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View Full Version : [3.5] how best to enervate the heck out of a bunch of guys?



jiriku
2009-10-13, 10:10 AM
When I chain an enervation spell, do the secondary targets take half as many negative levels? I seem to recall some verbage in Complete Arcane specifying that ability damage and negative levels are considered "damage".

Edit: My original idea doesn't work. Changing title to reflect that I'm now seeking an alternate way to accomplish the same goal.

nightwyrm
2009-10-13, 10:11 AM
It doesn't. Enervation is a ray spell and thus cannot be chained.

sambo.
2009-10-13, 10:44 AM
It doesn't. Enervation is a ray spell and thus cannot be chained.

how do you figure that?


Any spell that specifies a single target and has a range greater than touch can be chained....

don't say nowt about No Ray's anywhere in there. unless there's another description in another splatbook somewhere that overrides this one.

@OP: i'd say chain away. resolve the negative levels for the primary and halve that for each secondary target (if I was the DM, i'd say: Round Down. so throw a 1 on the d4 for negative levels and too bad, the secondary arcs have no effect. throw a 2 on that d4 and if secondary targets make their save: no effect)

nightwyrm
2009-10-13, 10:59 AM
If you look at ray spells, you'd see that there's no entry for Target. It has instead Effect: Rays.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enervation.htm

jiriku
2009-10-13, 11:09 AM
Ok, well, supposing I need to dish out a whole bunch of negative levels in a hurry. How about a twinned chained orb of x? Would that deal 2 negative levels to all the secondary targets?

Edit: I meant to include fell drain in this combo. Shame on me for typing too quickly. If ray spells are not viable, substitute single-target damage spell of choice, like a reach spell shocking grasp or something.

sambo.
2009-10-13, 11:10 AM
heres the final line out of another popular Ray spell, Disintegrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm):


Only the first creature or object struck can be affected; that is, the ray affects only one target per casting.

Disintegrate affects only one target per casting, says so right there in the spell description. so, can i Chain Disintegrate, but not Enervation or any other ray that doesn't specifically state "only affects one target"?

i'll admit to being reasonably n00b at 3.5ed.

and mind you, looking at some of the rays, perhaps it's not such a bad idea to prevent them being chained.

nightwyrm
2009-10-13, 11:13 AM
best way to do it would be to use twinned, split ray, (empowered) enervation.

I don't think orb spells can be chained either since they're "Effect" spells rather than "Target" spells. Usually, spells only have one of those categories in their entry.

nightwyrm
2009-10-13, 11:15 AM
heres the final line out of another popular Ray spell, Disintegrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm):



Disintegrate affects only one target per casting, says so right there in the spell description. so, can i Chain Disintegrate, but not Enervation or any other ray that doesn't specifically state "only affects one target"?

i'll admit to being reasonably n00b at 3.5ed.

and mind you, looking at some of the rays, perhaps it's not such a bad idea to prevent them being chained.

Chaining requires a "Target" entry in the beginning of the spell entry, such as Baleful Polymorph (http://http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm)

Rays are always Effect: rays and thus lack the Target heading.

JeminiZero
2009-10-13, 11:23 AM
Ok, well, supposing I need to dish out a whole bunch of negative levels in a hurry. How about a twinned chained orb of x? Would that deal 2 negative levels to all the secondary targets?

I think Fell Drain would work nicely here. Its a +2 metamagic that drains 1 level, if the spell it is attached to does damage to a living target. So lets say you apply it to magic missle, at CL9, you can shoot 5 magic missles. Apply Fell Drain, and each of those magic missles can drain 1 level from 5 different targets (provided it damages the target) on a level 3 spell slot. You can also apply it to chained damage spells.

If however, you target all 5 missles at one target, the rules gets iffy. The way Fell Drain is worded, it can be intepreted that the target is *damaged* by the spell and so loses 1 negative level despite being hit by 5 missles.

Lycanthromancer
2009-10-13, 11:30 AM
Empowered, Fell-Drained, Split, Twinned, Flash-Frosted enervation?

jiriku
2009-10-13, 11:34 AM
empower, fell drain, and split i can see. Why flash frost? Doesn't that just add some piddly cold damage and create an ice slick?

Boci
2009-10-13, 11:38 AM
empower, fell drain, and split i can see. Why flash frost? Doesn't that just add some piddly cold damage and create an ice slick?

You need a spell to do damage in order to fell drain it.

Kylarra
2009-10-13, 11:41 AM
flash frost requires area effect, what you want is black lore of moil or deathfrost :smalltongue: piddling damage bonuses go

jiriku
2009-10-13, 11:58 AM
Hmm, so a fell drain twinned magic missile could deal 2 negative levels to up to 5 targets. That's not bad. With two metamagic reducers, I could fit that in a 3rd level slot or quicken it in a 5th level slot.

Even better, a chain fell drain twinned moilian blindness would inflict 1 negative levels on 1+CL targets, and with two reducers I could fit that in a 5th level slot or quicken it in a 7th level slot.

Casting two of those in the first round of combat would be a pretty hefty debuff, and would soften up my targets enough that on the next round I could execute a finishing move against the most troublesome enemy using a souped-up enervation.

Random832
2009-10-13, 12:01 PM
Empowered, Fell-Drained, Split, Twinned, Flash-Frosted enervation?

Empowered, Fell-Drained, Split, Twinned, Flash-Frosted locate city?

(sorry, whenever I see flash frost I think of that)

lsfreak
2009-10-13, 12:03 PM
Necrotic Skull Bomb from... Champions of Ruin I believe. 5th level, swift action, 20-foot burst, 1d4 negative levels, but allows a Fort save.

