is illegal in some places, and even where it isn't there are a lot of good arguments why it should be just as illegal as say cocaine or amphetamine.

It should be noted that the rule is typically enforced as, "Drugs or other things that are illegal in the US". Not illegal anywhere. So if some despot decides to outlaw, say, aspirin, a discussion on it would not be banned.

And a note: when someone from the US says "drugs", unless they are in a medical profession, they are typically referring to illegal narcotics (and before you ask: yes, there are legal narcotics).

charl
2009-10-12, 07:19 AM
It should be noted that the rule is typically enforced as, "Drugs or other things that are illegal in the US". Not illegal anywhere. So if some despot decides to outlaw, say, aspirin, a discussion on it would not be banned.

And a note: when someone from the US says "drugs", unless they are in a medical profession, they are typically referring to illegal narcotics (and before you ask: yes, there are legal narcotics).

Most illegal drug aren't actually narcotics, even. That term sees a whole lot of misuse.

BizzaroStormy
2009-10-12, 07:28 AM
I'm not addicted to caffeine, though I do get some mild withdrawl symptoms if I go without it for too long. What I'm really addicted to is the feeling of soda. I'm addicted to the carbonation. Honestly I'd love to just drink Jones Soda (no caffeine and uses pure cane sugar) but at $1 US for a 12 oz. bottle, it cuts severely into my $100/month food allowance.

However, from the hours of 5 AM to 12 PM, If I've had no caffeine, I'll be sleepy. You won't like me when I'm sleepy. In middle school, it was so bad that I got into a subconscious habit of throwing things at my parents when they tried to get me up in the morning. As well as an uncountable number of broken alarm clocks.

SMEE
2009-10-12, 07:31 AM
Coffee... coffee... coffee... :smalleek:

I can't live without coffee. And it's not any silly coffee that you put other things with or you can see through it.
It's pure black of dead raising coffee. So strong it could wake a dead man.

But coffee doesn't keep me awake. My body knows better after what happened in 1999. >.>

BooNL
2009-10-12, 08:00 AM
I'm a bit of a coffee nut myself. Though there's plenty of days I don't drink it most of the days I'm in a caffeinerush.

At work we have this terribly weak and pretty aweful coffee. I'm up to about 4-6 cups, but I'm trying to cut down. At home or in restaurants I usually drink ristretto's or double ristretto. A ristretto is a thickened cup of espresso, so a double ristretto is about four cups of espresso. I've been known to drink 5 of those in a row...

Funny stories: I had to give a training once for a group of quite familiar people (upper management of the hotel I worked in back then) and I had a bit too much coffee beforehand (about 6 or 7 espresso's). I wasn't incredibly nervous though my hands were shaking vigorously every time I tried to pick up my glass of water. Everyone thought I was terrified, but they hadn't seen the amounts of coffee I gulped an hour earlier!

Coffee preference scale:
Double ristretto
Ristretto
A good cappucino (and I really mean a good cappucino, the crema should be able to hold my spoon for at least 5 minutes)
Black coffee
Espresso

blackfox
2009-10-12, 09:37 AM
I like coffee... but caffeine drops my blood pressure. :smallfrown: Which is already pretty low. So if I drink any more caffeine than there is in a cup of decaf or something, I get symptoms.

@v: It metabolizes into theobromine, which is both a myocardial stimulant and vasodilator. And my blood pressure lives at 90/50 to begin with. =/

Pyrian
2009-10-12, 10:56 AM
It's supposed to raise blood pressure. :smallcool:

Haruki-kun
2009-10-12, 11:28 AM
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t288/Vaarsuvius89/Coffee.gif

CrimsonAngel
2009-10-12, 11:32 AM
I've never had coffee, what's it like?

Imeanallmylifei'vejustbeensoenergecticpeoplehaveal waysbeenaskingifi'mhighoroncaffeinbutseriouslyoneo fthesedaysimighthavetotryitthoughit'stobadidon'tli kehotdrinkshotfoodisallrighthough,whatwasitalkinga boutagain,crapiforgetit'skindofhardtotypewithouthi ttingspacealot.Woooooo.

Assassin89
2009-10-12, 11:37 AM
I don't drink coffee that often, but when I do, it is usually decaf. An iced coffee also appeals to my tastes, but usually for caffeine, I usually drink things like diet coke, diet Dr. Pepper, possibly diet Pepsi.

Tar Palantir
2009-10-12, 11:40 AM
I average about 8 cans of Mountain Dew a day, although it does vary quite a bit. I can go for a day or two without any at all, and then go to con and go through a 24 pack in an hour and a half and go play dodgeball with some furries (I won, by the way :smallbiggrin:). The minimum for sustained general functionality is 2-3 cans a day. No, I'm not an addict. Why do you say that?

Madmal
2009-10-12, 11:49 AM
Not much as a caffeine user here, just a cup mixed with milk per morning, and a coke zero from time to time, specially when i've been out more hours than normal.

Mountain dew? never seen a bottle of that where i live.

Red Bull? *hisses at can, making a cross sign*

Vizen
2009-10-12, 01:31 PM
Heh, Red Bull. You can find me drinking one or two of those every Saturday. Those long shifts on the checkouts can really tire you out, especially if you don't sleep a lot on Friday night.

I think the worst energy drink thing I've ever seen was these "Demon Shots". Now Demon in its normal size was some pretty high caffeine/taurine stuff. But they ended up making shot sized versions of it, but the dosage of caffeine and taurine was the same. Foul tasting, but damn it kept ya up.

I think they stopped selling them once a kid had a heart attack, or something along those lines.

Telonius
2009-10-12, 01:58 PM
Ahh, caffeine. I don't drink any soda, but coffee is my main source of not-falling-asleep-on-the-job. I've been drinking a lot more of it since my daughter was born (5 hours of sleep a night will do that to you....)

Mystic Muse
2009-10-12, 02:02 PM
I suddenly feel very good for only drinking two-three cans of soda a day when I have the chance.

Linkavitch
2009-10-12, 02:40 PM
Mountain Dew, FOREVER!! It's my favorite soda. I'll occasionally have other things, but at least 90% of the time, it's a dewski, if it's available.

Fostire
2009-10-12, 02:57 PM
I don't drink coffee, I find it's taste disgusting. instead I drink Red Bull for my caffeine needs. Also I must be the only person in the world who think Red Bull tastes good :smallbiggrin:

Tavar
2009-10-12, 02:58 PM
Actually, even before I stopped my caffeine intake I rarely drank coffee. My drink of choice was tea. Never could stand the energy drink stuff. Tastes horrible.

Miklus
2009-10-12, 03:28 PM
For those interested this site (http://www.energyfiend.com/the-caffeine-database) has an excellent and thorough break down of caffeine content in nearly all American drinks containing caffeine.

Thank you Trog, I have been wondering about that. So Diet Pepsi Max has twice the caffine of Coke Zero. I knew it! I could feel the difference.

Wow, there is a lot of caffine in coffee! I can't drink coffee, it gives me headaches.

I always drink suger free sodas. One of my coworkers has diabetes, I don't want that.

I'm going to limit myself to one cola per day...and no Pepsi. They make it hard to fall asleep.

Mystic Muse
2009-10-12, 03:49 PM
I don't drink coffee, I find it's taste disgusting. instead I drink Red Bull for my caffeine needs. Also I must be the only person in the world who think Red Bull tastes good :smallbiggrin:

I personally recall it tasting like cough syrup but my brother likes it.

You're the only TWO people in the world who like it.:smalltongue:

charl
2009-10-12, 03:54 PM
I don't mind the taste of Red Bull-style energy drinks actually. I'm not too happy about the acidity, but it is certainly a palatable drink (especially with some vodka in it). Not the best, but I wouldn't call it bad tasting.

Kneenibble
2009-10-12, 04:07 PM
SMEE, it pleases me when you discuss your taste in coffee -- a point I think we share, if not our taste in men. Most people I know make their coffee so weak, and with such stale crap grounds, it's not worth drinking even if the jolt was any better than licking a 9v battery. Gimme a black, opaque syrup with a rainbow shimmer on the surface that makes me its bitch, dammit! Otherwise it's probably not coffee.

A friend of mine from Brazil recently gave me the very, very generous gift of a beautiful mate gourd and bombilla. With it he gave me a package of yerba mate which is unlike anything I've bought here, it's almost like matcha in its texture and its piercingly green chlorophyll smell. It's really an amazing experience to drink this with the proper implements, and the buzz isn't like any caffeine buzz I've had before. And to preempt any misnomer corrections, yerba mate does, in fact, contain actual caffeine. Can anyone relate?

My best caffeine story is drinking an ungodly amount of green tea and staying up all night watching Miyazaki films -- the combination of caffeine, sleepdep, and trippy anime induced hallucinations and mania. It was good times, let's hear it for altered consciousness.

SMEE
2009-10-12, 04:33 PM
So you had some real chimarrão, Kneenibble? :smallamused:

That stuff is good, really good.
Expect to get some more yerba mate by the end of the year, then. :smallwink:

Dispozition
2009-10-12, 05:02 PM
Red Bull is tasty enough, but Mother is my favourite.

Moff Chumley
2009-10-12, 05:20 PM
I love coffee so, so much... not addicted, though.

Trog
2009-10-12, 05:28 PM
Wow, there is a lot of caffine in coffee! I can't drink coffee, it gives me headaches.
I'm not certain on how they prepared that coffee in that chart. If they made it in a typical coffee machine that uses a filter much of the essential oils in coffee which give it its flavor and also contain most of its caffeine are soaked up by the filter. French pressed coffee packs more punch flavor and caffeine. *hugs his bean grinder and his little single cup French press* :smallbiggrin:

Wolfbane
2009-10-12, 05:38 PM
Wow, this has made me realize that I haven't had coffee in over two weeks. :smalleek:

No wonder I've been tired.

Solaris
2009-10-12, 05:54 PM
Most illegal drug aren't actually narcotics, even. That term sees a whole lot of misuse.

Interestingly enough, you're steering the thread directly into the topic you warned us to avoid.
I'm just sayin'.

I don't drink caffeine at all. This gets doubly odd when you realize I'm in the Army. Even in Iraq, when I was doing night shift tower guard (eight hours on, eight hours off equals some sleep maybe) I didn't take energy drinks or coffee more than once or twice.

Thatguyoverther
2009-10-12, 06:02 PM
Once as a competition, me and a friend had a contest to see who could drink more coffee in a single sitting, without getting up for anything.

We tied at 14 cups.

I didn't sleep for two days. But I do that without the assistance of caffeine all the time.

Fostire
2009-10-12, 06:16 PM
I don't mind the taste of Red Bull-style energy drinks actually. I'm not too happy about the acidity, but it is certainly a palatable drink (especially with some vodka in it). Not the best, but I wouldn't call it bad tasting.

with vodka, huh?
*looks at bottle of vodka*
*looks at can of red bull*
*remembers he has a mid term tomorrow*
...maybe some other time


A friend of mine from Brazil recently gave me the very, very generous gift of a beautiful mate gourd and bombilla. With it he gave me a package of yerba mate which is unlike anything I've bought here, it's almost like matcha in its texture and its piercingly green chlorophyll smell. It's really an amazing experience to drink this with the proper implements, and the buzz isn't like any caffeine buzz I've had before. And to preempt any misnomer corrections, yerba mate does, in fact, contain actual caffeine. Can anyone relate?
Like coffee I dislike the taste of mate, mostly because of it's bitter flavour, and, since 99% of people in Uruguay drink that stuff, I always ended up looking like 'that weird kid' when I kindly refused to join people in drinking it (not accepting when someone offers you mate is a big faux pas in Uruguay).

If I recall correctly you live in Winnipeg, right? If so, I remember my parents mentioning that someone imported yerba mate when they lived there. Although that was 18 years ago so I don't know if that business is still going on, but I'm currently living in Winnipeg and I have some Argentinean friends that I could ask about it if you want.

Mercenary Pen
2009-10-12, 06:19 PM
I hate to say it, but my coffee intake is on the increase... I'm running at 6-10 cups a day at the moment.

Very rarely take caffeine in any other form, because I avoid energy drinks like the plague and I'm just not too keen on tea.

Weezer
2009-10-12, 06:25 PM
I love coffee (black, the real way to drink it) and energy drinks but for the flavor, not the caffeine.
Caffeine has never had much of an effect on me but probably in the last three years or so its minor effect has dwindled to none. I can drink a coffee with two shots of espresso in it and notice no discernible effects, no jitteryness, no enhanced wakefulness, no elevated heartbeat. Its rather irritating because I need to rely on willpower to stay up late when i inevitably procrastinate too long on papers.

thorgrim29
2009-10-12, 06:38 PM
much of the essential oils in coffee which give it its flavor and also contain most of its caffeine are soaked up by the filter.

For reals? But I like filter coffee (not the automatic vendor machine powdered crap) as much as I like my double cappuccinos, does that make me weird?

I used to drink my coffee black but the one at college is served too hot for that so I put a bit of milk in there now, but not so much as to drown the taste. And I typically drink a few cups of coffee in the morning, then maybe one during the day, and anything between one and 6 cups of tea in the evening. Other then that, I don't drink much caffeine if there's no alcohol in it, and no energy drinks, ever (well, I took a jagerball once because it was free)

Coffee keeps me awake during lectures, but if i take too much I get a headache and feel lightheaded. No such effect from tea.

Mystic Muse
2009-10-12, 06:53 PM
to everybody who likes energy drinks AND coffee why don't you get the best of both worlds?

http://www.farrelldistributing.com/images/java-monster-drink.jpg

loca mocha is actually pretty good last time I checked.

Moff Chumley
2009-10-12, 06:56 PM
I'm a big fan of pressed, iced coffee. Peet's Coffee is excellent; I make a point of picking up at least one cup a week. And they're pretty out of the way. :smallbiggrin: Peet's blended coffee is delicious. It's like a milk shake, but better. :smallcool:

Trog
2009-10-12, 07:25 PM
For reals?
Yup. (http://www.jlhufford.com/articles/frenchpress.asp) Though as the article mentions it varies depending on the grind and amount of steeping time. I usually use a coarse grind and about a three minute steep or so. Caffeine content is probably similar to brewed in that case but it definitely has more flavor than if I made the same coffee (med. grind though) in my regular coffee pot. P=

Stormthorn
2009-10-12, 07:38 PM
I once made strong black coffee and steeped teabags in it.

Getting up at 3, after oging to bed at 11, after five days in an unfamiliar city, and then not getting back to sleep for 23 hours.

I felt some Cof-Tea was required.

Blaine.Bush
2009-10-12, 07:59 PM
I rarely drink anything caffeinated. When I do, it keeps me up for hours on end. Not pleasant.

Anuan
2009-10-12, 08:44 PM
I once made strong black coffee and steeped teabags in it.

Getting up at 3, after oging to bed at 11, after five days in an unfamiliar city, and then not getting back to sleep for 23 hours.

I felt some Cof-Tea was required.

I MUST TRY THIS!

Moff Chumley
2009-10-12, 10:17 PM
Feh, I've tried it. You know what's better? Putting coffee grounds in a tea bag and letting THAT steep. :smallcool:

Miklus
2009-10-13, 02:24 PM
I'm not certain on how they prepared that coffee in that chart. If they made it in a typical coffee machine that uses a filter much of the essential oils in coffee which give it its flavor and also contain most of its caffeine are soaked up by the filter. French pressed coffee packs more punch flavor and caffeine. *hugs his bean grinder and his little single cup French press* :smallbiggrin:

I was once to a job interview in one of those fancy-pancy IT companies. They had one of those punch-piston coffee things. I had to drink a cup out of politeness. It did not taste that bad, but boy those java-heads crank it up high. I don't remember much after that, exept driving home really really fast...and the hangover!

Durp
2009-10-13, 02:31 PM
When I was ten I drank literally 32 cans of mountain dew, then my memory got fuzzy, all I know is that I woke up two days later in the woods with honey and bee stings on my face, and I was holding a baseball bat that smelled like gasoline.

zeratul
2009-10-13, 02:34 PM
My best story is probably that one night while hanging out with a friend of mine and his aunt I drank 4 mountain dews, a battery can (giant can basically) of jolt, and a monster then watched Repo the genetic opera. The fact that It was really late and I was really caffeine high made the movie even weirder and it's already pretty damn weird. Come to think of it, I've only seen that movie caffeine high.

