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Myrmex
2009-10-20, 05:51 PM
Continuing discussion from here:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128823


You act like Mr. Wizard is alone and running in like some chump. You ready an action to pyrotechnics after having another party member throw their torch to where you want the smoke to go off. They're effectively blind in the smoke and possibly suffering Str and Dex penalties from smoke inhalation, which lasts while in the cloud (which lasts for 1 round/CL) and then 1d4+1 rounds after that as they get fresh air back into their lungs.

If they just want the fireworks, it's the same procedure, except you don't have to throw the torch, since the flash hits 120' around the source, unless you're trying to get somebody just out of range of that, in which case you throw the damn torch anyways.


A torch can be thrown up to 50 feet. With this tactic, you're blinding the whole party, aren't you?


Parties can be warned beforehand, and, say, have a readied action to close their eyes and look away from the flash. The monsters won't know you're going to do it, unless your DM is a jerk and has all enemies constantly walk around with free-readied actions to close their eyes if someone throws a torch at them. Not foolproof, but if you're using it as a pre-planned tactic, it doesn't endanger your party at all.


It's much better to use it with e.g. Bullseye Lantern anyways.

EDIT: Let's stop derailing this thread, k?


Parties can be warned beforehand, and, say, have a readied action to close their eyes and look away from the flash. The monsters won't know you're going to do it, unless your DM is a jerk and has all enemies constantly walk around with free-readied actions to close their eyes if someone throws a torch at them. Not foolproof, but if you're using it as a pre-planned tactic, it doesn't endanger your party at all.

So the party gets a +2 circumstance bonus on the will save to avoid the flash. Still not very awesome, considering the save on that flash is likely to be near 20.


2 rounds minimum. 5 rounds maximum. Knowing that the average combat lasts 3-5 rounds, those 2 rounds are a massive advantage. And the Smoke effect has no save or SR. The save is against the Str/Dex penalty, not the blindness (the biggest debuff).


You assume a lot more than I do (that an ally throws a torch into the middle of a group of enemies). How many enemies are truly immune to Blindness? Only a handful, which is why spells like Glitterdust and Pyrotechnics are so powerful. Even True Dragons are not outright immune to the effect. At the lowest levels, such as 3rd when the spell becomes first available, how many things are immune?



You never use the Flash version. It offers a save, the Smoke doesn't. The smoke is also shapeable through Metamagic or a class feature (Recaster, Archmage). The Familiar you so conveniently have on hand can also just fly the torch over the enemy at double speed, giving you quite a range. Assuming it flies, of course.


Why?
That's going to blow up in your face, too.



The smoke also offers a save.


Only Vs the Str/Dex penalty


But that's all there is....

Smoke Cloud

A writhing stream of smoke billows out from the source, forming a choking cloud. The cloud spreads 20 feet in all directions and lasts for 1 round per caster level. All sight, even darkvision, is ineffective in or through the cloud. All within the cloud take -4 penalties to Strength and Dexterity (Fortitude negates). These effects last for 1d4+1 rounds after the cloud dissipates or after the creature leaves the area of the cloud. Spell resistance does not apply.

The "blinding" effect isn't terribly useful, unless you want to buy your team a round or two of buff time.


Umm...



How is that not an opportunity to murder the enemy? 50% miss chance means everyone has an AC eqaul to the opponent's attack bonus +10.5. If they do fail their save against the smoke's effect, that an additional -4 Str/Dex penalty that stacks. So -8 Str is massive (it also satcks with Ray of Enfeeblement).

As for getting your allies into the smoke without screwing them over, there's a number of effects that work (or just use Gust of Wind to disperse the smoke and leave them blinded for 1d4+1 rounds, no save). 2 rounds of auto-blindness is more than enough to screw the enemy!


It seems that you guys think that you're blind after you leave the smoke cloud, but the smoke has no blinding effect- it just prevents vision while you're in it.

Look:

A writhing stream of smoke billows out from the source, forming a choking cloud. The cloud spreads 20 feet in all directions and lasts for 1 round per caster level. All sight, even darkvision, is ineffective in or through the cloud. All within the cloud take -4 penalties to Strength and Dexterity (Fortitude negates). These effects last for 1d4+1 rounds after the cloud dissipates or after the creature leaves the area of the cloud. Spell resistance does not apply.

The only effects that get applied to creatures in the cloud are a -4 str & dex penalty, if they fail a save. There's no blinding effect, just a description that for 1d4+1 rounds, there is a cloud of smoke you cannot see through.

ericgrau
2009-10-20, 06:03 PM
Ally holds torch. Just holds it. And closes his eyes. Use the blinding effect not the smoke. 120 feet is a long distance. ; no need to chuck the torch. And you're gonna hit yourself anyway. The smoke cloud OTOH is a bit harder to pull off. It's like glitterdust, and at the same level, but it affects many more targets.

Myrmex
2009-10-20, 06:10 PM
Ally holds torch. Just holds it. And closes his eyes. Use the blinding effect not the smoke. 120 feet is a long distance. ; no need to chuck the torch. And you're gonna hit yourself anyway.

"Closes eyes"? Really? So then things without eyes would be immune- golems, undead, etc, to Glitterdust.

You can't close your eyes and be unaffected by a Transmutation spell unless the spell says otherwise.

This is like trying to light a Grease spell on fire- just can't do it.

Furthermore, you couldn't target the fire with the spell anyway, since you don't have LoS to your target with your eyes closed. This is also why the hooded lantern trick doesn't work. If you can't see the fire to be blinded by it, you also can't see the fire to cast a spell on it.

Regardless, if closing your eyes makes you immune to blinding effects, then these spells are practically worthless. "Look, it's a man in a pointy hat! Quick, look away!"


The smoke cloud OTOH is a bit harder to pull off. It's like glitterdust, and at the same level, but it affects many more targets.

It's more like a fog cloud that inflicts a penalty. There is no blinding affect from the cloud, it just obscures vision.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-20, 06:13 PM
\ These effects

The only effects that get applied to creatures in the cloud are a -4 str & dex penalty, if they fail a save. There's no blinding effect, just a description that for 1d4+1 rounds, there is a cloud of smoke you cannot see through.

The only affect isn't the penalty. Or it would say "the effect".
These = blind + penalty.

ericgrau
2009-10-20, 06:14 PM
Fireworks
The fireworks are a flashing, fiery, momentary burst of glowing, colored aerial lights. This effect causes creatures within 120 feet of the fire source to become blinded for 1d4+1 rounds (Will negates). These creatures must have line of sight to the fire to be affected. Spell resistance can prevent blindness.

I mean pyrotechnics, specifically the fireworks, are like glitterdust. And there's your explicit ability to close your eyes right there, for those who don't believe "blinding flash of light makes you blind" is enough to show it. As for other creatures, if they still see they can still be affected.

You only need line of effect to cast a spell, not line of sight.

And looking away from wizards has the minor drawback of not being able to see him even when he doesn't cast any spells at all.

Myrmex
2009-10-20, 06:19 PM
I mean pyrotechnics, specifically the fireworks, are like glitterdust. And there's your explicit ability to close your eyes right there, for those who don't believe "blinding flash of light makes you blind" is enough to show it. As for other creatures, if they still see they can still be affected.

You only need line of effect to cast a spell, not line of sight.

And looking away from wizards has the minor drawback of not being able to see him even when he doesn't cast any spells at all.

In that case, it's an ok spell. Not as great as Glitterdust, and quite situational. When all your opponents can free action close their eyes and ignore the effect, it's not that great.


The only affect isn't the penalty. Or it would say "the effect".
These = blind + penalty.

There are two penalties, which are referred to in the plural.

ericgrau
2009-10-20, 06:25 PM
Your opponents don't know to close their eyes until after they see the blinding flash. Your allies do. And closing your eyes all the time has obvious drawbacks. Glitterdust is 10 foot radius. Pyrotechnics is 120 feet; i.e. the entirety of most encounters that fit on your gaming table. If you can pull it off then pyrotechnics is far better at the same spell level. The only thing is that it's a pain to organize with your gaming group.

Myrmex
2009-10-20, 06:33 PM
Your opponents don't know to close their eyes until after they see the blinding flash. Your allies do. And closing your eyes all the time has obvious drawbacks. Glitterdust is 10 foot radius. Pyrotechnics is 120 feet; i.e. the entirety of most encounters that fit on your gaming table. If you can pull it off then pyrotechnics is far better at the same spell level. The only thing is that it's a pain to organize with your gaming group.

15 + spell level Identify a spell being cast. (You must see or hear the spell’s verbal or somatic components.) No action required. No retry. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm)

Speak

In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn. Speaking more than few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsincombat.htm#speak)

ericgrau
2009-10-20, 06:36 PM
Arrange tactic ahead of time. Use code word. Shrug at unaffected casters who have a high will save and aren't all that common among monsters anyway.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-10-20, 06:37 PM
Arrange tactic ahead of time. Use code word. Shrug at unaffected casters who have a high will save anyway.

How will that prevent people from hearing and seeing you?

ericgrau
2009-10-20, 06:40 PM
Wizard: "Shennanigans!!"
Monsters: "?!?!?"
PCs: <close their eyes upon hearing that pre-arranged word>
Wizard: <casts pyrotechnics>
All monsters make a will save or go blind. Except maybe the ocassional kobold sorcerer or w/e. Though at early levels he may fail that spellcraft.

Alternatively the wizard simply stands behind his party with torch in hand while they are focused on their enemies.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-20, 06:41 PM
It is sort of a pain, unless you all delay to similar initiatives. Otherwise (since you can only close eyes on your round) the enemies get bonuses to attack you.

@Fist: That's why it's a code word. And if you delay to similar initiatives, the enemies don't have a turn to free-action close eyes whether they hear you or not.

Eldariel
2009-10-20, 06:43 PM
How will that prevent people from hearing and seeing you?

It will allow allies to close their eyes, while opponents won't unless they know your codeword (which should be exceedingly rare occurrence with only particularly observant opponents you've fought multiple times).

I still find Bullseye Lantern to be the easiest way to use it. By definition, the fire inside is only visible to one direction and it's directable, making for a nice ~cone of 120'.

ericgrau
2009-10-20, 06:45 PM
I'm not serious here, but take speak language: blinking morse code to close your eyes when it's not you're turn :smallbiggrin:. Or arguably you could close your eyes when it's not your turn anyway. Or the wizard holds while everyone else attacks and closes their eyes. Half of them might get attacked once while their eyes are closed. Oh well. Or stand behind party as mentioned. The bullseye lantern needs a hole in the back to cast the spell through. But at least then only the wizard needs to close his eyes, as long as he holds the lantern close to his body. Or etc., etc. Like I said, it's a PITA to arrange it and most groups probably won't bother. But it's great if you do.

Godskook
2009-10-20, 06:46 PM
This is like trying to light a Grease spell on fire- just can't do it.

Uh, room temperature grease isn't all that flammable.

Magnor Criol
2009-10-20, 06:47 PM
15 + spell level Identify a spell being cast. (You must see or hear the spell’s verbal or somatic components.) No action required. No retry. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm)

Speak

In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn. Speaking more than few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsincombat.htm#speak)

The key there, I think, is the "in general" lead-in. I think that I, as a DM, would probably rule that unless you readied an action to watch the spell and alert your teammates to what it was, that you wouldn't really have time to watch the caster, recognize the spell, and yell it out to your teammates in time for them to be able to react to it.

(This is based on my understanding that you were trying to say "you can recognize a spell and tell your teammates about it." If that's not what you meant, DISREGARD THIS =p )

Myrmex
2009-10-20, 07:46 PM
Uh, room temperature grease isn't all that flammable.

Neither is room temperature gasoline. Sorry, what's the relevance of this?


It will allow allies to close their eyes, while opponents won't unless they know your codeword (which should be exceedingly rare occurrence with only particularly observant opponents you've fought multiple times).

I still find Bullseye Lantern to be the easiest way to use it. By definition, the fire inside is only visible to one direction and it's directable, making for a nice ~cone of 120'.

If it can't LoS blind you, then you can't LoS or LoE target it.


The key there, I think, is the "in general" lead-in. I think that I, as a DM, would probably rule that unless you readied an action to watch the spell and alert your teammates to what it was, that you wouldn't really have time to watch the caster, recognize the spell, and yell it out to your teammates in time for them to be able to react to it.

(This is based on my understanding that you were trying to say "you can recognize a spell and tell your teammates about it." If that's not what you meant, DISREGARD THIS =p )

Recognizing a spell and informing your allies of said spell are, respectively, a non action & a free action. There is plenty of time. By RAW, anyway.

Lycanthromancer
2009-10-20, 08:23 PM
You can target another creature if you're blind...IF you're close enough to touch it. So just drill a tiny hole in the back of the lantern, then cast with your eyes closed.

Eldariel
2009-10-20, 08:30 PM
If it can't LoS blind you, then you can't LoS or LoE target it.

Don't you always have LoE to anything in your own square anyways? I mean, isn't LoE measured from your square? Can't you just put your hand around the hood or whatever? You obviously don't have LoS to the fire as it's a cone from your square, but at the same time I don't see what would stop you from having LoE to it given there's no solid barrier between you and it from all positions in your square.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-21, 09:01 AM
It seems that you guys think that you're blind after you leave the smoke cloud, but the smoke has no blinding effect- it just prevents vision while you're in it.

Look:


A writhing stream of smoke billows out from the source, forming a choking cloud. The cloud spreads 20 feet in all directions and lasts for 1 round per caster level. All sight, even darkvision, is ineffective in or through the cloud. All within the cloud take -4 penalties to Strength and Dexterity (Fortitude negates). These effects last for 1d4+1 rounds after the cloud dissipates or after the creature leaves the area of the cloud. Spell resistance does not apply.

The only effects that get applied to creatures in the cloud are a -4 str & dex penalty, if they fail a save. There's no blinding effect, just a description that for 1d4+1 rounds, there is a cloud of smoke you cannot see through.

The Str/Dex penalty is one effect, the blindness is the second. Both effects last for 1d4+1 rounds after the cloud dissipates or the victims leave the cloud.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-21, 09:57 AM
I said that, but they think Str/Dex is one effect each even though it effects two things.

Saph
2009-10-21, 09:59 AM
The Str/Dex penalty is one effect, the blindness is the second. Both effects last for 1d4+1 rounds after the cloud dissipates or the victims leave the cloud.

Mmmm . . . don't think so. "All sight, even darkvision, is ineffective in or through the cloud." Okay, that effect lasts until 1d4+1 rounds after I leave the cloud. So I'm unable to see in or through the cloud . . . which I couldn't do anyway. Now, if it had said "All creatures within the cloud are blinded" you'd have a case.

Besides, RAI it seems fairly clear that simply being in the cloud isn't enough to suddenly strike you blind. If they'd meant it to do that they would have described it somewhere.

Boci
2009-10-21, 10:07 AM
Recognizing a spell and informing your allies of said spell are, respectively, a non action & a free action. There is plenty of time. By RAW, anyway.

No there isn't. By raw you can only perform free action on your turn. You can recognize the spell, but not warn your allies (or close your own eyes since that is a free action as well)

The Random NPC
2009-10-21, 10:30 AM
Some support for the blinding lasting longer. When smoke gets in your eyes, they tend to tear up, making it harder to see. With the kind of smoke that can impose a Str/Dex penalty, I could see blindness lasting for 30 seconds or so.

ericgrau
2009-10-21, 10:36 AM
You don't need LOS to get LOE. Just reach around into the lantern if that makes you feel better. Or fire the spell and immediately close your eyes. Or w/e.

And, yeah, gasoline is quite flammable whereas cool grease is difficult to catch on fire. If you press a lit match into a wad of grease you'll probably just snuff it out. Gasoline... not so much. It has to do with volatility; ignition requires a proper fuel vapor / air mix. /tangent

Akal Saris
2009-10-21, 10:38 AM
Sinfire and I had the exact same discussion a few weeks ago on BG - I continue to disagree that blindness is an effect that will linger on after the character leaves the cloud, or the spell would have specifically called that out in the description instead of having the normal text of "you can't see inside a cloud because its cloudy blah blah."

I like the bullseye lantern idea, though. Not sure if it would work in most games though, given that you'll have fireworks spraying out of your tiny lantern.

For the smoke effect, I like the idea of summoning a fire elemental, commanding him to go where you want (and probably hit the opponent for a little damage), and then casting it. Saves your allies an action and is a pretty cool image in my mind.

ericgrau
2009-10-21, 11:00 AM
Smoke Cloud
A writhing stream of smoke billows out from the source, forming a choking cloud. The cloud spreads 20 feet in all directions and lasts for 1 round per caster level. All sight, even darkvision, is ineffective in or through the cloud. All within the cloud take -4 penalties to Strength and Dexterity (Fortitude negates). These effects last for 1d4+1 rounds after the cloud dissipates or after the creature leaves the area of the cloud. Spell resistance does not apply.

Sure, if you want to rule that you can't see in or through the cloud 1d4+1 rounds after leaving it, I'm fine with that. Though I think that effect should last as long as the cloud lasts :smallbiggrin:.

Considering that fog cloud is the same level, it's not too bad of an effect. Though fog cloud lasts longer. The problem is spending another action to chuck a fire at an enemy, or plan on fighting enemies without darkvision (humans, I guess). Or have the fighter with a good fort save and blindfighting carry the torch. Once you add it all up it's -2 damage, 25% concealment for your enemy vs. +4 AB and a 50% concealment for the fighter.

Gametime
2009-10-21, 11:29 PM
The Str/Dex penalty is one effect, the blindness is the second. Both effects last for 1d4+1 rounds after the cloud dissipates or the victims leave the cloud.

Since the wording refers to penalties to Strength and Dexterity, the spell seems to disagree that it is ONE effect.

Further, "sight being ineffective in or through the cloud" is the other effect. Even if that remains after the cloud dissipates, it doesn't do anything because there is no more cloud for it to relate to. If there was an effect that said "All fighters wearing purple shorts must hop on one leg," but there aren't any fighters wearing purple shorts, no one is going to start hopping on one leg. Similarly, if there is no cloud, then sight being ineffective in that non-existent cloud isn't going to blind anyone.