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View Full Version : The Orcs of Waaaagh! [PEACH]



imp_fireball
2009-10-28, 06:43 AM
The Orcs are the most common of the Greenskin sub-species. They stand slightly taller than a man, but are wider and heavier. A typical orc can use his bare hands, which are the size of a manís head, to tear a man limb from limb. Orcs are proficient fighters, faster than you would expect and incredibly vicious. An average warrior can not stand against them one on one. This physical power is backed by a primal, instinctive cunning, which naturally gives orcs a good grasp of combat skills and tactics. In general, orcs live to fight. When not campaigning against other races they fight other tribes in minor turf wars, have civil wars within their tribes, or engage in sports. These sports usually take the form of physical competitions, such as runt throwing, boar and chariot racing, or drinking matches.

- Orcs are of the greenskin subspecies and the humanoid type. Greenskins all worship Mork and Gork, favor conflict through brutality and cunning, and of course, have green skin. It is entirely unknown whether or not female orcs exist.

* Medium size
* 30-foot base speed
* Orc Blood for purposes of spell effects and magic item activation etc.
* low-light vision
* DR 5/lethal
* -2 Initiative
* +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma
* All range increments are halved for missile and thrown weapons; orcs are not accustomed to fighting from a distance, and prefer to get in close.
* Orcs can purchase Powerful Build as if it were a feat with a minimum character level requirement of 3rd level.
* Can Rage 1/day. If the Orc has levels in the barbarian class, rage from those levels does not stack with the rage granted by this ability.
* Favored class: Fighter
* LA: +1

Variant orc races. All the above applies except where specifically changed below.

Black Orcs:
* +4 Strength, +4 Constitution, -2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence (replaces all ability score modifiers above).
* Bonus feat at 1st level; must be chosen from the list of fighter bonus feats.
* LA +2

Savage Orcs:
* Dislikes armour: Savage orcs suffer a -4 morale penalty on attack rolls if wearing heavy armour, while medium armor behooves them with a -2 morale penalty to attack rolls. They may wear light armour normally, although most prefer to go with little more than a loincloth. These penalties also apply to skills that involve armor check penalties.
* Savage orcs can rage 1/day as if they were 1st level barbarians; if they have levels in the barbarian class, they get one additional use of the rage ability per day.
* Favored class: Barbarian
* LA +1
---------

Orc Choppa

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+0|Lesser Growth, Bonus Feat, +1 Martial Initiator Level

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+0| +1 Martial Initiator Level

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+1| Bonus Feat

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+1|Moderate Growth, +1 Martial Initiator Level

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+1| Bonus Feat

6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+2|You are what you boast, +1 Martial Initiator Level

7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+2|Greater Growth, Bonus Feat

8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+2|+1 Martial Initiator Level

9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+3|Bonus Feat

10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+3|
+3|Ultimate Growth, Beastly Boasting[/table]

Prerequisite: Of the Warhammer Orc race (Orc, Savage Orc, or Black Orc), Powerful Build, BAB +4

Proficiencies: An Orc Choppa is proficient with all simple weapons, including the Choppa (exotic).

Growth (Ex)

At first level, and every three levels thereafter, up until 10th level, the Orc Choppa gains a +2 bonus to Strength and Constitution.

You are What you Boast (Ex)

At 6th level, the Orc Choppa may optionally increase his size by one category. If he chooses not to, he may receive a +4 bonus to attack and damage against creatures at least one size category larger than himself, but only while raging.

Bonus Feat

The Orc Choppa may select from the list of general or fighter bonus feats as his bonus feat.

Beastly Boasting (Ex)

At 10th level, the Orc Choppa can intimidate as an immediate action that causes those that rage to immediately end their rage if they fail their saving throw to resist intimidation. Additionally, the Orc Choppa is now immune to fear, as long as he eats well.
-----

Choppa
Damage: 2d8 Slashing and Bludgeoning, 20/x4
Type: Exotic (One Handed), Martial (Two Handed)

The Choppa is Exotic if wielded in one hand and Martial if wielded in two. Even if wielded in two hands, a character that is only martially proficient with the choppa treats the weapon as size large, unless they possess at least 17 Strength, and even then they take a -2 penalty to attacks - this cannot be countermanded, as the sheer weight of the choppa is what gives it its strength on the battlefield. A character whom dual wields a choppa must have monkey grip, powerful build, or something similar, whether or not they are exotically proficient in its use.


I don't think I need to reiterate other fluff, so... ?

ZeetaXalavalio
2009-10-28, 08:21 AM
Not sure if you are taking the piss or just genuinely looking for feedback so Ill assume the later.

Just to get it straight this is probably one of the worst balanced homebrew material Ive ever seen, right up there with Lightning Warrior (try googling it if you don't know it). To make it easier Ill just line up the perks as they are at level 20.

+4 on will saves vs fear
Nothing really broken about this, Id probably just change it to vs fear since 99% of all fear saves are will.

Powerful build + Monkey grip
First of; you DO realize that these two, as written do not stack seeing as they both allow you to wield a weapon one size larger then yourself without actually increasing your size?
Secondly; If you allow these to stack, your little orc will at 20 will wield colossal sized weapons?
Oh and for the record Goliaths (Races of Stone) have powerful build, +4 Str, +2 Con and some misc stuff and they weigh in at LA +1

Just drop the feat

+16 Str, +12 Con
Yep, +10 from BAB because as written you would have BAB +21 at 20 with a full BAB class. Am I the only one thinking this is completely out of wack? I hope not.

Id drop it to +4 Str +2 Con for start and perhaps +2 Str at 10, +2 Con at 15 and +2 Str again at 20

-2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha
Of these only the Wis penalty really hurts a fighter type (because thats what EVERYONE taking this race will play) because of the will save penalty.

Probably make either Int or Cha -4, maybe even both.

Jump, Listen, Spot as class skills
Jump, Listen and Spot? Really? Id love to hear an explanation of this one.

As it stands Id just drop it.

Start with +1 BAB
I can see why you want this, so maybe change the wording to starting with at least BAB +1 on their first level.

50% Fortification
As far as Im aware they still bleed and die from being stabbed in the heart?
Plus critical resistance is pretty powerful (definitely too much for low LA races) so Id drop it.

DR 5/-
Reminds me of the Black Knight in Monty Python "Its just a flesh wound!"
Seriously this is way too much for low level.

Just change it to DR 5/- vs nonlethal damage and maybe +2 on saves vs pain effects.

HUGE size
No, just no, this is so hilariously overpowered that I cant really comment on it, there are almost no ways to increase size outside of magic (where IMOO its too easy as it stands) and you are giving out 2 of em in a LA 1 race?

