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imp_fireball
2009-10-30, 02:49 AM
Zeus being the god of lightening and Hades being the god of crops and lord of the underworld, etc., etc.?

This is based on the actual real world ancient lore about Zeus and Hades.

Argeus
2009-10-30, 02:53 AM
Which one are we talking about here? The Disney version or the Greek Mythos version?

- Disney:
+ Zeus: Lawful Good/Lawful Neutral
+ Hades: Chaotic Evil
Because it's Disney.

- Mythology:
+ Zeus: Lawful Neutral/Chaotic Neutral, depending on interpretation. When he's the King of Gods he's the lawful big daddy out there, but when he's down there flirting and sleeping with mortal women... Duuuude...
+ Hades: Lawful Neutral. By far, since they always say that everyone's equal in death, so that pretty much makes Hades THE most lawful out there, even further compounded by the fact that he doesn't appear much.

SilverSheriff
2009-10-30, 03:25 AM
moral of the story: Disney destroys everything, on-top of hiding Cyborg Walt Disney so he can continue to feast on the flesh of children from third-world countries.

Also:

Hades was also a Deity of Wealth.

Bogardan_Mage
2009-10-30, 04:05 AM
Which one are we talking about here? The Disney version or the Greek Mythos version?
Why would we be talking about the Disney version? Even if the OP hadn't specifically said "real world ancient lore" why assume Disney?

According to Deities & Demigods, Chaotic Good and Neutral Evil respectively. These are the listed alignments, but I'm not sure they are backed up by the (reasonably accurate) fluff, for instance it stresses that Hades is "not particularly malicious and hateful" and generally attributes to him an attitude to his portfolio closer to neutral than to evil.

deuxhero
2009-10-30, 06:43 AM
- Mythology:
+ Zeus: Lawful Neutral/Chaotic Neutral, depending on interpretation. When he's the King of Gods he's the lawful big daddy out there, but when he's down there flirting and sleeping with mortal women... Duuuude...
.

I think the "forcible" under the modern morality the alignment system (seems) to be designed under makes Zeus fall closer to "evil" than "neutral".

Calmar
2009-10-30, 07:49 AM
I think the "forcible" under the modern morality the alignment system (seems) to be designed under makes Zeus fall closer to "evil" than "neutral".

That's the reason why guys like Platon aren't fans of myths where the gods act immoral, as well. :smallwink:

Zaydos
2009-10-30, 08:16 AM
Ultimately Zeus is probably True Neutral with some evil tendencies (he ate his first wife Metis to keep her from giving birth to a son). What good he does is simply to maintain his own position as king of the gods, and he is only lawful enough to maintain that rule. Even then it is by fear, as shown when the other gods do decide to band together and tie him up in his sleep they comment on being unsure whether they should do this as Zeus is stronger than all of them combined. There are some myths where he does act as moral arbiter to men but in most of these he is creating a double standard where men must be good but the gods are allowed to be however bad they want, which is a fairly lawful evil action strangely enough. Based purely on real world myths it is probably easiest to present Zeus as neutral with a larger tendency towards evil than good, which actually saddens me since I loved the myths as a child.

Hades is actually a little harder. He's definitely lawful, but except for Persephone he doesn't do anything Evil. He is mean, he is dour, but unless you have a reason to be there he won't try and get you so I'd say lawful neutral with again a greater tendency towards evil than good.

Also the 3e Deities and Demigods is horrible as far as fluff goes which is rather laughable since they had real world myths to run off. The 2e Legends and Lore got the fluff better. Although they ignored/contradicted some common myths they did so by getting some obscure ones right. [/tangent]

Myth nut, sorry.

Lapak
2009-10-30, 08:30 AM
*snip*
Myth nut, sorry.I think you have the Greek gods pegged just right. On the good/evil scale, they are pretty much universally Neutral with Evil tendencies. All of them tend to be more concerned with their own interests first and anyone else second, and actually putting yourself against any of them (intentionally or not) gets you smacked down hard, but for the most part they don't really care. They're a bit more spread out on the Law/Chaos scale, though. Hades is definitely Lawful, Aphrodite and Eros Chaotic, Hera Lawful, Ares Chaotic, Athena Lawful, Artemis and Hephaestus probably Neutral...

Mulletmanalive
2009-10-30, 09:35 AM
Most of the time, the gods of olympus behave like people, with serious bratty tendencies.

I think all of them are Neutral [a bit of everything] with Evil tendencies. I think Scion has them down pretty well, in that it has their pantheon being so busy messing with humans and each other and declaring their own importance that they managed to miss the fact that the titans had gotten out until Gaia was breathing down their necks...

Lysander
2009-10-30, 09:46 AM
The best way to determine their alignment is to determine their portfolio's alignment. Is wisdom good or evil? Is the sun good or evil? Is the afterlife good or evil? Are storms good or evil?

Take the view that everything in nature is governed by a sentient being. If a natural force is there specifically to help mortal creatures (the sun, wisdom, spring) it's good. If it's there to hurt them (war, discord) it's evil. If it can do both or does neither (storms, oceans, love, afterlife) it's neutral.

Tengu_temp
2009-10-30, 09:53 AM
Zeus is a huge, spoiled brat with godly powers who does what he wants and doesn't care about anyone else, harming them to get what he wants and often just for the lulz. Neutral evil, maybe chaotic evil.

Hades is lawful neutral - he did one mean thing, but that's not enough to shift his alignment towards evil, and apart from that he's one of the most dependable and non-assholish Greek gods.

In Forgotten Realms, Zeus is Talos and Hades is Kelemvor, only with much more important roles in the pantheon.

Solaris
2009-10-30, 09:59 AM
Zeus is a huge, spoiled brat with godly powers who does what he wants and doesn't care about anyone else, harming them to get what he wants and often just for the lulz. Neutral evil, maybe chaotic evil.

I'd go CE. He just has really good PR.


Hades is lawful neutral - he did one mean thing, but that's not enough to shift his alignment towards evil, and apart from that he's one of the most dependable and non-assholish Greek gods.

Definitely. Even with the one mean thing he did, it wasn't that mean. He just kidnapped Persephone, not raped her, and he did agree to let her go for half the year.

Primal Fury
2009-10-30, 10:08 AM
Well... there are plenty of sculptures, paintings, and poems dealing with that very subject that are entitled The Rape of Persephone, or at the very least heavily imply it. Even then it depends on which cause you attribute that to. Hades coulda just did it, or it could be that whole deal with Cupid. Either way, I'd still say Hades was still Lawful Neutral, with slight tendencies towards Evil in the first case.

Telonius
2009-10-30, 10:31 AM
I'd peg most of the Greek/Roman pantheon as LN, true Neutral, or CN. Possible exceptions: Hestia (possibly LG), Eris (probably CN, but possibly CE), some of the muses (possibly CG).

Lapak
2009-10-30, 10:32 AM
Definitely. Even with the one mean thing he did, it wasn't that mean. He just kidnapped Persephone, not raped her, and he did agree to let her go for half the year.Um. He kidnapped her and forced her to marry him, which certainly sounds like rape to me. He imprisons her for half of all eternity in the Underworld as his queen.

He's certainly the most Lawful of the Greek gods (though not absolutely, unalterably so; Orpheus convinced him to bend a bit) and other than this one event he doesn't (for the most part) engage in actively maliciously behavior like most of them, but that one act and its follow-up was most certainly evil.

Golden-Esque
2009-10-30, 11:08 AM
Zeus being the god of lightening and Hades being the god of crops and lord of the underworld, etc., etc.?

This is based on the actual real world ancient lore about Zeus and Hades.

According to Deities and Demigods, Zeus is Chaotic Good and Hades is Neutral Evil.

Zeus doesn't care much for laws or rule, but he's a generally good person who cares for mortals. Hades is relatively indifferent, but Disney tacked on an Evil Template to him. Personally, I use Hades as true Neutral in my Campaign; he's indifferent death, nothing more, nothing less.

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-10-30, 11:12 AM
Zeus: NE>TN, Dionysus brought about a change in Zeus. Began to soften the tyrant up some.

Poseidon: CE, he might as well be a god of maritime barbarians and The Hulk.

Hades: LN, he is the least offensive of the original three despite how his youngest brother took the domain that what was rightfully his and treated him as little more than a potential enemy ever since.

Apollo: LN, dude was called the lawgiver. He's Mechanus in a box. His one evil act was to trick his sister into firing off a headshot on a guy she was with who he felt wasn't worthy of her.

Hermes: CN, he's essentially the bastard love-child of Fharlanghn and Olidammara.

Ares: CN/CE, he's impulsive and makes young men eager for battle. Hard to tell if that makes him evil, or just a victim of an excess of testosterone.

Hephaestus: LN, he's a loner craftsman. I can't recall much about him at the moment aside from the fact that Aphrodite walked all over him.

Dionysus: CN/CE, depending on your view, he was either an empowering force for women or just an overgrown frat boy.

Artemis: CN/CE, she's to the forest what Poseidon is to the sea, in terms of her impulsiveness. One the one hand, she's the avatar of the women's movement. On the other, she could be absolutely merciless. Hard to pin her down on the G/N/E scale.

Athena: LN, Athena is the goddess of strategy and a craftswoman. She also curb stomped Ares when it came to the Trojan war. Pulling a Leeroy against her is doomed to failure.

Hestia: LN, the goddess of the hearth is the lawful counterpart to Hermes. Both are communicators, but where one is a improvising scamp, the other is an orderly maintainer of the peace.

Hera: LE, good grief was this one evil. Zeus deserved her.

Demeter: TN, the maternal spirit fused with the mentality of doing what works.

Persephone: TN, she's really whatever people need her to be though.

Aphrodite: CN, she and Ares were both gods of impulsive passion.

someonenonotyou
2009-10-30, 11:17 AM
Hades TN all the way

Zeus i say is CG i mean yes he messes up but over all he tries to be good

Also arnt we NOT suppose to talk about religion here

The Tygre
2009-10-30, 11:24 AM
Well... there are plenty of sculptures, paintings, and poems dealing with that very subject that are entitled The Rape of Persephone, or at the very least heavily imply it. Even then it depends on which cause you attribute that to. Hades coulda just did it, or it could be that whole deal with Cupid. Either way, I'd still say Hades was still Lawful Neutral, with slight tendencies towards Evil in the first case.

Well, you have to realize that 'rape' didn't always mean, well, RAPE. Indeed, rape used to also be an old term for 'capture' or 'theft'. Hence, the Rape of Persephone, or the Rape of Helen. This serves a bit of mythological importance; myths depend just as much on the storyteller and their perspectives. As such, if you want to paint Hades as a sympathetic figure, then it is the capture of Persephone. But if you want to depict him as a monster, then it is the Rape of Persephone. See?

Although, I think we can all agree that Zeus was an *******. But there are two sides to Zeus. There's the side we know, the petty human, wanton and destructive, but there's also a more deist side representing the whole of the divine, having in more in common with Abramic God, ominiscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. He had different aspects for different people; one for kings, one for workers, one for soldiers, even one for thieves. It is possible the two aspects were in fact two separate gods. It would not be unusual; some Mythologists believe that there were two separate Aphrodites.

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-10-30, 11:28 AM
Zeus i say is CG i mean yes he messes up but over all he tries to be good


O_o

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Zeus is anything but good. His good deeds were primarily side-effects of looking after his own best interests.

Dienekes
2009-10-30, 12:05 PM
Zeus is true Neutral. He is lawful when it serves his purposes, he is chaotic when he feels little hard will come of it. He's a total monster sometimes, he's a caring father and protector figure at others. Generally for all the terrible things Zeus did there are other stories of him being generally helpful.

Hades Lawful Neutral-Good. He's fair. The only thing that really was a point against him was to kidnap his wife cause he was so lonely. Which was generally seen as a social acceptable for the time. Sure he can be grumpy at times and not helpful but I cannot think of any single thing that seems truly evil (accept of course, the then social acceptable kidnapping)

It's kinda hard to fit these folk into the alignment system since our alignments and there's are completely different.

AstralFire
2009-10-30, 12:23 PM
Zaydos pretty much has the topic nailed down - I'll just add that as Greece got older, there was a slight tendency to increase the 'Good' aspects of Zeus, Dionysus, Athene and Apollo.

Jergmo
2009-10-30, 12:45 PM
Let's simplify everything.

Every deity of the Greek pantheon is Neutral Magnificent Bastard with Petty, ***hole tendencies.

(And Zeus is the king of Magnificent Bastards)

Mewtarthio
2009-10-30, 12:58 PM
Zeus doesn't care much for laws or rule, but he's a generally good person who cares for mortals.

Sorry, what was that again?


he's a generally good person who cares for mortals.

...Are we talking about the same Zeus here? The Zeus whose main hobby is having affairs with mortal women, with or without their consent? The Zeus who once chained a guy to a rock where an eagle would eat his constantly regenerating liver every day for all eternity? The Zeus who sits idly by while his jealous wife kills his ex-lovers and torments his illegitimate children? That Zeus?

Jergmo
2009-10-30, 01:09 PM
...Are we talking about the same Zeus here? The Zeus whose main hobby is having affairs with mortal women, with or without their consent? The Zeus who once chained a guy to a rock where an eagle would eat his constantly regenerating liver every day for all eternity? The Zeus who sits idly by while his jealous wife kills his ex-lovers and torments his illegitimate children? That Zeus?

Like I said, King of Magnificent Bastards.

The Demented One
2009-10-30, 01:11 PM
Zeus seems to range from Lawful Good to Chaotic Neutral, depending on which myths you're talking about. In, say, the Aeneid, he's pretty much a fair arbiter among the gods and the source of all justiceľand then you've got the Zeus who goes around boinking anything he can.

Hades is pretty straight-up-the-line Lawful Neutral, if you overlook the indiscretion with Persephone.

Zaydos
2009-10-30, 01:11 PM
...Are we talking about the same Zeus here? The Zeus whose main hobby is having affairs with mortal women, with or without their consent? The Zeus who once chained a guy to a rock where an eagle would eat his constantly regenerating liver every day for all eternity? The Zeus who sits idly by while his jealous wife kills his ex-lovers and torments his illegitimate children? That Zeus?

You forgot to mention that the guy he chained to a rock helped him in the war against the titans (despite being a titan himself), was the person in Greek myth that actually cared about humanity, and Zeus did this because he bettered humanity's standard of living.

Which just helps further your point.


Zeus seems to range from Lawful Good to Chaotic Neutral, depending on which myths you're talking about. In, say, the Aeneid, he's pretty much a fair arbiter among the gods and the source of all justiceľand then you've got the Zeus who goes around boinking anything he can.

Yeah most of the Greek gods come off as closer to LG in the Roman myths. I've gotten used to distinguishing Jupiter and Zeus for this reason because they do act differently. Just looking at Roman myths you could make a fairly good argument for a lawful and good Jupiter. I like the Roman Jupiter better actually. Note also: Roman Juno (Hera) is much less jealous and more regal than the Greek Hera who mostly just tormented Hercules.

Jergmo
2009-10-30, 01:20 PM
The Greek goddesses also go out of their way to turn every exceptionally beautiful woman in the world except maybe Helen into horrific monsters.

The Harpies and Gorgons? Used to be drop-dead gorgeous.

Lysander
2009-10-30, 01:20 PM
The Greek Gods do act pretty callous to mortals, but how well did you treat that cow in the last hamburger you ate? Humans are regarded like clever animals (which is a pretty accurate description).

deuxhero
2009-10-30, 01:21 PM
Apollo: LN, dude was called the lawgiver. He's Mechanus in a box. His one evil act was to trick his sister into firing off a headshot on a guy she was with who he felt wasn't worthy of her.

Didn't Apollo... attempt something with a Satyr (or was it a Centar?)?

ericgrau
2009-10-30, 01:22 PM
I'm going to go with true neutral for most gods, or slight law/chaos variations thereof. Even Homer criticizes the humanity of their morals a bit.


The Greek Gods do act pretty callous to mortals, but how well did you treat that cow in the last hamburger you ate?
Except they also weren't the greatest towards each other either. It's like a mythical soap opera. When I say "true neutral" above by no means do I mean they are neither good nor evil nor lawful nor chaotic. More like a little of everything, but nothing all that much.

The Demented One
2009-10-30, 01:24 PM
Didn't Apollo... attempt something with a Satyr (or was it a Centar?)?
Apollo comes off as pretty Neutral Good-to-Chaotic Neutral in the Metamorphoses, with the whole Daphe bit. And I'm not sure he's ever anything like a "Lawgiver."

Zaydos
2009-10-30, 01:31 PM
Let's see Apollo...
Gave music
Prophecy at Delphi (after taking Delphi from Gaia because her giant snake ate his mom I believe)
Healing
Not sure about "Law"

Honestly he was one of the more likable gods, he did have a knack for chasing women who didn't want him (the nymph Daphne being the most notable), and could cause plague if you made him angry (this happens to Agamemnon's forces in the Iliad when Agamemnon takes the daughter of Apollo's priest as his slave) but even then was one of the nicer gods.
Lawful? Not really.
Good? Arguably.
Chaotic? Possibly.
Evil? Less so than most Greek gods (he has his moments, Orion, arguably Daphne).

Falconer
2009-10-30, 01:59 PM
Honestly, the Greek gods are actually very complex, especially when there are differing myths and portrayals and how, as time when on, the Greek gods took a more Good-ish turn.

Apollo, for example, was easily one of the most popular gods (in some traditions even being portrayed as the head of the pantheon, or as the only god). He was the god of poetry, philosophy, medicine, and quite a few other things generally thought of as good.

Yet there's also a myth in which he and his sister destroyed two cities and killed all of their inhabitants because they were wicked (though through the Greeks' eyes the cities' being evil may have made it somewhat ok); but even by D&D's "if-it-pings-as-evil-kill-it" morality, that's a rather extreme solution.

So yeah, it's actually pretty hard to assign a consistent alignment to them; you have deities traditionally seen as "good" doing terrible things (i.e. Zeus, Apollo, etc.) and then you have gods traditionally seen as "evil" doing good things (i've read that Cronus was fair and good to humanity, though rather nasty to his own family)

Elves-as-People
2009-10-30, 02:18 PM
There are vitally important differences between Greek and Roman myth, because contrary to popular belief, they are not the same. Polytheistic religions as a whole often open to debate among worshippers and between sects, and the variance within Greece is also a factor of convolution that I won't get into (as the previous post covered it pretty well) The Latins had previous religious beliefs which merged with Greek ones but were not wholly overwritten. Roman intellectuals sometimes postulated that all gods were the same, which presented themselves differently to each culture according to circumstance. (Similarly, many Druids believed all interpretations of the divine were wrong because noone was truly wise enough to understand the universe in its entirety).

Clear examples:
Mars LN/LG - Ares CN/CE
Mars was a protector of Rome - Ares made young men blood crazy
Think FR's Helm vs FR's Garagos, and you've got a better idea of how different the views of these deities could be.
In general, applying the D&D alignment system, Roman gods would be more consistently lawful, and somewhat more consistently good, than Greek deities, as the Greeks were much more afraid of their gods than the Romans were. Obviously, cultural diffusion blurred these differences to various degrees at various points in ancient Mediterranean history. Another interesting, but somewhat tangential fact, is that many Egyptian deities are known in English today by their Greek names, as the comparatively more benevolent Isis became popular among many Hellenic peoples.

Athaniar
2009-10-30, 02:22 PM
The Greek Gods do act pretty callous to mortals, but how well did you treat that cow in the last hamburger you ate?
I most likely didn't ever meet the cow or cows that provided the hamburger meat. Also, I agree with Hadrian's alignments, but Ares is definitely CE. He was, after all, the god of bloodlust and violence, the Erythnul of Greek myth.

The Tygre
2009-10-30, 02:49 PM
I mostl likely didn't ever meet the cow or cows that provided the hamburger meat. Also, I agree with Hadrian's alignments, but Ares is definitely CE. He was, after all, the god of bloodlust and violence, the Erythnul of Greek myth.

Probably worse off. It's generally acknowledged that Ares had no temples, cities, or actual full time worshippers. The only reason anyone ever prayed to Are was to keep him away. I don't think even the Spartans worshiped him, and they were just plain brutal. My current theory is that he may not have even originally been a god. He seems more like his children Eres or Phobos, an anthopomorphization of an abstract military concept. Even the other Gods didn't tolerate him. The only reason Aphrodite hung out with him was because he must have been a beast in the sack. I recall one section from the Iliad where Ares suffers a cut, one cut, barely a nick of the skin. The might war god's response: He goes home and cries to Zeus. I don't mean that as an exaggeration, either. Literally, tears pouring down his cheeks, he leaves the Trojan War, runs up Olympus and tattles on whatever warrior hurt him (I think it might have been Ajax) to Zeus. Zeus heals the wound, and says, and this straight from the Iliad, mind you;
"Now go away, I hate you."

Yeah, Mars is definitely better. No contest.

The Mentalist
2009-10-30, 03:07 PM
Diomedes actually was the one that turned Ares into a whiny little *beep*

Zaydos
2009-10-30, 03:11 PM
Sparta. Ares was there patron god. We generally get the Athenian version of the myth, though, so we get a biased idea. That said Ares is definitely chaotic evil, and as the Athenian is the only version we ever get it's what we have to run on for the rest.

Even so when I wanted to make a war god I actually based it off of a combination Hextor-Mars-Ares and came up with a LE one named Enyalius (a Spartan name I found on Wikipedia for Ares or another lesser war god). Oddly enough I had Ares in there too as a cowardly, warmonger (as opposed to a powerful, cunning, and empire building warmonger), they might be related in world (its myths hinted at it, but Ares's heritage was uncertain to mortals). I combined a lot of myth systems and just made stuff up too so I ended up further and further from the actual roots (especially with Shinto).

The Tygre
2009-10-30, 03:20 PM
Diomedes actually was the one that turned Ares into a whiny little *beep*

Right, sorry. Been a while since I took my Classics class.

Athaniar
2009-10-30, 03:42 PM
I think I prefer Xenaverse Ares.

Dienekes
2009-10-30, 03:46 PM
Yeah, Mars is definitely better. No contest.

And Odin is even better. As far as war gods go, Ares is... yeah...

Also, I find it amusing that the Spartans, whose culture, while brutal mind you, actually looked down upon wrathful bloodlust, and running from battle no matter what your condition is. Yet their patron was the god that did both these things

(though we do know they also had temples to Athena and Artemis, but still)

Zaydos
2009-10-30, 04:25 PM
And Odin is even better. As far as war gods go, Ares is... yeah...

Now Odin is epic. Not really good aligned by D&D's standards despite the alignment in Deities and Demigods. Then again Thor was invoked in the making of laws and their enforcement and is marked down as Chaotic, and Tyr (the goody-two shoes of the bunch who gave up a hand to save a pack of people who then laughed at him for it) is lawful neutral.

Roland St. Jude
2009-10-30, 05:03 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: This is not a homebrew topic for starters. Second, as the OP notes, this is about real world religion, which is an inappropriate topic on this forum (regardless of the era of religion being discussed). I won't get into the apparent modern worship of these "ancient" gods. Suffice it to say that discussion of real world deities is plainly not allowed here.