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View Full Version : Of warblades, archivists, and sorcerers



Roderick_BR
2009-10-29, 10:06 AM
Hiya. Just wanted to ask people's opinion on these classes.
I'm gonna DM an online game, and was thinking about doing some house rules:
Replace fighters with warblades (battles here are shorter and much more lethal).
Replace clerics with archivists (the gods have no direct participation here, so the races found an alternative for spells wizards can't use)

What you people think of these? My party is not optmized, they prefer the rule of cool, so I think the warblade would be a bit too strong. I was thinking about nerfing him a bit (like lowering the HD), but overal, would it be interesting for a series of short games?

For Archivist, I feel he's like a Cloistered Cleric variant, with a book. While I want to keep him more mage-ish, I was thinking about enhancing his HD a bit (back d8), while restricting his spell list (no paladin/ranger/druid spells), but putting his spellcasting stat Wisdom, like clerics. I just really want a book-user styled divine spellcaster. Even then, overal, how much different he is from playing a cleric?

Then, I was looking at the sorcerer. He's a wizard that uses charisma, and have no book. Since I made the "cleric" be a studied caster as well, I thought, why not make the sorcerer go all out magic-y?
Would it be too unbalanced to give the sorcerer full access to the cleric's spell list? Even more, allow him to learn an equal number of wizards and cleric spells based on his spells known/level list? He would still use his spells/day slots list, and be limited on how many spells he can learn on maximum, compared to a wizard or archivist.

Everything else is pretty much unchanged, with a few changes:
Druids are NPC only. Paladins will be a PrC variant, and probably NPC only. Monk will be replaced for some feats characters can get to play unarmed (all others abilities can be emulated by a warblade or rogue). Bard I'll play a bard/marshal magic-less variant I may play only for laughs with my group and to playtest it. I may make the sorcerer NPC only too.
Everything else is the same.

jiriku
2009-10-29, 10:30 AM
1) Replacing figher with warblade is a good thing, but the warblade is weaker than either the archivist or the sorcerer. No need to nerf it.

2) The archivist is built to use Int. Basing its spellcasting on Wis and reducing its spells known would constitute a nerf. However, the archivist is the most powerful of the three classes you're considering, so the nerf probably wouldn't ruin party balance.

3) Doubling the sorcerer's spells known and giving access to the cleric list would cause its power to balloon grotesquely like some sort of explosive munchkin cancer. Definitely avoid that.

Vizzerdrix
2009-10-29, 10:45 AM
You could swap out the UA generic caster for sorc.

Roderick_BR
2009-10-29, 11:47 AM
Alright then. Good points. Archivists are that powerful? Hmm. Thanks.

Ok. Sorcerer + divine spells + expanded spells known = Bad. Got it. The UA generic caster sounds good, though I may just give the sorcerer divine spells (no expanded spells known) and I'd get something close to it.

To tell the truth, I wanted to make it like this: Wisdom = divine/preparation/book, Int = arcane/preparation/book, Cha = special/divine/arcane/expontaenous/no book.

But you're right. Since I'm expanding his spell selection, I don't need to expand his spells known.

Leon
2009-10-29, 12:01 PM
For Archivist, I feel he's like a Cloistered Cleric variant, with a book. While I want to keep him more mage-ish, I was thinking about enhancing his HD a bit (back d8), while restricting his spell list (no paladin/ranger/druid spells), but putting his spellcasting stat Wisdom, like clerics. I just really want a book-user styled divine spellcaster. Even then, overal, how much different he is from playing a cleric?


You may aswell just play a Cloistered Cleric as the only thing left that is different really is the Dark Knowledge
And you can get close that that with Lore and Choice selection of Knowledge Skills, plus Its a Cleric so it gets the option to use Turn Undead for what ever purpose you need it for (dont know how many ppl use it for its intended use anymore with all the meta magic things for it...)

Its very much different from playing a Cleric in its base state - the Breadth of options is its power.
The Dark Knowledge is just the icing on the cake

Milskidasith
2009-10-29, 12:07 PM
I think increasing sorcerers spells known wouldn't be bad. Just keep it on the sorcerer/wizard list, and maybe give it a total of two more spells known per level, in the end.

Haven
2009-10-29, 12:13 PM
Have you taken a look at Favored Soul? They're basically the divine answer to Sorcerers, and sound like what you're looking for with your Sorcerer idea. You'd probably have to change some of the fluff if the gods aren't directly participating, but otherwise it could work.

Woodsman
2009-10-29, 12:31 PM
Have you taken a look at Favored Soul? They're basically the divine answer to Sorcerers, and sound like what you're looking for with your Sorcerer idea. You'd probably have to change some of the fluff if the gods aren't directly participating, but otherwise it could work.

It could be that instead of a direct connection to their gods, they just have an innate talent for divine magic. Sounds like a sorcerer.

Of course, the Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization bits would need to be tweaked.

Roderick_BR
2009-10-29, 02:10 PM
I know about the favored soul. Wouldn't be hard to use him, but then again, I'd rather have only one cha-based/expontaneous caster. Maybe I'm looking at something like a base class mysthic theurge, and since sorcerer already have some casting rules different from the wizard, I thought I could use him. The sorcerer could cherry pick which spells he wants from each list, true, but he can't learn even half of each list alone, so I don't think it's too bad (remembering that a lot of people think the mystic theurge is weak because he can't cast 9th level spells from both lists).
To make things interesting, the sorcerer doesn't gain his spells, rather, he needs to learn them. He can learn spells from any scroll/spellbook/prayerbook/others casters, as normal. He just doesn't instantly learn them when he levels up.
Spellcraft can be Wis-based for archivists and Cha-based for sorcerers.

Lemme get some more of my scenario explained. It's a sorta dark world, whitout shinny paladins running amok, and the gods doen't give magic powers to their followers.
To use magic, humanity (and others races) study ancient scriptures and rituals, and registering their finds in their tomes (prayer and spell books).
Archivists tap into the higher planes, and can shape this power into their spells. Due to it's nature, divine magic works better for some kind of spells (cleric spell list)
Wizards tap into the world's raw magical energies, shaping it into more direct effects, but lacking the more "subtle" uses of divine magic (wizards spell list)
Sorcerers carry this innate gift to tap into both streams, and expontaneously channel them through their bodies and mind (access to both lists and spontaneous spellcasting).
Scenario-wise, they should be rare. Rules-wise, I want them to be playable but not too powerful, since their power is only limited by their personal mortal limits, that they train to grow out of (class level).
I keep hearing that sorcerers are weak compared to wizards due to: less spells known, slow metamagic, no "class features". I'm increasing the list from which he gets his (limited) spell selection. I did see that doubling his spells known would make him a bit powerful, so I'm just allowing him to learn more spells. Also, people say that the mystic theurge, that do have access to both spell lists, is weak, and even saw some variants out there to give him access to 9th level spells. This sorcerer is just that.
Ideally, his spells are not arcane nor divine, but something in-between.

If I work out more ideas, I'll move it to the homebrew section. My main questions were more about the archivists anyway. Thank you all for the suggestions.

Volos
2009-10-29, 02:18 PM
Doubling up spell lists is always a bad idea. Even giving him the choice between so many of this or so many of that is a horrible idea. Giving a sorcerer access to a Bard's list wouldn't be that bad. That is if you're looking for party support and healing, Bard's have that **** down.

jiriku
2009-10-29, 02:38 PM
A combo arcane/divine base class is a reasonable idea, and your decision to limit both spells known and the acquisition of new spells is a smart way to make sure the class stays under control. A limited spells known list means the character must way heavy trade-offs, and requiring him to find each spell in the game world allows you to individually say "yes" or "no" to each new spell.

To use this idea to the best, avoid "spell book shops" where players can drop by to pick up any spell on demand. Each spell they find has to be picked up as treasure or exchanged from an NPC with you consenting that the NPC has the spell and is willing to sell access to it. That way you can control when players gain access to key travel spells like fly, teleport, and plane shift and key divinations like scrying, divination, and discern location. I have personally hosed a great many otherwise-good adventures by having a key travel or divination spell available to me that the DM hadn't taken into consideration when designing the adventure.