Guess you could change it to large at 20/possibly 15 with the added note that size increases to stats go up +4 Str, -2 Dex and +2 Con (which gives you the total stats as a human increased to large).

Size increase bonuses of +16 Str, +8 Con, -4 Dex, -2 Attack/AC
Didnt know of these I take it (and hope)? Yep as per the improving monster section of MM (towards the back) changing size nets you some pretty hefty ability bonuses. Which is why increasing size is very powerful, especially if done twice

15ft. Base reach
So silly it deserves its own heading. Huze size=15 ft. reach, so again just drop it. 10ft at higher levels I can live with but 15ft. for LA 1? no chance in hell.

LA +1
Bit of a joke really. If you make the changes above it MIGHT be LA +2/+3.
As it is Id guess its around LA +6 - +9, definitely not +1!

There, quite a bit longer then I planned, still hope it helps.

Oslecamo
2009-10-28, 08:28 AM
What the above poster said. Fortification and the extra skills in particular make no sense whatsoever.

imp_fireball
2009-10-28, 05:51 PM
The extra skills come from being warriors and being instinctually inclined to training in times of leisure instead of lazying around like some humans do. Sure, they already have +1 BAB but their cunning teaches every orc things like how to listen and spot, and jump is a general skill that arrives from physical contests.

These things assume a tribal culture for the orc in question.

Also, fixed a bit. Remember that this is a martial centric race (and ultimately inferior at later levels). It doesn't have a lot of the spell wankery of other high LA types. Don't forget that goliaths get climb bonuses and other things too.

Fan
2009-10-28, 06:04 PM
I'm beginning to suspect another lightening warrior here.:smalltongue:

Halna LeGavilk
2009-10-28, 06:18 PM
Medium Size
Doesn't fit the fluff. Change it to Large (at least).

+4 vs. Fear
Cool. I dislike these kinda saves, personally, but, whatever.

Powerful Build
Take it out, just make them large.

Attribute Changes
Not a very good idea at all. Don't the improvements to the attributes improve, just give it to them, or don't have the improving stats.

Everything's cool down until
5/lethal
...I don't understand. Doesn't this mean that if there is a lethal damage, it is blocked.

Size changes
No. Or just make them a monster race. Besides, it only goes to +20 BAB.

imp_fireball
2009-10-28, 06:38 PM
5/lethal
...I don't understand. Doesn't this mean that if there is a lethal damage, it is blocked.

It means lethal damage bypasses.


Medium Size
Doesn't fit the fluff. Change it to Large (at least).

An orc is 'slightly taller than a human'. It does.



Powerful Build
Take it out, just make them large.

I would but... no.


Size changes
No. Or just make them a monster race. Besides, it only goes to +20 BAB.

You seriously want to assume nobody wishes to play as an orc?


Don't the improvements to the attributes improve, just give it to them, or don't have the improving stats.

If I 'just give it to them' then they will be unbalanced at low levels and crap at higher levels. That would then justify a higher LA and probably some monster HD, which is not my intention.

Also pure martial races don't have high LA, ever. A straight bashy size collossal +80 STR behemoth would do with +6 LA at the most and their main penalization is their drastic ECL from monster HD.

Oslecamo
2009-10-28, 06:45 PM
The extra skills come from being warriors and being instinctually inclined to training in times of leisure instead of lazying around like some humans do. Sure, they already have +1 BAB but their cunning teaches every orc things like how to listen and spot, and jump is a general skill that arrives from physical contests.

These things assume a tribal culture for the orc in question.

Wich again doesn't fit the greenskins culture in any way.

Orks don't train in times of leisure. Stormboyz maybe. All the others fool around, eating, drinking, telling stories and testing out new ways of unleashing violence.

If anything, they should take listen penalties, because many orks are known to destroy their own eardrums by trying to make their weapons and vehicles as noisy as possible.

Inhuman Bot
2009-10-28, 07:19 PM
It means lethal damage bypasses.

IMHO, a pretty way to phrase it would be "Resist Nonlethal damage 5."

Vadin
2009-10-28, 08:48 PM
All that being said (so yes, I'm critiquing the current incarnation and not the laugh that was the first version)...

Why have something that only blocks non-lethal damage anyways? 9 times out of 10 (if not even more commonly), damage is lethal. Non-lethal damage isn't that common at all.

Getting to Large size at level 9 is not that bad. Heck, I could even see a case for it being balanced if the race was at least +2 LA. But in a +1 LA race, that seems somewhat out of place. There's probably a case for it being just fine, but it doesn't sit right with me. Also, increasing size at +30 BAB is pretty dang unnecessary. They're in Epic levels. And +60? It's not like this part is horribly broken, it's just the sort of thing that will never see play. It's like giving a class a particular feature that gives them +6 to spot and listen when they're in a church with one stained-glass window and the only other people in the church are elves who know arcane magic and have blue eyes. The ability itself is fine, but it's so pointless because players will never see it actually happen. It's not even going to be a blip on their radar and it doesn't need to be included.

Beginning with +1 BAB is an awful idea. It defeats part of the purpose of level adjustment (which I'm against as a general concept, but that's a whole different kettle of fish). What are the drawbacks to level adjustment? You miss out on a level (or more, if the LA is high enough) of HP, BAB, and class features compared to the rest of your party. What you've done (when with the absurd stat bonuses, which I'll get to later) is completely negate the entire purpose of the hilariously low +1 LA you have, I can only assume jokingly, assigned them.

10% Fortification isn't really a huge issue. I mean, it's not overpowered or anything, and it could definitely be part of a +1 LA race.

-4 to wisdom and -2 to the other two mental stats is not much at all, especially when you couple it with your absolutely insane bonuses to strength and constitution. +2 constitution isn't that bad, but +6 strength is...well, it certainly isn't good. And then they get +2 strength and constitution for every +2 BAB they get? What's up with that? That's an incredibly good ability worth quite an extra LA or three by itself.


Are you actually looking to make WH and WH40K Orks in 3.5 terms as a balanced +1 LA race, or are we all misiniterpreting something?

Ashtagon
2009-10-29, 02:43 AM
ok, I'm going to assume you are referring to orcs as fluffed by a certain UK games publisher.


- Orcs are of the greenskin subspecies and the humanoid type. Greenskins all worship Mork and Gork, favor conflict through brutality and cunning, and of course, have green skin.

- Size Medium


This is good. Canonically, they are 6-7 feet tall, but hunched down, with a tendency to reach as much as 8 feet tall after years of growth and pounding on other orcs.



- Orcs have a +4 to resist fear.


Nothing in the source rule material suggests this. But given other fluff (too dumb to be scared, specifically), and their Wisdom penalty, I'm cool with it.



