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Ilriyn
2009-10-29, 07:29 AM
Hey all,

I'm looking to create a dexterity based fighter for a game I am doing. I am wanting to know the best feats available for that route. I will also be playing with a strength penalty, so no power attack.

Thanks.

Kaiyanwang
2009-10-29, 07:36 AM
First and foremost: Fighter class, or any melee based on Dex?

And if Fighter Class, full fighter or multiclass is allowed?

Killer Angel
2009-10-29, 07:44 AM
How are you supposed to do damage, with a straight fighter without strenght? Are you planning a fighter (BAB and feats) / rogue (SA), or something else?
And, most of all... splatbooks allowed?

bosssmiley
2009-10-29, 07:44 AM
The Dex-based Errol Flynn/wuxia warrior niche in D&D is filled by the Rogue (and related PrCs), not by the tin-skin Fighter.

Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 3/Rogue X/Rogue Prc X

Merk
2009-10-29, 07:51 AM
Weapon Finesse is the most important, as it lets you add your Dex modifier to your melee attacks. You need to be using a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain. Take it right off the bat. Combat Reflexes will let you make multiple attacks of opportunity in a round, so take that as well. If you're interested in ranged fighting, then you should also take Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot, as well as any other feats in that family that interest you.

The Dodge and Combat Expertise families are both worth taking feats in. Dodge leads to Mobility and Spring Attack, and Combat Expertise will let you pull things like Improved Feint and Improved Trip.

Also look into Deflect Arrows (has Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite) to guard against some ranged attacks. Lightning Reflexes and Iron Will will help you shore up your weak saves.

You might want to put ranks into Tumble (and perhaps dip into Rogue for some skill points, as well as the sneak attack benefit), as that will give you certain AC bonuses in combat.

Finally, some non-core classes lend themselves better to the concept of a speedy but light warrior. Consider the Scout (Complete Adventurer), Swashbuckler (Complete Warrior), or the Swordsage (Tome of Battle).

MichielHagen
2009-10-29, 08:06 AM
I am currently building a dexterity based Swordsage.

Damage should not be much of a problem:
You use Shadow Blade to get dexterity to damage, you also get some Sneak Attack if you use Assassin's Stance. You can also use Greater Insightfull Strike as a damage output. Also there is the Stormguard Warrior feat, but i don't like the feeling of that one, but it is a very good damage output.
And then there are enough maneuvers that increase the normal damage you do.

You want a Shadow Hand weapon (it's a weapon Enhancement) possibly Fey-crafted if you want to save a feat (you dont need weapon finesse).

Tavar
2009-10-29, 08:16 AM
If you want, you can also use Champion of Corellon Larethian, from Races of the Wild, to get Dex to Damage. Note that Shadow Blade doesn't replace your Str with Dex, it adds your dex in addition to your str.

Kaiyanwang
2009-10-29, 08:16 AM
How are you supposed to do damage, with a straight fighter without strenght? Are you planning a fighter (BAB and feats) / rogue (SA), or something else?

Not fully optimized, but the first thing that could come in my mind with straight fighter would be increase the damage by means different from the Str and PA (like weapon Spec and further feats) combined with all the AOOs feats viable. Somehing like to obtain 3-6 AOOs every time the enemy does something (cast, move, use a supernatural ability and so on).

Further, you could have low str but high charisma so use fear effects.

Of course, if for fighter is inteded "fighting in melee PC" the Rogue/Swashbuckler with TWF, high crit range weapons and telling blow could be simple and viable.

Tavar
2009-10-29, 08:18 AM
Actually, I don't think anything prevents you from Power Attacking with a Finesse weapon: it's just that most of them aren't two handed, and thus not worth it. Think about getting either and Elvish Courtblade or a Spiked Chain.

Kaiyanwang
2009-10-29, 08:19 AM
Actually, I don't think anything prevents you from Power Attacking with a Finesse weapon: it's just that most of them aren't two handed, and thus not worth it. Think about getting either and Elvish Courtblade or a Spiked Chain.

True, but she said low Str. If for low Str you say Str < 13, no PA.

Killer Angel
2009-10-29, 08:21 AM
(snip)
Further, you could have low str but high charisma so use fear effects.

Of course, if for fighter is inteded "fighting in melee PC" the Rogue/Swashbuckler with TWF, high crit range weapons and telling blow could be simple and viable.

Yep, but at this point, it's important to know if the OP intend fighter = fighting in melee, and what are the manuals allowed in the campaign.


True, but she said low Str. If for low Str you say Str < 13, no PA.

She even spoke about "strenght penalty", so probably it's less than 10...

deuxhero
2009-10-29, 08:31 AM
Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 3/Rogue X/Rogue Prc X

Why not Rogue 3/Swashbuckler x +daring outlaw?

Person_Man
2009-10-29, 09:16 AM
Stock Fighter Advice

Fighter is actually quite a respectable choice up to ECL 12ish if you know what you're doing. The keys are alternate class features (forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-906113.html) and careful feat selection (see combos above).

At level 1, Fighters get the Tower Shield for free. This in itself is useful. Races of Stone also lets you trade it away for Exotic Shield Proficiency, which has several uses (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6848292). I suggest using it for a Gnome Battle Cloak, which is essentially a shield you wear on your back, which is essentially a free Animated shield. Or you can take the Extreme Shield if you want +3 AC without a To-Hit penalty (but don't care about making shield bash attacks). If you want a mounted build (which is one of your best core-ish options) then I suggest a Riding Shield.

At levels 2 and 6, Dungonscape lets you trade away feats for the Dungeoncrasher ability, which gives you massive damage when you Bull Rush an enemy into a wall or solid object. As others have opined, the easiest way to abuse this is through the Knockback feat. Check out Flaming Homer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4108954&postcount=22) and the King of Pong (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107248). If you want to be less abusive and/or don't want to be a Goliath, then I suggest you be a Raptorian or Dragonborn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1) for free flight (though it doesn't kick in until ECL 12). This lets you move above enemies, so that you can Bull Rush them into the floor. You can also get free Bull Rush attempts from the Shield of the Severed Hand (Complete Divine pg 102 or MIC) and/or Brutal Surge weapons (MIC). It's also worth mentioning that Dungeoncrasher damage is so high that even a single mundane Bull Rush per turn can kill most enemies.

At 2nd level or higher you can give up a Fighter bonus feat to gain the Resolute ability (Complete Champion). It allows you to immediately shift 1/2 your BAB to your Will Save. Hugely useful at mid to high levels, as Will Saves are often Save or Lose. Once you get to level 10 or higher I would definitely pick this one up, unless you can find some other form of mental protection.

A nifty web ad on (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) gives you various buffs to your ability to Demoralize. The most important kicks in at 11th level, which lets you Demoralize as a Swift Action. This can be a powerful tool (http://boards-test-dev.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-911167), especially when combined with the Imperious Command feat (Drow of the Underdark) which makes Demoralized enemies Cower (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Cowering).

Put that together, and you get respectable defense, strong offense, and two forms of battlefield control (Bull Rush and Fear). Pretty solid for any low to mid level melee build.


This Fighter build depends on high Str (to Bull Rush), and preferably has some method of getting big (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777#post7081777) to improve his opposed checks and ability to Intimidate. A Dex based Fighter build is far more problematic.

Aranii, if you can give us your attributes, level, books allowed, and build goals (what you want to do) and build parameters (strait Fighter, multiclass Fighter, Fighter/Prestige Class, any melee classes?) we could probably give you better advice.

Bosh
2009-10-29, 10:10 AM
Dex-based fighters:
http://downlode.org/Creative/Writing/Notebook/Illustrations/itsatrap.jpg

Flickerdart
2009-10-29, 10:17 AM
If you're set on Fighter, you could take the Thug and Sneak Attack fighter variants, which trade away your armour proficiencies above light and bonus feats for extra skill points and skills and Sneak Attack. With your Fighter BAB, you'll eventually get 4 attacks to apply SA damage to, at a higher to-hit than a Rogue. Get a flanking buddy (a real Rogue, perhaps) and go to town. You may consider dipping Rogue 2 for Evasion and even more skill points.

Hawk7915
2009-10-29, 10:24 AM
I have to echo previous sentiments that Rogue or Swashbuckler are what you want. A fighter with a strength penalty who is still in melee is gonna have issues (heck, he'll have issues at range too unless he uses a Crossbow).

There are two possible routes to go here; neither is optimal but if you are married to going fighter then:

Build One: Spike Chain tripper
1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain
F1: Weapon Finesse
F2: Combat Expertise
3: Improved Trip
4: Combat Reflexes

- From there, take stuff to optimize AoO, optimize flanking bonuses, optimize tripping/disarming, or just take Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec: Spiked Chain to help make up for your lousy strength.

Build Two: Parry the Defender: Nothing specific here, just crank AC through the roof with Combat Expertise, Total Defense actions, and feats that improve this. You could be a Quarterstaff guy and take that one Quarterstaff style feat from C.Warrior, I think you can Finesse a staff...this only really works if your DM lets you "tank" by being nice and preserving fun, rather than playing metagamey monsters who insta-gank the wizard. It's more successful for rogue, who can take Improved Feint and max bluff to make a Feint check, then take a Total Defense + full Expertise attack to hit the targets Flat-footed AC and deal Sneak Attack damage, but as I said with a kind DM you could make it work for straight fighter.

Telonius
2009-10-29, 10:27 AM
This (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter)may interest you.


Fighter

Some fighters prefer stealth and cunning over martial skill. This variant can also be combined with the thug variant.

Gain
Sneak attack (as rogue).

Lose
Bonus feats.

Basically it takes a Rogue, and trades skill points, Evasion, good Reflex save, Trap Sense, and the Rogue abilities; for full BAB, good Fort save, weapon and armor proficiencies, and higher HP. If you're determined to both have something with "Fighter" in the label as well as have a low Str and high Dex, this is probably going to be your best bet for doing damage and surviving.

Key feats would be Weapon Finesse, the TWF tree, EWP Courtblade ... and that's about all I've got.

Potential tricks to lessen the suckitude: 3 levels of Ranger for the skills and free feats, then go into the Horizon Walker PrC.

Possibly the Dervish PrC?

Incorrect
2009-10-29, 10:40 AM
I suggest forgetting about tripping, with a str penalty its going to be hard, even with the +4 from improved trip.

If you go the weapon finesse route and use light weapons Disarm and Sunder will be hard too.
You can attack with it in a grapple, but without str its hard to win the grapple check.

Positive things could be; plenty AOOs, dex to attack, and two weapon fighting, good ranged combat. Play up the good things

Tavar
2009-10-29, 10:47 AM
Unfortunately, TWF is a very hard style to use well, and requires some source of extra damage, generally SA. Ranged combat also relies on Str for damage. If you really have a penalty in str, perhaps you want to rethink melee combat.

Or play a druid.

Kaiyanwang
2009-10-29, 10:58 AM
Another way could be a "dodgey" fighter.

Probably this should be tweaked a little bit, but combining:

- Mobility + AOOs feats, in a way to avoid continuosly attacks

- High crit chance feats like Improved Critical + Staggering Critical from DotU

- Goad and similar feats

One could build a sort of swashbucking bastard not so able to be a great damage dealer but to render ineffective the enemies making them waste actions and attacks.

The big problem are the skills. Thugh from UA? And cityscape Web Enhancement?

If there is space, one could add ehinhander and cloack combat feats because are in character...

Of course, we are waiting for the answer of the OP :smallwink:

Person_Man
2009-10-29, 11:27 AM
You could also go for a Tiny But Deadly build (Underfoot Combat, Confound the Bigfolk). But that requires Iaijutsu Focus, Sneak Attack, or Test of Mettle to work well.

FMArthur
2009-10-29, 12:35 PM
Hit and Run Tactics from Drow of the Underdark seems made for dextrous fighters:
-give up heavy armor and tower shield proficiency
-gain +2 initiative and add your Dex to damage against flat-footed targets.

Actually, this is much weaker than I initially thought. I forget sometimes that flat-footed =/= denied dex to AC.

Volos
2009-10-29, 02:14 PM
Superior Weapon Finesse [Combat]
Prerequsite : Base Attack Bonus +6, Weapon Finesse
Allows you to use your Dex for the bonus to your damage rolls rather then Strength, but only with your Weapon Finesse weapon.

Not sure where I found it, but I used it in a campain a while back.

Ilriyn
2009-10-29, 03:47 PM
Alright, I should have been more specific when I asked. I actually won't be playing a fighter, but a melee combat based homebrew of mine. (Found Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129559))

I'll be going with the Dexterity and Charisma focuses. So I will already have my dex bonus added to my attack and damage without using feats. I will also already have improved feint.

The purpose of this thread was mostly to see what kind of feats would be best, and if there were any skills/tricks/whatevers that would help me out too.

All I have access to is the SRD, and crystal keep. I am restricted to being human, (No templates), and I would prefer staying within the core class and any PrCs for it. (I mentioned adding some in my latest post, if there are any class features from another class that I should have, perhaps they could go in one of the PrCs)

Thanks all.

Person_Man
2009-10-29, 03:53 PM
Superior Weapon Finesse [Combat]
Prerequsite : Base Attack Bonus +6, Weapon Finesse
Allows you to use your Dex for the bonus to your damage rolls rather then Strength, but only with your Weapon Finesse weapon.

Not sure where I found it, but I used it in a campain a while back.

It's a homebrew or 3rd party feat. Commonly requested, but it doesn't actually exist in any WotC source.

Magnor Criol
2009-10-29, 04:46 PM
Actually, I don't think anything prevents you from Power Attacking with a Finesse weapon: it's just that most of them aren't two handed, and thus not worth it. Think about getting either and Elvish Courtblade or a Spiked Chain.

Besides probably not being able to qualify for PA, there is this:

If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies.

Emphasis mine. Most finesse weapons are, of course, light weapons.

Tavar
2009-10-29, 06:09 PM
Besides probably not being able to qualify for PA, there is this:


Emphasis mine. Most finesse weapons are, of course, light weapons.

Hence me listing the Spiked Chain and Elven Courtblade, both of which are both Finessable and two-handed.:smallwink: