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Eldan
2009-10-14, 09:24 AM
So, a little context on this one first. I had a game about two years ago. As usual, it was Planescape and, as it so often is, a city adventure in Sigil. In an adventure that involved, amongst other things, a Grimlock rat catcher, two troglodytes and a handful of Tieflings and other planetouched, one of the players, playing a beguiler or bard, I forgot which, turned towards me and said: "Hey, will there be a single NPC I can charm in this campaign?"

Made me think.

So, the idea is basically the following: I thought about including two new subtypes for creatures, "Mortal" and "Immortal". The names are not entirely perfect, but they more or less embody what they are about.

Humanoids, Monstrous Humanoids, native outsiders and, maybe, giants have the mortal subtype.

Most other creatures have the immortal subtype, especially full-blooded outsiders, dragons (which technically in the fluff aren't immortal) and fey.


Spells that normally only affect humanoids, such as charm person affect all creatures with the "mortal" subtype.


Is this in any way extremely unbalanced? It will make Dominate person and hold person more useful, sure, and weaken the planetouched, which already are seen as a little weak... so, should they get some other bonus instead? Maybe a bonus against these spells?

Ashtagon
2009-10-14, 09:39 AM
enlarge person on an ogre (any any Large PC race) seems a little overpowered.

jokey665
2009-10-14, 09:53 AM
enlarge person on an ogre (any any Large PC race) seems a little overpowered.

No more overpowered than a Half-Minotaur Goliath manifesting Expansion, I would imagine.

Eldan
2009-10-14, 10:12 AM
enlarge person on an ogre (any any Large PC race) seems a little overpowered.

Good point, though. Exclude giants then, perhaps? Including monstrous humanoids and native outsiders still seems okay to me, though.

Ashtagon
2009-10-14, 11:51 AM
No more overpowered than a Half-Minotaur Goliath manifesting Expansion, I would imagine.

Now imagine that same character with enlarge person and a;l the other size abuses stacked.

Although I tend to houserule that you can only have one level of actual size increase and one level of "use an oversized object" increase; they don't stack beyond that.

Another obvious abuse seems to be dominate person on some outsider that shouldn't really be dominatable. It's probably worth going through the list to make sure there aren't any more of these gotchas.

One other thing I've seen is a general houserule that anything that says "immunity to xxxx" gets changed to "+10 bonus on saves against xxxx", except in very obvious cases, such as fire-bodied creatures being immune to fire. This way, that bard could still try to charm his enemies, but they generally have a +10 on saves - very difficult, but possible if he stacks the save modifiers enough.

TheLaughingLich
2009-10-14, 12:36 PM
Although I tend to houserule that you can only have one level of actual size increase and one level of "use an oversized object" increase; they don't stack beyond that.
That's the normal rule for most of them. For example, Enlarge Person and Expansion both note that "Multiple effects that increase size do not stack".

Eldan
2009-10-14, 12:45 PM
Well, outsiders aren't included, only native outsiders. And I don't think there are (m)any apart from Genasi and the Planetouched, are there?

Edit: of course, I could just say "by the way guys, from now on, Tieflings and Aasimar can be charmed too", but this just seems more professional.

Ouranos
2009-10-14, 12:52 PM
mayhaps, simply include a disclaimer that affects that would be simply OP as hell (i.e. enlarging large people) Doesn't work? Certain spells continue on as they are, while others get the change.

Zeta Kai
2009-10-14, 01:41 PM
Edit: of course, I could just say "by the way guys, from now on, Tieflings and Aasimar can be charmed too", but this just seems more professional.

For, the purposes of your campaign, such a houserule would probably be more efficient & appropriate than adding a homebrewed subtype with potentially-troublesome repercussions.

Lysander
2009-10-14, 02:46 PM
Why not rule that mental spells can affect any races common in a person's culture?

Zeta Kai
2009-10-14, 04:19 PM
Why not rule that mental spells can affect any races common in a person's culture?

The Neighbor Clause: The sentient creatures living in your local area (as defined by your DM) can be affected by a spell that you cast with the [Mind-Affecting] descriptor.

Now that's rules-lawyering. :smallwink: