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deuxhero
2009-10-17, 08:07 PM
I'm pretty sure (might be wrong, not an expert) that when non-native outsiders (or at least demons) are brought to -10 HP aren't killed, but merely banished back to their homeplane for a period of time.

Anyway to give them an actual death?

Starbuck_II
2009-10-17, 08:09 PM
I'm pretty sure (might be wrong, not an expert) that when non-native outsiders (or at least demons) are brought to -10 HP aren't killed, but merely banished back to their homeplane for a period of time.

Anyway to give them an actual death?

Call them instead of summon them. Called creatures are dead permenently.

Ravens_cry
2009-10-17, 08:09 PM
Or do what Doom Guy did in Doom, take the fight to them, as it were.

deuxhero
2009-10-17, 08:11 PM
I was pretty sure something like what I was describing applied to a demon who Gated or Planeshifted himself to the prime material and got his ass handed to him.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-17, 08:16 PM
I was pretty sure something like what I was describing applied to a demon who Gated or Planeshifted himself to the prime material and got his ass handed to him.

Then they goofed because unless they have some special magic spell/item that isn't how it worked. Unless you are mentioning 2E. The rules in 2E were different than 3.5.
2E: banished. Because the was no such thing as a Called effect. Demons were always considered Summoned.
In 3.5: they are dead as they were Called. Unless DM fiat.


In 2E, Neverwinter Nights had a demon lord dude who if killed was just prevented from returning for 1000 years, but they have that special magic I mentioned.
A regular demon/devil is gone for good.

Yuki Akuma
2009-10-17, 08:16 PM
Depends on the outsider.

I think Devils or Demons just get banished. Others actually die.

Set
2009-10-17, 08:25 PM
Trap them via Trap the Soul or Magic Jar or something?

I wonder if Thinaun or a Barghest's Feed ability can counter the Outsiders 'get out of death, free' card?

Bind them into possessing a mortal, and then cast Imprisonment, Temporal Stasis or Flesh to Stone on the mortal. (Would need some way to make them unable to stop possessing the mortal, although both of these tactics seem like they would work.)

Establish an order of monks who tattoo themselves with binding sigils and then allow themselves to be possessed by summoned fiends. The magic circle tattoos prevent the fiend from getting out, once it's in, and the remaining monks lock up and care for their possessed brethren, each of which has devoted his life to containing a fiend for as long as his health holds out.

Xenogears
2009-10-17, 11:24 PM
Trap them via Trap the Soul or Magic Jar or something?

I wonder if Thinaun or a Barghest's Feed ability can counter the Outsiders 'get out of death, free' card?

Bind them into possessing a mortal, and then cast Imprisonment, Temporal Stasis or Flesh to Stone on the mortal. (Would need some way to make them unable to stop possessing the mortal, although both of these tactics seem like they would work.)

Establish an order of monks who tattoo themselves with binding sigils and then allow themselves to be possessed by summoned fiends. The magic circle tattoos prevent the fiend from getting out, once it's in, and the remaining monks lock up and care for their possessed brethren, each of which has devoted his life to containing a fiend for as long as his health holds out.

You could always just combine the spells (ironically both from BoVD) Impototent Possessor (Cant affact possessed body) and I forget the name of the other spell but it prevents the possossee from leaving. So those two spells render the target trapped in a body but unable to do anything with it. Then put the body in Stasis, transport it to your private demi-plane, and you have effectively killed the outsider as it can never escape.

Rixx
2009-10-18, 01:23 AM
Rip and tear their guts!

They're huge! That means they have huge guts! Rip and tear!!

deuxhero
2009-10-18, 09:03 AM
Pretty sure that falls under killing them normally and does nothing.

For a "normal" creature it would prevent the most basic ressurection magic, but not much else.

hamishspence
2009-10-18, 09:11 AM
According to Fiendish Codex 1 powerful demons slain, even in the abyss, come back- but they usually get demoted.

I think there is something similar in Fiendish Codex 2.

That said, even if you are using "cannot come back by themselves" there are still spells like True Resurrection, Wish/Miracle, and Revive Outsider, that work.

Ellardin
2009-10-18, 09:44 AM
When in Doubt ....BALEFIRE

Zaq
2009-10-18, 04:22 PM
Two of the most obtuse and unusable abilities from the Truenaming chapter of ToM can help.

The 9th level spell Unname can permanently remove a creature from the universe, or as close as you can reasonably come in D&D without getting into a Sphere of Annihilation. You have to know their personal truename (easier said than done) AND successfully make the Truespeak check (if they're high enough CR that you're casting a 9th level spell on them, this is non-trivial, though Moment of Prescience helps). They still get a save and SR, too, so it's really a losing proposition, but it CAN be done.

Also, the capstone of the Bereft class ("Word of Unmaking," I believe it's called) can similarly make a creature unable to come back, in that it says that nothing other than a Ritual of Renaming AND a True Rez will bring them back. It doesn't specifically mention that it overrides an outsider's ability to reform, but if anything should, it would be this.