Zeb The Troll
2009-10-14, 05:53 AM
Caffeine is illegal in some places, and even where it isn't there are a lot of good arguments why it should be just as illegal as say cocaine or amphetamine.I quite disagree. In moderate amounts, coffee is good for you (http://men.webmd.com/features/coffee-new-health-food). That being said, I'm typically a pot a day coffee drinker at work. Less so at home, but still occasionally.

charl
2009-10-14, 07:35 AM
I quite disagree. In moderate amounts, coffee is good for you (http://men.webmd.com/features/coffee-new-health-food). That being said, I'm typically a pot a day coffee drinker at work. Less so at home, but still occasionally.

In moderate amounts, yes, but that is true of any drug. Plus is isn't actually the caffeine that is health beneficial, just like it isn't the alcohol in red wine that stops heart disease. Caffeine is a habit forming central nervous stimulant that has been known to cause heart attacks, blood pressure issues, stomach problems, insomnia, depression and paranoia. It employs a multi-million Euro industry most of which is built on human suffering and exploitation (fair trade coffee aside) and is a huge cause of environmental problems in parts of the world.

It is comparable to many illegal substances in those regards.

AtomicKitKat
2009-10-14, 07:53 AM
I've gotten so used to caffeine over the years, I can now actually use it as a "knockout" drug. That's scary. That being said, the metabolism-boosting effect still works on me. I sometimes combine it with aspirin and pseudoephedrine via a mix of Red Bull/Alka Seltzer/Cold-suppressant pill, which is supposed to be even better for metabolism increase(in addition to killing pain, thereby letting you "push your limits" a little further), but that may be hazardous to some people(ie, don't try it if you're allergic to any components, or if you're below the age of majority where you live).

Lappy9000
2009-10-14, 09:15 AM
I drink a ton of diet soda, although it isn't for the caffeine. I've found that I can go off the stuff with no side-effects other than finding other drinks to be boring.

One of the many fun symptoms of celiac is that it can make you thirsty all the time, and I don't like coffee or tea, but I still normally end up getting much more than the recommended 8-10 glasses of water per day. The rest is all diet soda :smallsigh:

HereticNox
2009-10-14, 10:01 AM
I haven't had a good cup of coffee in a while. :smallfrown: Of course when I do indulge in a cup, black with two ice cubes. If I drink it, I want to actually taste the coffee.

I've had caffeine everyday for 5 years or so. Generally I start my day with a Monster, then maybe another serving of caffeine around 12 or so. Of course I'm totally hooked on caffeine, I get migranes if I don't have any.

My worst experience was about 4 cans of an energy drink called Cocaine, in the span of less than an hour. I thought my heart was going to explode.

Yarram
2009-10-14, 10:22 AM
I have this great idea involving caffeine. You know how there are cans of stuff like "Mother" and "Red bull" that say "Only drink two of these a day"?

Well, first you drink two cans of Red Bull, then two cans of Mother, then two cans of V, then two expresso's, then two cans of coke!
Perfectly ok isn't it?

Fostire
2009-10-14, 11:33 AM
I have this great idea involving caffeine. You know how there are cans of stuff like "Mother" and "Red bull" that say "Only drink two of these a day"?

Well, first you drink two cans of Red Bull, then two cans of Mother, then two cans of V, then two expresso's, then two cans of coke!
Perfectly ok isn't it?
I see no problem with that plan. Go for it! :smallbiggrin:

Eldpollard
2009-10-14, 03:53 PM
This is something I've said before, but I'm not afraid to reiterate. I'm something of a caffeine fiend. Apparently most people don't measure coffee volume by the litre. Who knew? And urine that smells of coffee beans is also a poor sign. I think I need help.

Jack Squat
2009-10-14, 04:00 PM
I feel this comic may be appropriate for this thread.

http://www.staccatocomic.com/comics/2006-06-12.gif

Sequinox
2009-10-14, 04:11 PM
I don't drink coffee, I find it's taste disgusting. Instead I drink Red Bull for my caffeine needs. Also I must be the only person in the world who think Red Bull tastes good :smallbiggrin:

THERE'S SOMEONE ELSE!!!!! :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

I'm not alone... After all these two years or so... All ten or eleven times I've had red bull... Yum.

Monster is even better, though. Amp is gross (other than this red kind I had at a friend's party once... Good), I've never tried Rockstar or Sobe or whatever, and... I guess that's all I have to say.

AtomicKitKat
2009-10-14, 04:27 PM
Red Bull only tastes good out of the bottle. The canned stuff is horrible.

Fostire
2009-10-14, 05:06 PM
THERE'S SOMEONE ELSE!!!!! :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

I'm not alone... After all these two years or so... All ten or eleven times I've had red bull... Yum.

Monster is even better, though. Amp is gross (other than this red kind I had at a friend's party once... Good), I've never tried Rockstar or Sobe or whatever, and... I guess that's all I have to say.

woot! we should form a club :smallbiggrin:

RandomNPC
2009-10-14, 05:38 PM
I've gotten used to it, and occasonally get the minor withdrawl headaches if friends come over and drink my weekly rations (gotta pay da bills first ya know) but it gets really weird when i have some earlier than i normally do. I once told a guy with one leg that he had toes, at 6AM for instance.

Trog
2009-10-14, 05:53 PM
THERE'S SOMEONE ELSE!!!!! :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

I'm not alone... After all these two years or so... All ten or eleven times I've had red bull... Yum.

Monster is even better, though. Amp is gross (other than this red kind I had at a friend's party once... Good), I've never tried Rockstar or Sobe or whatever, and... I guess that's all I have to say.

I prefer Rockstar and that Sobe punch stuff to Monster. Monster wins against RedBull (also, sugar free Red Bull tastes better than regular imo). I cannot drink Amp as it makes me want to vomit. Not from the taste though, I mean something in it reacts very badly with my stomach or what have you. I forget the name but there is one ingredient in Amp that isn't in the others and perhaps that's what is bothering me somehow. I dunno, that reaction has happened to me a couple of times so I just avoid it now.

Also: Red Bull + Vodka = yum. P= Apparently it is illegal to mix energy drinks and alcohol though in Canada. Not sure why.

charl
2009-10-14, 06:04 PM
Also: Red Bull + Vodka = yum. P= Apparently it is illegal to mix energy drinks and alcohol though in Canada. Not sure why.

There was some concerns about the combination being dangerous after some people died from alcohol poisoning. After a few studies were done it turned out that it was mostly because while people would just go to sleep after a night of heavy drinking if they had been taking large amounts of sugar and caffeine that kept them awake and alert longer, which kept them drinking longer, which made them drink themselves to death.

Just don't keep drinking redbull vodkas (I prefer redbul jägermeister personally, but the principle is the same) all night and you should be fine. Start your evening with them but then switch to something else.

Darius Midnite
2009-10-14, 06:25 PM
I had myself a caffeine overdose not long time ago *shudders*. I just sat in a corner all pallid and sweating. I have stayed clear of caffeine ever since.

Trog
2009-10-14, 06:39 PM
Explanation
Ah, I see.

Start your evening with them but then switch to something else.That is, in fact, my usual plan, yes. I just have one at first to pep me up for a night out (on the rare occasions I actually do go out that is).

Zain
2009-10-14, 08:10 PM
when i was 12 i got i caffeine high form eating too many super chocolate cookies, i had 12, plus the leftover batter, i was awake for 4 days? also i have not needed to drink any of that stuff... could i be a mutant of some sort?:smallbiggrin:

*runs off to join the X-men*

Wolfbane
2009-10-14, 08:16 PM
I had myself a caffeine overdose not long time ago *shudders*. I just sat in a corner all pallid and sweating. I have stayed clear of caffeine ever since.

Huh. I've drank three pots of coffee(I make mine strong) in one day, and didn't have any adverse effects.

Zeb The Troll
2009-10-15, 12:13 AM
In moderate amounts, yes, but that is true of any drug. Plus is isn't actually the caffeine that is health beneficial, just like it isn't the alcohol in red wine that stops heart disease. Caffeine is a habit forming central nervous stimulant that has been known to cause heart attacks, blood pressure issues, stomach problems, insomnia, depression and paranoia. It employs a multi-million Euro industry most of which is built on human suffering and exploitation (fair trade coffee aside) and is a huge cause of environmental problems in parts of the world.

