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kamikasei
2009-10-12, 08:52 AM
Disclaimer: Apologies in advance if this question is entirely ignorant and time-wasting. I admit up front that, while I've read the core book, it was a while ago and I didn't get to play through anything to test it out. The question below arose in my mind in the last few days while creating a character for a new game, and it's possible that the answer is in the book and I just didn't come across it while skimming through to find the details I needed for chargen.

The question: As I understand it, in Exalted, you have two ways to avoid being hit by an attack. The one is Dodge, and the other is Parry. Dodge keys off the Dodge ability, Parry off either Melee or Martial Arts. My confusion is: given that you'll want to have some ability to deal out damage yourself, why isn't it strictly better from a mechanical POV to rely on Parry and only have to invest in one ability and family of charms for both attack and defense? (Granted that the defensive charms in your Parry ability are going to be separate from the offensive ones, still you only have to keep one ability up to meet minimums.)

Is there some mechanical reason why Dodge has an advantage over Parry? Is it that if you're primarily a ranged combatant focusing on Archery or Thrown, you can't use your offensive ability for Parry, and so are better off with Dodge? Does blocking rather than dodging an attack become a worse idea at higher power levels, because attacks have the potential to destroy your weapon or the like? Is it a style or flavour choice, that some characters just don't feel right with either a high close-quarters combat ability or with a weapon with a suitably high Defense bonus? Is it a matter of saying, "well, my character's thing is dodging attacks rather than blocking them"?

My concern is that the skilled unarmed fighter or swordsman (say) who doesn't block attacks with his hands or weapon but rather is simply impossible to land a hit on is in itself a strong and staple character concept, but as far as I can make out is strictly weaker because it requires investment in both Martial Arts/Melee and Dodge. Am I missing something, or is that assessment correct (and if there is a definite mechanical difference, is it just negligibly small?)

Thanks in advance for helping me get this annoying question out of my head!

Myrmex
2009-10-12, 09:13 AM
I don't know anything about Exalted, but wouldn't dodging bullets be cool, thus you get extra dice or something?

The Rose Dragon
2009-10-12, 09:18 AM
Dodge is a much cheaper defense. It has fewer defensive Charms that do the work of many more Melee charms. You cannot use your parry without a weapon, and if you are using Martial Arts, you cannot parry lethal attacks while unarmed. There are more attacks that cannot be parried than there are attacks that cannot be dodged. According to errata, there is even a spell that cannot be parried with a perfect parry (Total Annihilation). Finally, your Essence can go much higher than the Defense bonus of a weapon (which caps at +6 while using a Moonsilver Serpent Sting Staff).

All of this is only true for Solars and Abyssals, however. Terrestrials are hosed either way, while Lunar Dexterity charms give a general defensive boost rather than to a specific kind (though their only perfect defense is a Dodge). Sidereals are... Sidereals. Their Dodge Charms are rather esoteric and they have a single parry Charm I can remember (which is, incidentally, their only "true" perfect).

I hope that's been helpful.

Indon
2009-10-12, 09:20 AM
1E: You can abort to a 'full dodge', allowing you to dodge multiple attacks made at you in return for sacrificing your next action, an emergency move that you can't do with parrying.

2E: Since your Essence score is added to your Dodge DV and not your Parry DV, unless you have a weapon with high Defense (such as a defense-optimized Glorious Solar Saber), your Dodge DV has the potential of being higher than your Parry DV, though it requires a greater investment. It's also tricky to parry barehanded at times, and I don't know of many ways for a martial artist to rack up a high Defense capability, so martial artists in particular favor dodging.

Both editions: Some attacks can't be parried.

kamikasei
2009-10-12, 09:22 AM
Yup, I was thinking only of Solars.

And yes, that was quite helpful. So essentially it comes down to the fact that Dodge gets your Essence added in - which I'd forgotten, and is an excellent point - and then to the balance of various offensive and defensive charms, their cost, generality, and what they target, which is exactly the kind of thing I wasn't going to pick up just by glancing over the book. Cheers!


Both editions: Some attacks can't be parried.

Equally, though, some attacks can't be dodged.

The Rose Dragon
2009-10-12, 09:34 AM
Also, Reflex Sidestep Technique, a Dodge Charm that allows you to use your DVs against unexpected attacks, which should be in every physical combat combo.

kamikasei
2009-10-12, 09:36 AM
I don't know anything about Exalted, but wouldn't dodging bullets be cool, thus you get extra dice or something?