- Orcs have 'powerful build'


Based on the background fluff, it would make perfect sense if this only comes in after gaining a few levels (at level 6 maybe). they literally grow bigger by beating up other orcs in the fluff.



- Orcs have -2 INT, -4 WIS, -2 CHA, +6 STR, and +2 CON; CON and STR increase by +2 upon achieving +3 BAB and for every +2 BAB beyond that

- Orcs begin with +1 BAB


Based on their stats in that other game, they are stronger, hardier, but clumsier and dumber. But not so strong as to justify +6 Strength. I'd also drop the +1 bab bonus. That's a natural consequence of having a higher Strength, messes with iterative attack progressions, and is at odds with how it works for all other races.

Oh, and that bonus on Str and Con based on bab is just plain unbalanced.

I'd go for +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence, -4 Wisdom, -2 Charisma.



- Orcs have a 10% chance to avoid a critical hit that may have been landed against them due to their strange anatomies.


Their anatomies are strange, but not that strange.



- Orcs have DR 5/lethal due to their ability to resist pain.


In practice, this essentially means you can't knock them out. I'm ok with that, although I can't see many situations in which someone would choose to fight these guys with non-lethal weapons.



- Once an orc has surpassed +10 BAB, their size may optionally increase by one step, which then increases by one step after +30 BAB, thereafter +60 BAB, and so on.


You do realise that under RAW, no creature can actually have a bab higher than +20? I'm not sure what you were aiming at here.

In any case, based on the fluff, they should never *ever* get a size increase. They grow, but not that much.

Note that the powerful build feature was written with "races halfway between Medium and Large" in mind. In other words, about 9 feet tall on average, with musculature to match. Even for orcs, it's pushing things a little to give them that.

imp_fireball
2009-10-29, 02:58 AM
They grow, but not that much.

No orc has ever reached level 30 in other words. Because level 30 is ascending immortality and no orc has ever breached that barrier.


In any case, based on the fluff, they should never *ever* get a size increase.

Based on the fluff, they grow, which you said yourself.


Based on the background fluff, it would make perfect sense if this only comes in after gaining a few levels (at level 6 maybe). they literally grow bigger by beating up other orcs in the fluff.


Orcs already have hands that can engulf a human head. Do you realize how insane that is? If that's not powerful build, what is? Also, they wield weapons that normally require two hands and are quite heavy, according to fluff (choppas).


But not so strong as to justify +6 Strength.

They can tear a human limb from limb. They wield big-ass weapons. D&D orcs, whom essentially all have weight lifter bodies, can't do this stuff. Also, they are said to be quite mobile despite their stockiness so I interpreted that as no DEX penalty. And there increased STR and CON at higher BAB ability doesn't compete with ogres at 2 HD (which is comparably first level for ogres in an adventure).
------

In short, warhammer says orcs are big and dangerous and I wanted D&D to reflect that they are very dangerous.

Some of the abilities are there for fluff. Just because they are useless in most run of the mill scenarios doesn't mean they should be removed (this isn't shake and bake efficiency 101).

If you want to argue level adjustment, link some martial centric races with +1 and +2 LAs.

Krazddndfreek
2009-10-29, 03:18 AM
Everyone else pretty much has the points covered, but I'm just going to reiterate on the ability scores. Scaling ability scores is just plain silly. Scaling up strength or any ability scores with BAB progression is nuts. You could play with the point-buy ability score method and spend no points in strength and still start off with 14, by the time you hit level 20 you're going to have another plus 12 putting you up at 26. Do you see the problem here? After that you can use all of your magical strength boosts and things like that and you'll have 32 strength probably. That is without spending ANYTHING on strength. That is monster race territory right there. Add on those other points, and you have a full-fledged monster, just slip in some ability scores, a stronger damage and a slightly better armor class and you're set for about a CR 18 encounter. Just +6 strength is monster territory. LA +1 is out of the question just from the strength issue. You should probably just use the regular Orc from the monster's manual sans the weakness to light. I never understood why that was there, it made the orcs so weak.

EDIT: If you want them that dangerous, they definitely need at least LA +5 and a couple of HD. At least.

Ashtagon
2009-10-29, 03:35 AM
No orc has ever reached level 30 in other words. Because level 30 is ascending immortality and no orc has ever breached that barrier.

Based on the fluff, they grow, which you said yourself.

WFRP 1e rulebook says the largest orc ever would have been 8 feet tall if he ever stood up straight (most being 6-7 feet tall if they do that). I guess it's possible that later editions of the game have increased that limit, but I have yet to see any orc miniatures from GW that would qualify as D&D's Large size. They'd require a bigger base, for one thing.


Orcs already have hands that can engulf a human head. Do you realize how insane that is? If that's not powerful build, what is? Also, they wield weapons that normally require two hands and are quite heavy, according to fluff (choppas).

They can tear a human limb from limb. They wield big-ass weapons. D&D orcs, whom essentially all have weight lifter bodies, can't do this stuff. ...

Regular D&D humans also wield weapons that technically require two hands. So what? They take their attack penalty and strike their blows, same as any other race. The orcs aren't necessarily doing it because they have the strength to wield it effectively. They could just as easily be doing it because "big wunz 'urt more". This is an extremely strong meme in GW orc society.

As for weight-lifter bodies, D&D humans have this too. Literally. the average human male in RAW D&D is 180 lb. The average human male in modern USA is 168 lb. That's some significant body-building going on, especially when you consider that a major fraction of the USA is clinically obese which will skew the RL figures upward.

Incidentally, the average human male in WFRP 2e is 153.5 lb, which makes them quite wimpy by D&D standards, and thus makes WH orcs look comparatively much tougher. WH humans aren't D&D humans.


Also, they are said to be quite mobile despite their stockiness so I interpreted that as no DEX penalty. And there increased STR and CON at higher BAB ability doesn't compete with ogres at 2 HD (which is comparably first level for ogres in an adventure).

Initiative is the GW stat that most closely corresponds to Dexterity. Orcs have 2, humans have 3, in most iterations of WFB.

WFRP 1e also had a Dexterity stat. Orcs had 29 for this; humans had 43.

WFRP 2e only had Agility as a Dexterity-equivalent. Orcs have 25; humans have 31 on average at character creation.

Based on GW rule interpretations, there is every reason to give orcs a Dexterity penalty.