It is comparable to many illegal substances in those regards.:smallmad: It seems that you didn't actually read the article (http://men.webmd.com/features/coffee-new-health-food). Yes, antioxidants and "other mysterious properties" make coffee on the whole better than other sources of caffeine. However, one of the reasons coffee is good for you is because of the high dosage of caffeine.


In other words, consume enough caffeine -- whether it's from coffee or another source -- and you will likely run faster, last longer and be stronger. What's enough? As little as one cup can offer some benefit, but the real impact comes from at least two mugs, says Graham. By comparison, it'd take at least eight glasses of cola to get the same effect, which isn't exactly conducive for running a marathon.

And it's the caffeine that has been shown to be the major contributor to many of the benefits.


"The evidence is very strong that regular coffee consumption reduces risk of Parkinson's disease and for that, it's directly related to caffeine," DePaulis tells WebMD. "In fact, Parkinson's drugs are now being developed that contain a derivative of caffeine based on this evidence."
...
It's also caffeine -- and not coffee, per se -- that makes java a powerful aid in enhancing athletic endurance and performance, says physiologist and longtime coffee researcher Terry Graham, PhD, of the University of Guelph in Canada. So powerful, in fact, that until recently, caffeine in coffee or other forms was deemed a "controlled" substance by the Olympic Games Committee, meaning that it could be consumed only in small, designated amounts by competing athletes.

How much is "a moderate amount"? Far more than you probably think...


After analyzing data on 126,000 people for as long as 18 years, Harvard researchers calculate that compared with not partaking in America's favorite morning drink, downing one to three cups of caffeinated coffee daily can reduce diabetes risk by single digits. But having six cups or more each day slashed men's risk by 54% and women's by 30% over java avoiders.

How much is too much is dependant upon the individual, but the overarching consensus is "more is better, so long as it doesn't make you jittery".


...it's clear that coffee isn't for everyone. Its legendary jolt in excess doses -- that is, more than whatever your individual body can tolerate -- can increase nervousness, hand trembling, and cause rapid heartbeat. Coffee may also raise cholesterol levels in some people and may contribute to artery clogging. But most recent large studies show no significant adverse effects on most healthy people, although pregnant women, heart patients, and those at risk for osteoporosis may still be advised to limit or avoid coffee.

*And by the way, the article is on WebMD (http://www.webmd.com/), not "Coffe Growers for a Better World" or anything like that.

Vella_Malachite
2009-10-15, 12:58 AM
Aaaah, caffeine.

I looooove tea. Especially chai, and Lipton Black. Some herbal varieties are also nice, but for caffeine, gotta be black. Generally, I drink a couple cups a month. I'm no addict.

Coffee is nice, but I tend not to drink it so much, because neither of my parents drink it, so we don't tend to have it in the house and I can live without it. I prefer lattes, but am willing to drink other varieties, as long as there's plenty of milk in them.

First time I drank coffee was actually on a Karate camp earlier this year. There's a sempai in our club who makes awesome coffee, and everyone who was free got together in his cabin for coffee. Keep in mind, first coffee ever - and it was the black-as-sin, only-drink-50mL stuff. People started making suggestions of milk and other additives when I sat staring at the glass for more than thirty seconds. My comment at the time? "The tea drinker is apprehensive."

Can't stand energy drinks, though. If I have caffeine, I like it without sugar, Coke notwithstanding (although I never drink that for the caffeine and no more than a twice every six months or so).

charl
2009-10-15, 03:35 AM
*stuff*

The only thing the article said about caffeine was that it helped against one disease, and even then the results weren't conclusive (the article started saying so). Apart from that all they said is that caffeine is a performance booster, which is hardly news considering it is a central nervous stimulant. And that it was banned from athletics, which puts it in a very questionable category of substances.

toasty
2009-10-15, 04:06 AM
chai

This word... is so misused by the Western world. Though perhaps you have had "true" chai.

Do you know what "true" chai is? its 1/2 sweetened condense milk 1/2 hot water with LOTS of tea leaves. That, is chai. Very sweet, very milky, very strong.

Actually, its not that bad, I don't drink it that often though.

Zeb The Troll
2009-10-15, 04:19 AM
The only thing the article said about caffeine was that it helped against one disease, and even then the results weren't conclusive (the article started saying so).

One disease? In the first paragraph it lists Parkinsons, diabetes, and asthma.

"The evidence is very strong that regular coffee consumption reduces risk of Parkinson's disease and for that, it's directly related to caffeine,"

Caffeine is also what helps in treating asthma and headaches.

downing one to three cups of caffeinated coffee daily can reduce diabetes risk by single digits. But having six cups or more each day slashed men's risk by 54% and women's by 30% over java avoiders.
The list gets longer when you include the non-caffeine benefits of non-decaffeinated coffee, you know, the substance I said was good for you in the first place. These specific examples are simply to dispute your claim that the benefits of coffee specifically exclude caffeine as a source of said benefits.


Apart from that all they said is that caffeine is a performance booster, which is hardly news considering it is a central nervous stimulant. And that it was banned from athletics, which puts it in a very questionable category of substances.Not banned, regulated. And is no longer regulated. It was regulated for its effectiveness as a performance enhancer. I fail to see anything in there that suggests, as you did, that caffeine should be lumped in with narcotics like cocaine or amphetamines.

"For most people, very little bad comes from drinking it, but a lot of good."

charl
2009-10-15, 04:58 AM
Not banned, regulated. And is no longer regulated. It was regulated for its effectiveness as a performance enhancer. I fail to see anything in there that suggests, as you did, that caffeine should be lumped in with narcotics like cocaine or amphetamines.

I don't think I'm allowed to get into it (board rules), but those same things could be said about a lot of illegal drugs. That it does a lot of good but not a lot of bad to most people who take it. I am of the opinion that drug regulations are BS anyway, but if you are for them then really you should also be for regulation of caffeine as an illegal drug ("narcotic" is a term that really can't be used to describe a central nervous stimulant, no matter what the law says). Anything else would be hypocrisy.

And yeah caffeine was regulated because it was so effective. You know, like all stimulants are when it comes to sports? You don't really think the judges and athletics' boards are concerned about the health of their performers do you? No it's all about making sure no one gets to use any effective substance to become better than anyone else. The fact that it got deregulated actually suggests that it isn't really very effective.

My original point was really that there are just as many reasons to ban caffeine as there is to ban a lot of other currently illegal substances, and that caffeine is not the miracle it's made out to be. It causes heart disease, mental health issues, stomach problems and blood pressure irregularities and it can potentially be very, very dangerous. It is not something you should be playing around with without knowing the risks (as with all drugs).

Zeb The Troll
2009-10-15, 05:42 AM
I don't think I'm allowed to get into it (board rules), but those same things could be said about a lot of illegal drugs. That it does a lot of good but not a lot of bad to most people who take it.Name one illegal drug that would do more good than harm if it were unregulated. Actually, don't. I don't want to open that can of worms. Suffice to say that I can't think of even one that I would recommend to a ten year old.


I am of the opinion that drug regulations are BS anyway, but if you are for them then really you should also be for regulation of caffeine as an illegal drug ("narcotic" is a term that really can't be used to describe a central nervous stimulant, no matter what the law says). Anything else would be hypocrisy.

And yeah caffeine was regulated because it was so effective. You know, like all stimulants are when it comes to sports? You don't really think the judges and athletics' boards are concerned about the health of their performers do you? No it's all about making sure no one gets to use any effective substance to become better than anyone else.

My original point was really that there are just as many reasons to ban caffeine as there is to ban a lot of other currently illegal substances, and that caffeine is not the miracle it's made out to be. It causes heart disease, mental health issues*, stomach problems and blood pressure irregularities and it can potentially be very, very dangerous. It is not something you should be playing around with without knowing the risks (as with all drugs).And yet, here's a medical outlet telling me that the benefits far outweigh the risks for most people and that, since I'm not in a risk population, I should be drinking two cups or more per day (and as many as six cups have still been shown to have added benefits). This is not the case with cocaine or amphetamines or marijuana or nicotine or alcohol or any other controlled substance. Where is the hypocrisy? The doctors say that for most people, the more the better. I see not one word in there that indicates to me that this substance is "very, very dangerous" except to certain populations of people, much like almost any other food stuff. I've shown you compiled research indicating the benefits, you've shown me nothing indicating this purported harm. It seems to me that coffee and caffeine are more in common with fiber than cocaine and you've said nothing that would convince me otherwise.