Energy Sub (Electric) Born of Three Thunders Fell Drain Freezing Fog. 1 negative level every round, and every round must make two Reflex saves or fall prone, one of which also triggers a Fort save or stun, and must make balance checks to move, and drops move speed down to 5 feet. Only works if they don't have Freedom of Movement or teleport.

Kylarra
2009-10-13, 12:04 PM
Empowered, Fell-Drained, Split, Twinned, Flash-Frosted locate city?

(sorry, whenever I see flash frost I think of that)Nah swap empowered for fell animate and use the rod that gives you up to 8 HD*caster level of zombies.

Radar
2009-10-13, 12:53 PM
best way to do it would be to use twinned, split ray, (empowered) enervation.

(...)
Hmm... needs Ocular Spell on top of other metamagic. :smallbiggrin:

jiriku
2009-10-13, 01:01 PM
Necrotic Skull Bomb from... Champions of Ruin I believe. 5th level, swift action, 20-foot burst, 1d4 negative levels, but allows a Fort save.

Energy Sub (Electric) Born of Three Thunders Fell Drain Freezing Fog. 1 negative level every round, and every round must make two Reflex saves or fall prone, one of which also triggers a Fort save or stun, and must make balance checks to move, and drops move speed down to 5 feet. Only works if they don't have Freedom of Movement or teleport.

And I think we have a couple of winners here. Do you know offhand whether necrotic skull bomb is Fort/half or Fort/negates?

lsfreak
2009-10-13, 01:25 PM
And I think we have a couple of winners here. Do you know offhand whether necrotic skull bomb is Fort/half or Fort/negates?

Unfortunately, it's Fort negates. Though with an area-effect and a high enough save DC, even that shouldn't be too big a deal, depending on what you're trying to hit.

Another problem with the Fell Drain Freezing Fog is that they have to take damage in order for it to work and it only does 1d6/rnd, the good part being that it's half sonic (from BoTT) and not much will get rid of that damage.

JeminiZero
2009-10-13, 08:00 PM
Energy Sub (Electric) Born of Three Thunders Fell Drain Freezing Fog. 1 negative level every round, and every round must make two Reflex saves or fall prone, one of which also triggers a Fort save or stun, and must make balance checks to move, and drops move speed down to 5 feet. Only works if they don't have Freedom of Movement or teleport.


Works if your DM doesn't intepret DoTs as draining a level only the first time a creature takes damage. As mentioned above Fell Drain (http://www.realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Fell_Drain,all) is worded rather awkwardly with regard to spells that deals damage multiple times to the same creature.

Rainbownaga
2009-10-14, 02:43 AM
Hmm, so a fell drain twinned magic missile could deal 2 negative levels to up to 5 targets. That's not bad. With two metamagic reducers, I could fit that in a 3rd level slot or quicken it in a 5th level slot.


Unfortunately you're still only applying the fel drain once, so RAW it shouldn't deal double energy drain, and since twin selects the same targets, it's actually a bit of a waste.

jiriku
2009-10-14, 11:53 AM
Hmm, fel drain freezing fog is looking better then. My DM has been pretty consistent in ruling that metamagic that adds damage or special effects does so repeatedly if the spell deals damage over time.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-14, 12:07 PM
heres the final line out of another popular Ray spell, Disintegrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm):



Disintegrate affects only one target per casting, says so right there in the spell description. so, can i Chain Disintegrate, but not Enervation or any other ray that doesn't specifically state "only affects one target"?

i'll admit to being reasonably n00b at 3.5ed.

and mind you, looking at some of the rays, perhaps it's not such a bad idea to prevent them being chained.


Ray

Some effects are rays. You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack. As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something. You donít have to see the creature youíre trying to hit, as you do with a targeted spell. Intervening creatures and obstacles, however, can block your line of sight or provide cover for the creature youíre aiming at.

Rays are specifically exempted from targeted spells in the description. This would be primary source.

Fishy
2009-10-14, 12:17 PM
Hmm, fel drain freezing fog is looking better then. My DM has been pretty consistent in ruling that metamagic that adds damage or special effects does so repeatedly if the spell deals damage over time.

Fell Draining Thunderhead! Muahaha.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-14, 12:39 PM
Hmm, fel drain freezing fog is looking better then. My DM has been pretty consistent in ruling that metamagic that adds damage or special effects does so repeatedly if the spell deals damage over time.

The problem with this is that Fell Drain explicitly says each creature can get only 1 negative level per spell cast.

lsfreak
2009-10-14, 03:37 PM
The problem with this is that Fell Drain explicitly says each creature can get only 1 negative level per spell cast.


You can alter a spell that deals damage to foes so that
any living creature that is dealt damage also gains a negative
level.

I see no such limit.

Kallisti
2009-10-14, 03:42 PM
Fell Draining Thunderhead! Muahaha.

This. Definitely this.

DragoonWraith
2009-10-14, 03:46 PM
Rays are specifically exempted from targeted spells in the description. This would be primary source.
I would argue that Chain Spell does not require "Target: One Creature", but rather just a spell that only affects one creature - a quality most rays have.

lsfreak
2009-10-14, 03:54 PM
I would argue that Chain Spell does not require "Target: One Creature", but rather just a spell that only affects one creature - a quality most rays have.


Any spell that specifies a single target
Ray spells never specify a target and are therefore ineligible.

EDIT: Not that it's not a reasonable house rule, but by RAW it doesn't work.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-10-14, 04:00 PM
Warlocks can also get into the game, using Utterdark Blast and Chain Blast to deal negative levels to everything in the area. If you Quicken SLA, this means you can be dishing out four negative levels to a lot of things.

Fell Drain Magic Missiles are also fun.

DragoonWraith
2009-10-14, 04:01 PM
Blargh, I forgot they had the word specifies in there.

I guess you could technically argue that with a Ray you are targetting a direction more than anything else...