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View Full Version : Scaling "0th Levels."



Zovc
2009-10-17, 08:43 PM
I'd like to make a few 0th levels for players and DMs to be able to use for adventures "before the 1st level."

A lot of groups seem to play with the idea of having everyone starting with a level in [NPC class]. The problem I have with this is that the NPC classes aren't necessarily equal, and there is no tangible reward to this system unless you consider the NPC class a free level or reward each player with a magic item, etc.

So, currently, I'm going to base the first three 0th levels I provide on the Adept, the Expert, and the Warrior.

The premise of these 0th levels are to provide as equal as possible rewards to each archetype they are meant to be used with. For example, the Adept "level" should benefit a spellcaster as much as as the Warrior "level" should benefit a martial character.

"The Adept"
Hit Points: The adept receives an amount of hit points equal to her constitution score. She does not add her constitution modifier to these hit points.
Skills: The adept receives a +1 insight bonus to the Spellcraft and Concentration skills, she treats these as trained, class skills regardless of whether or not she has ranks in the skills or a class she gains levels in has them on their class skill list. An adept may also choose a number of skills equal to her intelligence modifier from the list below to receive a +1 insight bonus to. Skills chosen this way are considered to be trained class skills, whether or not she has any ranks in them, or they are on her class skill list.
Craft
Decipher Script
Heal
Knowledge (all skills, taken individually)
Profession
Spell-Like Ability: An adept gains a spell-like ability, chosen from the list below, that she can use once per encounter. The Adept uses half her character level, rounded up (minimum 1) for the purpose of determining caster levels. This spell is considered spontaneous and arcane. If the adept later gains levels in a class with spellcasting, she retains this ability but also adds the spell to her spell list as a level 1 spell; this spell like ability uses the adept's caster level (and type) for the class she gained for her spell like ability instead of half of her character level. Once an adept's caster level reaches 10, she may use this ability 3 times per encounter.
(This is probably a wording mess, but I think I got the point across.)

Spell-like Ability List:
Burning Hands
Magic Missile
Cure Light Wounds
Feel free to make recommendations, I don't want powerful spells like sleep, though. Spells recommended should scale with caster level.

A character who completes a session (/"half-level") with this class then gains his first class level, it gives wizards a lot more than one 1st level spell a day, but that might be too many, should it be 1/day?

This is a rough outline of what the adept would look like, I'm having a hard time deciding what sort of scaling bonus I could give to the Warrior or the Expert.

EDIT 1: Here is the Warrior.
"The Warrior"
Hit Points: The warrior receives an amount of hit points equal to his constitution score. The warrior adds 4 plus his constitution modifier to his hit points.
Skills: The warrior receives a +1 insight bonus to the Intimidate skill, he treats it as a trained, class skill regardless of whether or not he has ranks in the skill or a class he gains levels in has it on its class skill list. A warrior may also choose a number of skills equal to one plus his intelligence modifier from the list below to receive a +1 insight bonus to. Skills chosen this way are considered to be trained class skills, whether or not he has any ranks in them, or they are on his class skill list.
Climb
Craft
Handle Animal
Jump
Ride
Swim
Tumble
(I couldn't pick one of those that every warrior should have, so I did Intimidate as the only forced one, then gave them 1 + Int choices for their skill bonuses.)
Bonus Attack: Once per encounter, a warrior can make an extra attack. Any time after the warrior makes an attack, he may decide to make another attack on the same target at the same base attack bonus. Once a Warrior's base attack bonus becomes +10, he may use this ability three times in an encounter.

Other edit notes: Regendered the adept to be a lady. I gave the adept Concentration instead of Use Magic Device.

Violet Octopus
2009-10-17, 08:53 PM
I'm surprised you didn't just give magic-users cantrips only. Judging by the wizard spell table, an adept would get 3 cantrips/day at level 0.

This pretty much deprives them of offensive options, but an adept with decent dex can still hit things with a crossbow, and they still get nifty utility magic like detect magic or mage hand.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-10-17, 08:58 PM
Honestly, scaling benefits don't seem like a good idea. The adept's benefit will quickly become obsolete, as a 1st level spell isn't used much beyond, say, 5th level, while the others will still be at least moderately useful.

Perhaps something like this: keep the classes as they are, and do the following upon reaching first level.

Classes:
Adept: Add current spells known and spells per day to your next Divine casting class. Gain +1 caster level on Divine spells. No longer cast spells as an Adept.
Adept (Arcane): Adds current spells known and spells per day to your next Arcane casting class. Gain +1 caster level on Arcane spells. No longer cast spells as an Adept (Arcane)
Warrior: Deal +1 damage with all attacks. Take extra attacks at a -4 penalty instead of a -5 penalty (+20/+16/+12/+8/+4)
Expert: Gain +1 skill points/level. Maximum skill rank is equal to your level +4.

All minor abilities, but all are of value to the classes in question.

Flickerdart
2009-10-17, 09:02 PM
The Expert is actually really powerful: qualify for PrCs a level earlier, break the universe. I'd just give him a +1 competence (or even untyped) bonus to trained skills.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-10-17, 09:07 PM
The Expert is actually really powerful: qualify for PrCs a level earlier, break the universe. I'd just give him a +1 competence (or even untyped) bonus to trained skills.

True. Good point. The +1 bonus to trained skills does work better...although I'm tempted to expand it to a +1 bonus on class skills or trained skills.

Zovc
2009-10-17, 09:09 PM
Honestly, scaling benefits don't seem like a good idea. The adept's benefit will quickly become obsolete, as a 1st level spell isn't used much beyond, say, 5th level, while the others will still be at least moderately useful.

Perhaps something like this: keep the classes as they are, and do the following upon reaching first level.

If you really wanted, you could turn off the (maximum 5) on most of the 1st level spells for the spell-like ability. This would make CLW heal 20d8+20 at level 20, burning hands do 20d4 damage, and magic missile do 10d4+10.


Classes:
Adept: Add current spells known and spells per day to your next Divine casting class. Gain +1 caster level on Divine spells. No longer cast spells as an Adept.
Adept (Arcane): Adds current spells known and spells per day to your next Arcane casting class. Gain +1 caster level on Arcane spells. No longer cast spells as an Adept (Arcane)
Warrior: Deal +1 damage with all attacks. Take extra attacks at a -4 penalty instead of a -5 penalty (+20/+16/+12/+8/+4)
Expert: Gain +1 skill points/level. Maximum skill rank is equal to your level +4.

All minor abilities, but all are of value to the classes in question.

These seem good, but not particularly what I had in mind (although somewhat on track with what I tought of for the expert). Thoughts on the hit point and skill entries?

For the Expert, I'm thinking of letting them add their constitution modifier to their hit points, and letting the warrior add 4 (d6 to d10) plus their constitution modifier to their hit points.

Zovc
2009-10-17, 09:11 PM
I'm surprised you didn't just give magic-users cantrips only. Judging by the wizard spell table, an adept would get 3 cantrips/day at level 0.

The only reason I'm giving 1st level spells instead of 0th level spells is because they feel more significant, and in most cases are cooler (which, I think its important to give characters stuff that seems cool, whether or not it's powerful).

Zovc
2009-10-17, 09:42 PM
The Expert is actually really powerful: qualify for PrCs a level earlier, break the universe. I'd just give him a +1 competence (or even untyped) bonus to trained skills.

This is sort of what I was going for with the "skill system" I was using, it practically gives characters ranks in the skills, but doesn't help them get into prestige classes early--although a spell-like ability might be able to do that (and using it as a spontaneous arcane spell at that)?

Violet Octopus
2009-10-18, 04:03 AM
The only reason I'm giving 1st level spells instead of 0th level spells is because they feel more significant, and in most cases are cooler (which, I think its important to give characters stuff that seems cool, whether or not it's powerful).
Fair enough. I happen to think the cantrips are cooler than many 1st level combat spells. Create Water is very dear to me.

Zovc
2009-10-18, 12:45 PM
Fair enough. I happen to think the cantrips are cooler than many 1st level combat spells. Create Water is very dear to me.

I feel like the only reason Create Water is a 0th level spell is because it's not an attack, and has no consistent use in a combat-heavy campaign. The spell is cool, and (no doubt) very practical, it makes living in the desert a heck of a lot easier.

I'm not saying you can't find the odd function for Create Water in combat, but I'm sure it'd be rather situational.

I'd rather give a player something that will help them survive combat, since these characters literally have no resources other than their 1st level gear, their 1st level feats, and whatever ability this class (or their race) gives them. The only real advantage these classes have over 1st levels in other classes is the hit point difference.

As far as proficiencies are concerned, this is what I'm considering offering:
Adept: Simple weapons, no armor or shields.
Expert: Simple weapons, one martial weapon, light armor and light shields.
Warrior: Simple and Martial weapons, light and medium armor, light and heavy shields. Choice between an exotic weapon proficiency or heavy armor proficiency.

Adjusting the adept's skill entry:

Skills: The adept receives a +1 insight bonus to the Spellcraft and Use Magic Device skills, he treats these as trained, class skills regardless of whether or not he has ranks in the skills or a class he gains levels in has them on their class skill list.
I'm adding this:
An adept may also choose a number of skills equal to his intelligence modifier from the list below to receive a +1 insight bonus to. Skills chosen this way are considered to be trained class skills, whether or not he has any ranks in them, or they are on his class skill list.
Optional Skill List:
Concentration
Craft
Decipher Script
Knowledge
Search
(any others?)

The expert will get six skills by default, then choose any skills to add to his list based on his intelligence modifier. This will make getting prestige classes a lot easier, but not let you get in before 5, usually (it's like Able Learner).

The warrior will also get two (or should he get four) skills plus his Int modifier.

All of these levels provide a scaling benefit (ala Able Learner) to skills, would it really be tragic for the abilities to start falling behind at level 5? Those hit points will probably still matter at level 5 (Especially for a Rogue or Wizard).

Zovc
2009-10-19, 11:24 PM
(This will be added to the original post for reference)

"The Warrior"
Hit Points: The warrior receives an amount of hit points equal to his constitution score. The warrior adds 4 plus his constitution modifier to his hit points.
Skills: The warrior receives a +1 insight bonus to the Intimidate skill, he treats it as a trained, class skill regardless of whether or not he has ranks in the skill or a class he gains levels in has it on its class skill list. A warrior may also choose a number of skills equal to one plus his intelligence modifier from the list below to receive a +1 insight bonus to. Skills chosen this way are considered to be trained class skills, whether or not he has any ranks in them, or they are on his class skill list.
Climb
Craft
Handle Animal
Jump
Ride
Swim
Tumble
(I couldn't pick one of those that every warrior should have, so I did Intimidate as the only forced one, then gave them 1 + Int choices for their skill bonuses.)
Bonus Attack: Once per encounter, a warrior can make an extra attack. Any time after the warrior makes an attack, he may decide to make another attack on the same target at the same base attack bonus. Once a Warrior's base attack bonus becomes +10, he may use this ability three times in an encounter.

I've decided that players will already have their first level feats for adventures at the 0th level, gaining class features, a hit die, and skill points seems like a good enough bonus without gaining a feat (or two for humans/strongheart halflings/azurans).