(Hey, here's a New York Times article (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/05/health/05brod.html) that says that coffee and caffeine aren't actually diuretics unless you have more than 550mg of caffeine, 6 and a half cups of coffee. It also causes no increase in heart disease, and there is “little evidence that coffee and/or caffeine in typical dosages increases the risk” of heart attack, sudden death or abnormal heart rhythms.

And here's a link to an article posted on the Mayo Clinic website (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/coffee-and-health/AN01354) which, while not as enthusiastic, supports the claims of the other two.)

(*On mental health in particular)
But it helps kids' minds in another way. "There recently was a study from Brazil finding that children who drink coffee with milk each day are less likely to have depression than other children," he tells WebMD. "In fact, no studies show that coffee in reasonable amounts is in any way harmful to children."

charl
2009-10-15, 05:51 AM
*more stuff*

Not touching the specific illegal drug discussion, since that would be against the rules.

I would never recommend caffeine to a ten year old, mind you. I can't see why you ever should. Caffeine is addictive. Addictive substances should be kept away from children. Period.

A for not getting more depression if you drink coffee every day: yes, of course. You are taking a CNS every day. It acts like an anti-depressant. If you keep taking them of course you are going to feel better all the time. The bad things come when you stop. Surely you can't be saying that you recommend being on a drug all the time?

This discussion is fast becoming a major hypocrisy thing for me, since I am an addict. But still, I feel that caffeine is just another drug. It's the same principle taking it as it is taking any other. You can't defend it with any other arguments than "I like it" or "I need it or else I will die."

Zeb The Troll
2009-10-15, 06:05 AM
I would never recommend caffeine to a ten year old, mind you. I can't see why you ever should. Caffeine is addictive. Addictive substances should be kept away from children. Period.My nephew is prescribed coffee by his pediatrician to help treat his symptoms of autism. Furthermore, it can be addictive, but it is by no means a certainty. I often go without because I just don't feel like having any and I declared early that on normal days I drink what some might consider an excessive amount. Giving a ten year old a cup in the morning has been proven to be more healthful than harmful. Yes, I would give my child coffee. And have. And will again, unless my son decides he just doesn't like it.


A for not getting more depression if you drink coffee every day: yes, of course. You are taking a CNS every day. It acts like an anti-depressant. If you keep taking them of course you are going to feel better all the time. The bad things come when you stop. Surely you can't be saying that you recommend being on a drug all the time?If that's how you want to look at it, yes. I would rather my child have a cup of coffee (which I might add is proven to be healthy) every single day for the rest of his life than ever be one of those poor souls on a different thread who regularly contemplate suicide. Absolutely. No questions. Yes. (Hey, bonus! He'll also have reduced risk for Parkinson's, diabetes, and colon cancer!)


This discussion is fast becoming a major hypocrisy thing for me, since I am an addict. But still, I feel that caffeine is just another drug. It's the same principle taking it as it is taking any other. You can't defend it with any other arguments than "I like it" or "I need it or else I will die."I have provided several reasons to support the consumption that have no bearing whatsoever on my thoughts about how it tastes or my ability/inability to get along without it. This claim is patently false.

charl
2009-10-15, 06:08 AM
If that's how you want to look at it, yes. I would rather my child have a cup of coffee (which I might add is proven to be healthy) every single day for the rest of his life than ever be one of those poor souls on a different thread who regularly contemplate suicide. Absolutely. No questions. Yes.

Agreed on that point. I still think you are wrong with the rest though (except the autism part. In that case it is justifiable since he clearly needs a CNS to function), but this is quickly derailing the thread and I think we should just agree to disagree, shake hands and move on.

Amiel
2009-10-15, 07:29 AM
Caffeine does rather strange and interesting things to me. I find that I fluctuate between hyper-vigilance and insomnia and can't fall asleep at all or sleepiness and drowsiness. Yes, ingested caffeine actually causes me to start feeling drowsy and wish to sleep. Weird.

As for energy drinks, I'm actually more of a fan of Red Bull than any other kind, Red Eye and V included; though I'm more partial to V than Red Eye. I can still remember a cramming session at uni with friends. We consumed so many energy drinks, soft drinks and sugary items that all we did was talking with extreme rapidity, drawing pictures and watching Youtube. Very productive that study session was. Still managed to get Bs in Pathology and Neurology :).

charl
2009-10-15, 07:51 AM
My favourite Rebull-style drink is called Frank's. I think it might be available only in Sweden and unlike most energy drinks it comes in a half-litre beer can. It's pretty good tasting and doesn't list high fructose corn syrup (EVIL!) as an ingredient. 135 mgs of caffeine per litre, which isn't a lot, but enough for my purposes, especially with all the sugar boosting the effects.

Dewey
2009-10-15, 07:54 AM
I can't abide the taste of coffee, and I don't like anything carbonated, so no soda. I drink tea, but not much, only a cup or two a day at most. I don't really need it. I am a little groggy in the morning, but I don't usually need caffeine to wake up. I do like the coffee energy drinks (Loca Mocha, etc).

Kneenibble
2009-10-15, 12:25 PM
This word... is so misused by the Western world. Though perhaps you have had "true" chai.

Do you know what "true" chai is? its 1/2 sweetened condense milk 1/2 hot water with LOTS of tea leaves. That, is chai. Very sweet, very milky, very strong.

Actually, its not that bad, I don't drink it that often though.
And yet, that's not all it is, either, since several different countries around your part of the world use that word. The chai I had from street stalls in India, for example, didn't use sweetened condensed milk, just scalded unskimmed milk and a mad supersaturation of sugar. Not quite the same. And even then, I was in Chennai by the way, they called it "milk chai" or something.

It was a poor cousin of street masala chai. When occidentals say chai, they mean a crappy commercial packaged ripoff of that. I don't think you can say we misuse the word, because as I've demonstrated, it means different things in your part of the world too -- I mean wouldn't they call green tea "chai" in north India? The word has been assimilated to suit the needs of our culture. We are misusing it only insofar as we are misusing the word tea to describe dust in a paper pouch that turns hot water brown. That sound there was my nose rubbing on the ceiling.

I, of course, *pantomime huff of pride* make a masala chai with whole spices and proper high-grade tea leaves and saffron.

Belkarsbadside1
2009-10-15, 12:46 PM
CAFFEINE IS A DRUG!!!
DON'T GET ADDICTED! IT IS EVIL!!!!!
Thats why I don't drink caffeine.

Emlyn
2009-10-15, 03:56 PM
CAFFEINE IS A DRUG!!!
DON'T GET ADDICTED! IT IS EVIL!!!!!
Thats why I don't drink caffeine.
Not had too many 4 hr nights ehh? I don't drink caffeine regularly, but when I'm getting little sleep and being in school/work for 10 hrs a day, I need something to keep me from falling asleep during a lecture, no matter how interesting it is.

Belkarsbadside1
2009-10-15, 04:00 PM
Actually I normally get only 4-6 hour sleep and function just fine without anything to help me.

V: Sorry, you can only get it at first level. :smallbiggrin:

Emlyn
2009-10-15, 04:28 PM
But, that's not, I want that feat!

Alteran
2009-10-15, 04:47 PM
CAFFEINE IS A DRUG!!!
DON'T GET ADDICTED! IT IS EVIL!!!!!
Thats why I don't drink caffeine.

PENICILLIN IS A DRUG!!! EVIL!!!!!

People need to be careful not to make such dramatic associations with broad terms like "drug". Some drugs are bad, but that doesn't mean that every drug is automatically bad (never mind "EVIL"). Evaluate each drug on an individual basis before determining its alignment. :smallwink:


But, that's not, I want that feat!

It's actually a combination of two feats, and it's not as good as you'd think. I should know, I've had them for a long time. The two feats in question are "Partial Sleep Deprivation Tolerance" and "Be At Least Somewhat Sleep Deprived For So Long That You Forget What You're Like When Fully Awake".

Although to be fair, there are some people who really can function perfectly normally with less sleep than most people require. It's just much less common than the combination that I mentioned above.

Belkarsbadside1
2009-10-15, 04:50 PM
Sheesh can't you tell when people are joking? I have no qualms about people drinking coffee. I just don't drink it because I don't like relying on anything to help me function. Other people can do as they want.




It's actually a combination of two feats, and it's not as good as you'd think. I should know, I've had them for a long time. The two feats in question are "Partial Sleep Deprivation Tolerance" and "Be At Least Somewhat Sleep Deprived For So Long That You Forget What You're Like When Fully Awake".

Although to be fair, there are some people who really can function perfectly normally with less sleep than most people. It's just much less common than the combination that I mentioned above.

Actually, I thought of that already and tried an experiment where I got 4 more hours of sleep a night for two weeks, and didn't notice that much of a difference except for a slight increase of tolerance for idiots

Emlyn
2009-10-15, 04:51 PM
Well I have the second feat in spades, but no luck on the first. I guess that means I need to level up...somehow

Alteran
2009-10-15, 04:53 PM
Sheesh can't you tell when people are joking? I have no qualms about people drinking coffee. I just don't drink it because I don't like relying on anything to help me function. Other people can do as they want.

Apparently not. :smallredface::smalltongue:

I considered putting in a disclaimer to that effect, but you sounded serious enough that I didn't bother. I've met people who practically recoiled at the word "drug", so it wasn't hard to imagine that I had met another. Unfortunately.


Well I have the second feat in spades, but no luck on the first. I guess that means I need to level up...somehow

I suggest that you go to the countryside and beat up some bears.

charl
2009-10-15, 04:56 PM
PENICILLIN IS A DRUG!!! EVIL!!!!!

People need to be careful not to make such dramatic associations with broad terms like "drug". Some drugs are bad, but that doesn't mean that every drug is automatically bad (never mind "EVIL"). Evaluate each drug on an individual basis before determining its alignment. :smallwink:


The be fair penicillin is not a psychoactive drug. It's a quirk of the English language that drug can either mean all medicines or just psychotropics, and in this case he clearly was talking about the latter.

Alteran
2009-10-15, 05:07 PM
The be fair penicillin is not a psychoactive drug. It's a quirk of the English language that drug can either mean all medicines or just psychotropics, and in this case he clearly was talking about the latter.

Aspirin, anesthetics, and antidepressants are all psychoactive drugs. Even if he was talking solely about that category of drug, he'd be labeling a lot of legitimate medicines EVIL. Well, he would be, if he was serious.

I'm just trying to make the point that making sweeping judgments based on vague terminology is a bad idea. One should never associate such a term with strong positive or negative feelings, since it can bias you towards or against something else that falls under the same label but is really very different.

charl
2009-10-15, 05:36 PM
Aspirin, anesthetics, and antidepressants are all psychoactive drugs. Even if he was talking solely about that category of drug, he'd be labeling a lot of legitimate medicines EVIL. Well, he would be, if he was serious.

I'm just trying to make the point that making sweeping judgments based on vague terminology is a bad idea. One should never associate such a term with strong positive or negative feelings, since it can bias you towards or against something else that falls under the same label but is really very different.

Aspirin (paracetamol) is not psychoactive. :smallwink:

Anyway, I get your point. It's just that using "psychoactive substance" instead of "drug" is pretty damn unwieldy. Just try to interpret it from context.

Also, if we had been having the discussion in Swedish this wouldn't have been a problem. There's a separate word for "psychoactive substance" and another for "medicinal drugs", but on the other hand there is no word to encompass both of those, as the English word drugs does.

Yora
2009-10-15, 05:45 PM
Everything that makes you get an addiction is evil. Sometimes a tollerable and neccessary evil, but still.

And if you feel all bad half the day when you don't get a cup of coffee in the morning, that's an addiction.

And if you have to "get used to the taste" of something that tastes terrible, but you drink it anyway because of something inside it, that's also quite questionable to me.

Alteran
2009-10-15, 06:15 PM
Aspirin (paracetamol) is not psychoactive. :smallwink:


Further research shows that you're right. It seems that my original source lied to me. :smallsigh:

Edit: Actually, you're not entirely right. Aspirin may not be psychoactive, but it's also not paracetamol. :smalltongue: That's Tylenol. Now I'm also not sure if aspirin is psychoactive or not. Since aspirin and paracetamol are both NSAID's, I'm thinking it probably isn't.

charl
2009-10-15, 06:47 PM
Further research shows that you're right. It seems that my original source lied to me. :smallsigh:

Edit: Actually, you're not entirely right. Aspirin may not be psychoactive, but it's also not paracetamol. :smalltongue: That's Tylenol. Now I'm also not sure if aspirin is psychoactive or not. Since aspirin and paracetamol are both NSAID's, I'm thinking it probably isn't.

Well, I can't be expected to know what specific substances American brand name medicine has in it. We don't have those brands here.

Alteran
2009-10-15, 07:01 PM
Well, I can't be expected to know what specific substances American brand name medicine has in it. We don't have those brands here.

Wikipedia, my friend. That's what I did.

Trog
2009-10-15, 07:10 PM
Caffeine does rather strange and interesting things to me. I find that I fluctuate between hyper-vigilance and insomnia and can't fall asleep at all or sleepiness and drowsiness. Yes, ingested caffeine actually causes me to start feeling drowsy and wish to sleep. Weird.
This happens to me too sometimes. The drowsiness I mean. No idea what causes it. Very strange.

Dexam
2009-10-15, 09:10 PM
Ah, coffee - where would I be without thee? *sips cappuccino*

I usually have two cups a day, sometimes three if I'm really busy. My workplace has some coffee machines that do a half-decent cappuccino. It's not as nice as those made at a cafe, but at $4-$5 (or more!) for a regular serve from a coffe shop or cafe it can turn into an expensive habit.

I've never developed a taste for tea, other than iced tea, or Chinese green tea when having yum cha. :smallsmile:

As for the caffeinated soft-drinks and so-called "energy drinks"... not even if you paid me to drink the stuff. :smallyuk:

Beans
2009-10-17, 12:05 PM
When I was ten I drank literally 32 cans of mountain dew, then my memory got fuzzy, all I know is that I woke up two days later in the woods with honey and bee stings on my face, and I was holding a baseball bat that smelled like gasoline.
Heh.

I have seen similar situations. Actually, guys, check out these three blog posts of mine. In order, mind you.
First (http://communistbeans.wordpress.com/2009/10/01/72-cans-of-mountain-dew/).
Second (http://communistbeans.wordpress.com/2009/10/02/mountain-dew-part-ii/).
Third (http://communistbeans.wordpress.com/2009/10/05/the-3th-mountain-dew-post/).

Kneenibble
2009-10-18, 01:19 PM
So
The part in the article Trog was discussing, about the benefits of caffeine particularly in the higher doses that come with coffee, piqued my interest: specifically the section on its improving athletic performance.

Last night, in the name of science, I took a few cups of French press coffee before my evening run. My experience supports the article's purport: I flew through 15 km with more sustained bursts of sprinting than I've probably ever done in a run that long. The effects were quite strong. I had a few cramps starting out, which I don't usually have, but they went away -- not sure if the coffee had to do with that.

In short the results were awesome. I want to hear from others who will have tried it themselves.

Jinura
2009-10-18, 01:24 PM
I get a lot of caffeine into my body from all the cola I drink. My high score is somewhere around 4 litres of cola on a single day xD I sometimes drink coffee and tea, but really the day is much easier if I get some cola :smallredface:

Lord of Syntax
2009-10-18, 05:46 PM
I <3 Dr. Pepper

MtnDew is moose urine. Period.

Jack Squat
2009-10-18, 06:14 PM
I <3 Dr. Pepper

MtnDew is moose urine. Period.

Them's fightin' words.

I challenge you to pistols at dawn! :smalltongue:

Really though, I never got the appeal Dr. Pepper. It was designed to make medicine taste better before they had flavoring to mask them. It was replaced by grape flavored cough syrup. That really doesn't speak good for Dr. Pepper as a whole.

Also, I personally think it tastes like carbonated prune juice and lime kool-aid. I'll stick to my moose urine, thank you very much. :smallwink:

Fostire
2009-10-18, 08:16 PM
I <3 Dr. Pepper

MtnDew is moose urine. Period.
Really? I didn't know moose urine tasted that good :smalltongue:

Dr. Pepper is better though.

Siosilvar
2009-10-18, 08:30 PM
I have a question.

Am I the only person that caffeine seems to have no effect on?

...admittedly, I haven't had an energy drink or coffee ever.

Jack Squat
2009-10-18, 08:35 PM
I have a question.

Am I the only person that caffeine seems to have no effect on?

...admittedly, I haven't had an energy drink or coffee ever.

Nah, it doesn't really have an effect on me unless I have excessive. As I posted earlier, excessive means ~400mg, with medical problems starting at around 250mg, IIRC.

Trog
2009-10-18, 10:02 PM
I have a question.

Am I the only person that caffeine seems to have no effect on?

...admittedly, I haven't had an energy drink or coffee ever.
Are you sure about that? Only reason I ask is that at this place where I worked we had gotten in can of Red Bull in the vending machines and there was this one little old lady receptionist who thought she might like to try one.

A week later or so we were talking about them again and the receptionist says "well I tried one last week and it didn't effect me at all." To which I snorted and pointed out how I and others noticed she was running around everywhere that afternoon - very unlike her usual self. It was actually pretty amusing. "Really? I was?" she said. She had no clue that it did anything to change her energy levels.

So just because you didn't notice anything doesn't always mean it didn't effect you. :smallwink:

Jack Squat
2009-10-18, 10:13 PM
So just because you didn't notice anything doesn't always mean it didn't effect you. :smallwink:

Yeah, one of my friends mentioned how he's gotten really tolerant to caffeine, and I could always bring up at least 5 entertaining stories about him after having some energy drink or another. One that he swears never happened ends up with him being tackled, hog-tied, and shoved under a large cardboard box.

No one's told me I act any different after caffeine, of course, I also don't normally have large amounts either (well, anymore)...even when pulling all-nighters I prefer Gatorade and protein bars.

Fostire
2009-10-18, 10:20 PM
Yeah, one of my friends mentioned how he's gotten really tolerant to caffeine, and I could always bring up at least 5 entertaining stories about him after having some energy drink or another. One that he swears never happened ends up with him being tackled, hog-tied, and shoved under a large cardboard box.

Like most poisons*, gaining tolerance to caffeine is possible and very likely if you regularly drink large amounts of it, so unless your stories are recent it's not fair on the poor fella.

*fun fact: caffeine's natural purpose is to be an insecticide.

Jack Squat
2009-10-18, 10:27 PM
Well, I haven't talked to him recently, but when he was saying that was only a few months past the snippet I described above.

To be fair, he did become more tolerant, but it was far from the not having an effect anymore that he was saying.

Zeb The Troll
2009-10-19, 02:25 AM
So
The part in the article Trog was discussing, about the benefits of caffeine particularly in the higher doses that come with coffee, piqued my interest: specifically the section on its improving athletic performance.
<snip>
Trog posted that too? :smallcool:


As I posted earlier, excessive means ~400mg, with medical problems starting at around 250mg, IIRC.:smallsigh:

Kneenibble
2009-10-19, 02:52 AM
Trog posted that too? :smallcool:

Uhhhh,
Oops!

I was still in the throes of my runner's high and coming down from a load of coffee... I confused the two of yous because you're both manly man types who are older than myself. So, it's a compliment, see! Please don't beat me up, I only like that game when there's a safety word.

:eek::redface:

Strawman
2009-10-19, 04:29 AM
A lot of writers in my college are drinking more and more caffeine because smoking is too expensive. I'm waiting to see how their writing style changes.

I drink soda if I need to stay up all night, but only if I don't have access to a computer screen. For some reason the glowy magic box keeps me alert for as long as I've ever needed to be.

LurkerInPlayground
2009-10-19, 04:36 AM
I <3 Dr. Pepper

MtnDew is moose urine. Period.
Any beverage that needs to resort to corn syrup is definitionally Satan's Piss. It's unholy water used in the desecration of kitten corpses, in an inversion of cleansing rituals and baptisms.

Good soda uses cane sugar.

You savages.

Zeb The Troll
2009-10-19, 04:53 AM
Any beverage that needs to resort to corn syrup is definitionally Satan's Piss. It's unholy water used in the desecration of kitten corpses, in an inversion of cleansing rituals and baptisms.

Good soda uses cane sugar.

You savages.I suppose. If you define "good" as "outrageously, prohibitively expensive". I've yet to find a flavor of Jones (the only pure cane sugar soda brand I'm aware of) that I find comparable in taste to the far less costly and easier to obtain alternatives on the grocery store shelves. :smallyuk:

charl
2009-10-19, 05:12 AM
I suppose. If you define "good" as "outrageously, prohibitively expensive". I've yet to find a flavor of Jones (the only pure cane sugar soda brand I'm aware of) that I find comparable in taste to the far less costly and easier to obtain alternatives on the grocery store shelves. :smallyuk:

The problem is that corn syrup is very bad for your health. Worse than cane sugar, even.

And I retort that beat sugar is what makes the best cola.

Jack Squat
2009-10-19, 05:59 AM
:smallsigh:

That not true? I just remember hearing that somewhere. Probably off of some thread somewhere about that "death by caffeine" site.


EDIT:


Any beverage that needs to resort to corn syrup is definitionally Satan's Piss. It's unholy water used in the desecration of kitten corpses, in an inversion of cleansing rituals and baptisms.

Good soda uses cane sugar.

You savages.

*coughs* (http://www.pepsithrowbackhub.com/)

snoopy13a
2009-10-19, 06:08 AM
Any beverage that needs to resort to corn syrup is definitionally Satan's Piss. It's unholy water used in the desecration of kitten corpses, in an inversion of cleansing rituals and baptisms.

Good soda uses cane sugar.

You savages.

Can you really taste the difference between corn syrup based soda and cane sugar soda?

I know when Pepsi came out with their limited edition sugar Pepsi that I couldn't . Honestly, they taste the same to me (which is probably why all of the major soda companies switched once the cheaper corn syrup was produced.

Zeb The Troll
2009-10-19, 06:16 AM
The problem is that corn syrup is very bad for your health. Worse than cane sugar, even.

And I retort that beet sugar is what makes the best cola.Well, soda in general is bad for your health (or at the very best has no nutritional value), not just HFCS, so if you're going to drink it anyway, why drink one that doesn't taste good?

Also, the details about HFCS being worse for you than other sweeteners are still under debate. In 2008 the American Medical Association declared “High-fructose corn syrup does not appear to contribute more to obesity than other caloric sweeteners.” Of course, it's being blamed for more than just obesity, but the other maladies tend to be obesity related. The point? Reduce ALL sugar intake. There's no (readily apparent) need to single out this one. The AMA also concedes at the same time that much (but not all) of the research being done into the health risks of HFCS is being funded by the industry trying to sell it to us, so take that for what it's worth.

Also also, it is very important to differentiate regular corn syrup, virtually 100% glucose that you buy in the grocery store, from HFCS, which is a commercial sweetener that is about 50% fructose/50% glucose, the same as table sugar is. Linky (http://www.eatingwell.com/nutrition_health/nutrition_news_information/whats_so_bad_about_high_fructose_corn_syrup?page=8 ) with explanations of different sugars.

EDIT:

That not true? I just remember hearing that somewhere. Probably off of some thread somewhere about that "death by caffeine" site.There was a whole discussion about this in this thread. 250mg of caffeine is less than what's in two doses of Excedrin. The FDA lets them tell us we can have 4 doses (130mg per dose) in a day. Would they do that if there were 'health risks' in only two?

Jack Squat
2009-10-19, 06:39 AM
EDIT:
There was a whole discussion about this in this thread. 250mg of caffeine is less than what's in two doses of Excedrin. The FDA lets them tell us we can have 4 doses (130mg per dose) in a day. Would they do that if there were 'health risks' in only two?

Bad logic, sorry. Caffeine, like any other substance, gets worked through the system over time. They direct 6 hours between each dose, which is easily adequate time for the 130 mg to be significantly, if not completely worked out of the system.

I'm not saying that I know the 250mg thing is correct, and I'll read through the pages I missed of this thread soon as I get the chance, but it is a faulty argument.

fake edit: After doing a quick Google, I found that 250mg causes a "moderate rise" in both systolic and diastolic blood pressure, and lowers the heart rate. Dunno if I'd classify that as "medical problems" for a healthy person, but it backs up the argument that if someone has a heart condition, they probably should switch to decaf.

Real edit: I'd like to change my stance on the "significantly, if not completely worked out of the system". Well, I'd like to solidify it at least. About the longest it'll take half the caffeine to work out of your system is 4 hours. Going off that and not the 6 hours instructed by the FDA, Excedrin use breaks down like this.

dose 1: 130mg
dose 2: (130/2 = 65) + 130 = 195
dose 3: (195/2 = 97.5) + 130 = 227.5
dose 4: (227.5/2 = 113.75) + 130 = 243.75

So even by cutting down on the mandated time by 2 hours, you don't reach 250mg of caffeine in your system. 'course this seems to be a moot point because what I posted above basically says that it's not something to worry about unless you have heart problems.

Trog
2009-10-19, 09:20 AM
Trog posted that too? :smallcool:
Okay, that explains that. I was confused there for a while. >.>


Can you really taste the difference between corn syrup based soda and cane sugar soda?
Yes you can. I have to agree that the one type of cane sugar soda I have compared against the regular (regular in America, anyway) corn syrup kind tasted much sweeter. Though I have to agree with Zeb on the prohibitively expensive part. I only pick a bottle now or then as a treat and on a day-to-day basis stick to the regular stuff.

Zeb The Troll
2009-10-20, 12:53 AM
Bad logic, sorry. Caffeine, like any other substance, gets worked through the system over time. They direct 6 hours between each dose, which is easily adequate time for the 130 mg to be significantly, if not completely worked out of the system.

I'm not saying that I know the 250mg thing is correct, and I'll read through the pages I missed of this thread soon as I get the chance, but it is a faulty argument.

fake edit: After doing a quick Google, I found that 250mg causes a "moderate rise" in both systolic and diastolic blood pressure, and lowers the heart rate. Dunno if I'd classify that as "medical problems" for a healthy person, but it backs up the argument that if someone has a heart condition, they probably should switch to decaf.

Real edit: I'd like to change my stance on the "significantly, if not completely worked out of the system". Well, I'd like to solidify it at least. About the longest it'll take half the caffeine to work out of your system is 4 hours. Going off that and not the 6 hours instructed by the FDA, Excedrin use breaks down like this.

dose 1: 130mg
dose 2: (130/2 = 65) + 130 = 195
dose 3: (195/2 = 97.5) + 130 = 227.5
dose 4: (227.5/2 = 113.75) + 130 = 243.75

So even by cutting down on the mandated time by 2 hours, you don't reach 250mg of caffeine in your system. 'course this seems to be a moot point because what I posted above basically says that it's not something to worry about unless you have heart problems.Ah, see, my error here, then, is that it was unclear to me that you were trying to say 250mg "at one time" could be a problem, as opposed to "per day" as I thought you meant.

For your math, is it "half the caffeine" or 65mg? What if we introduce Vivarin (200mg per 4 hour dose) instead of Excedrin?

Dose 1: 200mg
Dose 2: (100mg remaining) + 200mg = 300mg
Dose 3: (200mg remaining) + 200mg = 400mg
et cetera.

This is also approved by the FDA at this dosage. There is no recommended limit to the number of successive doses one can have except to say that "It is intended for occasional use and is not intended to be a replacement for sleep". These are poorly defined limits, but a military man on a 24 hour watch could easily and reasonably interpret this to mean "I can safely take one every four hours for the duration of my 24 watch until I can safely make it back to my bed."

Alarra
2009-10-21, 01:55 AM
I'm one of those weird people for whom caffeine really does not have an effect, even though I have it very rarely. I have to have really high amounts, like mountain dew on top of higher than recommended doses of vivarin before it seems to do anything, and even then I seem to jump past the 'alert' and into shaky and jittery.

Jack Squat
2009-10-21, 06:21 AM
Ah, see, my error here, then, is that it was unclear to me that you were trying to say 250mg "at one time" could be a problem, as opposed to "per day" as I thought you meant.

Easy mistake. I should really be more specific rather than assume people follow my thought pattern.


For your math, is it "half the caffeine" or 65mg? What if we introduce Vivarin (200mg per 4 hour dose) instead of Excedrin?

Dose 1: 200mg
Dose 2: (100mg remaining) + 200mg = 300mg
Dose 3: (200mg remaining) + 200mg = 400mg
et cetera.

My math was in fact "half". When I looked it up, I saw something saying that depending on the enzymes in your body, caffeine has a "half-life" of about 3-4 hours once in your system. So your math is a little off, but it still gets the point across as at dose 3 you still have 350mg.


This is also approved by the FDA at this dosage. There is no recommended limit to the number of successive doses one can have except to say that "It is intended for occasional use and is not intended to be a replacement for sleep". These are poorly defined limits, but a military man on a 24 hour watch could easily and reasonably interpret this to mean "I can safely take one every four hours for the duration of my 24 watch until I can safely make it back to my bed."

True. I've never taken caffeine pills, but from a Google it lists common side-effects as "Dizziness; irritability; nausea; nervousness" and Severe side-effects as "diarrhea; shakiness; trouble sleeping; vomiting" as well as severe allergic reactions - but those are a different case.

While these may not be considered health risks, even they (looking particularly at nausea/vomiting and diarrhea) show that it may be what's considered above "healthy" levels of caffeine. Not the heart problems that I said above don't really happen unless you have a preexisting condition, but the side-effects listed do tend to compare to that of mild poisoning. So I suppose as with anything, before taking a medicine/supplement, consult a doctor. And if you're drinking that much Mountain Dew/coffee, you may have bigger problems than possibly throwing up :smalltongue:

The good news is that it's apparently not habit-forming, so all of you who say you're addicted - it's all in your head.

Zeb The Troll
2009-10-21, 09:06 AM
My math was in fact "half". When I looked it up, I saw something saying that depending on the enzymes in your body, caffeine has a "half-life" of about 3-4 hours once in your system. So your math is a little off, but it still gets the point across as at dose 3 you still have 350mg.Gah! I even (obviously) assumed your "half" meaning correctly then failed to follow through past the second dose. *facepalm*


The good news is that it's apparently not habit-forming, so all of you who say you're addicted - it's all in your head.Woohooo!
*drinks coffee*

Kcalehc
2009-10-21, 09:33 AM
The good news is that it's apparently not habit-forming, so all of you who say you're addicted - it's all in your head.

Theres more to addiction than 'habbit forming.' The expectation of suppression of withdrawal symptoms is a part of addiction too.

The withdrawal symptoms like headaches and drowsiness that I get if I don't consume approximately a soda's worth of caffeine every 6 hours or so. (which is considerably less than I used to, it's taken a long time to get it down to that level). Fortunately I'm now, after 15 years of drinking it, quite caffeine tollerant; so much so that I can drink a cup of coffee and then sleep 10 minutes later.

As someone who is prone to migraines (as is my father, who is worse than I am), caffeine helps supress them too, or lessen their effects. Another part of my continuing addiction; caffeine withdrawal can (and im my case often does) trigger migraines. Feeling like every sound is a jet engine in your head, and every light is a laser beam into your eyes for 1-3 days at a time is not fun, I can assure you. So I continue where possible to imbibe a limited amount to avoid the horrors of migraine headaches.


Side note: Red bull can be used as a sleep aid. 'X' hours before you need to sleep, drink two cans. You'll be up for a while, then when you start to come down into the sugar/caffeine crash, go to bed. 'X' depends on your tollerance and various other personal factors, probably around 2-4 hours for most.

Jack Squat
2009-10-21, 09:49 AM
Theres more to addiction than 'habbit forming.' The expectation of suppression of withdrawal symptoms is a part of addiction too.

I know that. That's why I said "It's all in your head." Caffeine isn't addictive in the physiological sense, but one can be addicted to it (as with anything else) in the psychosomatic sense. Caffeine is exactly as addicting as an episode of The Office.

Trog
2009-10-21, 11:57 AM
The good news is that it's apparently not habit-forming, so all of you who say you're addicted - it's all in your head.
*SNRK! SNRK, I say! SNRK!!*
Oh silly me you're right I can quit any time I *cracks open a soda, chugs* Ahhh... anytime I... um... *twitchtwitch* What were we talking about again? *siiip*

Kcalehc
2009-10-21, 01:19 PM
I know that. That's why I said "It's all in your head."

Ah, ok. I thought you meant that as in "it's your imagination." Was not immediately clear that you meant "in a psychological kind of way."