Cutting the bullets in half with your sword (or fists!) would also be cool, though.

And crap, it looks like I might have to look again at picking up a more balanced selection of Dodge and Parry defenses rather than focusing on Parry alone as I'd intended.

kestrel404
2009-10-12, 10:04 AM
Yup, I was thinking only of Solars.

Equally, though, some attacks can't be dodged.

Just as a side note, in 2nd edition, any attack which says: "This attack cannot be parried" or "This attack cannot be dodged", that only applies to Parry or Dodge DV. Perfect parries can parry attacks that cannot be parried. Same for dodges. It makes no sense, but it's still true.

Personally, I banned all perfects from my exalted game. There were no perfect attacks or defences. Things make more sense that way, and combat is no longer "Rock, Paper, Nuclear Weapon" in terms of choosing what you were going to throw at someone.

kamikasei
2009-10-12, 10:12 AM
Leaving aside super-attacks which can penetrate even perfect defenses...

There are perfect and non-perfect defenses for both Parry and Dodge. There are attacks which say they cannot be parried and others which say they cannot be dodged. So you can't say, "focus on Dodge because there are attacks which can't be parried" - in the first place, you can use a perfect parry defense, and in the second, the inverse is exactly as true ("focus on Parry because there are attacks which can't be dodged", but there are perfect dodge defenses), which means neither can be a guide.

Arguments on those bases have to come down to an analysis of the numbers of charms of each type and the frequency and cost of their use - they can't be made on principle, only empirically ("focus on Dodge because there are fewer Dodge charms you need to pick up and fewer attacks which can't be dodged than which can't be parried").

edit: Well, I guess now I'm wondering whether the advantages for Dodge that The Rose Dragon describes mean it should be used as a primary defence, or do they just compensate for the relative weakness I saw in my original post and leave Dodge and Parry equal, or is a balance between the two the route to go for a weapon-user with high Melee.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-12, 10:49 AM
Cutting the bullets in half with your sword (or fists!) would also be cool, though.

And crap, it looks like I might have to look again at picking up a more balanced selection of Dodge and Parry defenses rather than focusing on Parry alone as I'd intended.

Only if you cut the bullets so they split into angles. If you just split the bullet you are still hit, but smaller holes.

But yes, cutting will look cool. But as said, some things need to be dodged.

Kyeudo
2009-10-12, 11:53 AM
Personally, I banned all perfects from my exalted game. There were no perfect attacks or defences. Things make more sense that way, and combat is no longer "Rock, Paper, Nuclear Weapon" in terms of choosing what you were going to throw at someone.

This is a very bad idea. The core combat engine is designed with the primacy of defense as an absolute (in other words, most attacks DON'T hit). Removing Perfect Defenses without removing Perfect Attacks means that attack gains primacy (as in most attacks DO hit) at the high end (meaning anything with Solars).

As such, Perfect Attacks like Accuracy Without Distance become overwhelming. No one except a Stamina-focused Lunars has enough Soak or Health Levels to survive taking a hit every single round; that's just the way the game was made.

If you do remove both Perfect Attacks and Perfect Defenses, things get a little back to normal, but Terrestrials will move up in power, possibly eclipsing Sidereals in actual combat ability (barring Sidereal Martial Arts), something that is probably not a good idea.

Artanis
2009-10-12, 12:03 PM
Personally, I banned all perfects from my exalted game. There were no perfect attacks or defences. Things make more sense that way, and combat is no longer "Rock, Paper, Nuclear Weapon" in terms of choosing what you were going to throw at someone.

That is a very, very good way to get the characters killed. Instantly. In their first fight. Without trying.

wadledo
2009-10-12, 12:06 PM
.....Both of you do realize that he said no perfect ATTACKS and defenses, right?:smallconfused:

lord_khaine
2009-10-12, 12:08 PM
If you do remove both Perfect Attacks and Perfect Defenses, things get a little back to normal, but Terrestrials will move up in power, possibly eclipsing Sidereals in actual combat ability (barring Sidereal Martial Arts), something that is probably not a good idea.

He did start by saying that he removed all perfects, that was including both attacks and defences.

The Rose Dragon
2009-10-12, 12:10 PM
That is a very, very good way to get the characters killed. Instantly. In their first fight. Without trying.

I wonder how all those Terrestrials survive their first fights, then, lacking perfect defenses and all.

It will not mean insta-death for the characters. It will, however, make the setting much less epic. Terrestrials are powerful, but their fighting is not considered fit for an Exalt by Tachi-Kun, the Central God of War. Mostly because they lack perfect effects and cannot take risks the Celestials can.

Kyeudo
2009-10-12, 12:23 PM
.....Both of you do realize that he said no perfect ATTACKS and defenses, right?:smallconfused:

When you are talking about Exalted and someone says "a Perfect", the assumption is that they mean a Perfect Defense, since Perfect Attacks don't get talked about as often.


I wonder how all those Terrestrials survive their first fights, then, lacking perfect defenses and all.


They weren't fighting Solars for their first fight.

Once you have some XP, a Dragon-Blood can get access to some semi-perfect effects that can almost make up for their lack of perfects, but until then they have an expected combat lifetime of about 10 ticks (against a Celestial Exalt).

Terraoblivion
2009-10-12, 12:30 PM
I'd say that for a weapon user with high melee and a somewhat tight budget, sticking to melee is the better call. Buying two abilities and charm trees up is pretty expensive. In fact i would put trying to balance both the lowest, beneath picking Dodge despite having melee as your primary combat stat.

In the longer term or when you develop a bigger budget doing both is a good idea, especially given how small the dodge charm tree is.

kamikasei
2009-10-12, 12:57 PM
When you are talking about Exalted and someone says "a Perfect", the assumption is that they mean a Perfect Defense, since Perfect Attacks don't get talked about as often.

This is why it's a good idea to read entire posts before replying to them.


They weren't fighting Solars for their first fight.

Nor are most Solars.


In the longer term or when you develop a bigger budget doing both is a good idea, especially given how small the dodge charm tree is.

Thanks - I'll look at the charms and see what's what, have the trees and costs worked out so I can decide when to buy them.

TheOOB
2009-10-12, 12:58 PM
Yeah, dodge is easier to get high numbers, with essence bonus and hearthstone bracers. You don't need a weapon to use it(though you can stunt to parry lethal attacks so not that big of an issue).

Seven Shadow Evasion costs 3m to activate and only has one prerequisite, while Heavenly Guardian Defense costs 4m and has three prerequisites. The dodge tree is also smaller and has more charms that allow you to use dodge in creative ways.

For pure defense, dodge is the better ability, it's cheaper and more effective at what it does. Parry has some advantages, first it uses your attacking ability(assuming you are melee or martial arts), and second the cool counterattack charms require you to be using parry as your defense.

And don't discount the attacks that cannot be dodged/parried. Even solars don't have the essence to perfectly defend against every attack, and unless you used a combo you can't use your perfect defense if you already used another charm. Trust me, it sucks when you just used the first melee excellency, and then someone launches an unparryable attack at you.

Oh, and if you GM doesn't allow perfect techniques, don't play Celestial Exalts. One of the greatest hallmarks of being a Celestial(especially a Solar) is having perfect techniques. If you GM doesn't like that level of power, play Dragon-Blooded Exalts.

Kyeudo
2009-10-12, 01:29 PM
Nor are most Solars.


But Solars can actually survive a fight with a Solar, Infernal, or Abyssal.

To put how powerful Solars are in terms that are easy to understand: The strongest statted out opponent is the Mask of Winters. He is Essence 10 and has every Solar and Abyssal Charm printed. A starting Circle of combat-focused Solars can almost take him. Add something like 15 sessions of XP and they can take him down, with some losses.

Artanis
2009-10-12, 03:15 PM
.....Both of you do realize that he said no perfect ATTACKS and defenses, right?:smallconfused:

Yes. Yes I do.


I wonder how all those Terrestrials survive their first fights, then, lacking perfect defenses and all.

It will not mean insta-death for the characters. It will, however, make the setting much less epic. Terrestrials are powerful, but their fighting is not considered fit for an Exalt by Tachi-Kun, the Central God of War. Mostly because they lack perfect effects and cannot take risks the Celestials can.

DBs survive fights by not trying not to go up against something liable to have instagib attacks :smallbiggrin:

Lapak
2009-10-12, 03:32 PM
But Solars can actually survive a fight with a Solar, Infernal, or Abyssal.

