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Korivan
2009-10-28, 11:31 PM
So, for a few inspiration points, I can replicate any extrodinary ability from base classes so long as that ability can be found in a class by level 15. Correct? What I want to know is there any ex)abilities that are all that worth while? I don't want to use Rage, I like playing a smart strategist using intelligence to my advantage, not brute tactics.
Theres Evasion
Warmage Edge
Swashbucklers 'Lucky'
Divine Health(thought that would be su, but it says ex)
Cloaked Casting
Surprise Casting

These are about the only ones I could find that might be worth while, can anybody suggest anything else?

Lycanthromancer
2009-10-28, 11:36 PM
Spellcasting is Ex.

The fighter's entire Bonus Feat progression is Ex.

Sneak attack is Ex.

The monk's flurry of blows is Ex.

Lots of PrCs have good Ex abilities (think Dervish).

Rage is, of course, Ex.

Animal companions are (I believe) Ex.

Korivan
2009-10-28, 11:41 PM
Spellcasting is Ex.

The fighter's entire Bonus Feat progression is Ex.

Sneak attack is Ex.

The monk's flurry of blows is Ex.

Lots of PrCs have good Ex abilities (think Dervish).

Rage is, of course, Ex.

Animal companions are (I believe) Ex.

Can't use PrC's, says Base classes only. If I can pick out PrC's then my list would probably be HUGE. Didn't see Ex on the fighters Bonus Feats(I can always just use the spell Heroics on a wand for that anyways).

sofawall
2009-10-28, 11:41 PM
PrCs are not allowed.

A lot of what was you listed has no ability type listed.

Ninja'd.

Milskidasith
2009-10-28, 11:43 PM
Animal companions, however, are Ex. I believe a monk's AC bonus is also Ex, and you can get the ACF that gets you into to AC, so you get int to AC twice. Or, as somebody would say if I didn't say it:

Yo, I heard you like getting your Int to AC, so I let you get your Int to AC while you get your Int to AC so you can get Int to AC while you get Int to AC.

Lycanthromancer
2009-10-28, 11:45 PM
Savage progressions are technically considered "classes"...

Also, feats are always Ex unless noted otherwise (like psionic feats, which are Su).

arguskos
2009-10-28, 11:47 PM
Spellcasting is Ex.
I've heard this. Care to provide a place in the rules where that's actually listed? I can't seem to find it. The best I can find is a note that says Ex abilities are specifically non-magical, which seems to preclude spellcasting. :smallconfused:

Milskidasith
2009-10-28, 11:50 PM
I've heard this. Care to provide a place in the rules where that's actually listed? I can't seem to find it. The best I can find is a note that says Ex abilities are specifically non-magical, which seems to preclude spellcasting. :smallconfused:

Well spellcasting itself has to be Ex to allow Invoke Magic to work; if spellcasting was a Su ability, even if Invoke Magic could be cast in an AMF, you wouldn't be able to cast at all because you'd lose spellcasting in an AMF.

But that's just conjecture based on the bad wording of both AMF and Invoke Magic.

arguskos
2009-10-28, 11:51 PM
Well spellcasting itself has to be Ex to allow Invoke Magic to work; if spellcasting was a Su ability, even if Invoke Magic could be cast in an AMF, you wouldn't be able to cast at all because you'd lose spellcasting in an AMF.

But that's just conjecture based on the bad wording of both AMF and Invoke Magic.
Not sure we should be basing anything off of one of the most famously poorly worded spells ever. :smalltongue: AMF isn't really reliable as far as rules go, after all.

I'm just wondering if there is an official ruling one way or the other, not that it's super important or anything.

Korivan
2009-10-28, 11:52 PM
I think if I ever get this ability I'm just gonna save the DM and me some time and arguing and stick with just the things that have the EX descriptor. No adding spellcasting classes on for me.

sofawall
2009-10-28, 11:53 PM
Also, feats are always Ex unless noted otherwise (like psionic feats, which are Su).

But the bonus feat progression of the fighter is not typed.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-10-29, 12:05 AM
I want to say that the ruling that spellcasting is (Ex) comes from a monster stat block with some sort of casting. That, or the default rule may be to assume it's (Ex) if no type is listed, much like the Fighter's bonus feats.