Anonymouswizard
2009-10-29, 05:09 AM
WFRP 1e rulebook says the largest orc ever would have been 8 feet tall if he ever stood up straight (most being 6-7 feet tall if they do that). I guess it's possible that later editions of the game have increased that limit, but I have yet to see any orc miniatures from GW that would qualify as D&D's Large size. They'd require a bigger base, for one thing.
Sooo... If we look at WH 40k, all the orks are on avarage as large as WH orcs, we can then argue that ork HQ choices are as large as WH ogres due to their bases, so this depends which system he's basing his orcs on. The only real difference is that in 40k they grow larger, while in WH it just states about their healing properties and the fact that their skin gets tougher, so 40k ork will just need a bit of toning down, while a WH orc will need an increase to natural armour or a +1 constitution per x levels, and possibly an ability that let them reatach lost limbs and have faster natural healing (trust me, I have the army book).

But any way, get rid of the increasing strength, it will make your player a black orc at level 5.

AgentPaper
2009-10-29, 06:11 AM
LA +1 can work, but nix the increasing strength scores. It doesn't make any sense, anyways. Then, start the out with +6 str, +4 con, -2 dex, -4 int, -4 wis, -2 cha. DR 5/lethal is very flavorful, basically make them very resistant to torture, and hard to knock out. The only way to deal with an ork is to kill it dead, and this reflects that. Probably won't come up all that often for a player, but then neither does dwarven poison resistance. :smallwink:

For the increasing size, give them racial feats, that they can take at levels 5, 10, and 15, the first giving Powerful Build, the second replacing that with Large size, (with special note that it doesn't change their stats, though it does give 10 ft reach) and then the third giving Powerful Build again. Each feat has the previous ones as a prerequisite.

I'd also think about giving them a racial feat called "Mekboy" or something, gives them +6 int, (so +2 total) -2 con, and -2 strength. This basically allows the ork to be a wizard or other int-based caster. The +2 int doesn't really make up for the +1 LA for a wizard, but it helps, and it would make for a pretty good gish, or at least a wizard that isn't afraid of being in danger more often.

Realms of Chaos
2009-10-29, 06:12 AM
If you want comparison with other LAs, that is what you will get.

You canít get much more martial-based than Giants [/ur], right? After all, I see that your mixing the flavor of orcs and giants.
Look at the fire giant for a moment. The fire giant has 15 HD and +4 level adjustment.

Now, letís take a look at what that +4 level adjustment gets you.
+20 Str, -2 Dex, +10 Con, +4 Wisdom, Low-light vision, Not humanoid, +10 speed, Large Size, +8 Natural Armor, Low-light vision, Rock Throwing/Catching, Low-light vision, and Fire Immunity/Cold Vulnerability.

Note: In case you donít know where Iím getting these numbers, you find the racial ability modifiers for MM creatures by subtracting 10 for even scores or 11 for odd scores.

By the time that the fire giant would be playable (15 HD + 4 LA + 1 level = level 20), letís take a look at what your orc is giving us (1 LA + 19 levels).
+24 Str, +20 Con, -2 Int, -4 Wis, -2 Cha, Large Size, +1 BAB, +4 vs Fear, DR 5/lethal, 10% resistance to Critical Hits, and Powerful Build

Now, letís take a deeper look.
Ability Scores: The Orcs get a net bonus of +36 to their ability scores. The Giant gets a net bonus of +32. This is not a good thing. That is not a good thing at all. Even if you argue that +4 Wis means less being dominated than -4 Wis, such an imbalance should not exist between a +1 LA and +4 LA.
Size: Both races are large. Due to Powerful build, however, your orcs are treated as huge for most purposes. Once again, the orcs win. Still not good.
Miscellanea: This is the category for everything that hasnít been discussed up until now. As this is large, Iíll go through the two races individually.
Fire Giants: The low-light vision of giants doesnít count for much and Rock throwing/Catching is just a new weapon proficiency and protection from the attacks of other giants and catapults. Not being humanoid is only an advantage at low levelsÖ where you canít play as a fire giant. Fire Immunity is good and makes for fun tactics (like charging opponents while covered in magma) but it is severely weakened by Cold Vulnerability. In fact, fire immunity/cold vulnerability is considered weak enough to give it away as a feat you can take at first level (it only works while in a barbarianís rage but the point stands). As such, the immunity is worth a little more than a single feat. What really does matter, however, is the +10 speed and +8 natural armor. Those are relatively big.
Orcs: Although normally not much, let me point out that +4 against fear means that Orcs and Fire Giants have an equal chance of resisting fear effects (but itís still not important). DR 5/lethal is also more decoration than anything else. 10% resistance to critical hits will rarely win the day, either. In fact, the only thing that your orcs have going for it in this department is the +1 BAB. Although this bonus only replaces the LA, this is still a bit groundbreaking, if not broken.
In general: speed and natural armor easily beat out +1 BAB, especially as that +1 BAB doesnít grant access to any extra attacks.
The Final Result: As for which race is better, it is actually very close. If you want to go with raw damage, go orcish barbarian. For a more conservative fighter with ability to get around, use a fire giant. These races, a +1 LA and a +4 LA, are completely balanced against each other.

Argument to Expected Counterargument: The most obvious argument to make against my points is that the LA system is pretty much broken, assuming that 15 HD equals 15 class levels and that everything above and beyond that falls into the LA. Putting aside the fact that you asked for an LA comparison, letís look at that statement.
Letís pretend that a Fire Giant replaced all 15 of their racial hit dice with barbarian levels, rendering the above problem a moot point. As racial hit dice are no longer in the picture, the newly level 16 Fire Giant (16 levels + 4 LA) is far more powerful, becoming either balanced or overpowered depending on your view. That said, your Level 19 Orc kills this fire giant in almost all situations because the abilities that the fire giant paid 4 levels to gain equal those that the orc paid for with a measly 1 level.

Well, perhaps that is on too big of a scale to be properly demonstrative. Letís look at a few less powerful races:

[url=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/gnoll.htm]Gnoll: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm) The gnoll is a savage humanoid that is known for pretty much nothing else other than fighting. It is LA +1 with 2 Racial Hit Dice (henceforth referred to as RHD).
To be more than generous, Iíll ignore how the orc so obviously outranks the gnoll at higher levels and focus on level 4, when the gnoll is first playable.

Racial Traits of Gnoll: +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha, Darkvision 60 ft, +1 natural armor
Racial Traits of Orc: +8 Str, +4 Con, -2 Int, -4 Wis, -2 Cha, +1 BAB, +4 vs Fear, DR 5/lethal, 10% resistance to Critical Hits, and Powerful Build
Comparison: Okay, this one should be obvious to anyone with 2 eyes. Orc wins on all levels.