To put how powerful Solars are in terms that are easy to understand: The strongest statted out opponent is the Mask of Winters. He is Essence 10 and has every Solar and Abyssal Charm printed. A starting Circle of combat-focused Solars can almost take him. Add something like 15 sessions of XP and they can take him down, with some losses.To give those of us who haven't played some context in terms of how powerful that actually is, how many starting-strength Terrestrials would it take to give him a fight?

Indon
2009-10-12, 03:41 PM
To give those of us who haven't played some context in terms of how powerful that actually is, how many starting-strength Terrestrials would it take to give him a fight?

Enough to force him to run out of Essence. Depending on how the GM runs Mask in terms of stunts and charms, that could be impossible, or it might only take one or two hundred.

This is assuming Mask has no undead near him, and somehow no way to escape (such as sorcery, which he can do), and is not in a Shadowland or the Underworld.

Artanis
2009-10-12, 07:22 PM
To give those of us who haven't played some context in terms of how powerful that actually is, how many starting-strength Terrestrials would it take to give him a fight?

EXALTALISK RUSH!!!

Weimann
2009-10-12, 07:48 PM
Just as an aside, it should be pointed out that there is in fact a third defense option for Solars, which is the Resistance ability. While not adding anything to defenses on it's own, there is a wonderful little charm called Iron-Skin Concentration with only one prerequisite (Durability Of Oak Meditation).

Iron-skin Concentration has the advantage over Parry and Dodge charms in that it is activated at a later stage of attack resolution. If you use a perfect dodge, you will need to declare that dodge on the step of attack resolution where you would normally have dodged. Therefore, you don't know if your normal DV might have sufficed to totally defend you without using the charm. The fact that Iron-Skin Concentration let's you get BOTH a chance to Parry or Dodge and allow for a way to cancel all damage anyway is a wonderful tactical advantage.

The problem is of course that Iron-Skin Concentration isn't a perfect defense as such, since you have to roll a (Stamina+Resistance) roll with the attacker's Essence as difficulty. However, someone using this charm as their primary defense will have those stats high. Also, even if it fails to negate all damage, it still gives you a big bonus to soak against that attack. Combined with the delayed activation, that makes this charm a definite winner.

Naturally, at some point you'll want a real perfect defense that works ALL of the time. Fear not, Adamant Skin Technique only is only two steps farther up the charm tree.

Naturally, there are some drawbacks. Unlike with Dodge and Parry, you actually get HIT here, it's just you turn your body so hard you negate damage. That means that touch attacks with other nasty effects besides damage might still affect you, something that won't happen with Dodge, where you completely avoid the attack. Also, the ability itself doesn't help you any, which can seem like a futile investment if you aren't interested in the other Resistance charms (but there are MANY others :P).

So yeah. I like Resistance.

Edit: To see an example of Resistance in action, please behold the lower part of this comic page.
http://keychain.patternspider.net/comics/koc0042.png

Indon
2009-10-12, 07:59 PM
So yeah. I like Resistance.

And it's even better for a Twilight caste, as you can gain essence using Resistance charms from minor incoming damage, then activate your Anima power for a chance to nullify that damage.

Kyeudo
2009-10-12, 09:27 PM
To give those of us who haven't played some context in terms of how powerful that actually is, how many starting-strength Terrestrials would it take to give him a fight?

Here's how I'd figure it:

Scenario:
An army of Dragon-Blooded, ten thousand strong but all newly Exalted, lay siege to the Mask of Winter's soulsteel fortress. All are armed with Jade Daiklaves and Jade Lamellar Armor and have specialized in combat. They slaughter all of the MoW's deathknights, all his ghostly servants, and any heckatonkires the MoW's may have in his service and confront him in his throne room, which is only large enough for 5 Dragon-Blooded to fight the MoW at any given time. Only Dragon-Blooded with full Essence Pools enter the throne room to fight and fight to the death, where on they are immediately replaced.

The MoW knows they are coming, so he fights with both Fivefold Bulwark Stance and Flow Like Blood active, negating all onslaught penalties from both his Parry DV and Dodge DV, negative coordinated attack penalties from his Dodge DV, and reduces the DV penalty of his actions by 1. Now that he is engaged in combat, we will assume that he uses only Seven Shadows Evasion as his Charm (and not any of the other Solar or Abyssal Charms which he knows, the custom Charms he is noted as having developed, or the innumerable Combos which he must possess) for every action. His remaining mote pool after attunement costs and persistant defenses is 270, so he can use SSE a total of 135 times.

To simplify the problem, we will ignore the fact that every successful attack made using the MoW's Soulsteel Grand Daiklave restores 2 motes to the MoW. We will also ignore Elemental Surcharges, Stunt Bonuses, Virtue Channels, and the effects of the MoW's eponynomus Mask of Winters.

Some facts:
The MoW has 20 dice in his attack pool for his Soulsteel Grand Daiklave, averaging him 10 successes a swing with his full pool. His Parry DV is only 7, but his Dodge DV, even in Soulsteel Superheavy Plate, is 13. The MoW has 45 fighting health levels total and a Soak of 14L damage. Any hit from the Mask of Winters deals an average of 5 health levels plus extra successes.

A starting Dragon-Blooded's base DV is no more than 8, which he can pump with an Excellency and usually maintain at about 12 DV for as long as his Essence pool holds. Using an Excellency at maximum costs a Dragon-Blooded 4 motes an attack. A Essence 2 Dragon-Blood with Breeding 5 has an Essence Pool of about 42. This gives a Dragon-Blood 10 attacks worth of maximum Excellency use. Exalts rarely take more than one Ox-Body Technique at the low XP end, so the average Dragon-Blood will have a total of 9 fighting health levels.

The Tactics:
The Dragon-Blooded, being intelligent fighters, know that the MoW is likely to have some sort of persistant defense, so they don't waste actions coordinating attacks. To maximize their chances of getting through the MoW's DV's they only make a single attack per round, averaging 12 successes after Excellency and 8 before. Since they need to use maximum Excellency use to be safe against the MoW attacks and to have a chance of penetrating his defense, they do so with every attack.
The MoW, on the other hand, is also an intelligent fighter. He makes two attacks per round, at an average of 9 successes each against one of the Dragon-Blooded, slaying each one before moving on and preying on Dragon-Blooded who are out of Essence. The MoW will only SSE against attacks that could potentially hit him, thus he will only SSE against Excellency boosted attacks. Because the Mask of Winters is an intelligent opponent and fighting no more than 5 Dragon-Blooded at the time, he keeps his back to a wall and so avoids the penalties for being surrounded.

The Combat:
The battle starts with 5 fully charged Dragon-Blooded versus the MoW. For ease of use, we'll give the DBs the advantage in Inititive and say that the MoW rolled crappy and only tied the DBs in initive. The DB's get 3 actions to the MoW's two, so the MoWs perfects 15 attacks and the DBs Excellency 19 attacks per cycle. The first DB falls to the MoW's fourth flurry, the next to his seventh flurry, and the body count keeps climbing from there. Each DB can only survive for an average of one cycle once the MoW begins attacking him, with a minority lasting two. At least six Dragon-Blooded die just to exhaust his Essence Pool, taking 9 cycles to do so.

Now they get to start in on the MoW 45 health levels. Each strike from a DB doesnt average any successes against the MoW's DVs and his Soak is sufficient to reduce all damage to ping, which is 2 dice. Assuming that each attack made with Excellency boost somehow hits, the MoW takes 30 dice of damage every cycle. Assuming the average of 1 in 3 dice being a success on the damage rolls, the MoWs takes 10 health levels of damage per cycle. Exhausting his health levels therefore takes another 4 and a half cylces and costs another 4 Dragon-Blooded their lives.

Disclaimer:
Do note that this is only a crude approximation that heavily favors the Dragon-Blooded by playing the MoW much stupider than his Intelligence of 6 should allow. In a real situation, well-used Combos and Charms, including Ravening Mouth of Melee, would mean much worse carnage among the DBs.


TL; DR version: 13-15 Dragon-Blooded die.

Alternate scenario:

Assuming the same scenario as above, we instead posit different combat tactics by the MoWs. He still activates his persistant defenses, but now instead of using only SSE, he activates Melee Essence Flow and commits 40 motes to it. This reduces his Excellency costs by 20 for the scene, incidentally the maximum possible cost for Solar/Abyssal Excellencies. He now uses his Second Melee Excellency against all attacks, raising his Parry DV to 17. None of the Dragon-Blooded can hope to reliably hit that high of a DV and this defensive strategy costs the MoW no Essence. He also now attacks with an average of 18, making every attack a near guaranteed hit.

So long as the Mask of Winters prevents opponents from getting an unexpected attack against him, he cannot be relaibly harmed and so slaughters Dragon-Blooded with near impunity.


TL;DR version: The Mask of Winters just dyed his carpet red.