Having checked the Solar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar), I'm inclined to say it's the latter, but I can't find relevant rules to support that claim at the moment.

Krazddndfreek
2009-10-29, 12:11 AM
I'm not sure what the Factotum exactly looks like, so I'll assume its pretty similar to the rogue minus sneak attacks:

You could get combat styles from ranger
Timeless Body from Druid just for kicks.
Favored enemy is also (Ex), I would imagine that would be pretty useful.
Sneak attack obviously.
Monk's Slow Fall.
Improved evasion
Diamond Soul, SR is fun
Venom Immunity/Purity of Body/Divine Health
Some Rogue 10th level special abilities like crippling strike and opportunitist
Surprise Casting (Beguiler) for swift action feinting (if you have improved feint already)
Some draconic adaptations (Dragon Shaman)
Armored Mage
Pretty much any knight ability (sans bonus feats)
Holy crap... any Ex maneuvers! (which are any that are learnable by crusaders or warblades)

There are probably many more, I just listed the ones I noticed.

EDIT: If its not typed, then its not typed. Simple as that, its not Ex.

Curmudgeon
2009-10-29, 12:12 AM
Scouts get Camouflage at 8th level and Hide in Plain Sight at 14th level, and both of those are plainly marked as (Ex).

Lycanthromancer
2009-10-29, 12:12 AM
A spellcasting monster entry in the MMV explicitly stated that spellcasting is Ex. And anything that isn't Su, Ps, or Sp is automatically Ex or natural.

Krazddndfreek
2009-10-29, 12:13 AM
Wow. That is rigged. Wizards isn't exactly known for being consistent, however.

arguskos
2009-10-29, 12:18 AM
A spellcasting monster entry in the MMV explicitly stated that spellcasting is Ex. And anything that isn't Su, Ps, or Sp is automatically Ex or natural.
...really? Damn. If you recall, which one?

Lycanthromancer
2009-10-29, 12:20 AM
...really? Damn. If you recall, which one?

Not off-hand, no.

arguskos
2009-10-29, 12:21 AM
Not off-hand, no.
Shame. Time to MMV crawl then! :smallcool:

sofawall
2009-10-29, 12:22 AM
A spellcasting monster entry in the MMV explicitly stated that spellcasting is Ex. And anything that isn't Su, Ps, or Sp is automatically Ex or natural.

Hilarious. Classes aren't natural, so all classes are Ex if not specified.

Eldariel
2009-10-29, 04:23 AM
This post (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871722/The_Factotum_Handbook&post_num=3#338410254) has a pretty decent list.

Bayar
2009-10-29, 04:34 AM
Item Creation from the artificier is Ex. You can use any spell on any list for the purpose of item creation with succesful UMD checks, plus all the other goodies that comes with the standard artificier (can retry the UMD check every day until the item is complete and has a last ditch roll if you somehow failed all the other UMD rolls, emulate skill/race when crafting an item...)


Craft homonculus is also Ex.

dspeyer
2009-10-29, 08:40 AM
Can you take a warblade's maneuvers? This seems an underdefined ability.

Shhalahr Windrider
2009-10-29, 09:17 AM
The FAQ is somewhat inconsistent on the whole unmarked ability thing. A question applying this to racial traits gets a response that unmarked racial traits are neither extraordinary, spell-like, nor supernatural.

However, there is also a question specifically about the factotum situation here and class abilities. This one the response is that the DM must decide if an ability is extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural and that anything that doesn't have a clear supernatural element, such as Sneak Attack, is fair play as an Extraordinary ability.

NoldorForce
2009-10-29, 09:24 AM
Shame. Time to MMV crawl then! :smallcool:Check the hobgoblins. Though I don't regard it as precedent myself so much as an unfortunate exception.

@ OP: The Marshal's Auras ability is Ex. Yes, you can get up to eight minor and five major (or draconic, see Dragon Magic) auras by stealing only one class feature. Only the akashic does better.

Zeta Kai
2009-10-29, 09:53 AM
Spellcasting is Ex.

Wrong; it untyped, which not only doesn't count, but make no sense RAI.


The fighter's entire Bonus Feat progression is Ex.

Wrong; these are also untyped.


Sneak attack is Ex.

Wrong; this is also untyped. I see a pattern here.


The monk's flurry of blows is Ex.

Correct. Sub-optimal, but no more so than the Monk itself.


Lots of PrCs have good Ex abilities (think Dervish).

Irrelevant.


Rage is, of course, Ex.

Discounted by the OP.


Animal companions are (I believe) Ex.

Correct; I'd choose the Druid's version FTW.

Your suggestions are 2 correct out of a possible 7.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-29, 10:06 AM
Holy crap... any Ex maneuvers! (which are any that are learnable by crusaders or warblades)

The ability to initiate and recover them, but not the ability to learn them (Factotums have to copy both the maneuvers known and readied abilities).


@Zeta:


A spellcasting monster entry in the MMV explicitly stated that spellcasting is Ex. And anything that isn't Su, Ps, or Sp is automatically Ex or natural.

Natural and Ex are the same thing, so fair game.

Fax Celestis
2009-10-29, 10:12 AM
I want to say that the ruling that spellcasting is (Ex) comes from a monster stat block with some sort of casting. That, or the default rule may be to assume it's (Ex) if no type is listed, much like the Fighter's bonus feats.

Having checked the Solar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar), I'm inclined to say it's the latter, but I can't find relevant rules to support that claim at the moment.

No Type Listed =/= Extraordinary Ability. An ability is only extraordinary if (Ex) is listed.


Natural Abilities

This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

Extraordinary Abilities (Ex)

Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics. They are not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training.

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)

Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.

Supernatural Abilities (Su)

Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic.

Knight's Challenge, however, is one class feature and it is (Ex). Seriously, go look at it.

Haven
2009-10-29, 10:12 AM
The animal companion thing makes me laugh. So if you use an inspiration point, an incredibly powerful bear saunters over, starts mauling a dude for a minute, and then saunters off? Awesome.

Fax Celestis
2009-10-29, 10:18 AM
I want to say that the ruling that spellcasting is (Ex) comes from a monster stat block with some sort of casting. That, or the default rule may be to assume it's (Ex) if no type is listed, much like the Fighter's bonus feats.

Having checked the Solar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm#angelSolar), I'm inclined to say it's the latter, but I can't find relevant rules to support that claim at the moment.


Natural and Ex are the same thing, so fair game.

No Type Listed =/= Extraordinary Ability. An ability is only extraordinary if (Ex) is listed.


Natural Abilities

This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

Extraordinary Abilities (Ex)

Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics. They are not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training.

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp)

Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they are described.

Supernatural Abilities (Su)

Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic.


A spellcasting monster entry in the MMV explicitly stated that spellcasting is Ex. And anything that isn't Su, Ps, or Sp is automatically Ex or natural.

And this would be an exception. Usually, spellcasting is untyped.

Knight's Challenge, however, is one class feature and it is (Ex). Seriously, go look at it.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-29, 10:19 AM
The animal companion thing makes me laugh. So if you use an inspiration point, an incredibly powerful bear saunters over, starts mauling a dude for a minute, and then saunters off? Awesome.

Cue Shakespeare.

Zeta Kai
2009-10-29, 10:19 AM
Natural and Ex are the same thing, so fair game.

I disagree with that, one numerous grounds, & citing a splatbook published 7 years after the rules were established is not terribly convincing evidence. I wouldn't use MMV for its monsters, let alone its supposed errata.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-29, 10:27 AM
I disagree with that, one numerous grounds, & citing a splatbook published 7 years after the rules were established is not terribly convincing evidence. I wouldn't use MMV for its monsters, let alone its supposed errata.

WotC's official policy is that new overrides old. It works.

Fax Celestis
2009-10-29, 10:28 AM
WotC's official policy is that new overrides old. It works.

One monster is an exception, not errata.

NoldorForce
2009-10-29, 10:38 AM
One monster is an exception, not errata.It's actually something like three, but the point stands regardless. :smallwink:

Deth Muncher
2009-10-29, 10:44 AM
Cue Shakespeare.

:D

I'm glad other people know that stage direction.

Magnor Criol
2009-10-29, 10:47 AM
WotC's official policy is that new overrides old. It works.

To quote Curmudgeon, from the RAW thread:

No. You defer to the Primary Source.
...
The rule about newer material is for replacements of the same type (class, spell, feat, or whatever) and with the same name, or something that's officially named as a replacement. So Kaupaer's Skittish Nerves in Magic of FaerŻn is officially replaced by Nerveskitter in the Spell Compendium, because that's a named replacement. And the Expert Tactician feat in Complete Adventurer replaces the one in Song and Silence, even though they have little in common beyond the same name.


Cue Shakespeare.

Reference FTW. :smallbiggrin:

Haven
2009-10-29, 10:48 AM
Cue Shakespeare.

...well played.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-29, 10:50 AM
:D

I'm glad other people know that stage direction.

Well who doesn't? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ExitPursuedByABear)

Zeta Kai
2009-10-29, 10:51 AM
WotC's official policy is that new overrides old. It works.

Can you get me a quote on that? I've heard that specific overrides general, which often amounts to the same thing as new overrides old, but I've not heard it rendered explicitly as such.

Also, MMV doesn't say that all Spellcasting is now considered (Ex). It says that one monster's Spellcasting can be considered (Ex), & even that sounds like a Bad Idea.

Lastly, even if you MMV did say such a ludicrous thing, I still would argue against it because it's from MMV, & not a more reputable splatbook, such as PHB2 or the Rules Compendium. Speaking of which, does anyone have a quote from the Rules Compendium? That would be the final word on the subject, as it was published later, & is focused on the fundamental rules of the game (as opposed to MMV, which focused on monsters, & myopically at that).

Draken
2009-10-29, 11:15 AM
Well. Rules Compendium, page 118. Special Abilities.

To me it looks like it clearly states that Extraordinaire and Natural are different abilities.

Edit for quote:


EXTRAORDINARY ABILITIES
Extraordinary abilities arenít magical, though they might
break the laws of physics. These abilities canít be disrupted in
combat, as spells can, and they usually donít provoke attacks
of opportunity. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic
have no effect on extraordinary abilities. They arenít subject
to dispelling, and they function normally in an antimagic
field. Using an extraordinary ability is a free action unless
otherwise noted.
Extraordinary ability saving throw DC = 10 + 1/2 the
creatureís HD + the modifier for the ability score on which
the ability is based + other modifiers (often racial)


NATURAL ABILITIES
This category includes abilities a creature has because of
its physical nature, such as a birdís ability to fly. Natural
abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary,
supernatural, or spell-like. Theyíre rarely identified
as naturalóthatís assumedóand they rarely take a distinct
action to use. A lion uses its claws as an attack, for instance;
it doesnít activate its claws and then attack.

Akal Saris
2009-10-29, 12:06 PM
Cue Shakespeare.

Well played indeed sir.

Regarding the hobgoblin warsoul and the other 2 monsters in the MMV with the same ability, it has the spellcasting as an (Ex) ability because it was specifically bred to gain magical abilities, and they wanted to give it spell-casting tied to that. "Scores of hobgoblins exposed to this regimen
die hideous deaths, but those who survive become potent
spellcasters with magic in their veins." And also: "They consider those who gained arcane skill through study rather than ritual transformation to be lesser beings." So the Arcane Talent (Ex) ability is not the same as normal spell-casting.

Furthermore, normal spellcasting is still unlisted. From the same MMV, the hobgoblin duskblade can cast spells as a duskblade, but his duskblade spellcasting is not listed as (Ex). Other monsters with spellcasting in the MMV, such as the Jaebrin Trickster (a beguiler!), also have spellcasting without it being listed as an (Ex) ability.

In other words, arcane spell-casting is specifically not listed as (Ex) even when some creatures have the ability to cast spells spontaneously as a result of rituals. Even the duskblade and beguiler, both spontaneous casters, do not have it listed as (Ex) - so it is not (Ex). It is simply unlisted.

jiriku
2009-10-29, 12:16 PM
More to the point, even if you interpret generously, some extraordinary abilities are useless if gained for only a minute. You can cast wizard spells? Great, but you need a spellbook and at least 15 minutes to prepare even one spell. You get an animal companion? Nice, but the animal companion feature doesn't conjure an animal out of thin air, so your randomly chosen bear is going to have to hike to your location from somewhere nearby. He'll need a few minutes to get here.

Shhalahr Windrider
2009-10-29, 12:39 PM
One monster is an exception, not errata.
Indeed. Exceptions override general, only where that exception is concerned. In all other things, the general rule still applies. This monster example is no different than trying to claim that all feats are Supernatural because a few newer feats are.



Originally Posted by SRD
Natural Abilities

This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.
Uh, can I get a link to that? I don't think I've seen that in the SRD.

Or is it just "SRD" in the sense that it's part of that errata they they wanted us to pay for?

Even then, it still trumps the FAQ.

Fax Celestis
2009-10-29, 01:14 PM
Uh, can I get a link to that? I don't think I've seen that in the SRD.

Or is it just "SRD" in the sense that it's part of that errata they they wanted us to pay for?

Even then, it still trumps the FAQ.

This particular page. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm)

Shhalahr Windrider
2009-10-29, 01:49 PM
This particular page. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm)
Ah, yep. Must have been added after Rules Compendium came out. It's not on the version at Sovelior Sage (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/abilitiesAndConditions.html), which is the one I use. Guess d20SRD.org is more up to date in that respect.

(For some reason my Google site search of d20SRD.org to check for just that, failed, though. Now, it's turning up. Must have had a typo that I missed.)

ShadowsGrnEyes
2009-10-29, 02:05 PM
Ok seeing as your question got largley derailed by the dispute over what is EX I will list a few good abilities LISTED AS EX.

Warmage Edge: from a Warmage, int to spell damage woot

Energy Resistance: from a Favored Soul,

Ac Bonus, Suddent Strike, Trapfinding, Poison Use, Acrobatics, Speed Climb, Improved Poison Use, and Evasion: from a Ninja.

Skirmish, Battle Fortitude, Uncanny Dodge, Fast Movement, Trackless Step, Camoflauge, Blindsense, Hide in Plain Sight: From a Scout

Slippery Mind, Initiative Boost, Lurk Augment: from The Lurk. this one is pretty powerfull you should look at it.

Mettle: from Hexlabde

Pretty much everything a samurai has: From Samurai

Pretty much everything a swashbuckler has: from Swashbuckler.

Scales, Dragonkin, and Damage Reduction: from Dragonfire Adept

Elude Touch: from Wilder

Akal Saris
2009-10-29, 02:07 PM
I'm a big fan of the d20SRD.org version. It's better organized, easier to search, and you can roll the dice for monsters just by clicking their attack bonus or damage/saves/etc. Soo convenient!

Edit: oh, and my 3 picks of choice:

#1. Marshal auras. choosing from 6 minor and 4 major auras kicks ass, especially if your Cha is good.
#2. Improved Evasion (Monk or Rogue)
#3. Skill Mastery(Rogue)

The marshal and rogue abilities give huge flexibility, and improved evasion just comes in handy quite often, though Mettle is also great if the DM favors save-or-die spells.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-29, 02:15 PM
"Better organized" and "easier to search" is dubious, from the perspective of a Sovelior fan. And "Soo" isn't exactly endearing.

But pointlessly hostile snark aside, that is a useful feature. I never thought to click like that; assumed it would go to a definition of attacks and saves (which would still be useful). I'll have to look into it at home.

lesser_minion
2009-10-29, 02:21 PM
Spellcasting is Ex.

The fighter's entire Bonus Feat progression is Ex.

Neither of these are special abilities at all.

A class feature grants a special ability to characters with the appropriate class and level - the Aura of Courage class feature grants an extraordinary immunity to fear and the supernatural ability to grant allies a bonus on their saves against fear. A class feature is not itself a special ability, however.

The same thing goes for spellcasting. The spells themselves aren't extraordinary, so the factotum cannot gain them. The Factotum cannot gain the class feature itself, because it isn't actually a special ability.

Akal Saris
2009-10-29, 02:28 PM
"Better organized" and "easier to search" is dubious, from the perspective of a Sovelior fan. And "Soo" isn't exactly endearing.

But pointlessly hostile snark aside, that is a useful feature. I never thought to click like that; assumed it would go to a definition of attacks and saves (which would still be useful). I'll have to look into it at home.

Heh, sorry to trigger your pointlessly hostile snark :P I guess I could instead type "it's so handy" instead...but extending words for emphasis like soo or reaaally or waaay is the typing extension of the way I generally think or speak.

Zovc
2009-10-29, 02:34 PM
Spellcasting is Ex.

The fighter's entire Bonus Feat progression is Ex.

Sneak attack is Ex.

The monk's flurry of blows is Ex.

Lots of PrCs have good Ex abilities (think Dervish).

Rage is, of course, Ex.

Animal companions are (I believe) Ex.

Who needs Gestalt?

Zovc
2009-10-29, 02:38 PM
Oh! Libris Mortis has a bunch of Monster classes, most of them are 5-10 level classes, so you should be able to take any of their Ex abilities. I'm AFB, so I don't know if there's anything cool there.

sofawall
2009-10-29, 03:54 PM
Who needs Gestalt?

People who actually want all those abilities, for the most part.

Gametime
2009-10-29, 04:38 PM
More to the point, even if you interpret generously, some extraordinary abilities are useless if gained for only a minute. You can cast wizard spells? Great, but you need a spellbook and at least 15 minutes to prepare even one spell. You get an animal companion? Nice, but the animal companion feature doesn't conjure an animal out of thin air, so your randomly chosen bear is going to have to hike to your location from somewhere nearby. He'll need a few minutes to get here.

Moreover, the Animal Companion class feature doesn't even get you an Animal Companion unless you spend 24 hours meditating, etc. (Well, you can "begin play" with one, but since your factotum clearly ISN'T beginning play if he's already in play to use an ability, that doesn't seem to apply.)

Actually...based on a strict reading of the rules, you can't even get a new animal companion by meditating, since you never had the old companion to release from service/kill off.

Personally, I'm a fan of choosing Brains over Brawn to become exceptionally athletic for a minute per day. Yo dawg, etc. etc.

Vortling
2009-10-29, 05:21 PM
In case you don't have the miniatures handbook, WotC has helpfully provided the entire marshall class online for free here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b).

Korivan
2009-10-29, 05:42 PM
More to the point, even if you interpret generously, some extraordinary abilities are useless if gained for only a minute. You can cast wizard spells? Great, but you need a spellbook and at least 15 minutes to prepare even one spell. You get an animal companion? Nice, but the animal companion feature doesn't conjure an animal out of thin air, so your randomly chosen bear is going to have to hike to your location from somewhere nearby. He'll need a few minutes to get here.

This is exactly why I left out animal companion on my list. The first post wasn't a list of all of of the abilities, just the ones I thought were neat.

I don't really know if untyped abilities are EX, but I don't plan on even trying to get them to be in out games. So far, a number of the things that are "untyped" are pointless to use like this to me. For starters, we use the system from Never Winter Nights. After gaining a spell level, you have to rest, and then prepare it before it becomes avalible for use. Thats a minimum of 8 hours and change. Too long for my needs. Also, I'd rather use a wand of Heroics rather then use 4 inpiration points for a FBF. One lasts a minute, where the other is 10min/level.

Boci
2009-10-29, 05:46 PM
Personally, I'm a fan of choosing Brains over Brawn to become exceptionally athletic for a minute per day. Yo dawg, etc. etc.

Huh? Isn't that already a factotum class feature?

Also, whilst it may be untyped and not EX, how amny DMs would have a problem with SA or skirmish?

Indon
2009-10-29, 06:14 PM
Do Inspiration points allow for rerolls already? If not, you can use the Swashbuckler's "Lucky" class feature.

Hmm. Other people have mentioned all the other good ones I can think of.

Vexxation
2009-10-29, 06:30 PM
Huh? Isn't that already a factotum class feature?

Yeah, that's the point. Hence the "Yo dawg" part. It's a meme.

As in, "Yo dawg, I heard you like getting your Intelligence bonus to physical skills so I put Brains Over Brawn in your Cunning Brilliance so you can get your Intelligence bonus to physical skills while you get your Intelligence bonus to physical skills."