Ogres: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ogre.htm)I believe that ogres have already been mentioned. For the record, you got something terribly wrong. Ogres do not start adventuring at level 2. They start adventuring at level 7 (4 RHD + 2 LA + 1 level). With that in mind, letís compare the Ogre with the Orcs as they appear at level 7 (once again completely ignoring how obviously better they become as they level up).
Racial Traits of Ogre: +10 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, -4 Int, -4 Wis, Not humanoid, Large, +10 speed, +5 natural armor, Darkvision 60 Feet, Low-light vision
Racial Traits of Orc: +12 Str, +6 Con, -2 Int, -4 Wis, -2 Cha, +1 BAB, +4 vs Fear, DR 5/lethal, 10% resistance to Critical Hits, and Powerful Build
At first glance, this one looks like a very close fight. the Ogre has 2 forms of special vision, not being humanoid counts for something at level 7, youíve got 10 foot range, extra speed, and natural armor. Unfortunately, that first impression is very misleading for 2 reasons.
1. First of all, look at the stats. The ogre gets a net bonus of +4 while the Orc gets a net bonus of +10.
2. Secondly, at this level, the level adjustment hurts the Ogre and not the Orc. Even if we replace the Ogreís RHD with levels in a class that has full BAB, it only has a BAB of +5, meaning 1 attack per round. The Orc, however, has a BAB of +7, meaning 2 attacks. The Ogre is simply out-gunned.
While you may point out (correctly) that this problem solves itself at next level (or in 2 levels if not replacing RHD), allow me to remind you that if weíre taking the long view, I have full right to compare an Ogre barbarian 20 to a Orcish barbarian 25 and laugh at the inequity created by your scaling ability bonuses.

My Advice on the Race:
The cumulative growth without end is a bit of a problem as this race is eventually better than every single other race at being a combatant by an absurd degree. Even if there is some balancing mechanism to this potential growth in the fluff that you refuse to post (limited lifespans?), these will in practice never be enough to stop players from breaking the race anyways (unless you only intend this as an NPC race, which would also be good to mention).
You challenged us to find you examples of LA that proved this needed modification. I have done so. Now, I ask you to find us a single playable race with racial features that advance indefinitely in this way. Of intended player races (not counting racial classes from Savage Species), the number of races that improve in time can be listed on a single hand (hellbred, dragonborn, raptoran) and there are a couple of monsters that advance their own hit dice (Barghest from MM, Nabassu from Fiendish Codex, and one demon(?) from the Fiend Folio). All of these races have built in limits to how much they can improve.
I see no logical reason for the unlimited growth (beyond acquisition of class levels) and ask that you up the LA and put a cap on the progression (both of size and abilities).

Some words of advice (Important):
Most people know that the LAs given out by WotC are always over-inflated. Many argue that races like the Aasimar donít deserve any level adjustment at all. You, however, seem to be taking the wrong approach to this problem.
What you have just done is make a class that you probably feel pushes the limit of what +1 LA SHOULD be able to do. However, you said nothing about this and did not mention a different power curve in your campaigns so this point was not at all communicated.
Instead, we read this and think you expect us to believe that this is balanced next to a gnoll or hobgoblin, something that is clearly not the case.
Most of us on these boards post homebrew for general use by anybody. Therefore, we typically use WotC material as a benchmark for balance. If you go changing the power paradigm and donít tell us, we not only wonít but canít give you any amount of useful critiquing.

Final Words:
If this was an honest-to-goodness attempt to make a powerful-but-balanced martial class, I apologize for having come across as rude and even downright venomous at times while making this post. I get a bit carried away from time to time.

If this was some attempt to make a joke or make a new meme that rivals the Lightning warrior, that is just juvenile and I will know to ignore your posts in the future until it seems that you have redeemed yourself in some fashion.

If this was done just to annoy us, to pointlessly defend the virtues of an obviously overpowered race as we poke it apart for the sake of kicks (and possibly giggles), you should be ashamed.

Ashtagon
2009-10-29, 06:53 AM
Sooo... If we look at WH 40k, all the orks are on avarage as large as WH orcs, we can then argue that ork HQ choices are as large as WH ogres due to their bases, so this depends which system he's basing his orcs on.

40k and WFB have the same fluff wrt growth.

Just to be sure, I checked GW's catalogue (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/listProducts.jsp?catId=cat1300048) for space orks. Their HQ units are either on the same scale as regular ork infantry, or else wearing mega-armour, which is conceptually equivalent to some kind of small mecha.

Also: holy crap the price of miniatures has shot up!

Anonymouswizard
2009-10-29, 01:11 PM
40k and WFB have the same fluff wrt growth.
Find me the entry in the WH orcs and goblins army book and i'll believe you. So WARRRGH all you like, but in all the army book I do not believe that their is a single passage that states that they grow due to fighting or do not have a hight cap. However, I do know there is something about them healing fast, which this race does not seem to have. Also if we're going there: goblins are small sized, +2 dex and wis, -2 cha, 30 ft speed, improved inititiave as a bonus feat, with a small selection of other abilities if someone can find a part with any (I think I got all of them). Night goblins get light sensitivity from the fluff, but an extra +2 to dex (getting +4 total).

Solaris
2009-10-29, 02:05 PM
Personally, I'd keep the growth but do it by HD rather than by BAB. 6-10 HD, +1 size. Capping out at Large might be a good idea, then save Huge and bigger for Epic-scale stuff.
Have you considered statting them out more along the lines of ordinary orcs, then providing a racial prestige class that's pretty much nothing but ability boosts?

imp_fireball
2009-10-30, 01:52 AM
Add on those other points, and you have a full-fledged monster, just slip in some ability scores, a stronger damage and a slightly better armor class and you're set for about a CR 18 encounter.

So? You're already level 20. What's stopping you, orc or not?


Personally, I'd keep the growth but do it by HD

I made it BAB because that way martial characters can be big while non-martial's are still smaller. Orcs typically fight. Non-martial characters don't fight in the traditional sense and so they shouldn't grow like serious choppa swingers do.


I see no logical reason for the unlimited growth (beyond acquisition of class levels) and ask that you up the LA and put a cap on the progression (both of size and abilities).

I could probably reduce the rate of growth and up the LA to +2? Congratulations on finding a solid solution to what people keep thinking is a joke (I'm actually trying to intelligently transcribe a race to D&D kkthxbai).

Vadin
2009-10-30, 01:59 PM
I could probably reduce the rate of growth and up the LA to +2? Congratulations on finding a solid solution to what people keep thinking is a joke (I'm actually trying to intelligently transcribe a race to D&D kkthxbai).

A repeated refusal to change things to what would be considered balanced by the majority of people may have led some of us to think that you weren't actually out to make something balanced, but to present us with something broken and insist that it wasn't despite direct evidence to the contrary.

Krazddndfreek
2009-10-30, 04:38 PM
So? You're already level 20. What's stopping you, orc or not?



I made it BAB because that way martial characters can be big while non-martial's are still smaller. Orcs typically fight. Non-martial characters don't fight in the traditional sense and so they shouldn't grow like serious choppa swingers do.



I could probably reduce the rate of growth and up the LA to +2? Congratulations on finding a solid solution to what people keep thinking is a joke (I'm actually trying to intelligently transcribe a race to D&D kkthxbai).

What I meant there, was that you should just make it a monster with racial HD instead of allowing it class levels. Just 20 monster HD or even levels in commoner and it could probably pose a threat to a level 20 party by itself if it had those strength boosts. Plus, by going by BAB you're not actually putting any restrictions on it, any race that grants more than 2 strength is going to almost always be a warrior type. Your race gives eleven times that much. Thus, all of those mental ability scores are also useless, so decreasing them isn't a huge detriment (wisdom aside if you're playing barbarian). Just use the regular orc as a template for balance, then work from there.

imp_fireball
2009-10-31, 09:42 PM
Just use the regular orc as a template for balance, then work from there.

And I already have. I suggest taking this criticism to a different angle instead of whining about something because it's different from everything that's been released in the books.

dwennon
2009-10-31, 11:04 PM
well the thing is what you have here is something that is a good idea but is so drastically different than almost everything else made for 3.5 with some traits that can make some optimizers want to do martial that's not totemist, bladesinger, warblade, or crusader. However it is a good idea just needs alot of tweaking to have a low LA without racial HD.

Vadin
2009-11-01, 01:07 AM
And I already have. I suggest taking this criticism to a different angle instead of whining about something because it's different from everything that's been released in the books.

Ohhh, this again. Your "Your argument is invalid because mine is special" argument.

Sir, this is a fallacy.

We are not whining about it because it is different. You asked for critique on balance. It was provided. Solutions were presented. You refused them. What you call uniqueness is the main reason it is so unbalanced, and in defense of this uniqueness you refuse to change things. Again we come back to the question: are you willing to change things to make them balanced compared to most other things in 3.5 or do you maintain that there's no need to change it at all and you really don't want to hear any critique? Judging from your previous responses, it would seem the latter.

imp_fireball
2009-11-01, 01:26 AM
You refused them.

Actually I didn't. I only refused yours (racial HD suggestion), I recall.

Clearly, I don't want to include racial HD.

Krazddndfreek
2009-11-01, 01:48 AM
And I already have. I suggest taking this criticism to a different angle instead of whining about something because it's different from everything that's been released in the books.

Really? Which part?

You also refused to remove the scaling strength bonus. This is very unbalanced.

Clearly 22 bonus strength is too much for LA +1. That's up in LA +6. Vampires (who are LA +6) don't even get nearly that much ability bonus and they get null constitution, which can gravely reduce hp totals. Of course, they make up in numerous special abilities, which is why I'm saying this.

Stick with +4 strength. Its still pretty brutal. +6 is a little over the top, but you'll be able to work it with LA +2 since you're not going for racial HD. Anything above that, and you're dealing with racial HD. Otherwise, you can have an orc barbarian with 15 hp and average 17 damage output that's supposed to count as a level 2 character. Not fun for DMs. Trust me, I tried DMing a campaign with half-dragons, but they weren't made to be a player race in the Monster Manual, and I always either ended up killing them immediately or giving them encounters which they ended in one or two rounds without getting hit. Maybe you've had a different experience, but I'm sticking firmly by my belief that that much ability boost is too much.

Vadin
2009-11-01, 01:50 AM
Actually I didn't. I only refused yours (racial HD suggestion), I recall.

Clearly, I don't want to include racial HD.

No, I never suggested Racial Hit Dice. I (and quite a few others) frowned at the +1 Racial BAB, which negates the LA to a certain degree, the automatic change in size with increased BAB, and the regular increases in Strength and Constitution based on BAB.

And now they have Fast Healing 1 outside of combat, so every ork will begin every encounter with full health without having to expend any of his resources. With all that extra health from his regularly increasing constitution, however, that (dieing from taking damage in combat) likely wouldn't be a problem anyways.

The regular increases to STR and CON based on BAB are the biggest red-flags that you keep refusing to think about changing.

Krazddndfreek
2009-11-01, 01:56 AM
The BAB thing as well. BAB can only be gained through HD, whether it be by racial or class levels, it must be gained with HD. A racial bonus to all attack rolls will work better but it still won't work with only LA +1 or +2 with the massive strength and constitution bonuses.

imp_fireball
2009-11-01, 03:14 AM
The BAB thing as well. BAB can only be gained through HD, whether it be by racial or class levels, it must be gained with HD. A racial bonus to all attack rolls will work better but it still won't work with only LA +1 or +2 with the massive strength and constitution bonuses.

It doesn't have to work. It has to make fluff sense.


Clearly 22 bonus strength is too much for LA +1.

Where'd the 22 bonus strength come in? That happens at higher levels. Why are you saying this?


The regular increases to STR and CON based on BAB are the biggest red-flags that you keep refusing to think about changing.

Yah there not much of a problem if I stick to fluff logic. Too bad there's no warhammer fans here fighting for my right to create a warhammer orc and not some completely different orc altogether.

Ashtagon
2009-11-01, 03:43 AM
You still never explained how an orc gets to +30 (or +60) bab. Under RAW, No creature, even at level 9000, gets more than +20 bab. Ever. It just isn't allowed in any WotC-published rulebook.


Yah there not much of a problem if I stick to fluff logic. Too bad there's no warhammer fans here fighting for my right to create a warhammer orc and not some completely different orc altogether.

Speaking as the owner of two complete Warhammer armies (orcs and chaos), I'd have to disagree.

Talbot
2009-11-01, 04:59 AM
I'm a bit rusty on 3.5, but here's my thinking.

The bonuses to Strength and Con are broken for LA+1. Quite frankly, they're more or less broken period. I understand the desire to create a specific creature, but what you're missing is that the creature (Warhammer Orc) you want to create IS that much more powerful than normal critters in 3.5; that being the case, there are two reasonable options here: you can keep the bonuses, and increase the LA to reflect that (thereby sticking to your interpretation of the class), or you can nerf the bonuses a bit and keep the LA where you want it; doing neither means you're making a race that can't really be played; in any campaign that allows what you've got, any player who doesn't take Orc as their race is going to be outclassed in a hurry. That's what makes comparing it to the rest of 3.5 relevant; it's totally fine to be unique, but you have to be unique in a way that doesn't totally invalidate the system you're playing in.

Beyond that, the size bonuses and BAB are a bit more negotiable. The BAB is an issue, but if you nerf the bonuses enough it might be defensible; after all, you're still missing out on a HD and some saves for that first level, it's not like you're totally neutralizing the level adjustment (having said that, you're definitely putting a dent in it; whether or not a +1 racial BAB is ok or not is an issue for somebody better versed in 3.5 than I am). The size stuff, considering some of the things that, say, Clerics can get away with, is powerful, but not necessarily unreasonable. It might warrant a higher LA, or perhaps it should come at later levels than you have it listed, but it isn't (IMO) broken in concept.

Anyways, that's my two cents. Hopefully it's helpful.

Anonymouswizard
2009-11-01, 05:12 AM
Either remove the bonus to BAB or add a racial hit dice. Also, if you insist on them indefinatel getting larger: make them become large size and lose powerful build, then give them powerful build, then make them huge size and lose powerful build... would be the way to do it. Either the scaling strength bonus should be slower or it should be based on size. Also, the standard WH orc does stop getting stronger if you look at the profiles: even warbosses are strength 4/5 (can't remember which: big bosses are 4).

Also, if you truely want scaling strength, orc PrC

lesser_minion
2009-11-01, 08:10 AM
Wich again doesn't fit the greenskins culture in any way.

Orks don't train in times of leisure. Stormboyz maybe. All the others fool around, eating, drinking, telling stories and testing out new ways of unleashing violence.

If anything, they should take listen penalties, because many orks are known to destroy their own eardrums by trying to make their weapons and vehicles as noisy as possible.

I don't think these are meant to be WH40k Orcs.

Looking at the orc statline in WFB:

An orc in the fantasy battle game starts with WS 3, BS 2, S 3, T 4, W 1, I 2, A 1, Ld 7 Weapon Skill 3 is the exact same as any other trained melee combatant. No RHD or free BAB. BS 2 implies poor depth perception and poor co-ordination. Dex -4 (resulting in 6-7 for commoners) would work. The best Str bonus S 3 can justify is Str +2 (Str 12-13 commoners), not Str +4 and certainly not Str +6. Toughness 4 equates to a +4 Con bonus (Con 14-15 commoners). Initiative 2 suggests a -4 to Wisdom and corroborates the -4 Dex finding. I'd suggest also awarding a -2 to Intelligence Ld 7. Nothing special, although you could possibly award a +2 bonus on saves vs. fear to counteract the wisdom penalty An orc's Strength does grow more than a human's does as the orc gains levels - a human lord character gains a +1 to S and T, while an orc lord character gains a +2 to S and +1 T. They shouldn't gain any Con bonuses as they level based on that, and adding strength is also probably a bad move. Just give them Powerful Build at some point. No orc should have a free size increase. 25mm base = medium size creature. A large creature either has a cavalry base or a 40mm base. Don't bother with a charisma penalty. Orcs might be ugly, but that has no bearing on charisma. Nobody would play them if they didn't have some appeal.


Orcs also use choppas. Best handled by Weapon Familiarity (Choppa) and making the choppa into an exotic weapon.

Jair Barik
2009-11-01, 08:49 AM
Dependant upon how similar WHFB Orcs are to WH40k Orks you may have to change their creature type to plant if you want to really fit the fluff.

Also you ask for a martial race to compare to?
Thri-Keen
Thri keen get +2 strength, 4 dexterity and 2 wisdom with penalties of 2 intelligence and 4 charisma.
They have a number of useful abilities geared towards combat and have a LA of 2 in addition to 2 RHD.

Compare to your proposed Orc.
You want it at LA2 with higher martial ability scores overall, equally powerful special abilities and some more powerful than those found on a thri-keen as it develops.
A thri-keen is a strong race and is slightly imbalanced in some respects when you think about it.

Seriously if you want people to top complaining then start listening to their advice and stop acting as though everybodies being unfairly critical of your conversion. If you want the BAB give it RHD. RHD are generally better suited to a martial creature than LA is anyway so keep it as LA2 and then add some RHD in and make a few concessions on the more ludicrous and un fluffed powers.

imp_fireball
2009-11-01, 10:33 AM
Speaking as the owner of two complete Warhammer armies (orcs and chaos), I'd have to disagree.

Disagree with what? That I'm assuming all warhammer fans will agree with me? Because I'm not.

I love how people try to search for pride in others that's not there. /sarcasm

Anonymouswizard
2009-11-01, 03:11 PM
If you want to make the warhammer orc (and just to be correct, the 40k version is the ORK with a k) they should begin with a +0 or +2 strength (humans, and infact many base troops have strength 3) although you may want to give them + at 5 HD or so. Also, can we have a feat that lets large numbers of orcs be effective for a few rounds, called WAAAARGH!!!. It would probally give a +2 enhancement bonus to strength and a +10 bonus for speed (and the warboss PrC gives the improved WAAAARGH!!! ability).

Also, can we get rules for the spells of both the big WAAARGH and the little WAAAARGH, as well as an orc/goblin style shaman class. Can you stat out black orcs, goblins and night goblins?

SurlySeraph
2009-11-02, 01:31 AM
Do you want suggestions on balance or not? Because the consensus is that this is not balanced as written, and steps to make it balanced have been suggested. You can take those steps and make this balanced, or you can ignore them and make this thread pointless.

Solaris
2009-11-02, 05:13 AM
Do you want suggestions on balance or not? Because the consensus is that this is not balanced as written, and steps to make it balanced have been suggested. You can take those steps and make this balanced, or you can ignore them and make this thread pointless.

Y'know, I really think he doesn't. I bowed out of the thread because, despite being a fan of orcs and orks alike, the OP seems to not take the critique well at all. He responds to everything with snarkiness - I'm really not seeing why y'all are even bothering.

lesser_minion
2009-11-02, 05:45 AM
I'll repost my suggestion of what a Warhammer orc actually would look like in D&D terms:

+2 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, -2 Int, -4 Wis Orcs with a base attack bonus of +9 or more receive powerful build. Orcs receive a +2 bonus on Will saves to resist fear. Orcs are slow and inattentive, and suffer a -2 penalty to spot, listen and search checks. Additionally, they suffer a further -2 penalty to initiative checks. Orcish blood Power of the Waaaagh! - Orcs may make a full attack as part of a charge. +3 LA. And with Pounce and Powerful Build, I think they would have earned it, although you might want to tone it down to 3 or 4 RHD and no LA.



That not only "makes fluff sense", but it also does so properly. Not everything in fluff has to be represented in game mechanics, and certainly not by something like your extremely fast scaling strength idea.

Remember also that GW always exaggerate their fluff to make things seem 'kewl'. Orcs are possibly the single most triumphant example of this, as most of the WFB design team have either dwarves or orcs as a favourite race.

Also, are you sure you want to give them fast healing which functions only when it might actually present a problem and makes no sense in fluff?

Gorbad Ironclaw (the greatest orc warlord in Warhammer history) was permanently debilitated by the wounds he suffered fighting the Elector Count of Solland. Runefang or not, that doesn't strike me as someone with fast healing.

Especially considering that the runefangs carry a rune that allows them to pierce any and all armour, not one that prevents the wounds they cause from healing.

Ashtagon
2009-11-02, 08:08 AM
Just for giggles, I decided to go through my old conversion notes. One of the things I did was analyse the WH profiles of the various races. In the following notes, X+Y refers to the base attribute value for that race (X), and the difference between the base and the highest lord character (Y). X+Y together gives the stats for the highest lord character of that race.

Human:
M 4, WS 3+3, BS 3+2, S 3+1, T 3+1, W 1+2, I 3+3, A 1+3, Ld 7+2

Orc (and Savage Orc):
M 4, WS 3+3, BS 3+0, S 3+1, T 4+1, W 1+2, I 2+3, A 1+3, Ld 7+2

Black Orc:
M 4, WS 4+3, BS 3+0, S 4+1, T 4+1, W 1+2, I 2+3, A 1+3, Ld 8+1

Differences: Orcs never improve their BS, their T starts (and ends) one point higher, and their I starts (and ends) one point lower.

In other words, based purely on WFB rules, there is zero justification for any progressive increase on physical stats beyond what any other character would receive.

Black orcs start with higher WS and S, but again, they don't improve any faster than regular humans. Note that black orcs are not orcs; they are a different race.

Based on the fact that their BS never improves (not even for their specialist missile units), one of the following racial rules would be perfectly justified:

* -2 penalty on attack rolls with missile weapons
* Halve all range increment numbers with missile weapons.
* BAB with missile weapons is always calculated as if the orc had a poor BAB progression, regardless of character class.

When converting creatures from one game system to another, it is best to be cautious about using fluff notes, especially if that fluff is written from the perspective of either side. Creatures are often "talked up" in-character, to appear more powerful than the rules would actually make them.

----

Finally, the orc choppa. Fluff-wise, it sounds scary, rules-wise, you get a +1 S bonus in the first round of combat. This bonus is exactly identical to the morning star, another weapon defined in the core rules and usable by any race.

The choppa varies from the morning star slightly, in that you can wield one in each hand, and in that you can't wield it with a shield. This feels more like a racial preference ruling rather than something about the physical properties of the choppa itself.

A simple +2 Strength bonus would reflect the choppa bonus more than adequately (note that baseline orcs are equal in strength to humans in WFB).

Another way to stat out the orc choppa is to treat it as a dwarven waraxe (the axe version of the bastard sword), and give orcs free proficiency with the weapon.

----

Overall:

* Medium size
* 30-foot base speed
* orc blood for purposes of spell effects and magic item activation etc.
* low-light vision
* +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma (I base the Charisma penalty on orc society being unable to form long-term large-scale organisations; ymmv).
* All range increments are halved for missile and thrown weapons; orcs are not accustomed to fighting from a distance, and prefer to get in close.
* Orcs can purchase Powerful Build as if it were a feat with a minimum character level requirement of 3rd level.
* Orcs can rage 1/day as if they were 1st level barbarians; if they have levels in the barbarian class, the barbarian rage feature replaces this ability.
* Favoured class: fighter (nb. not barbarian).
* LA: +1

Variant orc races. All the above applies except where specifically changed below.

Black Orcs:
* +4 Strength, +4 Constitution, -2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence (replaces all ability score modifiers above).
* No bonus rage ability.
* Bonus feat at 1st level; must be chosen from the list of fighter bonus feats.
* LA +2.

Savage orcs:
* Dislikes armour: Savage orcs suffer a -2 penalty on attack rolls if wearing heavy armour. They may wear light or medium armour normally, although most prefer to go with little more than a loincloth. (nb. Not really a significant disadvantage, as their favoured class doesn't normally wear heavy armour anyway).
* Savage orcs can rage 1/day as if they were 1st level barbarians; if they have levels in the barbarian class, they get one additional use of the rage ability per day.
* Favoured class: barbarian
* LA +1

imp_fireball
2009-11-02, 08:18 PM
Alright well I changed everything to the above, except I that I got rid of the DEX penalty and made it a penalty to Wisdom. Orcs aren't inclined to think ahead... but perhaps their craftiness should remove the penalty to intelligence? They're also highly mobile, hence removing the DEX penalty, and the game (probably for balance reasons) gave them low initiatives, hence the -2 initiative.

I also gave orcs DR 5/lethal since punching an orc seems like a bad idea. Especially if there heads are the size of a human torso, wouldn't they be suffering more concussions?

Ashtagon
2009-11-03, 03:51 AM
Dr 5/lethal: Since this only affects non-lethal damage, it's really a minor ability. Taken literally as written, it would protect against environmental effects from heat or cold, as well as starvation. I'm sure that's not what's intended, but I'm not sure how to keep this ability and rephrase it properly to avoid that loophole. I disagree on the size of their heads though, but meh.

Wisdom: Between Int, Wis, and Cha, it was a tough call deciding what to reduce. For comparison, WFB 3rd edition (and WFRP 1e) had the following mental stats for orcs (all merged into an anonymous Ld in later editions of WFB):

Leadership: 7, Intelligence: 6, Cool: 7, Willpower: 7 (all of these were 7 for humans).

Intelligence is what we all think it is, cool was used for certain psychology tests, and willpower was the magic resistance and spell-casting potential ability. Since there isn't anything in the raw stats to suggest a drop in Wisdom, I left that one be.

If you do reduce Wisdom, you should give them a bonus on fear saves and maybe Survival to compensate enough to counter that penalty.

Dexterity/Initiative: Note that Initiative in WFB is the "dodge" stat, as well as determining combat sequence. As I noted upthread, WFRP 1e had a Dexterity attribute, and WFRP 2e had an Agility attribute; in both cases, orcs were markedly inferior to humans.

Orc reputation for mobility is more on a mass population "these things get everywhere" scale, rather than on an individual level.

If you are going to release orcs from the Dexterity penalty, you should do the same for black orcs.

Savage Orcs: After thinking about it a little more, I have a feeling their armour penalty be -2 for medium armour and -4 for heavy armour, otherwise they are strictly better in every possible way that matters. I should also have noted that the penalty also applies to all skills that would take an armour penalty.

Advanced Stuff:

There should be a warpaint magic item that grants savage orcs either DR or AC.

An orc prestige class that grants +2 Str and +2 Con over 10 levels (and requires Powerful Build as a prerequisite). Care needs to be taken so that this prestige class would be a no-brainer choice, and also won't be too railroaded in its application.

Waaagh orcish magic needs doing.