Neither of these are viable options, of course. Both require a huge investment of Truespeak, and you either have to learn the creature's personal truename (to do this, it takes a number of successful checks equal to 1/2 the creature's CR. Each check takes a full week of non-stop research.) or take five levels in a really crappy prestige class (you're seriously better off just being a Truenamer rather than playing a Bereft. This is not a good thing. It's cool and flavorful, but mechanically it's terrible. If the abilities, other than the first one, didn't allow saves, it would be ACCEPTABLE but still underpowered, but as it is... ugh. You have to make a Truespeak check AND spell resistance applies AND they get a save, which is based on a really terrible formula involving an off-stat and your class level, in a 5-level class. Oh, and these aren't Utterances, so you can't Quicken them. Terrible class.) In either case, you have to actually make the Truespeak check, which is easier said than done, since I assume you're fighting a creature with a non-trivial CR. Finally, neither of these comes into play early... you can get the Bereft capstone at ECL 15 at the earliest (The class requires 13 ranks in Truespeak and the relevant ability comes at level 5), and Unname is a 9th level spell (I guess you can buy a scroll of it if you have a truly amazing Magic Mart, but...), so that's not happening any time soon.

Truenaming sucks and gets no love, but it technically would help you keep someone from coming back if you take some of its weakest and most obscure options. It just won't do it efficiently. I just felt like, since no one else (including WotC) has ever read the Truenaming chapter seriously, I should mention it. I don't ENDORSE these abilities, because they're stupid, but they do exist.

bosssmiley
2009-10-18, 04:54 PM
Traditionally you had to kill a creature on its home plane to kill it permanently. Otherwise they could just do the old "I'll be back, and then you'll pay!" when ganked. This went for PCs as well as extra-planar creatures.

The reason for this? Gate was a 9th level spell, so most (non-uber) people would be going plane-hopping thanks to astral spell instead. Gate let you walk bodily from one plane to another, as did various (once-upon-a-time rare and dangerous) planar rifts. Die in your own body, and you died for good.

Astral spell instead created astral bodies for you and your adventuring buddies with which you all went off adventuring in the outer planes while your real bodies tranced out at home. You'd go floating off through the astral having wacky Jack Kirbyesque adventures until you found the right colour pool to enter the outer plane you wanted. Hop through the colour pool and your astral body would draw local planar matter around itself to resolidify you.

Get killed in astral form, or on an outer plane, and you'd generally ding back to your native body, shaken and wobbly but unkilled. Only certain things (githyanki, astral dreadnoughts, gods) could sever the silver cord connecting your two bodies and kill you for real.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-18, 08:18 PM
Fiendish Codex 2, page 16, states Devils are perma-slain if killed on their home plane. This could be extended to all outsiders.

sofawall
2009-10-18, 08:22 PM
Fiendish Codex 2, page 16, states Devils are perma-slain if killed on their home plane. This could be extended to all outsiders.

Except, apparently, Demons.


According to Fiendish Codex 1 powerful demons slain, even in the abyss, come back- but they usually get demoted.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-18, 08:25 PM
If a demon is killed while within the Abyss, it is permanently destroyed—both its body and its essence. For this reason, many demons are relatively more cautious on their home turf than when wreaking havoc on another plane.

Well, that was easier to find than the section in FC1.

PS: FC2 page 18 states 99 years as the resurrection time for a devil slain outside the Hells.

Inhuman Bot
2009-10-18, 09:28 PM
In 2E, Neverwinter Nights had a demon lord dude who if killed was just prevented from returning for 1000 years, but they have that special magic I mentioned.
A regular demon/devil is gone for good.

I assume you mean Baldur's gate, as NWN wasn't 2E?

Lysander
2009-10-18, 09:33 PM
Cast imprisonment on them.

deuxhero
2009-10-18, 09:36 PM
I assume you mean Baldur's gate, as NWN wasn't 2E?

Doesn't it also apply to Zuggtmoy from Temple of Elemental Evil without some skull smashing first?

And my confusion on the issue seems warranted (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html)

taltamir
2009-10-18, 10:15 PM
I thought outsiders do not have souls, and when killed dissolve into the infinite energies of the planes from which they formed. thus, by default, they are not resurrectable.

AslanCross
2009-10-18, 11:23 PM
I thought outsiders do not have souls, and when killed dissolve into the infinite energies of the planes from which they formed. thus, by default, they are not resurrectable.

They cannot be resurrected (there is a "Revive outsider" spell in SC, though). However, they do "respawn" on their home plane. Both FC 1 and 2 explicitly mention this.

Xenogears
2009-10-18, 11:58 PM
They cannot be resurrected (there is a "Revive outsider" spell in SC, though). However, they do "respawn" on their home plane. Both FC 1 and 2 explicitly mention this.

Or ya know just basic True Res works too. Nothing so fancy as non-core needed.